Results 91 to 120 of 196
Thread: Vancian magic
-
2020-12-27, 12:26 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2019
-
2020-12-27, 12:45 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2008
- Location
- Trapped in England
- Gender
Re: Vancian magic
-
2020-12-27, 12:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2020
-
2020-12-27, 12:50 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2020
Re: Vancian magic
Aside from what Scots Dragon has said, can you propose another existing magic system that does mirror these (variable, depending on author and world) systems better but doesn't have other balance or bookkeeping issues?
Neither mana- (or other pool) or skill-based magic have really proven themselves to be particularly better in this regard, to choose two of the biggest 'competitors'.
-
2020-12-27, 12:57 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2008
- Location
- Trapped in England
- Gender
-
2020-12-27, 01:11 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2019
Re: Vancian magic
That's why I said that it "can be considered a drawback". It's obviously not an objective one, but the fact that Vancian magic doesn't work how a lot of people are used to magic working can cause issue with it. The feeling expressed by both myself and others that Vancian magic feels "unrealistic" is probably at least in part because of that.
As already stated, the "fire and forget" aspect is very central to Vancian magic but very much not the case in a lot of other magic system. Hence, anything that doesn't include that is likely closer. There can still be any number of differences or similarities, of course, but I do think this is a big one.
The degree of balance and book keeping obviously varies from system to system but it's not like Vancian magic is some sort of unbeatable bastion in either regard.
-
2020-12-27, 03:35 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2011
Re: Vancian magic
It's a good thing, for those who feel that Vancian does not represent the type of magic they want to emulate that, starting at least as far back as 2e, D&D has had alternate casting systems, either replacing Vancian magic on primary casters, or providing alternate mayhap classes with different mechanics.
Last edited by Quertus; 2020-12-27 at 03:36 PM.
-
2020-12-27, 04:07 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2008
- Location
- Trapped in England
- Gender
-
2020-12-27, 04:23 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2006
- Location
Re: Vancian magic
I would say that a rough approximation of Dresden Files magic can be achieved with magic point systems. Just call it will. A system for preparing spells and storing will in items would fill it out.
-
2020-12-27, 04:30 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2008
- Location
- Trapped in England
- Gender
-
2020-12-27, 05:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2006
- Location
-
2020-12-27, 06:16 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2016
Re: Vancian magic
"If you want to understand biology don't think about vibrant throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology" -Richard Dawkins
Omegaupdate Forum
WoTC Forums Archive + Indexing Projext
PostImage, a free and sensible alternative to Photobucket
Temple+ Modding Project for Atari's Temple of Elemental Evil
Morrus' RPG Forum (EN World v2)
-
2020-12-27, 06:48 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2016
- Location
- Corvallis, OR
- Gender
Re: Vancian magic
To which fantasy fiction? You'll never get a single system that handles anything like a measurable fraction of the magic systems out there. In large part because most of the fantasy fiction ones are, for lack of a better term, squishy. They're never defined in anything like enough detail to say how they work. Nor are they even defined enough to be internally consistent. They're basically authorial fiat. Which works just fine (contra the hard-magic types) in most fiction. But doesn't work very well at the game level.
Media and games are very different and have very different needs. Trying to emulate one in the other almost universally produces garbage. And trying to emulate multiple of them means you either have mechanics that are completely abstracted (which sucks) or the system is a mess (which also sucks).
D&D falls short to the degree that people try to make it emulate things outside its zone of acceptable approximation. Which really isn't all that big. And contrary to what many people think, the developers (of 5e at least) know this and aren't marketing it as a genre emulator. It's its own thing. D&D does D&D. Expecting it to do other stuff is like expecting a pitchfork to help you eat soup. I mean, you can try, but don't blame the pitchfork when it goes wrong.Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
Rogue Equivalent Damage calculator, now prettier and more configurable!
5e Monster Data Sheet--vital statistics for all 693 MM, Volo's, and now MToF monsters: Updated!
NIH system 5e fork, very much WIP. Base github repo.
NIH System PDF Up to date main-branch build version.
-
2020-12-27, 07:23 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2018
- Location
- EU
- Gender
Re: Vancian magic
The problem is that there is no common ground for what magic is and how it works in fantasy fiction: Vance is not Harry Potter is not Earthsea is not Mistborn is not LotR and so on. There can be some similarities (for example, magic is based around saying the right words in both Earthsea and Harry Potter), but there are also heaps of differences that makes it impossible to define Fantasy Fiction Magic as anything beyond "depends on the specific piece of fiction".
You either use a vague and generic mana/spell point system, which feels very videogame-y to a lot of people, or you end up coming closer to certain magic systems than others anyway, in which case I'm perfectly fine with Vancian magic since it is one of the most distinctive elements of D&D over other fantasy roleplaying games.
Has as been said above, a lot of the magic in fantasy stories is also obviously not made with "balance" in mind, and so would map awfully to a game - Vancian magic has the benefit of having a very strict restriction for its users in that they have a limit of spells they can cast each day, forcing them to carefully consider their options and when and how to spend their slots - in theory, at least, since 3rd and 5th edition make that concern trivial as you advance in level, and 5e even has infinite cantrips.
Interestingly, the only non-D&D videogames which I recall using Vancian magic are Dark Souls and Dark Souls 2 (Demon's Souls and DS3 use a hybrid system of "attunement slots" in which you must prepare spells, but then casting them using mana points which can be recovered by using certain consumables), so I wonder if fans of that series would find Vancian magic easier to grok. I certainly cracked a smile when I realised I was preparing spells at a bonfire the first time I played Dark Souls.Last edited by Silly Name; 2020-12-27 at 07:24 PM.
-
2020-12-27, 10:12 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2014
Re: Vancian magic
Dresden files magic does not actually need words. it needs the casters will and intent, words just make it easier for the magic to work, there are several instances in the stories where dresden cast spells without using any words, tools, or potions, it is just harder.
the first half of the meaning of life is that there isn't one.
-
2020-12-28, 01:41 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2006
- Location
Re: Vancian magic
Hence why I said it could be done with a magic point system where "will" is the "mana." It costs more will to do it without components. Components make it easier, and preparing ahead of time can let you store will in pre-prepped spells that will not cost much when you finally use them.
-
2020-12-28, 08:56 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2011
Re: Vancian magic
That makes Dresden sound like Mage to me. People have complained (in this thread?) that the Dresden RPG didn't feel like Dresden magic. Has anyone tried WoD Mage to see if it was a better fit?
If all magic in a system involved <insert rules for and/or description of random sport here>, I'd hope we could all agree that that wouldn't feel right for *any* of those magic systems.
Also, at least 2e and 3e have *multiple* magic systems, not just Vancian. So it's not like you can't play a "more accurate than Vancian" expy in D&D.
Agreed - D&D should emulate D&D. Unlike 4e.
Magic doesn't have to be balanced for an RPG. Ars Magica is just the obvious example, but ShadowRun, D&D, and even WoD have some rather unbalanced magic, and are still playable (and, with the possible exception of ShadowRun, enjoyable) games.
-
2020-12-29, 01:31 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2008
- Location
- Malsheem, Nessus
- Gender
Re: Vancian magic
I love Vancian magic (at least in a D&D context). Mechanically, it provides several playstyle and balance benefits, and a level of interesting resource management, that you can't easily get with many other simpler and blander systems. Flavor-wise, far from all the complaints that Vancian is "unrealistic," I in fact think that Vancian is the most realistic of all the proposed alternative magic systems out there, if by "realistic" you mean "most closely resembles historical magical practices."
For the kind of gameplay D&D tries to deliver and the metaphysics underpinning its implicit setting, I don't think there's a better system to use than Vancian. Which isn't to say it's the only good choice--psionics and meldshaping and so forth can exist alongside it just fine--but Vancian is really the central pillar against which the others exist and are compared.
I've waxed eloquent on the benefits of Vancian before, so I'll just quote myself here instead of rambling on further:
-
2020-12-29, 04:30 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2016
Re: Vancian magic
Regarding how well Vancian represents magic, as one or two people mentioned upthread spell preparation involves performing a little ritual for every spell you want to cast and then storing it away for later, which has quite a bit more historical influence than most systems. In Goetic magic, you pull out your musty old tome, inscribe a mystical diagram on the floor, wave your arms in mystic gestures, chant for an hour and ten minutes, call out "Demon, come forth!" and poof, a minor demon from the Lesser Key of Solomon appears in your magic circle.
Do you not see how that's different?"If you want to understand biology don't think about vibrant throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology" -Richard Dawkins
Omegaupdate Forum
WoTC Forums Archive + Indexing Projext
PostImage, a free and sensible alternative to Photobucket
Temple+ Modding Project for Atari's Temple of Elemental Evil
Morrus' RPG Forum (EN World v2)
-
2020-12-29, 05:15 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2008
- Location
- Trapped in England
- Gender
Re: Vancian magic
More than any other virtue or vice of the system, it should be remembered thusly;
Vancian magic is part of what makes the whole thing Dungeons & Dragons to begin with, and not a different generic fantasy game. Not many other role-playing games that aren't themselves direct clones of Dungeons & Dragons actually incorporate it, and thus it becomes as iconic to Dungeons & Dragons as its other identifiable facets. This has been pointed out as a potential flaw, that it's not something most audiences would be as intuitively familiar with as other works, but I feel that there are some serious issues when you try and remove something that's genuinely iconic to the game because of that.
And the fact is, it has remained the most enduringly popular fantasy role-playing game on the market for forty-six years. The only areas where it suffered were when it was poorly managed for a while. And in the second of those instances, the game which picked up the slack was Pathfinder, which continued the existing version of Dungeons & Dragons complete with its use of Vancian magic.
If you don't want Vancian magic, you should be playing a different game. I can recommend a dozen or so off the top of my head;
- Ars Magica
- Burning Wheel
- The Dark Eye
- Earthdawn
- Exalted
- Fantasy AGE
- GURPS Fantasy (esp. Dungeon Fantasy)
- HarnMaster
- HARP
- Rolemaster and MERP
- RuneQuest
- Stormbringer
- Talislanta
- Tunnels & Trolls
- Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay
None of these use Vancian magic, and I think a couple of them such as Fantasy AGE deserve more prominence. There are even games that run on the d20 system like Thieves' World and Black Company which use different magic systems.
-
2020-12-29, 09:37 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2020
-
2021-01-07, 04:00 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2014
Re: Vancian magic
In my head canon for AD&D (it doesn't work in 5e unfortunately), spells are discrete entities. Not truly alive, but not precisely not-alive either. Putting spells into your brain is like putting frogs into your pocket; you have those specific frogs and no others. If you release one, it's gone and you have to go back to the pond to get another frog, even if you want another one of the exact same species.
(Also, don't put spellbooks too close together or they'll fight. And if you're extremely unlucky, you could get a spell stuck in your brain that's so scary no other spell will dare enter your head while it's there.)
-
2021-01-07, 08:57 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2005
- Location
- Virtual Austin
-
2021-01-07, 01:06 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2014
-
2021-01-07, 09:05 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2020
- Location
- Area 51
Re: Vancian magic
Vancian magic has all the flaws you talk about and most of us hated it for the same reasons.
HOWEVER,
Vancian magic has advantages and wasn't nearly as bad as they made it out to be in some early editions.
For one thing, the total number of spells you might have memorized used to be a lot higher.
Spoiler
Like, literally an extra Mage worth of spells, especially the higher level spells. And for wizards over 20th level, their Epic spell list dwarfs the epic list of some later editions. Obviously, the more spell slots you have memorized, the more variety you could have stored in there. AD&D spells also included several "container" spells and "mimic" spells. Container spells might be in the form of contingency spells, or a higher level spell containing 2 or more lower level spells. There were even spells that allowed you to fetch a chosen lower level spell from your spell books.
But mimic spells were probably the most useful. Spells like Limited Wish, Alter Reality, and Wish, could imitate multiple spells. Nearly all of them, and in some RAW cases, with no penalties, depending on what "rules" of not screwing the campaign/abusing power you followed.
Furthermore, there were spells that had huge variety of consequences, such as Polymorph Other and Polymorph Any Object, such as turning local fog into Lava, to imitate a solid firespell. Demishadow magic that imitated existing spells, and so on.
These are quirky exceptions, but with 2-3 in your belt, you ended up having way fewer vancian limits. By 2e, "Cantrip" was "all cantrips" and basically level 1 Wish - it did whatever you wanted within the limits of the power of cantrip. Illusions back then were similarly potent. An AD&D illusionist had some limits, but his same phantom this or that illusion spell could summon hundreds of different types of things, complete with unique combat features. Despite being "1 spell, memorized" that seldom felt "restrictive".
DONT GET ME WRONG...
some spells definitely felt chokingly restrictive and useless. imagine you have identify (magic item) memorized and you go into a dungeon with 1) lots of bad guys and 2) no magic items to be identified in the entire dungeon start to finish...
when what you really want is another magic missile or burning hands. I feel your pain.
The unspoken/Forgotten Advantages of Vancian Magic
First, if you actually read the DMG in 1e, Vancian spells have variable rest and memorization times. They do NOT require a full night's rest or 24 hours. That came in later editions for simplification.
1st and 2nd level spells:
your body had to have rested for 4 hours. Each spell required 10 minutes for a 1st, and 20 minutes for a 2nd level spell to download.
There are 24 hours in a day, and obviously, when you hit 8+ hours of rest, you have all your rest. So how many spells is that, really?
well, the dimes of memorization take multiple spells per hour, so in 4 hours of memorization, you get 240 minutes of memorization. that's 24 spell levels divided into 1-2. 3rd and 4th level spells required 6 hours, and a half hour/40mins each.
Thus:
4+ change
4+ change
4+ change
4+ change
= 16 hours of resting in a 24 hour period, however, and 8 hours of memorization/adventure time (most dungeons can be walked in far less than 1 hour moving at walking speed - which is about 600 boxes x 5 ft each). Deeper dungeons actually require multiple days, and thus get even more mileage out of wizards). Each four hour block requires up to 25 percent of your 8 hours for memorization, or up to 2 hours a piece, 120 minutes, 12 spell blocks, which could for instance be 4 x 1st level spells and 4 2nd level spells, though probably fewer since your memorization cap is usually lower. That lower cap however means more remaining adventuring exploring minutes.
so 2-3 1st and 1-2 2nd level spells 2/2 or 3/1 to 3/2 is most probable, making your total spells 3-5 per rest, x 4,
= 12-20 Vancian Spells per 24 hours.
Holy Fireball Batman!
Flipped over to Fireballs, the 6 hour track gets you 3 blocks totalling 18 hours of rest + 6 hours of memorization/exploration, which is up to 360 minutes, 36 spell blocks, split 3 ways, 12 spell blocks each. or 3-4 fireballs 3 times a day. To provide some measure of adventuring time, you'd want to stick closer to 3 fireballs x 3, and get 9 fireballs per day...
Did anyone mention monsters have about 1/3rd the hit points and fireballs go up to 20+d6?
...or that high level fireballs bypass some/all magic resistance?
... or that Vancian 1e fireballs have a radius and range measured in YARDS outside?
33,000 cubic yards... and back then, fireballs had water pressure.. so they would shape shift to move around corners and fill up tunnels until their total volume was reached. That's like 27 fireballs each doing mechanically triple to sextuple damage...
and you got 9 of them per day if pressed. (or was it six?)
Note that some versions and editions back then had different units. Sometimes 10 minutes per level was used (2ePHB, full night), sometimes 15 minutes (1e PHB ), and sometimes 30 minutes was used (1e DMG). Your mileage would vary based on which reference book. So you might only get 6 fireballs a day. Depended. Of course there's also the ethereal and astral planes where time moves differently...
"as a rule of thumb allow 15 minutes of game time for memorization of one spell level, i.e. a 1st level spell or half a 2nd level spell"
But its memorized...
Memorized spells didn't disappear when you slept. They didn't disappear when you were knocked unconscious. And your interrupt period for concentration was measured in units of initiative, NOT rounds. Meaning if your spell had a casting time of 1 (like magic missile) there was exactly 1 segment in which a person could try to disrupt your spell. Once that initiative value had passed, the time for interruption was over. They also couldn't interrupt your spell before you began casting. So if you got stabbed on 6, you might then begin casting magic missile on 4 (or 8 depending on the direction of initiative counting). Fireball had a casting time of 3, so for 3 segments, you could be interrupted, before and after that, there was little anyone could do unless they physically restrained you.
And if you got captured, stripped naked, stuck in a prison cell, and left for dead, with no spell book, ANY spell you had memorized would still be in your head. Spells like Stoneskin, Teleport, or Knock (to unlock the prison). Charm Person (to deal with the guards) or polymorph other (to target the rats). Granted, once cast, it was gone, though while memorized, you could use your memorized slot to copy the spell down.
So what might happen, is you burn off 1 or 2 spells from memory, with hopes to get those spells back later, make your escape, then get to a place where you can copy down your other remaining memorized spells, then of course, re-memorize those. Then go on a mad-cap murder hobo quest to get your REAL spellbook back. Many wizards had multiple spell books, so you might only be hunting down 1 spell, while busily returning to your home to review the other spells in your library.
You can even turn this into the purposeful plot. Going in dressed like a peasant, or even wearing armor and carrying some sword, then when you get into a town, in normal clothing, let lose with a bunch of spells you had memorized days or even YEARS ago. Vancian spells never disappeared until cast...
which means your enemies never really know what level you are, or what you have up your sleeve. You could be pretending to be a level 5 wizard, but actually have a whole set of spells only available to a 7th level Mage. So it becames a Cloak and Dagger approach. A Poker Game. If you were clever and your enemy had Spellcraft or familiarity with magic, they would never really know if you had run out of spells, or knew something awful, and were going to turn them or their family into slimes. You could start imitating such a spell as part of a bluff..
or in some cases, NOT a bluff.Last edited by anthon; 2021-01-07 at 09:38 PM.
-
2021-01-07, 09:47 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2019
Re: Vancian magic
That's the issue with the whole "Vancian doesn't model the genre well" objection. It's true, but it's vacuously true, because the alternative systems don't model the genre any better. Yes, there are things that don't work like Vancian Magic. But that doesn't mean we should replace it with Spell Points, because there are also things that do work like Vancian Magic and things that don't work like Spell Points. The answer is, of course, pluralism. Vancian Magic works well for some things (notably, it's a total home-run for the Wizard). But it doesn't work well for other things. D&D is a Kitchen Sink Fantasy game. It can, and should, contain a variety of things. One of those things can be Vancian Magic, but that doesn't mean they all have to be.
-
2021-01-08, 02:16 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2011
Re: Vancian magic
@Anthon
Several things about your detailed description - wondering if this is a difference between 2e and earlier editions.
Fireball wasn't limited to 10d6?
You could use Contingency on Fireball?
You need components for most spells in 2e - good luck finding sulfur & bat guano in prison. Many spells, though, had much more readily available components (eye lash, wool), or even no components at all. So it depends on what you had memorized at the time.
In 2e, at least, the "damaged" condition lasted throughout the round, preventing spellcasting. (The SSI gold box series definitely had this mechanic)
Good to know where I got the "15 minutes per spell level" bit from.
-
2021-01-08, 04:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2020
- Location
- Area 51
Re: Vancian magic
No. 1e fireball had no 10d6 limit. The Death Knight for instance, cast a 20d6 fireball. Even bigger fireballs were known. An artifact of the 20d6+ fireball still exists in the 2e monsters because the publishers at the time favored monster growth + character nerf as their revision philosophy.
I for one went with the 10 minutes/level memorization, but i was running my Grognard Hybrid. In that hybrid "cast some spells with no components" was also an option. As to casting fireball in prison, that wouldn't be my first choice. Bat Gauno is ubiquitous if you have a city with wizards and just buy a pet Bat. You could probably get a DM to approve a Bat for a familiar too if desperate, or polymorph a rat into a bat. Technically, there were lesser polymorph cantrips. Hold on...
Cantrip: Mouse - Summon a mouse
Cantrip: Change - Can change a small animal into another Mouse--> Bat. (duration ranges from 10 minutes to a few days)
Page 1054 of Volume 4 of Wizards Spell compendium.
Spells & Magic came out many years later, 1996, and we just stuck everything together we liked. For 1e wizards though, you didn't get any points for your Wizard, but if you were a human, you got 10 points. No Components cost 5 points to pick 1 school for 1 spell from each 1st-9th level to have no components, and 8 points let you pick from all your schools for the same 9 slots. Obviously, if running out of Bat Excrement is a big concern, or you simply don't want to run around smelling like a sewer, then this option is awesome.
Casting fireball in prison though is bad idea, as you are trapped in a small space with sharp angles, and fireballs filled volumes like pressurized water, so you would have about a 100 percent change of suicide unless you were immune to fire. Knock on the other hand is Verbal only, and has no material components, and is level 2. It opens wizard locked doors, stuck doors, held doors, and most importantly, locked and barred doors, like prison cells. It also opens chests, boxes, and "will loose shackles or chains as well". The only thing it wont do is lift super heavy gates or porcullis, but if they were mechanically locked, it would solve that problem.
Other imprisoned Vancian spells for your tool kit:
Detect Evil: lets you know who you might be able to trust, bribe, or expect to betray you;
Light/Continual light: improvised blind/distract
Shocking Grasp: 1d8+level no limit (most guards would drop dead above level 3)
Magic Missile: Probably the smartest prison combat spell to fend off evil rodents, hunting hounds, or weak guards. This spell also had no cap originally, so at 21st level you had 10d4+10. 3d4+3 is about right to drop 1 guard, who typically had between d6+1 and d8+1 hp (5-9).
Hold Portal: magically bars a door, so the guards can't chase you through the dungeon
These are all low level and have no material components, and are better choices than suicide by fireball.Last edited by anthon; 2021-01-08 at 04:05 PM.
-
2021-01-08, 05:24 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2014
Re: Vancian magic
You left off Charm Person. In 1e AD&D it's 1st level for wizards, has no material components, has a 3 week interval between saving throws for a human of average intelligence, and it will make the jailer treat you like a "trusted friend and ally to be heeded and protected," even to the point of being willing to try holding back a charging dragon for a round or two to save your life.
-
2021-01-09, 12:22 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2020
- Location
- Area 51
Re: Vancian magic
i agree 100%. i missed it flipping backward and stopped at "friends" for examples. I just wanted people to know the infinite duration of memorization has some unique uses.
I highly recommend switching down from the 15 minute/spell level to 10 minute per spell level duration for memorization. While It won't make an actual difference in play, it will make your players much more confident knowing if pushed to their limits.
When I was in 5e we had a DM who only did long rests, so all advantages and game balance dedicated to short rest powers was nullified. Vancian wizards who do repeat rest periods in a day will have similar strategic considerations to 5e Warlocks and their Short-rest spells.