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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Fighter build (extra feat at EVERY level + free exotic weapons proficiency)

    By level 13, I expect that you'll feel the difference between a fighter-type character and a spellcaster quite strongly. I'd estimate that a transformation sorcerer would be weaker than a fighter-type character at a melee role from levels 1-3, reach parity over levels 4-7 (Alter Self, Fly, Haste, GMW), and pull away at levels 8+ (Polymorph!). If the party cooperates well, the fighter type could still be useful as a buff target over those levels.

    For sorcerer, Abjuration is a good generally useful school which is mostly redundant with and generally inferior to the protection sphere over those levels. Enchantment is like Illusion in that it can be powerful or fall flat depending on the opponents. Both tend to fall flat more often as you go up in level. Necromancy tends to be weak at lower levels, but it picks up if you exploit Magic Jar effectively.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Fighter build (extra feat at EVERY level + free exotic weapons proficiency)

    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyphoenixx View Post
    Monks are always trash even with all the books. In core-only they're a buff commoner with some party tricks.
    How wrong you are my friend. A Monk with access to all books has so much to give... Chaos Monk allows Barb dips, Martial Monk gives all Fighter feats as bonus feat choices, Invisible Fist has invisibility and Blink, and between your class features and Intuitive Attack you can make a killer Wis-based monk with all sources. I'm talking from experience.

    But to reply to OP, your DM really doesn't seem to want to play D&D. It looks like he wants a Conan RPG game. As things look, you won't be able to have fun the standard way, so you have few options: Pick a Sorcerer that has Conjuration, pick a War Cleric with the most lists you can gather, or pick a Rogue and multiclass with Fighter for a few extra feats. Buy a pack of dogs to flank with. You don't have many options if you don't want to suck.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Fighter build (extra feat at EVERY level + free exotic weapons proficiency)

    Yeah, I think fighter would be totally fine. You'll do well at low levels, and if you ever die later on, you can switch to a more backloaded class.

    I'd want to be an orc for the Strength boost, but it's PHB only, so it'll have to be half-orc (or dwarf, if the point buy isn't high enough to get Combat Expertise with an Int penalty). Lead with Power Attack and Cleave, which are powerful tools if you're the party's main DPR. Then grab Combat Reflexes at level 2, followed by Combat Expertise and Improved Trip at level 3, opening up the tripping option. Next, you can look at Quick Draw, Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, and Precise Shot to start messing with thrown weapons, including the option for nets and bolas for longer-range disruption; Two-Weapon Fighting and its ilk to get in extra armor spike attacks, or even audible to a double weapon like a dire flail; Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple to open up grappling (and maybe Deflect Arrows while you're at it); or Improved Disarm, which I personally think is a bit underrated.

    At some point, it wouldn't be a bad idea to multiclass as a barbarian. Grab a single level, then take Extra Rage. The Strength boost will do a lot of work.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Fighter build (extra feat at EVERY level + free exotic weapons proficiency)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kayblis View Post
    How wrong you are my friend. A Monk with access to all books has so much to give... Chaos Monk allows Barb dips, Martial Monk gives all Fighter feats as bonus feat choices, Invisible Fist has invisibility and Blink, and between your class features and Intuitive Attack you can make a killer Wis-based monk with all sources. I'm talking from experience.
    A monk with access to all books is still worse than any other class at the same level of optimization. Well, except NPC classes and Truenamer.
    You're always behind what most other classes would achieve with a similar level of effort.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Fighter build (extra feat at EVERY level + free exotic weapons proficiency)

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    It's primary for feats, but not for classes and class features. If Power Attack said "wizards automatically get this as a bonus feat" but there was no mention of that in the wizard class text, they don't get it. This is the same.
    The feat itself gives itself to you if you take classes other than the ones mentioned. The classes themselves don't have to say anything.

    Unless you can't get spells outside of Core if you're wizard, cleric, druid, bard, or paladin, because they're not on your PHB spell list, since that's your primary source?

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    Default Re: Fighter build (extra feat at EVERY level + free exotic weapons proficiency)

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    The feat itself gives itself to you if you take classes other than the ones mentioned. The classes themselves don't have to say anything.

    Unless you can't get spells outside of Core if you're wizard, cleric, druid, bard, or paladin, because they're not on your PHB spell list, since that's your primary source?
    It's a pretty poor monk build in general, though. In Iron Chef, it would be maaaybe like a 12/20 at best. Most of the tricks are either highly suspect or flat-out don't work at all, so you're tanking elegance on top of losing a lot of power points once you account for DM adjudication. The presentation is also garbled and messy, making it hard to read, and it relies heavily on items and WBL, which is sure to hurt you in UotSI. There are some FTQ problems in the sequencing, and even if your DM allows DCFS, you don't have any native access to it, nor do you have the UMD to cast it from a scroll, and as an 8th-level spell, any given metropolis has only about a 20% chance to contain a cleric capable of offering it as a spellcasting service. And due to some faulty math, the items used exceed the available WBL for a 20th-level character. Altogether, it's mostly smoke and mirrors: a pile of questionable tricks that are poorly justified, poorly presented, and largely independent of monk as a class. I wouldn't give it any more credence than the infamous partially charged wand monk. At least UMD clearly works in the rules.

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Fighter build (extra feat at EVERY level + free exotic weapons proficiency)

    Quote Originally Posted by sleepyphoenixx View Post
    A monk with access to all books is still worse than any other class at the same level of optimization. Well, except NPC classes and Truenamer.
    You're always behind what most other classes would achieve with a similar level of effort.
    A monk can make certain concepts work though. I agree with you on the same amount of optimization has been performed a monk will not outperform any class. But if only a bit of optimization has occurred to a fighter or rogue a multi-classed monk can shine brightly with non standard abilities and make for an interesting and fun character to play.

    Sadly wizard, sorc, cleric, and even bard with 1/2 applied optimization will out pace even the best designed monk. I really like monks too. I just play swordsage and fluff it back as a monk. Works much better.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Fighter build (extra feat at EVERY level + free exotic weapons proficiency)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mykerinos View Post

    I was thinking archer/fighter, perhaps with the added ability to trip.

    ... .
    Quote Originally Posted by Mykerinos View Post
    Cleric ... indeed it would normally have been my first choice, ...
    It seems as if, first you need to decide if you are going to choose your classes according to your other party members, or just build what you want.

    Then, you may need to choose between cleric and sorcerer (most will advise to have some spells. I'll use cleric). If you can get healing, protection, and combat spheres, you're golden.
    If not, you may want to check with the other party members, and see if one of them has that covered.

    Then, if you're still considering an Archer Tripper, it's not that hard. (I wonder if you fully understand the limits of archery, and how to overcome them).
    * You would need 3 archery feats, and 3 tripping feats, and possibly some salt and pepper.

    Meanwhile, spells become less useful the later you get them. Benchmark for a fighter cleric is 4th level spells by about level 9-10.

    Human is easiest. With three feats at first level a fighter can pick up either the entire core archery or tripping line.

    Spoiler: Example Feat Progression
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    Human: point blank shot
    1 Fighter: precise shot, rapid shot
    2 Fighter: combat reflexes
    3 Fighter: combat expertise, improved trip
    4 Cleric:
    5 Cleric:
    6 Cleric: feat


    At level 13, a fighter 3/ cleric 10 would get 5th level spells, while a sorcerer 13 would get 6th level spells, or a cleric 13 just reach 7ths.

    ** Looking at your spell spheres, I see that healing might be open to a workaround. The heal domain supplies enough spells at the campaign level, that perhaps the heal sphere can be given up.

    Spoiler: Heal Sphere Spell List
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    The protection sphere supplies lesser restoration, ... so these are the spells you'd be missing (scrolls? potions?). Many are 7ths, and would never be needed 12 level campaign, but would be sorely missed in a 15 level campaign.

    Delay Poison (Level 2): Stops poison from harming subject for 1 hour/level.
    Remove Blindness/Deafness (Level 3): Cures normal or magical conditions.
    Remove Disease (Level 3): Cures all diseases affecting subject.

    Neutralize Poison (Level 4): Immunizes subject against poison, detoxifies venom in or on subject.
    Restoration M (Level 4): Restores level and ability score drains.

    Heal (Level 6): Cures 10 points/level of damage, all diseases and mental conditions.

    Cure Serious Wounds, Mass (Level 7): Cures 3d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
    Regenerate (Level 7): Subject’s severed limbs grow back, cures 4d8 damage +1/level (max +35).
    Restoration, Greater X (Level 7): As restoration, plus restores all levels and ability scores.
    Resurrection M (Level 7): Fully restore dead subject.


    Potions for three 1-3rd level spells, scrolls for two 4th level spells, and viola!
    You're two levels away from the end of the campaign.
    You can buy those final spells in town, if you need them because someone happens to die at the beginning of 13th level, and you don't have a cleric 13 in the party.

    Can you find a deity with the spheres protection and combat, then take the heal domain? Tell the DM that, and see if he falls for it.

    * Get with the DM about the craft skill?
    Fighter and cleric both have it.

    By level 8-9 you'll easily make the dc 15 for crafting masterwork hammers and tools, that will then boost your armor crafting.

    If you take craft Craft Magic Arms And Armor [Item Creation] as your 9th level feat, then you and your partners can team up to create and upgrade custom armor for your party. Your DM and your crew might love the idea, or hate it. Ask them.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Fighter build (extra feat at EVERY level + free exotic weapons proficiency)

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    Unless you can't get spells outside of Core if you're wizard, cleric, druid, bard, or paladin, because they're not on your PHB spell list, since that's your primary source?
    Adding more options to an extant class feature =/= adding a new class feature. You'll realize it has to be this way because it doesn't make sense that, eg, some feat printed in a random other sourcebook could say "x class gets this as a bonus feat" and modify the class just because that feat was the primary source on itself.
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    Default Re: Fighter build (extra feat at EVERY level + free exotic weapons proficiency)

    It's not a class feature, though. It's a feat that gives itself to everyone but the classes listed in the feat itself. It's kinda hard to misread.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Fighter build (extra feat at EVERY level + free exotic weapons proficiency)

    A bonus feat is a class feature. The feat is primary text for itself but not for classes. It doesn't have jurisdiction over what bonus feats they do or don't receive. Another example, imagine Stunning Fist said monks could choose it as a bonus feat at 3rd level, but the class text said they could choose it at 1st level. The feat would be wrong. It's cut and dry.

    By contrast, Martial Monk exploit for evading prereqs is skeevy as it's an obvious oversight, but is technically raw
    Last edited by Elves; 2020-12-23 at 08:43 PM.
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    Default Re: Fighter build (extra feat at EVERY level + free exotic weapons proficiency)

    Quote Originally Posted by Elves View Post
    A bonus feat is a class feature. The feat is primary text for itself but not for classes. It doesn't have jurisdiction over what bonus feats they do or don't receive. Another example, imagine Stunning Fist said monks could choose it as a bonus feat at 3rd level, but the class text said they could choose it at 1st level. The feat would be wrong. It's cut and dry.
    There's a lot wrong with what you just said. Bonus feats are NOT class features, as they can also be granted by race, by magic items, by rituals, by magical locations, by money, by symbiotes, by grafts, by spells and powers, or even by other feats. If a feat such as Psicrystal Affinity can grant Alertness, I don't see why a feat can't grant itself if it explicitly says it can. Which Light Armor Proficiency does. Specific overrides general, and Light Armor Proficiency specifically grants itself to any class not otherwise barred from getting it. The others can take the feat manually if they want, but everyone else gets it automatically.
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2020-12-23 at 08:54 PM.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Fighter build (extra feat at EVERY level + free exotic weapons proficiency)

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    There's a lot wrong with what you just said. Bonus feats are NOT class features.
    In this case they're being granted as class attributes. Precedent agrees -- many other PHB feats, like the monk and ranger ones, include a note of classes that gain them as bonus feats, while there's a severe dearth of self-granting feats there or elsewhere. I'd be interested if you could find another place where the feat is the only source for granting itself. (Which is different from a feat that grants another feat as part of or as a result of its effect, like Psicrystal.)

    And again, would it make sense if in some random sourcebook you could have a feat that said "wizards automatically have this as a bonus feat"? Doesn't make structural sense, and it's weird legalese to claim that it is not being granted as a class bonus feat when it's taking levels in the class that grants you it.

    The error here is obvious and we have the primary source rule exactly for that sort of error. As exploits go this one doesn't hold up.
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    Default Re: Fighter build (extra feat at EVERY level + free exotic weapons proficiency)

    Many thanks everyone for the input and sorry for replying late.

    I have some further information from my GM regarding the cleric option:

    If I play a war deity, I can retain the d8 hit die and the ability to wear heavy armor.
    To compensate for that benefit, I would be limited to 4 spheres with full access and 4 spheres with limited access (spell levels 0-3). If I give up the higher hit die and heavy armor, I get 6 full and 6 limited spheres. Which option makes more sense, in your opinion?

    The campaign will start on Saturday. So I will have to make a decision soon.

    Thanks for your help!

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    Default Re: Fighter build (extra feat at EVERY level + free exotic weapons proficiency)

    I created a mod for fighters that I have had good feedback from. The vanguard gets some class-specific abilities and gets the Weapon Focus tree for free. It's in my sig, if you want to take a look.
    See my Extended Signature for my list of silly shenanigans.

    Anyone is welcome to use or critique my 3.5 Fighter homebrew: The Vanguard.

    I am a Dungeon Master for Hire that creates custom content for people and programs d20 content for the HeroLab character system. Please donate to my Patreon and visit the HeroLab forums.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: Fighter build (extra feat at EVERY level + free exotic weapons proficiency)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mykerinos View Post
    If I play a war deity, I can retain the d8 hit die and the ability to wear heavy armor.
    To compensate for that benefit, I would be limited to 4 spheres with full access and 4 spheres with limited access (spell levels 0-3). If I give up the higher hit die and heavy armor, I get 6 full and 6 limited spheres. Which option makes more sense, in your opinion?
    It really depends on the party, but if the party needs a front-liner, 4 is plenty good. Something like {Healing, Combat, Protection, Summoning} would go a long ways. (Summoning is a back-door way to get access to many other spell effects.)

    Other good spheres look like Animal, Astral, Divination, Elemental, Plant.

    If on the other hand, the party needs a caster and has plenty of front-liners, then 6 seems fine as well.

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: Fighter build (extra feat at EVERY level + free exotic weapons proficiency)

    while I also think that core fighter is not the best choice, I'll still try to make the most of it as test. Lets see where we get:

    Half-Ork
    1: Combat Expertise; Improved Trip
    2: Combat Reflexes
    3: Dodge; Mobility
    4: Spring Attack
    5: Whirlwind Attack
    6: Mounted Combat; Ride-by-Attack
    7: Spirited Charge
    8: Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain)
    9: Weapon Specialization (Spiked Chain); Greater Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain)
    10: Power Attack
    11: Improved Initiative
    12: Greater Weapon Specialization (Spiked Chain); Improved Critical (Spiked Chain)
    13: Blind-Fight
    14: Quick Draw (to have a full-round action to charge in the first round when you haven't your weapon drawn out yet)
    15: Improved Unarmed Strike; Stunning Fist
    16: Improved Grapple (more as defense because the +4 bonus also counts when being grappled by others^^)
    17: Deflect Arrows
    18: Iron Will; Lightning Reflexes
    19: Greater Fortitude
    20: Diehard

    As you can see, till lvl 12 we can get somewhat decent feats with going pure fighter.

    The regular attack routine looks like this:
    Mounted Charge + Ride-by-Attack + Spirited Charge or Trip + Whirlwind Attack (+Power Attack optional)
    Note that "turning at the end of your movement" doesn't break the "line" Ride-by-Attack limits your movement to. This way you are prepared to face the enemies in the next round to charge again.

    I would still suggest to to go for up to 8 lvls in Barbarian (maybe even more) instead of going straight 20 lvl of fighter. Other than that, I would say it looks like a decent PHB only build.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: Fighter build (extra feat at EVERY level + free exotic weapons proficiency)

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    It really depends on the party, but if the party needs a front-liner, 4 is plenty good. Something like {Healing, Combat, Protection, Summoning} would go a long ways. (Summoning is a back-door way to get access to many other spell effects.)

    Other good spheres look like Animal, Astral, Divination, Elemental, Plant.

    If on the other hand, the party needs a caster and has plenty of front-liners, then 6 seems fine as well.
    The party currently consists of a fighter, a monk, a rouge and a sorcerer (illusion + another school yet unknown). So I guess both - front-liner and caster - are valid options. I like the war cleric option a bit better but haven't completely made up my mind yet.

    My concern is the choice of domains I have if I go for war cleric. There is only one deity option for that, and its domains are mostly sub-par: Destruction, Fire, War, Evil. War is especially bad and moreover, has a considerable overlap with the combat sphere, which I would like to take. I can't get around War however to get the d8 hit die and heavy armor. The really useful domains of trickery, travel, luck etc. are not available unfortunately. If I play a war cleric, I would thus probably take War and Fire. For domains, I would follow your suggestions and take: Healing, Combat, Protection and Summoning. Animal, plant and Astral are great, too. But the former two are not availabe for my deity and the latter mostly has high level spells, which will probably only become available towards the very end of the campaign or not at all. I also have the choice of 4 partial spheres (only level 1 - 3 available). Here, I plan to pick Divination, Elemental, Charm and Weather. These domains seem to have solid L1-3 spells. The only spell on my wish list that I will not get like this is "Air walk", which in L4 Elemental.

    As for attributes I am thinking:

    Strength 16
    Dexterity 8
    Con 15
    Int 10
    Wisdom 18
    Charisma 8

    Our GM gives us 75 points for distribution (min. 3, max. 18)

    Race: Human

    Which feats should I take at L1? I will get Martial Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus from the War domain. Would Power Attack be a good choice - and perhaps Extend Spell?

    Thanks for your help. It is much appreciated.

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: Fighter build (extra feat at EVERY level + free exotic weapons proficiency)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gruftzwerg View Post
    while I also think that core fighter is not the best choice, I'll still try to make the most of it as test. Lets see where we get:

    Half-Ork
    1: Combat Expertise; Improved Trip
    2: Combat Reflexes
    3: Dodge; Mobility
    4: Spring Attack
    5: Whirlwind Attack
    6: Mounted Combat; Ride-by-Attack
    7: Spirited Charge
    8: Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain)
    9: Weapon Specialization (Spiked Chain); Greater Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain)
    10: Power Attack
    11: Improved Initiative
    12: Greater Weapon Specialization (Spiked Chain); Improved Critical (Spiked Chain)
    13: Blind-Fight
    14: Quick Draw (to have a full-round action to charge in the first round when you haven't your weapon drawn out yet)
    15: Improved Unarmed Strike; Stunning Fist
    16: Improved Grapple (more as defense because the +4 bonus also counts when being grappled by others^^)
    17: Deflect Arrows
    18: Iron Will; Lightning Reflexes
    19: Greater Fortitude
    20: Diehard

    As you can see, till lvl 12 we can get somewhat decent feats with going pure fighter.

    The regular attack routine looks like this:
    Mounted Charge + Ride-by-Attack + Spirited Charge or Trip + Whirlwind Attack (+Power Attack optional)
    Note that "turning at the end of your movement" doesn't break the "line" Ride-by-Attack limits your movement to. This way you are prepared to face the enemies in the next round to charge again.

    I would still suggest to to go for up to 8 lvls in Barbarian (maybe even more) instead of going straight 20 lvl of fighter. Other than that, I would say it looks like a decent PHB only build.
    Thank you - that sounds very good. If my further negotiations with the GM regarding the war cleric option fail, your suggestion will be my plan B.

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Default Re: Fighter build (extra feat at EVERY level + free exotic weapons proficiency)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mykerinos View Post
    ...
    Given the others, it's very clear the party will benefit from having a cleric, particularly at low levels.

    That monk is sort of the deciding factor for front-liner-or-not. If you can buff the monk (monks are extra buffable), it could be good on the front line. Given the limited magic access though that may not be viable, leaving a front-liner cleric as desirable. Still, you might encourage the monk character to invest in pearls of power wherever possible in order to assist buffing.

    War is a pretty good domain for the early-mid levels. Fire is kinda meh, but the others look no better.

    For stats, I'd suggest reducing intelligence to 3. Since you get a minimum of one skill point/level and the human bonus skill point, you'll end up with 2 skill points/level instead of 3/level at Intelligence 10. You can use those extra 7 ability points to upgrade to Strength 18, Dexterity 14, Constitution 14. Alternatively, you could dump Charisma, but that will nerf your Turn Undead more.

    In terms of feats, Improved Initiative is a good general-purpose feat for both front-line combat and spellcasting. Power Attack doesn't really come online yet, so picking it later seems better. Extend Spell is in the same boat---those are good L3 and L6 choices. At level 1 for a combat cleric using PHB-only feats Combat Reflexes is pretty good. Use a two-handed reach weapon as primary. This could be a longspear, or perhaps a glaive. The combination of reach + two-handed weapon + strength + combat reflexes can do some serious damage when the party is swarmed by low-level enemies. Note that this even works when you lose initiative. Have a backup one-handed weapon+shield for close-in work when that's necessary and some ranged weapons as well.

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    Default Re: Fighter build (extra feat at EVERY level + free exotic weapons proficiency)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mykerinos View Post
    Hi guys,

    In our new campaign, the GM introduced some modifications in an attempt to balance the power level of the different classes better and make the game a bit more low fantasy. Also, we will only use the PHB for character creation etc. Moreover, wizards and druids are not permitted, and clerics and sorcerers have been nerfed.

    Any thoughts or recommendations are highly appreciated!

    Thank you.
    Tell your DM about the E6 version of D&D. It limits character advancement to 6th level and all the classes are somewhat able to contribute as magic hasn't got of hand yet.

    He won't have to worry about eliminating classes, rewriting abilities, cultivating spell lists, and limiting books. The class still aren't completely balanced, but a 6th-level Fighter doesn't become useless and a 6th-level spell caster doesn't take over the game.

    I've played E6 will two minor changes and it's been fine. I give Fighters two more skill points a level and I let any class take any skill without paying extra. That allows Fighters to contribute outside of combat and it allows the other classes to be more rounded.

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: Fighter build (extra feat at EVERY level + free exotic weapons proficiency)

    I agree that War and Fire are the domains to go with. Nothing wrong with Fire domain—it's fine. Decent domain power, some good spells...you could do a lot worse. I like fire seeds.

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    Default Re: Fighter build (extra feat at EVERY level + free exotic weapons proficiency)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mars Ultor View Post
    Tell your DM about the E6 version of D&D. It limits character advancement to 6th level and all the classes are somewhat able to contribute as magic hasn't got of hand yet.

    He won't have to worry about eliminating classes, rewriting abilities, cultivating spell lists, and limiting books. The class still aren't completely balanced, but a 6th-level Fighter doesn't become useless and a 6th-level spell caster doesn't take over the game.

    I've played E6 will two minor changes and it's been fine. I give Fighters two more skill points a level and I let any class take any skill without paying extra. That allows Fighters to contribute outside of combat and it allows the other classes to be more rounded.
    I'd give all classes +2 skill points per level, and give fighters an extra +4 on top of that (instead of the +2 you recommended), as well as allow fighters to take any feat they qualify for using their bonus feats. That way, fighters are more than "I hit it with a stick." They're not exactly Int-oriented, after all. Otherwise, I definitely agree that it would work well in this situation.
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2021-01-17 at 02:12 PM.

  24. - Top - End - #54
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2020

    Default Re: Fighter build (extra feat at EVERY level + free exotic weapons proficiency)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mars Ultor View Post
    Tell your DM about the of D&D. It limits character advancement to 6th level and all the classes are somewhat able to contribute as magic hasn't got of hand yet.

    He won't have to worry about eliminating classes, rewriting abilities, cultivating spell lists, and limiting books. The class still aren't completely balanced, but a 6th-level Fighter doesn't become useless and a 6th-level spell caster doesn't take over the game.

    I've played E6 will two minor changes and it's been fine. I give Fighters two more skill points a level and I let any class take any skill without paying extra. That allows Fighters to contribute outside of combat and it allows the other classes to be more rounded.
    Thank you! Will do.

  25. - Top - End - #55
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2019

    Default Re: Fighter build (extra feat at EVERY level + free exotic weapons proficiency)

    Some big questions about this...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mykerinos View Post
    Also, we will only use the PHB for character creation etc. Moreover, wizards and druids are not permitted, and clerics and sorcerers have been nerfed.

    - 1 extra fighter feat at EVERY level (instead of every two levels)
    - free exotic weapon proficiency for all exotic weapons
    - 4 instead of 2 skills points

    1. Are you using 3.0 or 3.5 PHB?
    2. Are you going to be allowed to Multi-Class?
    3. Can you take Prestige Classes?
    4. If so, are Prestige Classes limited to the DMG? 3.0 or 3.5?
    5. Can you take Feats from other books that are not your Fighter Bonus Feats?
    6. What alignment is most of the party?
    7. Would going LG be a problem?

    Sounds like Bards are the only caster not nerfed, but then again they are nerfed to begin with, but it could be an idea.

    While a Feat every level is a bonus, as many have mentioned, it isn’t a great bonus at higher levels, but it can be if you Multi-Class as it gives you the extra Feat at 3rd and 5th that many specs can take advantage of.

    Free Exotic Weapon Feats actually are a pretty huge thing as it frees up other feats.

    The Bonus Skill Points is interesting, and could make the multi-classing easier for certain specs.

    Quote Originally Posted by bean illus View Post
    * Get with the DM about the craft skill?

    ...

    If you take craft Craft Magic Arms And Armor [Item Creation] as your 9th level feat, then you and your partners can team up to create and upgrade custom armor for your party. Your DM and your crew might love the idea, or hate it. Ask them.
    Your DM is clearly open to changing many game fundamentals, ask him if he would accept a change to skills to be trained or untrained as per the character instead of the class.

    Explanation: If a Character has a non-class skill it is still a half ranks per skill point. If a character has any class that makes it a class skill, it is considered a class skill for all classes on that character. The one point of exception is if a Character spends skill points prior to it being a Class Skill they remain half ranks, but the character could still max out the skill equal to their character level +3.

    This argument makes much sense when you present a point like why would a rogue that is sneaking and has an ultimate goal of being a Arcane Trickster lose certain skills, it is who they are as a character.

    This gives a bonus to Multi-Classing when there are usually so many down sides.

    Crafting Skill could allow you to craft new weapons. A new Longsword-like weapon that does 2d4 instead of 1d8, or a Greatsword-like weapon that does 3d4 instead of 2d6. Maybe increase Critical Threats. You can craft lots of new and exotic weapons that you have free feats for, you could even craft an Arquebus

    Here’s the point, Spellcasters can create new spells with Spellcraft, why not new weapons for fighters, using Craft (Weaponsmith). Not many even try this, they just take what the game feeds them for equipment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mykerinos View Post
    The party currently consists of a fighter, a monk, a rouge and a sorcerer (illusion + another school yet unknown). So I guess both - front-liner and caster - are valid options. I like the war cleric option a bit better but haven't completely made up my mind yet.

    As for attributes I am thinking:

    Strength 16
    Dexterity 8
    Con 15
    Int 10
    Wisdom 18
    Charisma 8

    Our GM gives us 75 points for distribution (min. 3, max. 18)

    Race: Human
    Humans get an initial feat, and they also get best advantage to Multi-Classing.

    I don’t know how quickly you will advance, but I have a few builds based off of 3.0 PHB only.

    Answer those questions, and I can give some more specifics.

  26. - Top - End - #56
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2020

    Default Re: Fighter build (extra feat at EVERY level + free exotic weapons proficiency)

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    I agree that War and Fire are the domains to go with. Nothing wrong with Fire domain—it's fine. Decent domain power, some good spells...you could do a lot worse. I like fire seeds.
    Thank you.

    I spoke to my GM and asked him if I could take a different domain than War (which, in his modified system, is normally a requirement for retaining d8 hit die and heavy armor), since it overlaps with the Combat Sphere (see one of my initial posts for spell list). The only additional spells War grants beyond the ones in Combat Sphere are some words of power (which are pretty useless I read and which are probably too high level for our campaign anyways). He was agreeable to waiving the War domain requirement but insisted on me sticking to the deity's regular domain choices while I was aiming for Travel or Trickery :-D. The regular domains are Destruction, Fire, Evil and War. Out of these, you would recommend Fire and War, right? I can try to negotiate with my GM to perhaps allow the law domain. Would that be better than War or Fire in your opinion?

    Thanks a lot!

  27. - Top - End - #57
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2020

    Default Re: Fighter build (extra feat at EVERY level + free exotic weapons proficiency)

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    Given the others, it's very clear the party will benefit from having a cleric, particularly at low levels.

    That monk is sort of the deciding factor for front-liner-or-not. If you can buff the monk (monks are extra buffable), it could be good on the front line. Given the limited magic access though that may not be viable, leaving a front-liner cleric as desirable. Still, you might encourage the monk character to invest in pearls of power wherever possible in order to assist buffing.

    War is a pretty good domain for the early-mid levels. Fire is kinda meh, but the others look no better.

    For stats, I'd suggest reducing intelligence to 3. Since you get a minimum of one skill point/level and the human bonus skill point, you'll end up with 2 skill points/level instead of 3/level at Intelligence 10. You can use those extra 7 ability points to upgrade to Strength 18, Dexterity 14, Constitution 14. Alternatively, you could dump Charisma, but that will nerf your Turn Undead more.

    In terms of feats, Improved Initiative is a good general-purpose feat for both front-line combat and spellcasting. Power Attack doesn't really come online yet, so picking it later seems better. Extend Spell is in the same boat---those are good L3 and L6 choices. At level 1 for a combat cleric using PHB-only feats Combat Reflexes is pretty good. Use a two-handed reach weapon as primary. This could be a longspear, or perhaps a glaive. The combination of reach + two-handed weapon + strength + combat reflexes can do some serious damage when the party is swarmed by low-level enemies. Note that this even works when you lose initiative. Have a backup one-handed weapon+shield for close-in work when that's necessary and some ranged weapons as well.
    Thank you very much for the suggestions.

    I understand that it would be beneficial in terms of optimization to reduce INT or CHA to 3 but doing that would limit my ability to play the character the way I want. CHA 6 is my lower limit.

    That said, I think I won't get DEX high enough to make good use of Combat Reflexes. And even if I had higher DEX, my heavy armor would invalidate Combat Reflexes, wouldn't it? Or maybe I misunderstood something.

    Thank you for the feat recommendations. I will take improved initiative. Power attack and especially extend spell can wait, true.

    Many thanks!

  28. - Top - End - #58
    Pixie in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2020

    Default Re: Fighter build (extra feat at EVERY level + free exotic weapons proficiency)

    Quote Originally Posted by MR_Andersom View Post
    Some big questions about this...



    1. Are you using 3.0 or 3.5 PHB?
    2. Are you going to be allowed to Multi-Class?
    3. Can you take Prestige Classes?
    4. If so, are Prestige Classes limited to the DMG? 3.0 or 3.5?
    5. Can you take Feats from other books that are not your Fighter Bonus Feats?
    6. What alignment is most of the party?
    7. Would going LG be a problem?

    Sounds like Bards are the only caster not nerfed, but then again they are nerfed to begin with, but it could be an idea.

    While a Feat every level is a bonus, as many have mentioned, it isn’t a great bonus at higher levels, but it can be if you Multi-Class as it gives you the extra Feat at 3rd and 5th that many specs can take advantage of.

    Free Exotic Weapon Feats actually are a pretty huge thing as it frees up other feats.

    The Bonus Skill Points is interesting, and could make the multi-classing easier for certain specs.



    Your DM is clearly open to changing many game fundamentals, ask him if he would accept a change to skills to be trained or untrained as per the character instead of the class.

    Explanation: If a Character has a non-class skill it is still a half ranks per skill point. If a character has any class that makes it a class skill, it is considered a class skill for all classes on that character. The one point of exception is if a Character spends skill points prior to it being a Class Skill they remain half ranks, but the character could still max out the skill equal to their character level +3.

    This argument makes much sense when you present a point like why would a rogue that is sneaking and has an ultimate goal of being a Arcane Trickster lose certain skills, it is who they are as a character.

    This gives a bonus to Multi-Classing when there are usually so many down sides.

    Crafting Skill could allow you to craft new weapons. A new Longsword-like weapon that does 2d4 instead of 1d8, or a Greatsword-like weapon that does 3d4 instead of 2d6. Maybe increase Critical Threats. You can craft lots of new and exotic weapons that you have free feats for, you could even craft an Arquebus

    Here’s the point, Spellcasters can create new spells with Spellcraft, why not new weapons for fighters, using Craft (Weaponsmith). Not many even try this, they just take what the game feeds them for equipment.



    Humans get an initial feat, and they also get best advantage to Multi-Classing.

    I don’t know how quickly you will advance, but I have a few builds based off of 3.0 PHB only.

    Answer those questions, and I can give some more specifics.
    Thanks for your input. Here my answers:

    1. 3.5
    2. Yes
    3. Only PHB - So, no.
    4. No. Only PHB.
    5. N/A
    6. Party average is Lawful Neutral (ranges from Chotic Good to Lawful Evil). I am considering Lawful Evil or Lawful Neutral.
    7. Yes, because in the GMs world, the good and neutral deities have lost power which means that clerics of good and neutral deities suffer a caster level Malus and suffer a caster level Malus.

    Thanks for your help.

  29. - Top - End - #59
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Rocky Mountains, Colorado

    Default Re: Fighter build (extra feat at EVERY level + free exotic weapons proficiency)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mykerinos View Post
    Thanks for your input. Here my answers:

    1. 3.5
    2. Yes
    3. Only PHB - So, no.
    4. No. Only PHB.
    5. N/A
    6. Party average is Lawful Neutral (ranges from Chotic Good to Lawful Evil). I am considering Lawful Evil or Lawful Neutral.
    7. Yes, ... .
    So, you can prc, but only 3.5 core. Correct?

    Bro, ... go cleric, and make a fighter.
    You may be right about not needing the war domain, with the combat sphere. Yes, the law domain power is nice.

  30. - Top - End - #60
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Fighter build (extra feat at EVERY level + free exotic weapons proficiency)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mykerinos View Post
    That said, I think I won't get DEX high enough to make good use of Combat Reflexes. And even if I had higher DEX, my heavy armor would invalidate Combat Reflexes, wouldn't it? Or maybe I misunderstood something.
    Combat Reflexes works in heavy armor. The only incompatibility between heavy armor and dexterity is with regards to armor class.

    Dexterity 13 is the minimum for Combat reflexes. You could reduce Charisma to 6, Wisdom to 16, and then shift that extra point on Constitution over to Dexterity to get Dexterity 13 giving two AOOs/round. Not great, but still healthy.

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