Fighter build (extra feat at EVERY level + free exotic weapons proficiency)

[Mykerinos]

So, you can prc, but only 3.5 core. Correct?

Bro, ... go cleric, and make a fighter.
You may be right about not needing the war domain, with the combat sphere. Yes, the law domain power is nice.

Thanks for the input. I will ask the GM re the law domain.

Only PHB, not core. So no prestige classes.

[Troacctid]

Thank you.

I spoke to my GM and asked him if I could take a different domain than War (which, in his modified system, is normally a requirement for retaining d8 hit die and heavy armor), since it overlaps with the Combat Sphere (see one of my initial posts for spell list). The only additional spells War grants beyond the ones in Combat Sphere are some words of power (which are pretty useless I read and which are probably too high level for our campaign anyways). He was agreeable to waiving the War domain requirement but insisted on me sticking to the deity's regular domain choices while I was aiming for Travel or Trickery :-D. The regular domains are Destruction, Fire, Evil and War. Out of these, you would recommend Fire and War, right? I can try to negotiate with my GM to perhaps allow the law domain. Would that be better than War or Fire in your opinion?

Thanks a lot!

War would still be better than Law, IMO, because it has a better domain granted ability with the Weapon Focus.

[MR_Anderson]

Spoiler: Question/Answers

Show

1. Are you using 3.0 or 3.5 PHB?
   
   Answer: 3.5
   .
2. Are you going to be allowed to Multi-Class?
   
   Answer: Yes
   .
3. Can you take Prestige Classes?
   
   Answer: No
   .
4. If so, are Prestige Classes limited to the DMG? 3.0 or 3.5?
   
   N/A
   .
5. Can you take Feats from other books that are not your Fighter Bonus Feats?
   
   Answer: No
   .
6. What alignment is most of the party?
   
   Answer: Party average is Lawful Neutral (ranges from Chotic Good to Lawful Evil). I am considering Lawful Evil or Lawful Neutral.
   .
7. Would going LG be a problem?
   
   Answer: Yes, because in the GMs world, the good and neutral deities have lost power which means that clerics of good and neutral deities suffer a caster level Malus and suffer a caster level Malus.

I know that you are leaning against LG because of caster level, but if you are not really a caster it doesn’t really impact you, right?

A LG character if played well has the ability to tie the CG character to the LE character better than a N character would, as the LG will understand the Drive of the CG, and the LE’s desire for order.

Going LG opens up options as a mainly Fighter/Melee class by grabbing levels in Paladin, as does just being Lawful for picking up a few Levels in Monk to help with protections.

Our Group plays mostly PHB only, so building off of it is something I’m used to, but we can access Prestige Classes. Unfortunately you are using 3.5, not 3.0 where you can really abuse Ranger as you level up.

I would recommend mostly DEX based melee characters, either Bow or Weapon Finesse build, maybe dual-wield, possibly a critical based build.

Thus your character Dips into lots of classes for all the good early abilities.

Spoiler: Class Dips by Advantage

Show

PALADIN
3 Paladin - Protections, Save Bonus, Laying on Hands
+1 Paladin - For 1st Level Spells (L. Restoration & Pro. Evil)
+1 Paladin - For Mount

NOTE: This dip is amazing for what it provides in 3 Levels, and an extra 2 levels don’t hurt a melee class if you can work in the mount. Once you end your leveling in this class you are done, so it is usually your first few levels, but you can also take it if all classes are level 2 or less. You can start with Rogue or another class for the Skill Points and then the next 3 in Paladin.


RANGER
2 Ranger - Basically Track and Combat Style Bonus Feat, but also Favorite Enemy.
+2 Ranger - For 1st Level Spells (Pass w/o Trace & Resist Energy) and Animal Companion

NOTE: Why not have two mounts if combined with 5 Levels of Paladin? Play a LG Female character and make the DM tell you that you can’t have both a Pegasus and a Unicorn!!! LOL


MONK
2 Monk - 2x Bonus Feats, Saves, Evasion, AC Bonus
+1 Monk - +10 to base movement
+1 Monk - Last +1 to all saves, 1d8 Unarmed, Ki (Magic) strike.

NOTE: Monk is really just dipped for the Wisdom AC Bonus to wear no armor, but the Saves, early Evasion, and extra base movement are bonus. I’ve never done more than two levels, but I would never justify more than 4. This is another class that once you stop leveling, you’re done so these two levels need to be planned.


ROGUE
2 Rogue - +1d6 SA and Evasion
+1 Rogue - +1d6 SA
+1 Rogue - Uncanny Dodge

NOTE: Rogue is a Skill Point filler class, so a Level here and there can catch skill ranks back to max. Also, some DM’s allow Evasion to stack with previous earned Evasion Abilities to become Improved Evasion much like Uncanny Dodge becoming Improved Uncanny Dodge. Up to 4 Levels, unless you are doing a build for SA then maybe 7 or 8 Levels.


CLERIC
3 Cleric - For 2nd Level Spells (Basically only Silence, but also Shield Other and Buffs), Travel Domain Special Ability, and Trickery Domain Invisibility Spell.
+2 Cleric - To Meet Caster Level Requirement for Craft Magical Arms & Weapons, and Fly Spell from Travel Domain

NOTE: Obscuring Mist/Fog Cloud with Blind Fighting or Faerie Fire (in Weather Sphere) is another Combat advantage other than Silencing a caster in your proximity.


FIGHTER
4 Fighter - Weapon Specialization and Bonus Feats

NOTE: The free exotic weapons and extra bonus feats aren’t worth going straight Fighter. 4 Levels pretty much gets the best out of this.

Depending on what your play styles are, You could take some or even all. Obviously, Human is the best race for this.

Some interesting builds; 1st is like one of my cohorts who is dual wielding crit machine.

Spoiler: No Armor Combat DEX Build

Show

3 Paladin
2 Monk
2 Fighter
2 Rogue
3 Cleric
1 Rogue
7 Fighter

8 STR - No Armor to carry
18 DEX - AC and Attacks
8 CON - Don’t get hit
5 INT - Not smart
18 WIS - Street Smarts
18 CHA - Diplomacy and stuff

- Keep increasing Dexterity for AC, Attack bonus, Reflex Save, or...
- Keep increasing Wisdom for AC, Bonus Spells, Will Save, or...
- Keep increasing Charisma for Diplomacy, All Save Bonus, and Laying on Hands

Diplomacy is the alternate win as Paladin, Monk, Cleric, and Rogue all have Diplomacy

Paladin gets you +2 synergy bonus with 5 Ranks in Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty)

All others have Sense Motive for another +2 synergy bonus.

Rogue and Cleric (Trickery Domain) get you the last +2 synergy bonus with Bluff.

Take Skill Focus for +3 and your Diplomacy modifier is into the +20’s by 10th Level.

Leveling up you will get at least 2 Skill points at each level. 1 for the Class and 1 for being Human.

You either Bow spec or Dual-Wield with Weapon Finesse using weapons built for Critical Hits like Kukris of Burst’ing or dual wield a pair of Rapiers of Punctuating (Intended Pun for making a point.).

You don’t wear armor so you can save money and place it on other things that are easily hidden, but take 5 Ranks in Tumble for when you need to boost that AC by +3/+6 instead of the +2/+4 for fighting defensively or full round defensive movement. You’ll quickly never want armor again.

You still can wear armor, you just lose the Wisdom bonus to AC, which leads to the next build.

Spoiler: Non-DEX Mount Build

Show

5 Paladin - Get that Mount
2 Fighter
3 Cleric
2 Fighter
2 Cleric - All the way to 5th for Crafting
6 Fighter

STATS
18 STR - Swing Away with Armor
8 DEX - Armor tank
12 CON - +1 wow
5 INT - Not smart
14 WIS - Level 3 Spells and 2 Bonus Spells
18 CHA - Shift to CON as wanted.

With this, you lose the freedom of no armor.

Still not really a caster

Spoiler: Unicorns and Flying Ponies

Show

5 Paladin
2 Ranger
3 Fighter
2 Ranger
1 Fighter
7 Ranger

17 STR - Pick a stat to make this 18
10 DEX - You wear armor
12 CON - +1
5 INT - Not smart
13 WIS - 3rd Level Spells
18 CHA - Saves and Laying on Hands

This is build has no xp penalty, but if you were willing to take an xp penalty while leveling, you could end up with a Dex based melee and a no armor build.

5 Paladin / 2 Monk / 4 Fighter / 9 Ranger

This really isn’t great, but it does give you Paladin Mount with Animal Companion, and no armor.

You could drop Weapon Specialization and just go...

5 Paladin / 4 Monk / 11 Ranger

It could be done with only having 1 single level of xp penalized if you start with 2 Levels of Ranger.

I once built a Gimped Cleric that didn’t access the higher spells, because I didn’t make it to 20, but was better protected and played like a cloth priest instead of an armored cleric.

Spoiler: No Armor DEX Caster Build

Show

1 Monk
2 Paladin
17 Cleric

8 STR - No Armor to carry
18 DEX - AC
12 CON - +1 wow
5 INT - Not smart
18 WIS - AC and Spells
14 CHA - Saves and Diplomacy

This is clearly inferior to a straight Cleric build as far as casting, but as you increase Wisdom and dump gold into buffing that stat your AC and Spell ability improves. You could even drop Paladin and just take one level in Monk.

If I did that, I would have done 1 Monk / 19 Cleric with your 75 points of stats like...

8 STR - No Armor to carry
18 DEX - AC, Sling Mastery
18 CON - +4 Amazing!
5 INT - Not smart
18 WIS - AC and Spells
8 CHA - Not the life of the party.

People will point out that Armor with Enchantments and a Shield with Enchantments are far superior than this, but when you realize that you need to have armor and shield with bonuses, and then buff your Wisdom separately.

You start with AC 18 at level 1 against touch attacks.

When you spend your earnings, you can purchase bonuses to stats, and you can be a better caster, then you can be a crafter and place Magic Vestments on your clothes for Armor without losing the Monk Bonus.

It isn’t that bad of a difference, but if you ever need to adventure not having armor such as being held captive or being allowed near a high value target it helps.

As for playing a caster where good gods have been lessened, that is something I didn’t ask about.

Not sure what LG gods you have, but I’d make an argument for:

The unknown god
Domains: Good, Healing, Travel, & Trickery
Spheres:

• All
• Guardian
• Healing
• Protection (Partial - Level 0-3)
• Sun (Partial - Level 0-3)
• Weather (Partial - Level 0-3)

Ask to add the following spells to Guardian:
Alarm & Hold Portal (1st)
Phantom Trap & Web (2nd)
Explosive Runes (3rd)
Fire Trap & Illusionary Wall (4th)
Mage’s Private Sanctum (5th)
Guards and Wards (6th)
Reverse Gravity (7th)
Dimensional Lock (8th)

Some are Wizard spells, but why Silence is in that sphere I’ll have no Idea, it makes more sense in the Protection sphere, but the Guardian sphere looks like an afterthought of spells that don’t fit other spheres. It needs filled, and what better than to fill it with Wizard spells that match the motif of Guarding a location.

While Travel could be any alignment; clearly Trickery isn’t usually a LG domain, but here is how you make your case...

Spoiler: Trickery, Guardian, Travel

Show

He has the domain through being wiser than the other gods His actions and plans seem to trick all who seek Him and his followers harm, including other gods. It is through this well intentioned means and not nefarious means that he has gained the Trickery.

A little unknown fact is that the original 3 Little Pigs story had the wolf eating the first two pigs, then the wolf who couldn’t break the protection of the strong brick house tried to trick the 3rd Pig into a trap multiple times but the Pig was wise and did not fall into the trap, despite Traveling outside of the brick home. Instead he outsmarted the wolf on each attempt, leading the wolf to become furious and enraged. No longer thinking straight, the wolf fell into the Pig’s trap and was eaten by the Pig.

Your god is the same teachings from the story of the three little pigs. I’d argue Protection as not a partial, but it is moot for your character if you go with the melee versions, also it could be an issue if you take Leadership and your Cohort is a 100% full Cleric.

I know this was a lot, so hopefully it gives you ideas.

[bean illus]

War would still be better than Law, IMO, because it has a better domain granted ability with the Weapon Focus.

I stand corrected. Thank you.

The Law Devotion [Domain] feat however, does grant a swift +3 sacred bonus. Then the question becomes, do you want a +1 against opponents you're already beating, or a +3 when you really need it.

[Troacctid]

I stand corrected. Thank you.

The Law Devotion [Domain] feat however, does grant a swift +3 sacred bonus. Then the question becomes, do you want a +1 against opponents you're already beating, or a +3 when you really need it.

What Law Devotion feat? I don't see it in the allowed sources.

[bean illus]

What Law Devotion feat? I don't see it in the allowed sources.

I'll assume that you're teasing me, and that you know exactly which "Law Devotion" feat (I've been informed that, on this site, teasing is bad form).

However, you are correct, that i have slipped from confusing law domain with law devotion, to forgetting the limit on allowed sources.

[SpicyBoi_Nezu]

I'm just gonna throw in this build, just because there are some interesting exotic weapons, that's all

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...5-Kitchen-Sink

Haberdash the Masked - Got Proficiency in all Exotic weapons

[Maat Mons]

Looks like I'm really late to this thread.

I'll echo others on several points. There aren't enough good feats in core to justify taking very many Fighter levels. Cleric and Sorcerer are still viable with these changes.

I wouldn't worry about that whole "quests from your deity" thing with Clerics. Playing D&D, you're going to be going on quests. What does it matter if the DM gives them to you via your deity instead of some old man in a tavern?

Now let me express and opinion that might raise some eyebrows: your DM's nerfs to spellcasters encourage more people to play spellcasters.

That probably sounds pretty counter-intuitive, but hear me out. The game assumes you have access to various magical effects. Various monsters and other challenges kind of necessitate certain spells. In a standard game, a party with a Cleric and a Wizard can cover all those bases. That leaves everyone else free to play whatever they want, and when magic is necessary, the Cleric and Wizard have it handled.

But with these houserules, each spellcaster has a more limited scope. That means you need more spellcasters to ensure all your bases are covered. I mean, you don't want to encounter an incorporeal creature, and not have a single party member that can effect incorporeal creatures (or whatever), now do you?

Not only do these changes necessitate an all-caster party, they also facilitate it. What I mean is, Cleric + Druid + Sorcerer + Wizard was already a great party under the normal rules, but a lot of people wouldn't like to play that way because there's so much overlap in what everyone can do. People want to feel unique. But since no one caster can do everything with these nerfs, you can now have an all-caster party with each character still bringing something to the table that none of the others had access to.

So this attempt at reducing the prevalence of magic in the game encourages more use of magic. There's no use in fighting it. Embrace the magical elements of fantasy. Without them it wouldn't really be fantasy anyway.

[Mykerinos]

Spoiler: Question/Answers

Show

1. Are you using 3.0 or 3.5 PHB?
   
   Answer: 3.5
   .
2. Are you going to be allowed to Multi-Class?
   
   Answer: Yes
   .
3. Can you take Prestige Classes?
   
   Answer: No
   .
4. If so, are Prestige Classes limited to the DMG? 3.0 or 3.5?
   
   N/A
   .
5. Can you take Feats from other books that are not your Fighter Bonus Feats?
   
   Answer: No
   .
6. What alignment is most of the party?
   
   Answer: Party average is Lawful Neutral (ranges from Chotic Good to Lawful Evil). I am considering Lawful Evil or Lawful Neutral.
   .
7. Would going LG be a problem?
   
   Answer: Yes, because in the GMs world, the good and neutral deities have lost power which means that clerics of good and neutral deities suffer a caster level Malus and suffer a caster level Malus.

I know that you are leaning against LG because of caster level, but if you are not really a caster it doesn’t really impact you, right?

A LG character if played well has the ability to tie the CG character to the LE character better than a N character would, as the LG will understand the Drive of the CG, and the LE’s desire for order.

Going LG opens up options as a mainly Fighter/Melee class by grabbing levels in Paladin, as does just being Lawful for picking up a few Levels in Monk to help with protections.

Our Group plays mostly PHB only, so building off of it is something I’m used to, but we can access Prestige Classes. Unfortunately you are using 3.5, not 3.0 where you can really abuse Ranger as you level up.

I would recommend mostly DEX based melee characters, either Bow or Weapon Finesse build, maybe dual-wield, possibly a critical based build.

Thus your character Dips into lots of classes for all the good early abilities.

Spoiler: Class Dips by Advantage

Show

PALADIN
3 Paladin - Protections, Save Bonus, Laying on Hands
+1 Paladin - For 1st Level Spells (L. Restoration & Pro. Evil)
+1 Paladin - For Mount

NOTE: This dip is amazing for what it provides in 3 Levels, and an extra 2 levels don’t hurt a melee class if you can work in the mount. Once you end your leveling in this class you are done, so it is usually your first few levels, but you can also take it if all classes are level 2 or less. You can start with Rogue or another class for the Skill Points and then the next 3 in Paladin.


RANGER
2 Ranger - Basically Track and Combat Style Bonus Feat, but also Favorite Enemy.
+2 Ranger - For 1st Level Spells (Pass w/o Trace & Resist Energy) and Animal Companion

NOTE: Why not have two mounts if combined with 5 Levels of Paladin? Play a LG Female character and make the DM tell you that you can’t have both a Pegasus and a Unicorn!!! LOL


MONK
2 Monk - 2x Bonus Feats, Saves, Evasion, AC Bonus
+1 Monk - +10 to base movement
+1 Monk - Last +1 to all saves, 1d8 Unarmed, Ki (Magic) strike.

NOTE: Monk is really just dipped for the Wisdom AC Bonus to wear no armor, but the Saves, early Evasion, and extra base movement are bonus. I’ve never done more than two levels, but I would never justify more than 4. This is another class that once you stop leveling, you’re done so these two levels need to be planned.


ROGUE
2 Rogue - +1d6 SA and Evasion
+1 Rogue - +1d6 SA
+1 Rogue - Uncanny Dodge

NOTE: Rogue is a Skill Point filler class, so a Level here and there can catch skill ranks back to max. Also, some DM’s allow Evasion to stack with previous earned Evasion Abilities to become Improved Evasion much like Uncanny Dodge becoming Improved Uncanny Dodge. Up to 4 Levels, unless you are doing a build for SA then maybe 7 or 8 Levels.


CLERIC
3 Cleric - For 2nd Level Spells (Basically only Silence, but also Shield Other and Buffs), Travel Domain Special Ability, and Trickery Domain Invisibility Spell.
+2 Cleric - To Meet Caster Level Requirement for Craft Magical Arms & Weapons, and Fly Spell from Travel Domain

NOTE: Obscuring Mist/Fog Cloud with Blind Fighting or Faerie Fire (in Weather Sphere) is another Combat advantage other than Silencing a caster in your proximity.


FIGHTER
4 Fighter - Weapon Specialization and Bonus Feats

NOTE: The free exotic weapons and extra bonus feats aren’t worth going straight Fighter. 4 Levels pretty much gets the best out of this.

Depending on what your play styles are, You could take some or even all. Obviously, Human is the best race for this.

Some interesting builds; 1st is like one of my cohorts who is dual wielding crit machine.

Spoiler: No Armor Combat DEX Build

Show

3 Paladin
2 Monk
2 Fighter
2 Rogue
3 Cleric
1 Rogue
7 Fighter

8 STR - No Armor to carry
18 DEX - AC and Attacks
8 CON - Don’t get hit
5 INT - Not smart
18 WIS - Street Smarts
18 CHA - Diplomacy and stuff

- Keep increasing Dexterity for AC, Attack bonus, Reflex Save, or...
- Keep increasing Wisdom for AC, Bonus Spells, Will Save, or...
- Keep increasing Charisma for Diplomacy, All Save Bonus, and Laying on Hands

Diplomacy is the alternate win as Paladin, Monk, Cleric, and Rogue all have Diplomacy

Paladin gets you +2 synergy bonus with 5 Ranks in Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty)

All others have Sense Motive for another +2 synergy bonus.

Rogue and Cleric (Trickery Domain) get you the last +2 synergy bonus with Bluff.

Take Skill Focus for +3 and your Diplomacy modifier is into the +20’s by 10th Level.

Leveling up you will get at least 2 Skill points at each level. 1 for the Class and 1 for being Human.

You either Bow spec or Dual-Wield with Weapon Finesse using weapons built for Critical Hits like Kukris of Burst’ing or dual wield a pair of Rapiers of Punctuating (Intended Pun for making a point.).

You don’t wear armor so you can save money and place it on other things that are easily hidden, but take 5 Ranks in Tumble for when you need to boost that AC by +3/+6 instead of the +2/+4 for fighting defensively or full round defensive movement. You’ll quickly never want armor again.

You still can wear armor, you just lose the Wisdom bonus to AC, which leads to the next build.

Spoiler: Non-DEX Mount Build

Show

5 Paladin - Get that Mount
2 Fighter
3 Cleric
2 Fighter
2 Cleric - All the way to 5th for Crafting
6 Fighter

STATS
18 STR - Swing Away with Armor
8 DEX - Armor tank
12 CON - +1 wow
5 INT - Not smart
14 WIS - Level 3 Spells and 2 Bonus Spells
18 CHA - Shift to CON as wanted.

With this, you lose the freedom of no armor.

Still not really a caster

Spoiler: Unicorns and Flying Ponies

Show

5 Paladin
2 Ranger
3 Fighter
2 Ranger
1 Fighter
7 Ranger

17 STR - Pick a stat to make this 18
10 DEX - You wear armor
12 CON - +1
5 INT - Not smart
13 WIS - 3rd Level Spells
18 CHA - Saves and Laying on Hands

This is build has no xp penalty, but if you were willing to take an xp penalty while leveling, you could end up with a Dex based melee and a no armor build.

5 Paladin / 2 Monk / 4 Fighter / 9 Ranger

This really isn’t great, but it does give you Paladin Mount with Animal Companion, and no armor.

You could drop Weapon Specialization and just go...

5 Paladin / 4 Monk / 11 Ranger

It could be done with only having 1 single level of xp penalized if you start with 2 Levels of Ranger.

I once built a Gimped Cleric that didn’t access the higher spells, because I didn’t make it to 20, but was better protected and played like a cloth priest instead of an armored cleric.

Spoiler: No Armor DEX Caster Build

Show

1 Monk
2 Paladin
17 Cleric

8 STR - No Armor to carry
18 DEX - AC
12 CON - +1 wow
5 INT - Not smart
18 WIS - AC and Spells
14 CHA - Saves and Diplomacy

This is clearly inferior to a straight Cleric build as far as casting, but as you increase Wisdom and dump gold into buffing that stat your AC and Spell ability improves. You could even drop Paladin and just take one level in Monk.

If I did that, I would have done 1 Monk / 19 Cleric with your 75 points of stats like...

8 STR - No Armor to carry
18 DEX - AC, Sling Mastery
18 CON - +4 Amazing!
5 INT - Not smart
18 WIS - AC and Spells
8 CHA - Not the life of the party.

People will point out that Armor with Enchantments and a Shield with Enchantments are far superior than this, but when you realize that you need to have armor and shield with bonuses, and then buff your Wisdom separately.

You start with AC 18 at level 1 against touch attacks.

When you spend your earnings, you can purchase bonuses to stats, and you can be a better caster, then you can be a crafter and place Magic Vestments on your clothes for Armor without losing the Monk Bonus.

It isn’t that bad of a difference, but if you ever need to adventure not having armor such as being held captive or being allowed near a high value target it helps.

As for playing a caster where good gods have been lessened, that is something I didn’t ask about.

Not sure what LG gods you have, but I’d make an argument for:

The unknown god
Domains: Good, Healing, Travel, & Trickery
Spheres:

• All
• Guardian
• Healing
• Protection (Partial - Level 0-3)
• Sun (Partial - Level 0-3)
• Weather (Partial - Level 0-3)

Ask to add the following spells to Guardian:
Alarm & Hold Portal (1st)
Phantom Trap & Web (2nd)
Explosive Runes (3rd)
Fire Trap & Illusionary Wall (4th)
Mage’s Private Sanctum (5th)
Guards and Wards (6th)
Reverse Gravity (7th)
Dimensional Lock (8th)

Some are Wizard spells, but why Silence is in that sphere I’ll have no Idea, it makes more sense in the Protection sphere, but the Guardian sphere looks like an afterthought of spells that don’t fit other spheres. It needs filled, and what better than to fill it with Wizard spells that match the motif of Guarding a location.

While Travel could be any alignment; clearly Trickery isn’t usually a LG domain, but here is how you make your case...

Spoiler: Trickery, Guardian, Travel

Show

He has the domain through being wiser than the other gods His actions and plans seem to trick all who seek Him and his followers harm, including other gods. It is through this well intentioned means and not nefarious means that he has gained the Trickery.

A little unknown fact is that the original 3 Little Pigs story had the wolf eating the first two pigs, then the wolf who couldn’t break the protection of the strong brick house tried to trick the 3rd Pig into a trap multiple times but the Pig was wise and did not fall into the trap, despite Traveling outside of the brick home. Instead he outsmarted the wolf on each attempt, leading the wolf to become furious and enraged. No longer thinking straight, the wolf fell into the Pig’s trap and was eaten by the Pig.

Your god is the same teachings from the story of the three little pigs. I’d argue Protection as not a partial, but it is moot for your character if you go with the melee versions, also it could be an issue if you take Leadership and your Cohort is a 100% full Cleric.

I know this was a lot, so hopefully it gives you ideas.

Thanks a lot for this great amount of information. I understand your arguments for multiclassing. If I hadn't already decided to go full cleric, I would definitely consider your suggestions. If my cleric should meet and untimely end, I will come back here and try one of the options you recommended.

As for Paladin - there are none in my GM's world. The good Gods are all but dead.

Thanks again for your input - it's greatly appreciated.

[Mykerinos]

Looks like I'm really late to this thread.

I'll echo others on several points. There aren't enough good feats in core to justify taking very many Fighter levels. Cleric and Sorcerer are still viable with these changes.

I wouldn't worry about that whole "quests from your deity" thing with Clerics. Playing D&D, you're going to be going on quests. What does it matter if the DM gives them to you via your deity instead of some old man in a tavern?

Now let me express and opinion that might raise some eyebrows: your DM's nerfs to spellcasters encourage more people to play spellcasters.

That probably sounds pretty counter-intuitive, but hear me out. The game assumes you have access to various magical effects. Various monsters and other challenges kind of necessitate certain spells. In a standard game, a party with a Cleric and a Wizard can cover all those bases. That leaves everyone else free to play whatever they want, and when magic is necessary, the Cleric and Wizard have it handled.

But with these houserules, each spellcaster has a more limited scope. That means you need more spellcasters to ensure all your bases are covered. I mean, you don't want to encounter an incorporeal creature, and not have a single party member that can effect incorporeal creatures (or whatever), now do you?

Not only do these changes necessitate an all-caster party, they also facilitate it. What I mean is, Cleric + Druid + Sorcerer + Wizard was already a great party under the normal rules, but a lot of people wouldn't like to play that way because there's so much overlap in what everyone can do. People want to feel unique. But since no one caster can do everything with these nerfs, you can now have an all-caster party with each character still bringing something to the table that none of the others had access to.

So this attempt at reducing the prevalence of magic in the game encourages more use of magic. There's no use in fighting it. Embrace the magical elements of fantasy. Without them it wouldn't really be fantasy anyway.

The group will have a fighter, a monk, a rouge, a sorcerer and a cleric. So, no more magic users than usual. But yes, I understand what you are saying. To cover the same scope of abilities one magic user could cover in a conventional D&D scenario, we would now need 3 or so. That's a good think, I feel. It's a bit boring if everyone is a superhero who doesn't need to rely on teamwork.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts!

[Mykerinos]

War would still be better than Law, IMO, because it has a better domain granted ability with the Weapon Focus.

Yes, I believe you are right. I need those two feats War domain grants. Just a pity that there is such a broad spell overlap between war domain and combat sphere.

What are your thought on feats. Improved initiative and combat reflexes have been suggested. Would you agree with those choices?

Also, do you think going for high DEX (trip and reach) makes sense for a combat cleric? Which attribute distribution would you recommend?

Many thanks for your help!

[Troacctid]

Yes, I believe you are right. I need those two feats War domain grants. Just a pity that there is such a broad spell overlap between war domain and combat sphere.

Well, let's look at your domain slots.
1. Burning hands or magic weapon. Both kind of so-so, but I'd probably pick burning hands more often.
2. Produce flame or spiritual weapon. You'll pick spiritual weapon 100% of the time here because it's just better.
3. Resist energy (fire or cold) or magic vestment. Both good, most likely you'll pick magic vestment more often, but you're happy with either.
4. Wall of fire or divine power. I would almost always pick the wall here, it's just a fantastic spell.
5. Fire shield or flame strike. This one is an easy flame strike, I think.
6. Fire seeds or blade barrier. Both solid blasting spells, but the damage on those holly berries is so absurd that I think it's hard to turn down.
7. Fire storm or power word blind. This slot is more of a 50/50, I think. They're both good against different types of encounters.
8. Incendiary cloud vs. power word stun. Basically the same as 7.
9. Elemental swarm (fire) or power word kill. They both kinda suck, so who cares, do whatever.

So if we look at the spells that are in the Combat sphere, they're at the level 1, 2, 4, and 5 slots. For 1 and 4, I think you actively prefer to have the fire spell in your domain slot, so if you want to cast those spells, it's good to have access to them in normal slots. And for 2 and 5, they're both spells that you're fairly happy to have in multiples because they stack well with themselves. I don't think the overlap is a problem. I think if you want the combat sphere, this particular combination of domains does not make it less viable. Whether you want the combat sphere is an open question—without an easy way to quicken or persist your buff spells, is it even worth taking a round off to buff yourself, compared to just blasting them in the face with fire? I'd be more inclined to take it as a partial sphere, to be honest. Get those ability enhancer spells for when you eventually take Craft Wondrous Item, maybe you'll prepare prayer or spiritual weapon and cast them sometimes, and at high levels, you can put a quickened divine favor in a 5th-level slot.

What are your thought on feats. Improved initiative and combat reflexes have been suggested. Would you agree with those choices?

Also, do you think going for high DEX (trip and reach) makes sense for a combat cleric? Which attribute distribution would you recommend?

Unless your DM has houserules nerfing them, I think crafting feats are a slam dunk. Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wand, and Craft Staff are all pretty good on clerics, traditionally.

You'll want metamagic feats, but not necessarily early on. Extend Spell is good for buffs, Quicken Spell is good for action economy, Empower Spell is good for blasting.

Improved Trip is pretty good, but you want high Strength for it, not Dex. I don't think you need more than the 12 Dex to max out your AC in full plate. Yeah, Combat Reflexes, but you won't be making more than two AoOs in a round all that often. Did we find out what the favored weapon for your deity is? I tend to like to play toward that—for example, if they favor the guisarme or heavy flail, then yeah, Improved Trip, and maybe even Improved Disarm too, if there's space. If they favor the short sword or kukri, then maybe Two-Weapon Fighting and Improved Critical are more in the cards. If they favor the greatsword or greataxe, we might be more in Power Attack and Cleave territory.

Regardless of combat style, Improved Initiative is always going to be fine, and I'd say it is a good filler feat if you don't have anything better to put in that slot. It does its best work if you're doing things like blasting or battlefield control and you can take enemies out of the fight before they can do anything useful. But it's also never going to be important to a build the way some other feats are, so you'll often see it get bumped.

So, overall, I'd say combat feats at low to mid levels, casting feats at mid to high levels.

[bean illus]

What are your thought on feats. Improved initiative and combat reflexes have been suggested. Would you agree with those choices?

Also, do you think going for high DEX (trip and reach) makes sense for a combat cleric? Which attribute distribution would you recommend?

Well, ...
..., I think crafting feats are a slam dunk. Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wand, and Craft Staff are all pretty good on clerics, traditionally.

You'll want metamagic feats, but not necessarily early on. Extend Spell is good for buffs, Quicken Spell is good for action economy, Empower Spell is good for blasting.

Improved Trip is pretty good, but you want high Strength for it, not Dex. ...

So, overall, I'd say combat feats at low to mid levels, casting feats at mid to high levels.

I agree with the advice on spell casting and stats. But, you will have to make a final decision on either full caster, or beefed up fighter.

Tripping needs BAB, Str, size, 3+ feats, magic, and Dex. Being short on any 2 of those, and you shoulda put your resources elsewhere.
As cleric BAB falls behind you'll want to cast divine power. And you'll need your Str as high as you can afford.

Maybe just skip tripping, but maybe just build the tripper.

Human fighter 1 / cleric 19
16 12 14 - 14 14 8
... or ...
16 12 12 - 14 15 8

H Combat Expertise
1 Improved Trip
F Improved Initiative
3 Combat Reflexes or Power Attack
6 Craft Wondrous Item or Power Attack
9 Extend Spell
12 Quicken Spell

I think that might trip until upper mid levels (and trips at 1st level). Take advantage of EWP, and get a spiked chain for reach, and a heavy flail for bludgeoning. You're praying for access to Enlarge Person, even if only in potions for the BossEvilGuy.
You also get Quicken asap for Divine Favor.

Edit: Strike through, due to being corrected below.

[Troacctid]

I agree with the advice on spell casting and stats. But, you will have to make a final decision on either full caster, or beefed up fighter.

I disagree. I think you can easily gear yourself towards fighting early on and then transition to more of a casting focus later.

Tripping also doesn't care nearly as much about BAB as grappling or disarming. All you have to do is hit with a melee touch attack, and then BAB doesn't factor at all into the opposed check. Sure, multiple attacks on a full attack are nice, but they're not important to the strategy.

[bean illus]

I disagree. I think you can easily gear yourself towards fighting early on and then transition to more of a casting focus later.

Tripping also doesn't care nearly as much about BAB as grappling or disarming. All you have to do is hit with a melee touch attack, and then BAB doesn't factor at all into the opposed check. Sure, multiple attacks on a full attack are nice, but they're not important to the strategy.

Sure, there's always your idea. Sorta like the (almost) perfect middle. Call it what you'd like.

But there are minor adjustments in allocation of build resource between the polarities (imo). I just gave an example. I mention it partly because Mykerinos started the thread asking about fighter.

And a tripper without decent BAB does what when tripping doesn't work? Luckily, divine power exists. Sure, it's not always needed, but by 9th level a straight cleric is 3 BAB behind. If your confident of hitting, then power attack.

But I'm sure I'm wrong. I always am. I'm frankly embarrassed every time i write on this forum, and constantly debate with myself whether i should never post here again.

It's kinda pitiful that i think that every day for a decade.

Edit: strike through, due to corrections below.

[Troacctid]

And a tripper without decent BAB does what when tripping doesn't work?

I mean...spells, yeah? That's one of the biggest advantages of being a gish: you can beat people with a stick almost as well as the dedicated beatsticks, but you also just have all this really powerful magic there in your back pocket when you need it. Get a spell-storing weapon in there and you can even combine the two in a single action.

[bean illus]

I mean...spells, yeah? That's one of the biggest advantages of being a gish: you can beat people with a stick almost as well as the dedicated beatsticks, but you also just have all this really powerful magic there in your back pocket when you need it. Get a spell-storing weapon in there and you can even combine the two in a single action.

I ...
... nevermind. I truly apologize.

Why do i come here? I always feel stupid.

What can i say? You're 100% right, and everything i wrote is totally without any merit, or sense.
Maybe my embarrassment will save some other fool the temptation to speak.

[MR_Anderson]

Thanks a lot for this great amount of information. I understand your arguments for multiclassing. If I hadn't already decided to go full cleric, I would definitely consider your suggestions. If my cleric should meet and untimely end, I will come back here and try one of the options you recommended.

As for Paladin - there are none in my GM's world. The good Gods are all but dead.

Thanks again for your input - it's greatly appreciated.

Absolutely, I kind of realized it was a mini primer that could even be its own thread on how to best multi-class with only the PHB.about 1/2 way through.

I am just glad that it was appreciated.

Now, you say that the good Gods are all but dead do ya?

Well they are either dead or they are lacking in fulfilling their duties right. Usually God have rolls that they must fulfill with an higher God over everything like AO in some worlds.

Of course this is a custom world, but if you do play a LG character, I’d might recommend this back story...

We’ll call him Luke.

Spoiler: Back Story

Show

Luke starts off on his path of trying to be a beacon of goodness (Paladin) and through his research or paths crosses with an ex-paladin he learns that the good Gods are dead and don’t answer or give powers anymore. This causes Luke to go into depression.

He is crushed as he thought he could have done something good for the world, but now he can’t. This leads him to fall, becoming a brawler (Fighter) and thief (Rogue) for a time, before taking time to reflect on how far he has fallen.

Or...

He decides to take some time and reflect on the purpose of life and who he is. He crosses paths with a traveling monk and it prompts him in a new direction in life. It is short lived, but during his time he’s learned why he had power as a Paladin. His soul was the beacon giving him the powers of a Paladin.

Luke sets out with this bravado that he’s on a mission. If the good gods aren’t dead he’s going to find them, but if they are...

...He’s going to replace them, because someone needs to do something.

Luke not knowing that he has placed himself on a collision course with the evil gods, and will soon find out that his destiny to restore goodness to the world will also lead to more order and balance for once. It will not be an easy path to walk.

As he gains followers (Leadership) and even a dedicated Priest (Cohort) who seemingly can work more and more miracles with their followers. He realizes all the power of the souls seeking the same goodness is starting to break the hold darkness has on the world.

Finally the day comes when evil has had enough and rallies their forces.

Is Luke victorious rising himself to godhood, or does he die a martyr’s death having laid the foundation for training 100’s of Beacon Knights and Priests (1-4 Levels of Monk and the rest Paladin or Cleric) so that many will carry on the fight?

Find out next time...

I love challenges, I’d probably talk to the DM and find out if there is a hope of changing things, or if it is a waste and he won’t let something like that happen.

[Mykerinos]

[QUOTE]

Well, let's look at your domain slots.
1. Burning hands or magic weapon. Both kind of so-so, but I'd probably pick burning hands more often.
2. Produce flame or spiritual weapon. You'll pick spiritual weapon 100% of the time here because it's just better.
3. Resist energy (fire or cold) or magic vestment. Both good, most likely you'll pick magic vestment more often, but you're happy with either.
4. Wall of fire or divine power. I would almost always pick the wall here, it's just a fantastic spell.
5. Fire shield or flame strike. This one is an easy flame strike, I think.
6. Fire seeds or blade barrier. Both solid blasting spells, but the damage on those holly berries is so absurd that I think it's hard to turn down.
7. Fire storm or power word blind. This slot is more of a 50/50, I think. They're both good against different types of encounters.
8. Incendiary cloud vs. power word stun. Basically the same as 7.
9. Elemental swarm (fire) or power word kill. They both kinda suck, so who cares, do whatever.

So if we look at the spells that are in the Combat sphere, they're at the level 1, 2, 4, and 5 slots. For 1 and 4, I think you actively prefer to have the fire spell in your domain slot, so if you want to cast those spells, it's good to have access to them in normal slots. And for 2 and 5, they're both spells that you're fairly happy to have in multiples because they stack well with themselves. I don't think the overlap is a problem. I think if you want the combat sphere, this particular combination of domains does not make it less viable.

Okay, true - considering that, the impact on spell variety is really limited.

Whether you want the combat sphere is an open question—without an easy way to quicken or persist your buff spells, is it even worth taking a round off to buff yourself, compared to just blasting them in the face with fire?

What exactly do you mean by "without an easy way to quicken or persist"? Quicken and persist remain options for later on, right? Or do you think that's unrealistic to achieve with a combat cleric because of the required melee feats?
And how about divine metamagic - is that an option to help power the metamagic feats or would it require a lot more CHA etc. for more turn attempts to work properly? I know there are also ways to abuse DM, but our GM will definitely not tolerate that.

I'd be more inclined to take it as a partial sphere, to be honest.

Yes. That's good advice, I think. Especially, since the GM just announced that he will expand the level range of partial spheres to include L4 spells :-)

So, which full sphere would you recommend instead of combat? Elemental? Astral (good high level "escape" options but very few spells in total)? Necromancy? Plant and Animal are not possible (most to most perhaps as partial domains).

I originally wanted to go for: Combat, Protection, Healing and Summoning (full spheres) and: Charm, Elemental, Divination, Weather (partial/ L0 - 4). What would be your choices, also in the light of the expanded level range of the partial domains? Also, if you feel combat sphere/buffs are not really a good choice because I can't quicken/persist them, should I perhaps go for a pure caster instead (and get 2 additional full and 2 partial domains)? However, that would mean a d6 hit die and no heavy armor...

Get those ability enhancer spells for when you eventually take Craft Wondrous Item, maybe you'll prepare prayer or spiritual weapon and cast them sometimes, and at high levels, you can put a quickened divine favor in a 5th-level slot. Unless your DM has houserules nerfing them, I think crafting feats are a slam dunk. Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wand, and Craft Staff are all pretty good on clerics, traditionally.

I still have to read up on those crafting feats, don't know how they work. They are probably a good idea, especially since the GM said we won't have easy access to magical equipment.

You'll want metamagic feats, but not necessarily early on. Extend Spell is good for buffs, Quicken Spell is good for action economy, Empower Spell is good for blasting.

Yes, right. Wouldn't be useful early on.

Improved Trip is pretty good, but you want high Strength for it, not Dex. I don't think you need more than the 12 Dex to max out your AC in full plate. Yeah, Combat Reflexes, but you won't be making more than two AoOs in a round all that often. Did we find out what the favored weapon for your deity is? I tend to like to play toward that—for example, if they favor the guisarme or heavy flail, then yeah, Improved Trip, and maybe even Improved Disarm too, if there's space. If they favor the short sword or kukri, then maybe Two-Weapon Fighting and Improved Critical are more in the cards. If they favor the greatsword or greataxe, we might be more in Power Attack and Cleave territory.

So I have to decide on one route - Trip or Power Attack, right? Taking both would require too many feats, I suppose? Trip is a bit costlier, as far as I can tell, with its Combat Expertise/INT requirement (prerequisite for Improved Trip).

As for my deity's favored weapon - that's not set in stone, I believe. What is the best choice in your opinion? I would generally enjoy trip (and if possible reach) - so a flail or a guisarme sounds good, but if the costs for trip are too great, I am also fine with power attack/cleave only, i.e. a greatsword etc. I'm just wondering if power attack/greatsword is a good idea without full BAB (Divine Power is an option but takes a round to cast and quickened DP will only be available very late). What do you think is the most effective/sensible route, considering the character as a whole?

Regardless of combat style, Improved Initiative is always going to be fine, and I'd say it is a good filler feat if you don't have anything better to put in that slot. It does its best work if you're doing things like blasting or battlefield control and you can take enemies out of the fight before they can do anything useful. But it's also never going to be important to a build the way some other feats are, so you'll often see it get bumped.
So, overall, I'd say combat feats at low to mid levels, casting feats at mid to high levels.

So, depending which route I opt for, I could go for Power Attack and Improved Initiative (or Cleave?) or for Combat Expertise and Improved Trip at L1, right?

Here is what I have so far:

Human, Cleric

Full spheres: Elemental (or Combat), Healing, Protection, Summoning
Partial spheres (L1-L4): Combat (or Elemental), Charm, Weather, Divination

Power Attack route:
Str 18
Dex 8
Con 15
Int 10
Wis 18
Cha 6 (higher if I go for Divine Metamagic)

Feats: Power Attack, Improved Initiative (or Cleave?)

Skills: Concentration, Spellcraft, Knowledge Religion

Trip route:
Str 16
Dex 8
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 18
Cha 6 (higher if going for Divine Metamagic)

Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip

Skills: see above

Would that work or would you suggest something different?

Many thanks and sorry for the late reply!

[Mykerinos]

Absolutely, I kind of realized it was a mini primer that could even be its own thread on how to best multi-class with only the PHB.about 1/2 way through.

I am just glad that it was appreciated.

Now, you say that the good Gods are all but dead do ya?

Well they are either dead or they are lacking in fulfilling their duties right. Usually God have rolls that they must fulfill with an higher God over everything like AO in some worlds.

Of course this is a custom world, but if you do play a LG character, I’d might recommend this back story...

We’ll call him Luke.

Spoiler: Back Story

Show

Luke starts off on his path of trying to be a beacon of goodness (Paladin) and through his research or paths crosses with an ex-paladin he learns that the good Gods are dead and don’t answer or give powers anymore. This causes Luke to go into depression.

He is crushed as he thought he could have done something good for the world, but now he can’t. This leads him to fall, becoming a brawler (Fighter) and thief (Rogue) for a time, before taking time to reflect on how far he has fallen.

Or...

He decides to take some time and reflect on the purpose of life and who he is. He crosses paths with a traveling monk and it prompts him in a new direction in life. It is short lived, but during his time he’s learned why he had power as a Paladin. His soul was the beacon giving him the powers of a Paladin.

Luke sets out with this bravado that he’s on a mission. If the good gods aren’t dead he’s going to find them, but if they are...

...He’s going to replace them, because someone needs to do something.

Luke not knowing that he has placed himself on a collision course with the evil gods, and will soon find out that his destiny to restore goodness to the world will also lead to more order and balance for once. It will not be an easy path to walk.

As he gains followers (Leadership) and even a dedicated Priest (Cohort) who seemingly can work more and more miracles with their followers. He realizes all the power of the souls seeking the same goodness is starting to break the hold darkness has on the world.

Finally the day comes when evil has had enough and rallies their forces.

Is Luke victorious rising himself to godhood, or does he die a martyr’s death having laid the foundation for training 100’s of Beacon Knights and Priests (1-4 Levels of Monk and the rest Paladin or Cleric) so that many will carry on the fight?

Find out next time...

I love challenges, I’d probably talk to the DM and find out if there is a hope of changing things, or if it is a waste and he won’t let something like that happen.

Our GM is quite serious about the dominance of the evil gods I am afraid. And while I also enjoy challenges, I think playing a good cleric in this setting might end up a truly frustrating experience, especially with the kind of disadvantages he will have to deal with. But the idea is intriguing, and I was considering this option initially.

Thank you for your input :-)

[Mykerinos]

I ...
... nevermind. I truly apologize.

Why do i come here? I always feel stupid.

What can i say? You're 100% right, and everything i wrote is totally without any merit, or sense.
Maybe my embarrassment will save some other fool the temptation to speak.

Your input is appreciated, and I read through your suggestions. I am also still a bit unsure if starting with melee and then transitioning to casting will work as well as I hope, but I will give it a shot.

Many thanks and sorry for replying late.

[Troacctid]

What exactly do you mean by "without an easy way to quicken or persist"? Quicken and persist remain options for later on, right? Or do you think that's unrealistic to achieve with a combat cleric because of the required melee feats?
And how about divine metamagic - is that an option to help power the metamagic feats or would it require a lot more CHA etc. for more turn attempts to work properly? I know there are also ways to abuse DM, but our GM will definitely not tolerate that.

If the game is PHB only, then there is no Divine Metamagic and no Persistent Spell. They're not in the PHB, so they'd be unavailable, unless I missed something. Quicken Spell is in the PHB, but there aren't any ways to make it cheaper, so you'd have to do it the hard way by paying full retail for it.

Yes. That's good advice, I think. Especially, since the GM just announced that he will expand the level range of partial spheres to include L4 spells :-)

So, which full sphere would you recommend instead of combat? Elemental? Astral (good high level "escape" options but very few spells in total)? Necromancy? Plant and Animal are not possible (most to most perhaps as partial domains).

I originally wanted to go for: Combat, Protection, Healing and Summoning (full spheres) and: Charm, Elemental, Divination, Weather (partial/ L0 - 4). What would be your choices, also in the light of the expanded level range of the partial domains? Also, if you feel combat sphere/buffs are not really a good choice because I can't quicken/persist them, should I perhaps go for a pure caster instead (and get 2 additional full and 2 partial domains)? However, that would mean a d6 hit die and no heavy armor...

I think the best full spheres are Animal, Divination, Elemental, Healing, and Protection, with honorable mentions to Creation, Astral, Summoning, and Weather; and the best partial spheres are Animal, Charm, Combat, Divination, Elemental, Healing, Necromantic, Protection, and Weather. I think Animal is largely just better than Summoning. Elemental and Protection are both very good. Healing isn't as good when it's not spontaneous, but it still gives you the all-important restoration effects. (I notice lesser restoration is over in the Protection sphere and raise dead is in necromancy, but restoration, greater restoration, resurrection, and true resurrection are in Healing. That's weird, but whatever, I guess.) So if Animal isn't available as a full sphere, then my picks would be Divination, Elemental, Healing, and Protection, with Animal, Combat, Weather, and Necromantic as partials.

As for my deity's favored weapon - that's not set in stone, I believe. What is the best choice in your opinion? I would generally enjoy trip (and if possible reach) - so a flail or a guisarme sounds good, but if the costs for trip are too great, I am also fine with power attack/cleave only, i.e. a greatsword etc. I'm just wondering if power attack/greatsword is a good idea without full BAB (Divine Power is an option but takes a round to cast and quickened DP will only be available very late). What do you think is the most effective/sensible route, considering the character as a whole?

There are multiple viable options, but if reach tripping sounds more fun to you, the best weapon for it is the spiked chain, assuming exotic weapons are in the picture. If they're not, then the next best option is guisarme. (Heavy flail has its merits, but it obviously doesn't work with the reach build.) The key feats needed are Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Combat Reflexes. You can also throw in Power Attack if you want, since it is a two-handed weapon. Keep in mind that you do effectively have full BAB up through level 4, because Weapon Focus makes up for the point you missed at level 1.

Power Attack route:
Str 18
Dex 8
Con 15
Int 10
Wis 18
Cha 6 (higher if I go for Divine Metamagic)

Feats: Power Attack, Improved Initiative (or Cleave?)

Skills: Concentration, Spellcraft, Knowledge Religion

Trip route:
Str 16
Dex 8
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 18
Cha 6 (higher if going for Divine Metamagic)

Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip

Skills: see above

Would that work or would you suggest something different?

For a tripping build, Strength is more important than Wisdom at level 1. If you can only have 18 in one of the two, I would pick Strength. You'll eventually want more bonus slots for your high-level spells, but that won't come into play until many levels down the line. You're going to also want 12 Dex, as that'll let you hit the max Dex bonus for full plate and give you an extra AoO with Combat Reflexes. To make room, you can go down to 12 Con and 14 Wis. The lower Wisdom will hurt later on, but that's a problem for Future Mykerinos. Right now, Present Mykerinos isn't casting spells that require saves and doesn't care about bonus 5th-level spell slots.

The Power Attack build doesn't care about Int at all, which would give you more flexible ability scores. You still want 12 Dex for AC purposes, but you can dump Int. I think you can still afford to keep Wis at 14 if you want to put some points in Charisma and make turn undead into a real ability. (It is legitimately clutch against undead, and undead are statistically the second most common enemy creature type in published adventures.)

[Mykerinos]

If the game is PHB only, then there is no Divine Metamagic and no Persistent Spell. They're not in the PHB, so they'd be unavailable, unless I missed something. Quicken Spell is in the PHB, but there aren't any ways to make it cheaper, so you'd have to do it the hard way by paying full retail for it.

You are right. I assumed DM is in PHB. Sorry for that.

I think the best full spheres are Animal, Divination, Elemental, Healing, and Protection, with honorable mentions to Creation, Astral, Summoning, and Weather; and the best partial spheres are Animal, Charm, Combat, Divination, Elemental, Healing, Necromantic, Protection, and Weather. I think Animal is largely just better than Summoning. Elemental and Protection are both very good. Healing isn't as good when it's not spontaneous, but it still gives you the all-important restoration effects. (I notice lesser restoration is over in the Protection sphere and raise dead is in necromancy, but restoration, greater restoration, resurrection, and true resurrection are in Healing. That's weird, but whatever, I guess.) So if Animal isn't available as a full sphere, then my picks would be Divination, Elemental, Healing, and Protection, with Animal, Combat, Weather, and Necromantic as partials.

Thank you. Sounds good. Just one question: what makes Animal (partial) so desirable (and better than Charm) in your opinion?

Also, with this choice of spheres, I would not have any high level summoning options. Might that be a problem? Why did you decide against Summoning - because there are too few spells? What I find interesting about Summoning is the Word of Recall. Seems like a great escape option.

There are multiple viable options, but if reach tripping sounds more fun to you, the best weapon for it is the spiked chain, assuming exotic weapons are in the picture. If they're not, then the next best option is guisarme. (Heavy flail has its merits, but it obviously doesn't work with the reach build.) The key feats needed are Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Combat Reflexes. You can also throw in Power Attack if you want, since it is a two-handed weapon. Keep in mind that you do effectively have full BAB up through level 4, because Weapon Focus makes up for the point you missed at level 1.

Talked to the GM and he wants the Greatsword for the deity. So it will be Power Attack and Improved Initiative (or Cleave?) for L1.

For a tripping build, Strength is more important than Wisdom at level 1. If you can only have 18 in one of the two, I would pick Strength. You'll eventually want more bonus slots for your high-level spells, but that won't come into play until many levels down the line. You're going to also want 12 Dex, as that'll let you hit the max Dex bonus for full plate and give you an extra AoO with Combat Reflexes. To make room, you can go down to 12 Con and 14 Wis. The lower Wisdom will hurt later on, but that's a problem for Future Mykerinos. Right now, Present Mykerinos isn't casting spells that require saves and doesn't care about bonus 5th-level spell slots.

No tripping, unfortunately. I could still do it of course, but the trip weapon wouldn't benefit from the Weapon Focus I get from War Domain then. Given that, is trip still a viable option, or would you skip it?

The Power Attack build doesn't care about Int at all, which would give you more flexible ability scores. You still want 12 Dex for AC purposes, but you can dump Int. I think you can still afford to keep Wis at 14 if you want to put some points in Charisma and make turn undead into a real ability. (It is legitimately clutch against undead, and undead are statistically the second most common enemy creature type in published adventures.)

I'll probably go for DEX 12 and also up CHA. Not sure if undead will pop up, but it would also improve my social skills. Would it make sense to put a few points in Diplomacy in that case?

I still have to negotiate with my GM about the domains. Once that's done, I'll return with a final character draft.

Thank you very much for all the valuable advice and your time!

[Troacctid]

Thank you. Sounds good. Just one question: what makes Animal (partial) so desirable (and better than Charm) in your opinion?

Also, with this choice of spheres, I would not have any high level summoning options. Might that be a problem? Why did you decide against Summoning - because there are too few spells? What I find interesting about Summoning is the Word of Recall. Seems like a great escape option.

SNA IV is particularly nice for its ability to summon unicorns. In general though, I don't think summoning spells are important. They're fine, but not something you need to prioritize. Obviously if you're going thaumaturgist, which is one of the classic powerful core-only builds, it's another story—but you're PHB-only, not core-only, so that's not an option.

Talked to the GM and he wants the Greatsword for the deity. So it will be Power Attack and Improved Initiative (or Cleave?) for L1.

No tripping, unfortunately. I could still do it of course, but the trip weapon wouldn't benefit from the Weapon Focus I get from War Domain then. Given that, is trip still a viable option, or would you skip it?

I'd start with Power Attack and Cleave. The greatsword strategy is going to be dealing the finishing blow pretty often.

I'll probably go for DEX 12 and also up CHA. Not sure if undead will pop up, but it would also improve my social skills. Would it make sense to put a few points in Diplomacy in that case?

Concentration should be your top priority. After that, you're most likely looking at maxing either Diplomacy or Spellcraft (whichever one isn't already covered by other party members), and possibly dropping 5 points in Knowledge (arcana) or Knowledge (religion) to snag the synergy bonuses.

[Mykerinos]

SNA IV is particularly nice for its ability to summon unicorns. In general though, I don't think summoning spells are important. They're fine, but not something you need to prioritize. Obviously if you're going thaumaturgist, which is one of the classic powerful core-only builds, it's another story—but you're PHB-only, not core-only, so that's not an option.


I'd start with Power Attack and Cleave. The greatsword strategy is going to be dealing the finishing blow pretty often.


Concentration should be your top priority. After that, you're most likely looking at maxing either Diplomacy or Spellcraft (whichever one isn't already covered by other party members), and possibly dropping 5 points in Knowledge (arcana) or Knowledge (religion) to snag the synergy bonuses.

Thanks a lot for the advice.

We had our first session of the new campaign yesterday.

At this point, I can probably still make minor adjustments to the character, so please feel free to comment on possible improvements.

Here is what I have:

Human, Cleric

Full spheres: Elemental, Healing, Protection, Divination
Partial spheres (L1-L4): Combat, Animal, Weather, Necromancy

Total points available: 75

Str 16 (is that sufficient or should I go for 18? Cleave is probably less viable with 16, right?)

Dex 12 (as suggested)

Con 11 (I had to reduce this to free up points. Since HP are increased retroactively when increasing CON later, I guess this is better than starting with lower INT etc.)

Int 10 (didn't want to dump it completely to get at least some skill points to increase Concentration, Diplomacy and Knowledge Religion to 4 each, does that make sense?)

Wis 16 (bit higher than your suggestion, but I would like to transition to full caster and am worried that starting with 14 might impact long-term viability. )

Cha 10 (you suggested I could not dump CHA to keep turn undead viable. I also might end up being party face with Diplomacy)

How would you have distributed the 75 points?

Feats: Power Attack, Improved Initiative. I took improved initiative because I am not sure about Cleave. I think it will primarily be useful during the first couple of levels. After that my kill ratio will probably drop compared to the fighter and I will start to transition towards casting, which means that Cleave would get triggered more and more rarely and Improved Initiative would be more helpful. Do you agree?

In terms of equipment, I took a chain shirt and got a greatsword for free. Do you have any advice regarding suitable initial equipment?

Thank you and have a nice Sunday!

[Anthrowhale]

Str 18 is much better than Str 16, because of the way damage rounding works. You can think of Str 18 as Str 16 + Weapon Focus + Weapon Specialization with a 2-handed weapon. That's pretty valuable.

Power Attack without Cleave at level 1 is pointless, because you have a base attack bonus of +0 so you can power attack for at most +0 damage. In terms of opening combat feats, I think it's one of three possibilities for melee which make sense:

1. Power Attack + Cleave + 2-handed weapon: get an extra attack whenever you drop someone. With a high strength and a 2-handed weapon, this is almost equivalent to doubling your attacks initially, and even at high levels it's reasonable to expect at least 1 extra attack/combat. Power attack also becomes useful against low-AC opponents at higher levels.
2. Improved Initiative + Combat Reflexes + Reach Weapon. You get a variable number of extra attacks in the first round before opponents can melee. This degrades with ranged combatants. Improved Initiative also remains useful forever.
3. Combat Expertise + Improved Trip + Tripping weapon. Prone with an extra attack is great. This degrades with particularly large/strong opponents.

[Mykerinos]

Str 18 is much better than Str 16, because of the way damage rounding works. You can think of Str 18 as Str 16 + Weapon Focus + Weapon Specialization with a 2-handed weapon. That's pretty valuable.

Power Attack without Cleave at level 1 is pointless, because you have a base attack bonus of +0 so you can power attack for at most +0 damage. In terms of opening combat feats, I think it's one of three possibilities for melee which make sense:

1. Power Attack + Cleave + 2-handed weapon: get an extra attack whenever you drop someone. With a high strength and a 2-handed weapon, this is almost equivalent to doubling your attacks initially, and even at high levels it's reasonable to expect at least 1 extra attack/combat. Power attack also becomes useful against low-AC opponents at higher levels.
2. Improved Initiative + Combat Reflexes + Reach Weapon. You get a variable number of extra attacks in the first round before opponents can melee. This degrades with ranged combatants. Improved Initiative also remains useful forever.
3. Combat Expertise + Improved Trip + Tripping weapon. Prone with an extra attack is great. This degrades with particularly large/strong opponents.

Thank you. So I will try to get STR up to 18 and reconsider Cleave. I just don't really know where to take the points from... If I lower INT, I won't manage to get sufficient ranks in my 3 core skills (Concentration, Diplomacy, Knowledge Religion). If I dump CHA, I can't be party face effectively and Turning won't work well. What would you suggest?

Many thanks!

[Troacctid]

Thank you. So I will try to get STR up to 18 and reconsider Cleave. I just don't really know where to take the points from... If I lower INT, I won't manage to get sufficient ranks in my 3 core skills (Concentration, Diplomacy, Knowledge Religion). If I dump CHA, I can't be party face effectively and Turning won't work well. What would you suggest?

Many thanks!

I would take the points out of Int and Wis. Go down to 8 Int and 15 Wis, and then that frees you to go back up to 18 Strength and 12 Con. It's better to start with 12 Con and 15 Wis and put the point into Wis at level 4 than the other way around. As for Int, it's fine to just do one or the other skill and not both.

In terms of equipment, I took a chain shirt and got a greatsword for free. Do you have any advice regarding suitable initial equipment?

Normally I'd offer a whole spreadsheet, but since you're PHB only, just have a look at the adventuring gear section and pick out whatever items off the list you think will be useful.

[Mykerinos]

I would take the points out of Int and Wis. Go down to 8 Int and 15 Wis, and then that frees you to go back up to 18 Strength and 12 Con. It's better to start with 12 Con and 15 Wis and put the point into Wis at level 4 than the other way around. As for Int, it's fine to just do one or the other skill and not both.


Normally I'd offer a whole spreadsheet, but since you're PHB only, just have a look at the adventuring gear section and pick out whatever items off the list you think will be useful.

Great, thank you very much.

How about Cleave? Is it a must with Power Attack and will it remain viable for long enough to justify taking it, I your opinion? Or is Improved Initiative better once I transition to caster in a few levels?

Basic situation: we have a fighter, a Monk and a Rouge in terms of melee characters. Are Monk and Rouge viable front line characters, or is it likely that I will end up tanking a lot? That might delay my transition to caster until I have viable summoning options etc. at my disposal.

Thanks again.

[Troacctid]

If you think your party has enough melee heavies and you want to lean on the casting more, then you can easily skip the fighter feats entirely and be a caster-blaster type with higher Wis. In that case, you could actually go all the way down to 14 Strength and put the savings into Wis and Cha, and replace Power Attack with Improved Turning, Spell Penetration, Spell Focus (evocation), or a metamagic feat for later. Or just switch your race to dwarf, gnome, or halfling to get some racial abilities. With lower Strength and no dedicated sword feats, the weapon will be more of a secondary option, and your focus will be more on buffing your friends and then unloading attack and/or disruption spells.

BTW the spelling is rogue, not rouge.