How to engage very "technical" players? (STEM profile :D)

[HoboKnight]

Hey, guys,

so in my group I have a few people, who are very engaged in my campaign. Toss at them an interesting NPC, a hurt animal or general injustice and they'll just gobble it up. They are really invested in the game. We also have "the tech guy". This guy does not attach to NPCs. He is a physicist by profession and approaches everything "very technically". He optimizes the game, which is fine, but also optimizes "the meta-game" in terms of social interaction. I'll toss a bleeding squirrel on a path of PCs and most will get totally engaged, while this guy is completelly unphased. He is calm and polite, but I have a strong feeling, I am unable to create "a stake" for him in the game. Something, that will make his eyes light up. I bet most of you know such players - people that deem all is mathematically calculable and that even people's relations run like this. I'd really really like to present a challenge for the party, that would make this guy go "woah, I REALLY want to engage this". As such profiles, he likes puzzles and such, but, if I give another example - you know, when you make a random NPC and party totally "adopts" it? Well, this guy does not. What makes such profiles "tick"? I know I can make party laugh or cry with all sorts of shenanignas, but with these types of players ... how do I do it?

One more example - he is the kind of a guy who took upon himslef a role of a "tank", because "party needed one"(he is a team player - too much in this aspect even). He sort of enjoys his PC, but IMO not all that much (but he will never admit it). How do I get through to such a profile player?

As probably noticed, he is completelly fine to play with ... I'd just like to create some proper "hooks" for him - personally and make more interesting for him.

thanks!

[DeTess]

So, I think I would qualify as an analytical player. Probably not quite up tot he same level as your guy, but still. One thing that really engages me is a mystery, and not a one-off one-session mystery, but a campaign-spanning one that I can slowly get to grips with as the DM sprinkles in little revelations, and my character gets to test hypotheses to expend her understanding. It keeps me alert throughout the session, looking for further clues, and gives em a good reason to keep track of in-game events in a campaign log or similar.

That having been said, creating something like this is difficult because you're going to need it to be consistent (because inconsistensies will get picked up on), while really pacing the rate at which you reveal things. Too few new clues and the mystery stalls. Too many and your players might figure it out too quickly. A good idea might eb tot alk with your more analytical players OOC once in a while to check on their understanding, so that you know what they know, and what you might need to make more clear.

[Quertus]

Two ideas

1) game physics.

This area has floating rocks. *Why* do they float? *How* can I use that?

2) what physics?

Here a cool, unique *thing*, and there's no other thing like it in the world: a blue squirrel, a Lawful Slaad, an Eternal Wand (before such were printed). Forget the *how*, it's unique and can't be replicated, but what do you do with it now that it exists?

In short, engage their *brain* with something *new*.

Also, mysteries *can* work, if handled well. Perhaps having a *plot*, but not a *railroad*, that they can manipulate the outcome? Like… a 5-way war between factions representing the colors in MtG. It will continue until 1 color, or two "friendly" colors, are victorious. Allying with each has advantages and disadvantages. And what actions they take can change the dynamics of the war. Kill all blue's fliers, what happens now?

[MrStabby]

I am not sure how much of a STEM thing it is; I play with a group almost entirely like that and this type of engagement sometimes happens but it is not that frequent.

I think more commonly it comes from a history of either video games or board games where there is maybe more of an emphasis on what you achieve than how you achieve it.

I think you shouldn't sweat it too much, a bit of time can iron this out. Sometimes it helps to give mechanical rewards to players based on their character's values - a reward to adopting a less mechanically articulatable approach. Dont push it too hard though.

[SwordCoastTaxi]

Writer and game-designer Robin D. Laws identified several player types and how to engage them in his "Robin's Laws of Good Gamemastering". It's imo a must-read for everyone in our hobby, not just GMs.

http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/t...obinslaws.html

Your player seems like the Tactician type. I engage those players with problems that need a sharper mind to solve.

I'll add you can't force certain player types to embrace the session the way YOU want. Giving them what THEY want from the game/story works best ime.

[Spiderswims]

So some people are just unreachable. They just don't really engage in anything. Even if they got their greatest wish ever, they would still be like "ok". Some people are just like that.




Most people are quite easy to engage, even more so in a game. Toss a ring of wishing in front of the players and they will be obsessed with playing the game to get it. The same way many players love to pretend to be powerful and show off: give them an evil army to fight and they will be falling all over the table to role play that fight.

After the easy players....well, this is where the physiologically part of a GM comes in. You need the social skills to 'read' people and 'understand' people.

[MoiMagnus]

First, if I'm correctly understanding the kind of player you're talking about, they tend to have a high control over their emotion, which mean that (1) just because they didn't show any emotion doesn't mean they didn't felt any and (2) they might not be actually interested in experiencing strong emotions during RPG sessions, or even feel out of their zone of comfort when experiencing them.
=> while you can try to give them some good laugh or emotional moments, you should not force them into having the same reactions as the other peoples.

Second, their immersion in their character might be of a very different kind as of other peoples.
[For illustration, there was a part of my life where my dreams were in 3rd person, which says a lot about how much I cared about being "personally immersed" into fictions]
IME, analytic mind tend to be much more interested into the meta level, which includes:
+ All the technical/tactical layer
+ All the rule-building and game design part
+ All the world-building, and the "discovery" or "mystery" parts
+ Social relations, playing with others and exchanging ideas with them, and helping the other players

Assistant DM is probably the easiest way to engage them on the long run (once him and the DM start to understand each others).

Domain management is a good option too. They might not care about "random NPC they encounter", but they are more likely to care about "random NPC they recruited as general of their personal army" or something.
Similarly, adding explicit "influence points with this faction" might help involving him more into the RP decisions, as they have direct effects on quantifiable resources.

[QNLA]

I think you're focusing on the wrong point for your answer. Rather than focusing on his professional background, ask yourself why he is playing the game. If he is a friend of your group I'm guessing he is playing to spend time with friends more than to play the game (he chose his character to fill a hole rather than choosing a particular kind of character to play), or alternatively he might be getting a feel for the group dynamics before he starts engaging fully (particularly if he is a more recent addition to a group who have been playing together for a while). What might be throwing you is that he appears to be optimising everything and that I think that might just be that he's pulled the rules apart making the optimal strategies more obvious (the rules have a lot of patterns in them that aren't too hard to pull out as a physicist, as a sidenote I'm also a professional physicist).


If that's the case there is nothing wrong going on here, he may just be playing for a different reason to everyone else. ... That being said, there are a couple of thoughts I had if you want to make him more engaged in the game:

Depending on if you DM fairly linearly and have the solution the players need to follow, the social optimisation you mentioned might just be him picking up on patterns in how you describe characters and your choice of characters depending on whether they are plot advancement NPCs, sidequest/lore NPCs, or unimportant NPCs. If you want to break that you could every now and then pick a NPC and describe them as if they were suppose to be something else. You don't want to do this too often and should provide methods of correcting the players expectations if they don't realise the mistake too quickly, but doing it every now and then means anyone who's noticed a pattern can't be 100% sure that they haven't missed a plot critical NPC and so may have to check further NPCs. Alternatively if you are comfortable with improv you could promote random unimportant NPCs to plot relevant ones if the players take an interest in them, in particular start using them as reoccurring characters who can help/provide information. Though its important not to develop a story before players show interest and to let the character disappear if people don't pay them any attention, but it helps make the world more immersive and might interest your player since they now feel there are more levers that they can interact with the world through.

Probably the most memorable NPC I made that my players latched onto was Dumbledore who I invented about 30 seconds before before introducing to prevent them murderhoboing the king (long story short: they thought it was a good idea to drag the looted/naked corpse of a random bandit into town in the first session). It was obvious that he was not planned since Dumbledore was the 3rd or 4th name I gave him within about a minute since I kept forgetting the wizard sounding names I came up with but ended up casting a spell on one of the ringleader player to give me some leverage if they decided to murderhobo again and acted as a bit of a guide who the player could later talk to. For some reason at least half of them seemed to think he'd end up as the big bad evil guy at the end, but they kept interacting with him, in part because they literally invented him through their actions and I just kept reusing him to pass information to the players and invented more backstory for him as the game went on.


The other possible thing to get him engaged would be chaos and/or playing out improbable events and/or promoting him playing his bad stats. This kind of play can create more memorable events especially if the world reacts to the chaos in interesting ways (see story above), also allowing players to make rolls for things that you wouldn't expect them to know can lead to random organic growth of characters that the players don't have to decide on. The illiterate barbarian who is making his own fun chopping the dead dwarves up into itty-bitty pieces decides to have a go at the art history check everyone keeps failing, rolling a 20 he leaves the dead dwarves be and launches into a long-winded lecture about the one piece of art history that he happens to know, the player then playing up his love of art in the future. Critical failures can also be fun in that character may be convinced that they heard/know something completely wrong that the player has to play along with until another character manages to correct them.

Some players may hate this kind of chaos but others may enjoy it and engage through it, if your player likes monty python then they may enjoy the chaos as a way to switch off their brain (think Jim from Darths and Droids if you read it).

[Cicciograna]

I have but one question for you: is your player having fun? If the answer is "Yes", well, then you are looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

[MrStabby]

I have but one question for you: is your player having fun? If the answer is "Yes", well, then you are looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

Maybe change that to "are they having the most fun they could?"

[Grod_The_Giant]

Have you tried... asking him? Because that's probably the first thing you need to do.

My personal take is, well... personal, but as someone who's been that player before: it all comes down to what you enjoy in an RPG. When I play, I tend to be pretty focused on Plot. I like to be given a clear goal, then figure out how to accomplish it via character mechanics and lateral thinking. It's almost a video game progression--get the quest, finish the quest, get the next quest--because that's what I enjoy*. The unfolding plot and mechanical character progression are nice bonuses, and I certainly enjoy a bit of in-character teasing and goofing around, but ultimately it's the problem-solving that brings me back, not the roleplay. If I was in your game, I'd tell you "don't worry about it; as long as we keep going on adventures, I'm having fun."




*The partially-befuddled, partially-upset face of a GM saying "I... guess that works, damn" is one of my favorite things.

[Phhase]

As a player with similar tendencies, give him an open system to play with and then give him a bunch of ingredients to play with. This works especially well if it's something that isn't a core class feature.

Favorite Example: Rogue with Guild Alchemist background.

In this case, mixing potions and poisons is just a thing you can do with alchemist's tools. While Rogue is the class, alchemist is their job. So once that's established, start throwing chemicals and plants at them! Magical things, with strange properties, incomplete recipes, things to mix and experiment with!

In short, add a pseudoscientific subsystem that keys off of player creativity and curiosity rather than just dice rolls or class features.

[Yora]

Enjoying something is about you enjoying it. It's not about playing it in a way that someone else enjoys. It's about expressing yourself how you want it, not like other people want you to express yourself.

[Scoper]

I have played in a group where almost everyone was the technical, analytical sort of person.
The DM would often create elaborate puzzles for us to figure out. And this kept everyone engaged. Things like: coded messages, riddles, complex and bizarre magical artifacts, unusual physics, missions requiring special tactics.

[Alcore]

Since i am the Orange/blue morality guy in our group i might be able to help. It's not much though;

Create a puzzle he cannot figure out immediately. Base it on the rules. You are really going to have to work for it though; you need to outsmart him. A daunting prospect with his profession.


Beyond that you merely need to find something that brings out an emotional response in real life and place something similar in game. I don't completely recommend as it might be too triggering.


Note that it might all fail. He is not you.

[HoboKnight]

Thanks so much to everyone. Your input really helped me talk to the guy and I think I have uncovered some alleys for him to explore. Talking to someone is good, but doing it so prepared and with such input as yours - much more profitable.

[Martin Greywolf]

As such profiles, he likes puzzles and such
[...]
One more example - he is the kind of a guy who took upon himslef a role of a "tank", because "party needed one"(he is a team player - too much in this aspect even). He sort of enjoys his PC, but IMO not all that much (but he will never admit it). How do I get through to such a profile player?

A bit late to the party, but, have you considered the XCOM method? XCOM very much has its combat as a tactical puzzle, precisely in the way DnD is set up best to handle, and the attachement to the characters you develop there is because of time invested and how essential they are to your puzzle solutions (which involve a shocking amount of high explosives).

To adapt it to DnD, give him a small team of 2-3 followers he can build that will help him. These are squishy, and some of them at least will definitely die, but that will make the ones that make it all the more special. If you are into system tinkering, maybe give them homebrewed feats that make them better team players for extra spice.

[Xervous]

While my players would balk at me arbitrarily killing off one of their characters they don’t have any OOC gripes with the untimely end of half their hirelings or a dear pet moose. The moose however did get a funeral. My vote goes towards providing followers, then aiming reasonable threats at them in line with the plot and the characters’ actions. You’re free to kill the hireling and it doesn’t derail the session or bench the player.

[Necroanswer]

I may be similar to the player you posted about so I'll give you an idea about what I tend to like and dislike.

I enjoy tactically challenging combats; is winning fights a forgone conclusion even if the players choose terribly non-optimal decisions? (Of course this is sensitive, if combat is mostly boils down to your players describing how they swing the sword to beat the baddies and you and everyone else loves it you probably don't want to move away from this style to try to please one person.)

Puzzles are good, but they don't have to be literal puzzles (which can be hard to design). Figuring out how to get an NPC to respond in a manner that forwards an agenda can be just as engaging for me.

I generally don't like stuff like: "look at the cute bunny, let me tell you how cute he is." Recently, our d&d party staved off an attack of monsters on a village. After the attack a woman whose husband was killed by the critters came out of hiding and I felt compelled (in keeping with social norms) to try comfort her. I enjoyed every moment of the combat and hated every moment of comforting an npc who doesn't exist over an event that never really happened. When stuff like this happens I usually just try to grin and bear it.