RPG tie in media and sequels eliminating diversity

[Mechalich]

And therein lies the problem. The people who write videogames are the people who make them. For a variety of reasons that quickly delve into political depths best not discussed the vast majority of video game creators has historically been white, nerdy males. As far as I'm aware this is still largely true, especially at the upper levels.

Historically a large proportion of popular video games have been and are made in Japan, so actually a great many video game creators are nerdy Japanese males, not white ones.

[Rynjin]

You aren't wrong, but you're still answering the wrong question. Again: fanfiction has a really low barrier for entry. You need a keyboard and free time. There is limited external pressure to make female fanfic writers write about male protagonists, so the simplest explanation for female writers writing male protagonists is that they want to stronger than they want to write female protagonists. Because, again: if they wanted female protagonists more, they'd write that instead.

You can start analyzing this by taking any female author and looking at how much time they spend writing what types of stories. Do this enough times, with enough authors, and you can start spotting real trends among female authors. Repeat with enough people reading those stories, and you can start spotting real trends among female audiences.

I'd like to say "it's that easy" but the real point is anything but. The basic principle is easy, gathering data and properly analyzing it is hard. That's why big companies sometimes fail to meet consumer needs and wants: they are constantly expending more resources on analyses like this than any of us have, and they still get it wrong.

Fan fiction is inherently constrained, in some ways. It works with a base canon as a starting point.

This means that anything beyond that base canon is a CHANGE. Something someone would need to go out of their way to do.

Since most media is led by male characters, most fanfiction is going to be about those same male characters as a matter of course.

A more interesting tangent would be to look at web serials, which have the exact same barrier for entry.

Of the current top 10 serials, 7 are female led, 2 are male lead, and one is ??? lead (Super Minion). A similar trend is seen with the all-time top 10, which are 60% female led as well.

The authorship is there. The audience is there. The only thing that isn't there is willingness from publishing companies to capitalize on it as a widespread trend.

[Mechalich]

I think there's an issue involving conflating issues of media with issues of genre here.

Since fanfiction has been brought up I'll use that as an example because I have written a lot of fanfiction and I am active in fanfiction communities.

Yes fanfiction, as a whole, is dominated by female writers and female readers. But that's dependent on genre, not the genre of the source materials mind you, but the genre of the fanfics themselves. Specifically, fanfic is dominated by females writing and reading romances (this includes numerous sub-groups includes mush, slash-fic, shipping, and many more). Fanfic written in other genres, fantasy, science fiction, mystery, horror, whatever, has a much more balanced gender breakdown in terms of both authorship and readership. This situation is perfectly reflective of existing print media in basically every way, so it should surprise no one.

Video games are a medium, but each video game also has a genre, and male and female interest simply is not evenly distributed across different genres. There are genres with a heavily male-skewed player base, genres with a heavily female skewed playerbase, and genres that are more mixed.

Consequently, questions regarding representation in video games are actually two questions: representation within genre and representation between genres. You can make games that have been traditionally favored by one genre more appealing to the other, or you can simply make more of a type of game that appeals primarily to the traditionally underrepresented gender.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Dargaron
It assumes that any woman-written piece of fiction with a male protagonist was not a choice of the woman, but either generated by random chance or compelled by outside forces. It denies agency to women who did knowingly and intentionally write with a male protagonist by slying implying "You didn't really want to do that."

I’m glad someone called this out.

I know women who are professional authors who choose to write male protagonists. That is entirely their choice, not forced on them by anything or anyone, only the concepts that appealed to them and the stories they wanted to tell.

[druid91]

So why do we not get that, especially in videogames?

Broadly speaking there are two main appeal factors when it comes to videogame characters: Wish fulfillment and Identification.

Wish fulfillment is escapism. Bob the 42 year-old accountant with a bald spot doesn't want to play a balding accountant in a videogame. He wants to play Krug the Exterminator, Scourge of the West. An oiled up barbarian that can do all the things he can't in real life.

Identification is playing someone who resembles you. At the most basic level this comes down to gender - males are more likely to play males and females are more likely to play females. I'm more likely to play a techie character in a game because I'm a techie person in real life. Etc.

This is by no means universal - the human experience is a rich rainbow so diverse in color we can never hope to see all of them at once. However, it works as a good general rule when you are designing something with universal appeal.

And therein lies the problem. The people who write videogames are the people who make them. For a variety of reasons that quickly delve into political depths best not discussed the vast majority of video game creators has historically been white, nerdy males. As far as I'm aware this is still largely true, especially at the upper levels.

These writers create what they find appealing, which leads to the huge swathe of white male protagonists. When someone suggests a minority group (including *gasp* female) the "universal appeal" argument comes out. The demographic charts come out and the marketing department gets called in.

The only solution is getting true representation within the companies that create these products. We're still a long way off from that, and I don't see it getting fixed any time soon. If we have proper representation in 20 years I'd be happy.

The good news is that the Internet and social media appears to be accelerating this process. Digital distribution makes indie and amateur games more accessible. Social media is making companies warier of appearing to lack diversity.

I'm hopeful for the future. It's just going to take a while to get there.

I mean.... this is a nice theory and all....

But doesn't it kind of fall apart when you run into the issue that most games aren't about white males? And this isn't exactly a new phenomenon. Sonic the Hedgehog has been around for decades. Pong doesn't have any recognizable people at all, Echo is a dolphin. One of the biggest games of the decade was about Cartoon birds being catapulted at pigs.

Not to mention that a lot of the games in question that people complain about are made in Japan rather than America.

[Lord Raziere]

I’m glad someone called this out.

I know women who are professional authors who choose to write male protagonists. That is entirely their choice, not forced on them by anything or anyone, only the concepts that appealed to them and the stories they wanted to tell.

Well of course its their choice, they aren't a powerful corporation who has so much power that they influence society as a whole with the media they put out and thus can drown out whatever they write with the sheer amount of resources, and thus has more collective responsibility than these women. individuals aren't the problem, its forces and organizations who write not for the sake of the story itself but because they do so in a targeted away to control others, especially when they do so at kids and teens. the goal of such representation is to make sure that we get the right morals out of it at least. if we're going to be dominated by corporate overlords we might as well make sure they have to adhere to the highest standards so that society does to.

[druid91]

Well of course its their choice, they aren't a powerful corporation who has so much power that they influence society as a whole with the media they put out and thus can drown out whatever they write with the sheer amount of resources, and thus has more collective responsibility than these women. individuals aren't the problem, its forces and organizations who write not for the sake of the story itself but because they do so in a targeted away to control others, especially when they do so at kids and teens. the goal of such representation is to make sure that we get the right morals out of it at least. if we're going to be dominated by corporate overlords we might as well make sure they have to adhere to the highest standards so that society does to.

I... Really don't think Nintendo or Sony are trying to control society with subliminal messaging in videogames. They make games they think will sell. That's all. They try to guess what will bring them the most money for their time, effort, and money invested in making a game... And do that.

Not to mention that several pop culture juggernauts came from the equivalent of fan fiction. Dungeons and Dragons being the big example.

[Lord Raziere]

I... Really don't think Nintendo or Sony are trying to control society with subliminal messaging in videogames. They make games they think will sell. That's all. They try to guess what will bring them the most money for their time, effort, and money invested in making a game... And do that.

Not to mention that several pop culture juggernauts came from the equivalent of fan fiction. Dungeons and Dragons being the big example.

there is no need for subliminal messages. they were never mentioned and are not relevant. here is the thing: your only looking at one side of the equation, when society is a cycle just like nature is: the company produces a work they think reflects society as it is NOW. the people think that is what society SHOULD BE and thus imitate what is given to them, especially if they are young people in formative years who don't know how society works yet and thus look to any example to figure it out no matter how badly advised. they are kids are teens after all and are not adults like you who get the complexities and thus make responsible choices.

thus if society is bad, the company will sell what is bad because they don't care about how it should be, they just want your money which IS a form of control, because it drains power from you, because money is power, as is the image someone or something projects to get money. to pretend otherwise is ridiculous. thus to control money and what people think of you is power and control. if left unchecked, this cycle of appealing peoples base natures will produce bad things to young people who won't take it as an option of many one can responsibly indulge sometimes but as an ideal to follow and perpetuate. thus to rectify that we make sure that they instead appeal to our better natures. this creates a cycle of positive tradition to perpetuate, as people taught positive things will perpetuate positive things. media is a form of communication. it an artistic, entertaining form of communication but something is being communicated nonetheless. there is no escaping that a message is communicated as people read into something whether you like it or not, and that message can be damaging or detrimental if not caught and corrected in time.

the only way to not send a message is to not make a story. the only way to not influence another is silence. these are just facts as I know them. thus we need to make sure that our media portrays how we should be to some extent. do you propose to let such things decay instead?

[J-H]

A more interesting tangent would be to look at web serials, which have the exact same barrier for entry.

Of the current top 10 serials, 7 are female led, 2 are male lead, and one is ??? lead (Super Minion). A similar trend is seen with the all-time top 10, which are 60% female led as well.

The authorship is there. The audience is there. The only thing that isn't there is willingness from publishing companies to capitalize on it as a widespread trend.

Huh, I hadn't even noticed that. Of the original web serials I'm reading:
Vaudevillain - Male lead, but could just as easily be female without changing anything important
Practical Guide to Evil - Female lead, could be male without changing much
Wandering Inn - Female lead, Erin wouldn't work as a male character.
Last Angel series - Female-ish AI warship is lead.
Worth the Candle - Male lead.

60/40 female-led split, and I hadn't even noticed. Worm and Ward also had female leads; Pact didn't, but I didn't like it and will never re-read it or anything in that toilet of a universe. I am keeping up with Super Minion, but it's still relatively short and slow-updating compared to the others.

I don't really care whether a story is about men or women, as long as it's well-written, has character development, and is fun to read... which is why "Pride and Prejudice" (old BBC version) is interesting to watch, even though it's essentially a "slice of life" story with nothing epic in it.

Now, if a story gets preachy about social or political issues (most likely pushing values opposed to mine), or has too much weird stuff or sex content or gore or is too depressing (I'm never getting into WH40k), I'm out.

[Vahnavoi]

Interesting. So just to be clear, in this particular instance, a single woman making a claim was a 'sufficient answer for analyzing consumer behaviour of large masses of people,' in your view?

Haha, no. I was remarking on the irony of only personally encountering (alleged) stereotypical male behaviour in a female person. I do not know how well her behaviour matches general trends.

---

I'm not sure that question is possible to give a serious answer.

Of course it's possible. Are you sure you aren't conflating "serious" with "correct"? Because I freely admit, and admitted in my last post, that giving a correct answer is hard.

There's all sorts of issues comparing fanfiction to original fiction as you propose. For one thing, most established franchises have way more male characters that could be chosen as the focus. So if we assumed that the choice of characters a fan may write fanfiction around was actually totally random, the result would still be to write mostly male characters.

What you are doing here is laying out a particular null hypothesis. What you are not doing is putting numbers on your hypothesis and checking how well it compares to reality.

Put differently: you are taking step 1 out many to answering my question... and then turning around as if it's an obstacle to answering it. When what you should be doing, if you wanted to get any knowledge out of this, is continue with steps 2, 3 and 4: quantifying your null hypothesis, gathering data from real character distribution in fanfiction and comparing the gathered data to it.

In order to consider fanfiction production any kind of relevant measure, we'd have to find some way to account for that kind of inherent bias. And there just isn't one. How are you going to guess- en masse- the motive fans have behind the choice of character to focus on in a fanfiction? And even if you did that, how are you going to rate how "badly" the community is wanting that representation? With fanfiction you can't even use the (extremely poor) justification of looking at how well it sells.

I already gave you two metrics you can use: time spent writing and time spent reading. You can contrast that with surveys on fanfiction authors and readers, explicitly asking their motivations. You say there's no way to account for bias. I doubt you thought about it too hard, because there's an entire field of statistical analysis dedicated to solving these kinds of problems. There is existing methodology for this.

Nevermind that you can still get information out of a biased sample: a study on motives of female fanfiction writers and audience might not generalize across all of women, but it can still yield accurate information on what fanfiction writers and audience. The way to find out, is to take another sample, like Rynjin suggested to do with web serial producers.

But the most important point here is this: you can't know how well your sample matches reality before you actually go through all this work. So how do you know motives and wants of female fanfiction authors and audience don't match up with general female population if you didn't already do all this work?

Because if you did do the work, please post it. It would be an excellent answer to my question.

If you didn't: you are banging your head against a basic problem of basic research: you can't tell how relevant your research untill after you've done it.

[BeerMug Paladin]

Of course it's possible. Are you sure you aren't conflating "serious" with "correct"? Because I freely admit, and admitted in my last post, that giving a correct answer is hard.

You're asking me to develop a method for an objective measure for a subjective thing. Academics in the humanities generally don't work that way. How badly do people want the color blue to be used in art?

Sure, I could spend some time to justify some method to create numbers to talk about, but the question itself represents a failure to grasp the subject matter on its own terms, so it's pointless to engage with that approach. I'm not interested in talking about numbers and I don't think talking about numbers will improve anyone's understanding. All it would do is serve to obfuscate the real understanding.

I think that the original answer of "very" is sufficiently precise and detailed. Representation matters unless you're already represented well.

[Vahnavoi]

You're asking me to develop a method for an objective measure for a subjective thing. Academics in the humanities generally don't work that way. How badly do people want the color blue to be used in art?

Did you miss what I pointed about measuring pain? We can put numbers on subjective experiences, carry out surveys on how people feel and derive useful results out of that data. You're also ignoring my proposed method of measuring time used on a behaviour without any real comment.

Also there are studies on human color preferences. It's an important field of study not just for art, but for designing indoor lighting and computer screen.Seriously, Google "studies on color preference".

Sure, I could spend some time to justify some method to create numbers to talk about, but the question itself represents a failure to grasp the subject matter on its own terms, so it's pointless to engage with that approach. I'm not interested in talking about numbers and I don't think talking about numbers will improve anyone's understanding. All it would do is serve to obfuscate the real understanding.

I think that the original answer of "very" is sufficiently precise and detailed. Representation matters unless you're already represented well.

Uh huh. Sure. No numbers, no analysis, no answer can be better than "very".

I highly doubt it.

[warty goblin]

Did you miss what I pointed about measuring pain? We can put numbers on subjective experiences, carry out surveys on how people feel and derive useful results out of that data.

I've worked with reported pain score data; it's not quite pure garbage, but it's very, very close. Leikert scale preference reporting is somewhat useful, but quite difficult to get much out of in practice; most analyses just combine strong and moderate agree/disagree so you can do rank-sum type analyses. And when comparing multiple options this way you generally end up having to make a strong and untestable assumption of stochastic ordering.

None of this even touches on the often substantial gaps between reported preferences and what people actually do. This can be because the person thinks there's an answer they should give, or simply that the people who self-select to answer surveys are very much not representative of the general population. Modern surveys usually operate at a single digit response percentage, which means selection bias can be catastrophically huge, even if people are honestly describing their preferences.

So yes, you can do these things, to an extent. If you have access to a validated survey frame, the expertise in survey design to not hopelessly bias your instrument before you even deploy it, the technical staff to collect the results, and a PhD or two to adjust for non response, deploy an appropriate imputation method, and generally crunch the numbers.

But hey, if that's your standard of evidence, go for it. I'd suggest looking at the romance market for starters, which is majorit written by, read by, edited by, and published by women. And i guarantee features a strong majority of female protagonists, particularly in the subgenres targeted at women. Myself, I'm pretty happy to accept the radical premise that "people generally like to see people like themselves in their media" as not needing anybody here deploying a $50k survey instrument to verify.

[Vahnavoi]

$50K study is lot for an individual, but approaches a routine expense when you get to market analyses done by corporations.

That's the thing. There are people out there who are already collecting relevant data and doing relevant work. It's depressing that never makes it to public fora and instead I get "numbers can't give you information, just asking the question shows you're wrong!"

Also, here:

None of this even touches on the often substantial gaps between reported preferences and what people actually do.

Why'd you think my suggested measurement for collecting data was time used on behaviour, with survey as contrast? I know full well teasing correct information out surveys, especially with small sample sizes, is hard. That's grounds for doing or at least hoping for better surveys, not proclaiming it's impossible to get anything useful out of them.

Myself, I'm pretty happy to accept the radical premise "people generally like to see people like themselves in their media"

I wasn't asking whether women want to see female protagonists, I was asking how strongly. I already pointed out these are different questions with different answers and different implications. Accepting that premise leaves the answer to my question still hanging in the air.

[Giggling Ghast]

The first Dragon Age kind of turned me off hardcore, so I never played any of the sequels, but do the comic and novels ever reference the game's PCs or give them canon identities?

Sorry I missed your question earlier. The answer is a hard no. The DA tie-in comics actively avoid referencing the games’ three protagonists except in the most general way.

[Keltest]

Sorry I missed your question earlier. The answer is a hard no. The DA tie-in comics actively avoid referencing the games’ three protagonists except in the most general way.

This is a specific intention by the developers, because they dont really want to canonize the Warden to that degree and invalidate the choices of players who made something different.

[Cikomyr2]

This is a specific intention by the developers, because they dont really want to canonize the Warden to that degree and invalidate the choices of players who made something different.

Which, paradoxically, then invalidates *all* players choice because the story never ever show any consequence or importance of these choices. So the choice might just never have happened in the first place. Everything these choices touch just becomes a small filler box that is swappable between two outcomes - like who is the dwarf at the Empress of Orlais's court. Is it a representative of Harrowmont or Bhelen? Yay, consequences!!

[Keltest]

Which, paradoxically, then invalidates *all* players choice because the story never ever show any consequence or importance of these choices. So the choice might just never have happened in the first place. Everything these choices touch just becomes a small filler box that is swappable between two outcomes - like who is the dwarf at the Empress of Orlais's court. Is it a representative of Harrowmont or Bhelen? Yay, consequences!!

I mean, within the games, thats what Dragon Age Keep is for. Theyre the representative of whichever one you set up as the canon timeline for your current playthrough. As far as putting the Warden in the games, i think its just that theyre so much more variable that the resources needed to let you customize them for a hypothetical DA4 just arent there.

Also, they totally canonized at least some story elements. In the book canon, Alistair became king. Even if you play Inquisition with him as a warden, he's king in canon.

[Giggling Ghast]

Also, they totally canonized at least some story elements. In the book canon, Alistair became king. Even if you play Inquisition with him as a warden, he's king in canon.

Yes, and the Dark Horse comics are also written based on certain assumptions (Anders died and Fenris lived; in fact, Fenris is starring in his own comic coming out in March).

HoWEVER! The “canon” of the books and the comics are still not the “canon” of the games. Player canon still takes precedence over whatever is in the extended media.

Also, even with certain choices being made, they deliberately avoid any reference to the race, skin colour, gender or sexuality of the Warden, Champion or Inquisitor. And that was the OP’s particular bugbear.

[Keltest]

Yes, and the Dark Horse comics are also written based on certain assumptions (Anders died and Fenris lived; in fact, Fenris is starring in his own comic coming out in March).

HoWEVER! The “canon” of the books and the comics are still not the “canon” of the games. Player canon still takes precedence over whatever is in the extended media.

Also, even with certain choices being made, they deliberately avoid any reference to the race, skin colour, gender or sexuality of the Warden, Champion or Inquisitor. And that was the OP’s particular bugbear.

Well, in DA2 Hawke's family will actually change appearance based on the player's customizations. So if Hawke has dark skin, his siblings will also have dark skin, for example. Other than that, i dont think anybody ever mentions skin color or gender of anybody in Thedas except as a literal physical descriptor when it becomes relevant.

[Giggling Ghast]

Yes, skin colour is pretty irrelevant, outside of the odd reference.

Gender does matter a wee bit more in Thedas. In the Chantry, men cannot be priests or sit the Sunburst Throne; the reverse is true in the Imperial Chantry. Also, gender determines your role amongst the qunari.

But in general, no one gives a fork about gender or skin colour. Race, social class, nationality and magical ability are far more important.

[Keltest]

Yes, skin colour is pretty irrelevant, outside of the odd reference.

Gender does matter a wee bit more in Thedas. In the Chantry, men cannot be priests or sit the Sunburst Throne; the reverse is true in the Imperial Chantry. Also, gender determines your role amongst the qunari.

But in general, no one gives a fork about gender or skin colour. Race, social class, nationality and magical ability are far more important.

And even among the Qunari its flexible. They dont quite use genders the same way that we do. It might be more accurate to say that your role determines your gender, and that sometimes your physical attributes obfuscate things a little bit unless you speak up about it.

[Giggling Ghast]

And even among the Qunari its flexible. They dont quite use genders the same way that we do. It might be more accurate to say that your role determines your gender, and that sometimes your physical attributes obfuscate things a little bit unless you speak up about it.

Well, they do have a work-around in cases where a qunari's talents don't really match their gender, and that work-around is basically "We made a mistake on this form, you're actually a woman/man."

Which would be great if you actually wanted to be the opposite gender, but maybe not so great if you prefer the gender you were born as.

Which, paradoxically, then invalidates *all* players choice because the story never ever show any consequence or importance of these choices. So the choice might just never have happened in the first place.

Tell that to every Dragon Age player who romanced Alistair in DAO and then had to choose between sacrificing him or Hawke in DAI.

[Keltest]

Well, they do have a work-around in cases where a qunari's talents don't really match their gender, and that work-around is basically "We made a mistake on this form, you're actually a woman/man."

Which would be great if you actually wanted to be the opposite gender, but maybe not so great if you prefer the gender you were born as.

Contrary to what Solas says, the Qunari do actually have some choice here. If you like being a man and you like being a soldier, then even if youre also wise and intelligent, they arent going to force you to become a priest instead. Iron Bull only touches on it, but you need both aptitude and desire before theyll have you switch jobs up like that. They dont want people being miserable in their day to day if they can help it, that leads to bad work even from skilled workers.

[Giggling Ghast]

Contrary to what Solas says, the Qunari do actually have some choice here. If you like being a man and you like being a soldier, then even if youre also wise and intelligent, they arent going to force you to become a priest instead. Iron Bull only touches on it, but you need both aptitude and desire before theyll have you switch jobs up like that. They dont want people being miserable in their day to day if they can help it, that leads to bad work even from skilled workers.

Mmm, that was not quite my read on the situation. From what I understand after speaking with the Iron Bull, all qunari are assessed by the Tamrassans for what role they might be best suited for. Bull was initially slotted for the military until they figured out he had a talent for spywork on top of fighting, so they put him in the Ben-Hassrath. But choice never really entered into it — Iron Bull compares it to being like a block of stone and being sculpted into the shape you were always supposed to be.

And while I haven't really had a chance to question any at length, the Tal-Vashoth I have encountered have generally expressed dissatisfaction with their role under the Qun.

There is also the fact that the qunari practice eugenics, specifically breeding qunari for certain roles. So in a sense, it's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy — I would imagine if I was as big and muscular as Iron Bull, I would probably prefer being a warrior over, say, a scientist.

[Keltest]

Mmm, that was not quite my read on the situation. From what I understand after speaking with the Iron Bull, all qunari are assessed by the Tamrassans for what role they might be best suited for. Bull was initially slotted for the military until they figured out he had a talent for spywork on top of fighting, so they put him in the Ben-Hassrath. But choice never really entered into it — Iron Bull compares it to being like a block of stone and being sculpted into the shape you were always supposed to be.

And while I haven't really had a chance to question any at length, the Tal-Vashoth I have encountered have generally expressed dissatisfaction with their role under the Qun.

There is also the fact that the qunari practice eugenics, specifically breeding qunari for certain roles. So in a sense, it's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy — I would imagine if I was as big and muscular as Iron Bull, I would probably prefer being a warrior over, say, a scientist.

It comes up when Bull is describing the Aqun-Athlok. He says that you can request to be transferred to a different role for another gender that you normally wouldnt have been considered for, and it may be allowed if you show aptitude for it. Its not just something that they declare for you while youre growing up.

[Giggling Ghast]

My view on the Aqun-Athlok is that it's basically the qunari's way of "cheating" their own very strict roles on gender and not letting particularly talented individuals go to waste. Oh, this woman is really good at fighting? Well, this woman is actually a man! And this man who shows an aptitude for medicine? Clearly they must actually be a woman!

Of course, if you actually are transgender, then you're probably happy to live as the opposite gender. But I would hesitate to suggest the Aqun-Athlok system works for everyone, or that it's an easy path to switch jobs. Dissatisfaction in one's role would generally be dealt with through re-education.

[Keltest]

My view on the Aqun-Athlok is that it's basically the qunari's way of "cheating" their own very strict roles on gender and not letting particularly talented individuals go to waste. Oh, this woman is really good at fighting? Well, this woman is actually a man! And this man who shows an aptitude for medicine? Clearly they must actually be a woman!

Of course, if you actually are transgender, then you're probably happy to live as the opposite gender. But I would hesitate to suggest the Aqun-Athlok system works for everyone, or that it's an easy path to switch jobs. Dissatisfaction in one's role would generally be dealt with through re-education.

Speaking as a non-trans individual, my understanding is that "transgender" as we use the term wouldnt even apply to Qunari society because their gender roles are basically job qualifications that, as you note, can be cheated anyway. For something that both genders can do like (presumably) being a baker, there wouldnt be any gender lines to cross to begin with.

[Giggling Ghast]

Well, keep in mind that not all Qunari (followers of the Qun) are qunari (giant horned humanoids). There may be converts to the Qun who just feel like they were born as the wrong gender. Krem would be an example, if he ever felt like converting.

That said, I don't think the Qunari are accepting of people who identify as genderfluid, non-binary, genderqueer or whatever. That sort of thing doesn't really jibe with Qunari society. Any Qunari identifying as such would probably be sent to a re-education centre or just get their minds wiped so they're docile labourers.

[Keltest]

Well, keep in mind that not all Qunari (followers of the Qun) are qunari (giant horned humanoids). There may be converts to the Qun who just feel like they were born as the wrong gender. Krem would be an example, if he ever felt like converting.

That said, I don't think the Qunari are accepting of people who identify as genderfluid, non-binary, genderqueer or whatever. That sort of thing doesn't really jibe with Qunari society. Any Qunari identifying as such would probably be sent to a re-education centre or just get their minds wiped so they're docile labourers.

I dont think that would be accurate, because the Qunari wouldnt understand what being "non-binary" for example would even mean to the Qun. Youre a soldier and therefore a man. Youre a priest and therefore a woman. Youre part of the Ben-hassrath so it doesnt matter. Genderfluidity and being non-binary require a societal context that just isnt present for the Qunari.