Intersex PCs

[Satinavian]

How do you define "biologically not male or female," especially in an RPG context? Chromosomes? Anatomy?

Does your species reproduce sexually ? No -> You don't have a sex
If Yes, does your species actually have different sexes to do so ? No -> You don't have a sex any more than there is a sex to a snail
If Yes, does your body conform to one of those sexes ? Yes -> You have that sex
No or only partial or it has attributes of several sexes that usually don't come bundled -> You are intersex.

It is not really different for fantasy worlds, you can do the same steps in our world. And here the third question would look at chromosomes and anatomy as part of the body to evaluateand variations in both areas can get the specimen the intersex label.


Also it is common to treat being undead just as a condition and not something that actually changes your sex.

[Psyren]

Does your species reproduce sexually ? No -> You don't have a sex
If Yes, does your species actually have different sexes to do so ? No -> You don't have a sex any more than there is a sex to a snail
If Yes, does your body conform to one of those sexes ? Yes -> You have that sex
No or only partial or it has attributes of several sexes that usually don't come bundled -> You are intersex.

What does it mean for your body to "conform to one of those sexes?" And what "attributes" are expected to be "bundled" for someone to be "biologically X" or "biologically Y?" Is there are a threshold for such attributes that, once met, your body can be considered to be "conforming?"

I think there are pitfalls in assuming that there exist universal standards or answers for such things, as opposed to the distinctions being largely arbitrary conventions - especially when those conventions are often assigned at birth based on a more limited range of such "attributes" for the individual in question.

[Satinavian]

Of course there is subjectivity left. That is why this kind of evaluation is usually left to the medical profession. Or to Zoologists.

But when discussing how to treat/include intersex PCs you don't have to make that evaluation. If a player doesn't want to play an intersex character you don't examine the discription closely for stuff that does not match the stated sex. You likely won't even get a detailed description of their bits to form an opinion about them. You just assume they are average. If a player does want to play an intersex character, that player usually has a clear idea how the characters body fits the label and that is usually obvious enough.

The important point is that determining the sex of a human is not fundamentally different than determining the sex of a dog or a frog or a bee with intersex as a catch-all category for everything that does not fit the established sexes.

[KaussH]

How do you define "biologically not male or female," especially in an RPG context? Chromosomes? Anatomy?

In one of my settings, elves have 3 genders, one of which is intersex, and has actively both sets of genitila. Orcs (not a playable race) can switch from male to female much like an amphibian, so depending on conditions they may well fit as well.

[Talakeal]

I'm not at all saying you are wrong for wanting a dedicated field for gender expression. I personally think such a field is inherently less practical than simply encouraging it to be included as part of a much larger freeform "background", "outlook", or "expression" space, given the concept's potential mutability/fluidity (even day-to-day or moment-to-moment for some) as well as how many possible permutations of the concept there are, but your game can certainly have a shorter and more traditional line for it like the D&D 3.5 sheet does. That practicality is why I'm highlighting the official sheets of more modern games, like D&D 5e and Pathfinder 2e, as positive examples to draw from, because I believe they came to a similar conclusion with their own designs.

IMO it is much easier to put data into fields than write it out long form. Easier to write out, easier to organize, easier to remember everything, and easier to find what I need. Of course, it is also nice to have an extra miscellaneous space for details which you feel are important but don't fit into any of the fields.

Also, in my experience specific prompts are a lot easier for people who are having difficulty coming up with something, or just don't care. A "hack and slash" guy who just cares about the numbers would probably leave a descriptive field blank or close to it, but can probably be drawn out of their shell a bit if asked specific questions about their character's appearance like what color hair they have.

Where I do think your understanding might potentially have flaws however, is in your continued conflation, or at least a seeming lack of precision, when using the terms "sex" (especially the term "physical sex") and "gender." When you say something like "being able to play as a female character is important to me" I'm not at all disputing that (in fact I wholeheartedly agree that being able to express your character's identity is important), but I'm also not clear whether you're referring to sex, gender, or both simultaneously; which attributes you believe play a role in that expression, and whether or how the game plans to enable gender identities/expressions that don't fall neatly into discrete buckets like "male," "female" or intersex."

The problem is there isn't a good word for "biological sex".

Sex can mean it, but can also mean sexual intercourse.
Gender can also mean it, but can also mean the social construct.

I decided to go with the latter because it sounds better to me.


I generally try and ignore gender. I find it to be unnecessarily constraining for both men and women, and I frankly don't understand what non-binary even means (but would like to). As I said before, my game is set in a 19th century society without strongly enforced gender roles and where biological sex can be changed alchemically, so I don't think that an exploration of modern notions of gender really fits in any case.

And you're correct, many traditional documents like driver's licenses and loan applications do have such a field - but I would counter that that field's presence on those documents has caused no small amount of pain and frustration for trans/nonbinary individuals too. "Lots of existing documents have that field" is Appeal to Tradition, which is a fallacy for a reason.

Appeals to tradition, authority, and popularity are not themselves arguments, but they are very strong evidence of something.

I am not quite sure how one would even go about making a logically sound argument when discussing how useful something is a description.

We've been discussing gender identity as well as physical sex since page 1, it's not exactly off topic by this point.

Looking at the games I personally own, the rough trend seems to be: rules-heavy includes a sex or gender box, rules medium (roughly Fate level) includes a description box, and anything goes for rules light. Not a hard and fast rule, D&D 5e is noticeably missing sa dedicated sex box despite being rules heavy*. but a rough trend.

That was my appraisal as well.

Not quite. From what I understand, Trans theory* holds that for some individuals, their gender is important to them. This should be respected.
I've seen no-one insisting my gender is important since (to me) it's fairly low on my list of identities

Yeah, but as I recently said on the off topic board, I have had several people recently tell me that gender is something that everyone is innately born with and / or something that transcends social or physical definition. One guy even went so far as to insist that if he were a sexless robot who had lived alone on a desert island his whole life with no knowledge of human society or culture, he would still identify as male because the concept of masculinity is an intrinsic and inborn part of his identity.

The amount of character description on PbtA sheets isn't large, but it's more than what D&D generally has.

I mean, "eye color", really? Yes, I eventually notice eye color, but it usually comes behind several things like "style of clothes"*, "build" (height/weight doesn't really cover it, it's both over-precise and insufficient information), "scruffiness", "physical demeanor" (how someone stands and moves, their resting expression), and "distinctive features" (sometimes eye or hair color is a distinctive feature, but not always).

While short PbtA-style descriptions don't necessarily get people picturing the same thing, I think they usually get people picturing a compatible thing in terms of theme / style. Meanwhile, you can know that a character is [male, 6'1", 190 lbs, brown eyes, black hair] and still have not only a different mental picture but an entirely different impression than the creator did.

*I know this is covered by inventory, technically. But I'm not a fashion expert, and so saying something like 'loose, colorful, trendy clothes' or 'army surplus survival gear' actually conveys more information than listing the exact articles of clothing which I'd probably have to look up.

Eye color is fairly straightforward and difficult to change. Style, demeanor, and scruffiness are all much harder to describe and much easier to change.

I once had a discussion with my girlfriend on if the legal concept of gender should be abolished. I'd go into it more but I can't here, suffice to say that for some goals it's the 'short term hassle, long term ease' option and the opposite for other causes.

I doget annoyed by having to put down my gender for things that don't need it, especially as a lot of the time I don't have the option to go nonbinary. It might be a cause of me disliking it on characters sheets (I'm a bit more ambivalent on sex fields, but wouldn't mind seeing them go). Then again my gender identity wanders between 'lightly male' and 'lightly female' and my sexuality between 'more attracted to women' and 'I wish I had the confidence to ask cute boys out', I'm not exactly in a large enough demographic for most form makers to care about.


Oh, for the record, if I was putting things on a character sheet in the order I tend to find them important when imagining someone:
-Relative height
-Weight/size (it helps build a silhouette)
-Hair colour
-Hair length (almost never on character sheets, why?)
-Skin colour
-Clothes they're wearing, including what that tells me about the gender they're presenting (again, why is it rarely given it's own section?)
-Hat?
-Eye colour, but only if we're comfortable enough to make eye contact
-Oh look it's a kitty!
-What's tucked between their legs

Notably people's order of importance will be different, I think eye colour is more important to most people than to me, but honestly making that list Going back to a characyer sheet I've designed for a game I've paused development on made me realise just how much space I'd given to the 'hair' field based on the assumption it'll include length/style.

Is what's between their legs visible? Because if so its going to draw my eyes pretty quickly, but normally this isn't the case if someone is clothed.

On a more serious note though, for whether someone is a man or a woman is probably the first thing I notice about them, particularly if they have visible secondary sex characteristics like beards of breasts.

I would say less than one percent of people are androgynous enough that you can't tell their sex right off by looking at the shape of their face or body, and I can only recall once in my life when I accidentally misgendered someone.

What does it mean for your body to "conform to one of those sexes?" And what "attributes" are expected to be "bundled" for someone to be "biologically X" or "biologically Y?" Is there are a threshold for such attributes that, once met, your body can be considered to be "conforming?"

I think there are pitfalls in assuming that there exist universal standards or answers for such things, as opposed to the distinctions being largely arbitrary conventions - especially when those conventions are often assigned at birth based on a more limited range of such "attributes" for the individual in question.

Now we are getting into continuum fallacy territory.

Just because one can't point to an exact point where someone becomes intersex doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[Kane0]

One big box marked ‘Description’

Edit: and if you’re worried about players leaving it blank insert prompts in the players handbook

[Anonymouswizard]

Is what's between their legs visible? Because if so its going to draw my eyes pretty quickly, but normally this isn't the case if someone is clothed.

How often are characters in your games devoid of clothes down there? Not that there aren't signs while wearing clothes (and thus products designed to alter those signs), but generally less noticeable ones.

As for it drawing the eyes? It depends on the person looking and the situation. Even then that pretty much just tells you what their trouser contents are.

On a more serious note though, for whether someone is a man or a woman is probably the first thing I notice about them, particularly if they have visible secondary sex characteristics like beards of breasts.

I did explicitly note 'gender they present as', but I do legitimately find it less important than hair length. Unless, of course, I'm trying to get their trousers off.

I would say less than one percent of people are androgynous enough that you can't tell their sex right off by looking at the shape of their face or body, and I can only recall once in my life when I accidentally misgendered someone.

And I know people who get misgendred multiple times a day despite presenting as their preferred gender. A focus on sex causes some people a lot of problems?

[Xervous]

One big box marked ‘Description’

Edit: and if you’re worried about players leaving it blank insert prompts in the players handbook

What sort of leading prompts would you suggest?

[Scots Dragon]

How often are characters in your games devoid of clothes down there?

That sort of thing really depends on the nature of the campaign.

[Satinavian]

That sort of thing really depends on the nature of the campaign.

The last time for me literally in the gaming session i had two hours ago.

[Anonymouswizard]

That sort of thing really depends on the nature of the campaign.

Well sure, but my partners haven't agreed to play yet.....


Oh, and setting and situational stuff I guess.

I remember 19 year old me being very interested in Cyberpunk 2020 when running across the Lifepath tables and seeing that one of the options was 'naked'. Mid-twenties me though is happy that got replaced in the new edition.

[Scots Dragon]

Well sure, but my partners haven't agreed to play yet.....


Oh, and setting and situational stuff I guess.

I remember 19 year old me being very interested in Cyberpunk 2020 when running across the Lifepath tables and seeing that one of the options was 'naked'. Mid-twenties me though is happy that got replaced in the new edition.

Random nudity can work in some settings if it's handled with the proper amount of maturity, balanced out with the right level of immaturity.

A cyberpunk setting could make it work. Probably best for more loincloths-and-scale-bikinis type Sword & Sorcery though.

[Anonymouswizard]

Random nudity can work in some settings if it's handled with the proper amount of maturity, balanced out with the right level of immaturity.

A cyberpunk setting could make it work. Probably best for more loincloths-and-scale-bikinis type Sword & Sorcery though.

Oh sure, and there's one game I own which I wish just included a line saying 'some groups wear no clothing, please treat it maturely'. It's rarely come up in my games due to sa tendency since about 2014 to have been playing city-based games in relatively modern eras, and any situations it might have appeared in were glossed over because everybody agreed it would be boring.

As I said, setting and situational stuff. It ust came after me making a really bad joke.

In Cyberpunk it's more a problem of the one in ten chance of your character's default outfit being nothing, no matter what, and rolled randomly than the nudity itself. In cyberpunk games once you get past a certain point of enhancement it can get to 'does it matter' territory, and I've created (but not played, I know few people who'd run cyberpunk games) characters who avoided certain augmentations, noticeably dermal armour, because the character wanted it to matter. Plus I'm a sucker for a Molly Millions-style razorgirl, which means that integrated armour is at best fourth on my list of priorities, and modesty closer to twentieth (but generally fulfilled because practical clothing tends to be modest).

I have nothing against nudity in games. It's just that, in my personal experience, it tends to be rare and an entire campaign can go by without it coming up.

[Satinavian]

I have nothing against nudity in games. It's just that, in my personal experience, it tends to be rare and an entire campaign can go by without it coming up.

Yes, it is rare, but not that rare.

- Your whole boby needs to be checked for signs of demonic corruption.
- You did something that completely ruined your outfit even if you yourself survived (possibly by being supernaturally durable)
- The systems version of polymorph/shapechange does not extend to clothing and equippment and when you change back, you are naked
- You don't bath/swin clothed but swimsuits are not a thing in the setting
- Your culture does not actually use clothing

All things that happened not too far ago at one of my tables. But as those tables are in the middle of Europe where the nudity taboo is far less strong, none of that was actually a plot point or something particularly noteworthy.

[Kardwill]

Eye color is fairly straightforward and difficult to change. Style, demeanor, and scruffiness are all much harder to describe and much easier to change.

Eye color is also mostly irrelevant to someone's appearance. Unless those eyes are very striking. How often do you remember the eye color of a character in a novel? Or the eye color of a fellow PC in game? Or the eye color of your own character, if you don't check it on the sheet.

I don't shy away from eye contact, but yet, I'm unable to tell you the eye color of my colleagues, including the ones that just left my office, and of most of my friends. And I can't really remember my own mother's eyes, even if I saw her this morning (Brown-ish? with some gold? Or was there some green?).

Demeanor, style, attitudes, built, mannerism, body odor are much more descriptive. "Brown eyes" is just an information, dry and mostly useless. "Inquisitive eyes, darting in every direction as I take in my surroundings" or "dead eyes looking into the distance and never making eye contact" are descriptions that give the character life. "A balding, heavily built man with a round belly and slouched shoulders, freaquently wiping sweat from his brow when he's nervous" is more descriptive that "1,77m, 115 kg, blond hair". A general image of the striking elements of your character are more important than biometric informations, because they will both guide your roleplay and keep in the mind of your fellow players. Maybe they won't have the exact description of your character, but they will have an image of what the character looks like.

And yes, those subjective descriptions can change. But it doesn't happen very often. We build an "image" of our PCs, and that image rarely changes, unless as part of a disguise or an character-evolution (like the fretting newbie becoming a self-assured veteran) that the player will usually describe. But usually, the caracter will stay the same and won't really change attitude nor style.

[Eldan]

Yes, it is rare, but not that rare.

- Your whole boby needs to be checked for signs of demonic corruption.
- You did something that completely ruined your outfit even if you yourself survived (possibly by being supernaturally durable)
- The systems version of polymorph/shapechange does not extend to clothing and equippment and when you change back, you are naked
- You don't bath/swin clothed but swimsuits are not a thing in the setting
- Your culture does not actually use clothing

All things that happened not too far ago at one of my tables. But as those tables are in the middle of Europe where the nudity taboo is far less strong, none of that was actually a plot point or something particularly noteworthy.

Huh. You're right. I was about to say we don't feature nudity much in our games, but then I remembered we recently had an assassination attempt on some of the PCs in a sauna.

[Eldan]

Eye color is also mostly irrelevant to someone's appearance. Unless those eyes are very striking. How often do you remember the eye color of a character in a novel? Or the eye color of a fellow PC in game? Or the eye color of your own character, if you don't check it on the sheet.

Unless it's GRRM and every time someone's eye colour is mentioned, you start a 20 page speculative thread about a character's secret ancestry somewhere.

[Xervous]

Unless it's GRRM and every time someone's eye colour is mentioned, you start a 20 page speculative thread about a character's secret ancestry somewhere.

Or it’s Stormlight Archives where eye color determines social caste and changing eye color indicates someone found a fantasy!lightsaber.

[Anonymouswizard]

Yes, it is rare, but not that rare.

- Your whole boby needs to be checked for signs of demonic corruption.
- You did something that completely ruined your outfit even if you yourself survived (possibly by being supernaturally durable)
- The systems version of polymorph/shapechange does not extend to clothing and equippment and when you change back, you are naked
- You don't bath/swin clothed but swimsuits are not a thing in the setting
- Your culture does not actually use clothing

All things that happened not too far ago at one of my tables. But as those tables are in the middle of Europe where the nudity taboo is far less strong, none of that was actually a plot point or something particularly noteworthy.

And none of them have happened at a table I played at for six years, mainly because things like bathing are just glossed over (and our characters tended to shower at home anyway). The one time any of those examples would have come up (, checking for demonic possession) anything or psychic couldn't detect had to be done by professional demonic possession specialists.

Like, I play in the UK where the nudity taboo is somewhere between the US and Europe. It probably would have up if we played in a single equivalent to pre-1940s, but I haven't for a while.

Or it’s Stormlight Archives where eye color determines social caste and changing eye color indicates someone found a fantasy!lightsaber.

Darn, now you've reminded me of the cosmere Jedi.

[Talakeal]

How often are characters in your games devoid of clothes down there? Not that there aren't signs while wearing clothes (and thus products designed to alter those signs), but generally less noticeable ones.

As for it drawing the eyes? It depends on the person looking and the situation. Even then that pretty much just tells you what their trouser contents are.

Are we talking about in game or in real life at this point? I thought we were discussing what people notice when they look at someone.

I did explicitly note 'gender they present as', but I do legitimately find it less important than hair length. Unless, of course, I'm trying to get their trousers off.

Different people I guess. I rarely notice hair length at all unless it is extremely long or short.

And I know people who get misgendred multiple times a day despite presenting as their preferred gender. A focus on sex causes some people a lot of problems?

That's unfortunate. But I really see that more of a problem with language and gender roles vs whether or not sex is a useful description.

I would ask for more details, but that's probably rude. As a guy with long hair, I do occasionally get mis-gendered by someone who sees me from the back though.

Eye color is also mostly irrelevant to someone's appearance. Unless those eyes are very striking. How often do you remember the eye color of a character in a novel? Or the eye color of a fellow PC in game? Or the eye color of your own character, if you don't check it on the sheet.

I don't shy away from eye contact, but yet, I'm unable to tell you the eye color of my colleagues, including the ones that just left my office, and of most of my friends. And I can't really remember my own mother's eyes, even if I saw her this morning (Brown-ish? with some gold? Or was there some green?).

Again, different people notice different things I guess.

I have no problem remembering the eye color of family, friends, and ex-girlfriends / previous close friends. For coworkers and fictional characters I have created, I can remember about four out of five.

Still though, my point was not that eye color is hugely important as a descriptive factor, just that it was well suited towards being on a form because it is relatively simple and unchanging.

Demeanor, style, attitudes, built, mannerism, body odor are much more descriptive. "Brown eyes" is just an information, dry and mostly useless. "Inquisitive eyes, darting in every direction as I take in my surroundings" or "dead eyes looking into the distance and never making eye contact" are descriptions that give the character life. "A balding, heavily built man with a round belly and slouched shoulders, frequently wiping sweat from his brow when he's nervous" is more descriptive that "1,77m, 115 kg, blond hair". A general image of the striking elements of your character are more important than biometric informations, because they will both guide your roleplay and keep in the mind of your fellow players. Maybe they won't have the exact description of your character, but they will have an image of what the character looks like.

And yes, those subjective descriptions can change. But it doesn't happen very often. We build an "image" of our PCs, and that image rarely changes, unless as part of a disguise or an character-evolution (like the fretting newbie becoming a self-assured veteran) that the player will usually describe. But usually, the character will stay the same and won't really change attitude nor style.

There are advantages and disadvantages to forms and to freeform descriptions.

I prefer to have both, I just lean toward forms if I had to choose. It is easier for me to keep track of information that way, and I find that many players will, without prompting, either write almost nothing or write so much that the important bits get lost in a sea of purple prose.

I would personally have real trouble trying to describe a real person using descriptions like you gave above, let alone trying to guide my role-play with it. Most people just don't have consistent expressions or body language or dramatic mannerisms, let alone one's that convey their personality.

But, on the other hand, maybe someone who is more visually acute than I am gets more out of subtlety than absolutes.

[Psyren]

Now we are getting into continuum fallacy territory.

Just because one can't point to an exact point where someone becomes intersex doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I'm not saying such a point doesn't exist; I'm saying it's not universal, and there are a lot of ways it can vary among individuals. A short field labelled "biological sex" or even just "sex" therefore isn't likely to do the concept justice; you made this thread to ask for honest feedback, and in summary, that's mine.

One big box marked ‘Description’

Edit: and if you’re worried about players leaving it blank insert prompts in the players handbook

This is in fact what 5e and PF2e ended up doing, and is the approach I'm most aligned with personally. I'm also fine with "Features", "Background", "Traits" and similar.

[Anonymouswizard]

Different people I guess. I rarely notice hair length at all unless it is extremely long or short.

Which is why I'm generally a proponent of a Description box rather than a form (although I'm fine with a form if it leaves enough space for other stuff).

That's unfortunate. But I really see that more of a problem with language and gender roles vs whether or not sex is a useful description.

I would ask for more details, but that's probably rude. As a guy with long hair, I do occasionally get mis-gendered by someone who sees me from the back though.

It's a problem with people making assumptions based on physical characteristics. People tend to make a lot of assumptions based on jawline, hair length, and breast size. Sadly, British politeness means I can't slap a shop attendent if they misgender people I know.

I personally get misgendered quite a bit, but that's because I tend not to bother one way or another and society tends to assume male by default, so unless I start making efforts to make girl mode feminine (which I should, but I always forget to buy me some jewellery and shirts) people will address me as male unless I correct them (also I look fairly masculine by default, but nothing some strategic changes can't fix).


Okay, here's what it would take for me to be happy with a form-like character sheet: give field for both sex assigned at birth and gender identity, and make at least the second one long enough to include a few words.;Generfluid tending female' is enough to make me happy, although I'm sure there's people out there on the internet who would write a six page story on their character's gender identity.

[BisectedBrioche]

It's a problem with people making assumptions based on physical characteristics. People tend to make a lot of assumptions based on jawline, hair length, and breast size. Sadly, British politeness means I can't slap a shop attendent if they misgender people I know.

I personally get misgendered quite a bit, but that's because I tend not to bother one way or another and society tends to assume male by default, so unless I start making efforts to make girl mode feminine (which I should, but I always forget to buy me some jewellery and shirts) people will address me as male unless I correct them (also I look fairly masculine by default, but nothing some strategic changes can't fix).


Okay, here's what it would take for me to be happy with a form-like character sheet: give field for both sex assigned at birth and gender identity, and make at least the second one long enough to include a few words.;Generfluid tending female' is enough to make me happy, although I'm sure there's people out there on the internet who would write a six page story on their character's gender identity.

Sadly {Scrubbed} I can't kick out a customer who does something similar.

I can correct colleagues, though. ^_^

[Lemmy]

I only had 1 intersex PC in my games so far...

It was years ago and I didn't even know what it meant. So I just asked if it had any mechanical effect in the game and what the character looks like (as that may impact how NPCs interact with it).

The player didn't want to have any mechanical effect, it was a role-playing choice... And gave me a description of the character (Well... An image and "They look like this, but with these minor changes...").

So... I said "OK". And that was it.

I suppose I could've thought up how the society of the region where the game took place reacts to intersex PCs... But, since sexuality in general doesn't have a lot of "screen time" in my games, and I didn't know much about intersex people (and still don't, TBH), I just ruled it was uncommon enough that society had no standard response to it... And let the player decide how this would affect the character's backstory, personality and behavior, if at all.

The player seemed to be satisfied... And enjoyed playing her character, so... Success!

In general, my standard policy for role-playing choices that don't have any mechanical impact and don't disrupt the campaign is "Sure... Why not?".

[Frogreaver]

"Biological sex" is more complicated than a distinction from gender. Gender identity is, in fact, a sex marker. Three of the other markers can be changed (hormones, secondary sexual characteristics and genitals).

Trying to define a nonbinary person by their Assigned Gender At Birth (AGAB) is incredibly rude, and deserves no justification in my book (besides, in my experience you can't tell what someone has, or had, in their pants unless they tell you; and that's not a common situation).

I think some people also find it incredibly rude that anyone would insist they refer to you by anything other than your AGAB.

Which is one place where table problems can easily arise with that stuff.

[False God]

I think some people also find it incredibly rude that anyone would insist they refer to you by anything other than your AGAB.

Which is one place where table problems can easily arise with that stuff.

I never understand this objection. We have names right? We were given these things at birth, essentially against our will. William, Jenny, Carl, Frank, but noone gets upset when William wants to be called Billy, or when Jenny goes by Sue, or when Carl goes by his dead-great-grandfather's name Ashby. They need give no greater reason for it other than "I prefer to be called Frank." To refer to them as Francis shows a disregard for their value in your eyes as a person, that they are not equal, that you get to determine what they are called and how you refer to them.

Why? To whose benefit is it? Not theirs certainly. Why do you need power and control over others lives?

Further, I don't typically refer to people as "guy", or "girl". I know the names of everyone at my table. I don't call the guy players "dude" or "bro" or "chick" or "woman" because it's non-specific and can lead to confusion when I'm talking to people. I refer to them as Billy, Sue, Ashby or Frank, so it's clear who I'm talking to.

When I want to get the guy named Frank's attention, I say "Hey Frank!" I don't go "Hey male-person!" because that's silly and confusing.

To continue, you may never know that Frank used to be Francine. There may be nothing about them that gives away a switch in sex and gender(unless that's something you're looking for, which is...weird to say the least). Learning that later and then switching over to calling them Francine and referring to them as a girl takes more effort on your part, especially to unlearn that you originally knew them as the boy Frank. Except to establish that you get to determine what they are called, not themselves.

So why insist on silliness? If Jake the boy wants to be Jenny the girl, call them Jenny. They're happy, and nothing about your life became any more difficult. The only thing you've given up is control over others, which you were never entitled to in the first place.

[Frogreaver]

I never understand this objection. We have names right? We were given these things at birth, essentially against our will. William, Jenny, Carl, Frank, but noone gets upset when William wants to be called Billy, or when Jenny goes by Sue, or when Carl goes by his dead-great-grandfather's name Ashby. They need give no greater reason for it other than "I prefer to be called Frank." To refer to them as Francis shows a disregard for their value in your eyes as a person, that they are not equal, that you get to determine what they are called and how you refer to them.

Names don't typically come with any preexisting baggage right? I mean if I demanded to be called by the name "Lord President Frogreaver greatest in the land" you don't think people would have a problem with that and refuse to do so?

Why? To whose benefit is it? Not theirs certainly. Why do you need power and control over others lives?

What benefit do you get by forcing others to use a specific pronoun to refer to you? We both know it's been common practice for quite some time for people to use the pronoun corresponding to ones AGAB. Why insist on asserting your power and control over their lives?

Further, I don't typically refer to people as "guy", or "girl". I know the names of everyone at my table. I don't call the guy players "dude" or "bro" or "chick" or "woman" because it's non-specific and can lead to confusion when I'm talking to people. I refer to them as Billy, Sue, Ashby or Frank, so it's clear who I'm talking to.

When I want to get the guy named Frank's attention, I say "Hey Frank!" I don't go "Hey male-person!" because that's silly and confusing.

I don't think it's hard to understand that different people do different things.

To continue, you may never know that Frank used to be Francine. There may be nothing about them that gives away a switch in sex and gender(unless that's something you're looking for, which is...weird to say the least). Learning that later and then switching over to calling them Francine and referring to them as a girl takes more effort on your part, especially to unlearn that you originally knew them as the boy Frank. Except to establish that you get to determine what they are called, not themselves.

Sure. And the flipside is that they may have found it offensive that you hid that from them. And they may also find it controlling that you are telling them they need to use pronouns differently than they always have just to accommodate you.

So why insist on silliness? If Jake the boy wants to be Jenny the girl, call them Jenny. They're happy, and nothing about your life became any more difficult. The only thing you've given up is control over others, which you were never entitled to in the first place.

Seems pretty clear: It's about not being controlled by others who should be able to understand that some other people prefer to use the pronoun corresponding to someone's AGAB. Why are ya'll the privleged ones that should get made happy here instead of those that prefer to use pronouns based on AGAB? What becomes more difficult in your life for making them happy? Does anything about your self identity actually change regardless of whether they call you a he or a she?

I mean consider for a moment how different the conversation and reaction would go if you said: I get some people want to use the pronoun corresponding to my AGAB and if that's the only way they are comfortable that's cool. I view myself currently as best being defined by the pronoun X. I prefer when I'm referred to by X but if someone is really not comfortable with that then I get it and they should use whatever they are comfortable with. IMO, if you show you are willing to accommodate their viewpoints and feelings, many of them will be willing to accommodate yours too, or will come around to it before long. I really think the biggest pushback to what you want is due to a perceived attempt that what you are actually doing is trying to control and force people into doing what you want them to.

[Satinavian]

I never understand this objection. We have names right? We were given these things at birth, essentially against our will. William, Jenny, Carl, Frank, but noone gets upset when William wants to be called Billy, or when Jenny goes by Sue, or when Carl goes by his dead-great-grandfather's name Ashby. They need give no greater reason for it other than "I prefer to be called Frank." To refer to them as Francis shows a disregard for their value in your eyes as a person, that they are not equal, that you get to determine what they are called and how you refer to them.

How difficult changing your name is can be very culture and country dependent. There are places where officially declaring that you are some other gender than previously assumed just gives you a viable reason to change your name but the name change still has to follow certain rules and has to be approved. Sure, there are artists aliases and nicknames but a person who does not want to be referred to by their real, official, hard to change name would be seen as quite strange. It seems that names don't carry much weight in the Anglo world, but that is far from universal.

It seems nowadays easier to get people to respect ones preferred gender than to respect a self-chosen name (that does not come with a gender switch). There is some awareness that Trans-people exist and many are willing to accomodate them even if they don't really get the concept but i don't see similar tolerance towards people who feel their name is off.


The only problem with referring to people with pronouns fitting the gender they say they are instead of ones you guess fom their appeareance is that actually have to memorize their gender. Which, honestly, you actually don't need for anything else. But for the record, it is still something i very much think everyone should try to do as some kind of generally expected curtsy


It is very different in game as gender there might have significant impact on your social opportunities and how accepting the ingame culture is of anything resembling Trans behavior might differ as well. But it is basically impossible to discuss this without going ino details about specific settings and the expectations there.

[Psyren]

@Frogreaver: If someone tells you their preferred pronouns, and you purposefully ignore their wishes, at the very least that indicates a lack of respect for them as a human being. I can only hope that's not what you're advocating for.

Requiring a moniker like "lord president X greatest in all the land" to accompany your name at all times is argumentum ad absurdum.

[BisectedBrioche]

I think some people also find it incredibly rude that anyone would insist they refer to you by anything other than your AGAB.

Which is one place where table problems can easily arise with that stuff.

Some people find it incredibly upsetting when married women keep their maiden name, what's your point?

Misgendering a trans person for any reason (short of not outing them as trans when they don't wish to be) is wrong, and I don't feel that needs any further qualifier.