Intersex PCs

[Frogreaver]

Some people find it incredibly upsetting when married women keep their maiden name, what's your point?

Misgendering a trans person for any reason (short of not outing them as trans when they don't wish to be) is wrong, and I don't feel that needs any further qualifier.

No one is misgendering anyone though. They use gender to refer to something different than you do. They use it to refer to AGAB and everyone agrees on what someone's AGAB is. You use gender to refer to how you internally perceive yourself (a bit more nuanced I'm sure). So the offense you feel is essentially you getting offended by a semantical difference and that offense is causing you to offend them by insisting they use gender pronouns in a way they prefer not to and equating their preferred use with morality, ie right and wrong.

[Anonymouswizard]

No one is misgendering anyone though. They use gender to refer to something different than you do. They use it to refer to AGAB and everyone agrees on what someone's AGAB is. You use gender to refer to how you internally perceive yourself (a bit more nuanced I'm sure). So the offense you feel is essentially you getting offended by a semantical difference and that offense is causing you to offend them by insisting they use gender pronouns in a way they prefer not to and equating their preferred use with morality, ie right and wrong.

Well they're wrong then. They might be right off they used the word sex, but certainly not for gender.

AGAB also really leaves out a lot of complexity and assumes that it's based entirely on genitals, whereas you can have nonambiguous genitals and be chromosomally or hormonally* intersex. Language isn't clear cut, but standard convention is 'physical=sex, mental=gender'.


Heck, I get misnamed a lot, and it's very annoying. Despite my preferred name only being the syllables long and my ANAB, everybody insists on using a diminutive. And it's really annoying. But it's only a hundredth as annoying as presenting as one gender and people insisting that you are another one.

* I'm not sure if this is officially an intersex condition, but there are people whose sex hormones aren't classically 'male' or 'female'.

[False God]

Names don't typically come with any preexisting baggage right? I mean if I demanded to be called by the name "Lord President Frogreaver greatest in the land" you don't think people would have a problem with that and refuse to do so?

Names can come with a LOT of baggage. Maybe you were named after your Uncle Kelly, but it turns out that Kelly is a psycho and did some horrible things, but since you've got the same last name (father's brother) there's a lot of confusion and every time you tell someone your name they're like "Oh, Kelly Jones the guy who killed 5 people and ate the ears?" So you go by Rick.

{Scrubbed}

[Kardwill]

So the offense you feel is essentially you getting offended by a semantical difference

Nah, the offense they feel is that their will is ignored. Just like you would be offended if someone called you an obnoxious nickname, you told them to stop and use your real name or your prefered nickname, and the person still insisted about using the obnoxious one "because it's the nickname that I heard when other people talk about you". Forgeting about a person's preferences or not knowing about them happens, but ignoring it on purpose is rude.

[Kardwill]

I would personally have real trouble trying to describe a real person using descriptions like you gave above, .

And I would too. But we're talking about characters, not real people, and iconic characters are easier to describe with those attributes.

I mean, I could pretty easily give a description of Indiana Jones by using attitudes, demeanor, facial expressions, general built and garments. But I'm completely unable to tell you how tall Harrison Ford is, or what is his eye color :)

[KaussH]

No one is misgendering anyone though. They use gender to refer to something different than you do. They use it to refer to AGAB and everyone agrees on what someone's AGAB is. You use gender to refer to how you internally perceive yourself (a bit more nuanced I'm sure). So the offense you feel is essentially you getting offended by a semantical difference and that offense is causing you to offend them by insisting they use gender pronouns in a way they prefer not to and equating their preferred use with morality, ie right and wrong.

If someone gives you their name and/pronoun, people should use them as given.
If someone comes up to you and says " hi i am bob" and you go " you look like a doug to me, so i will call you that instead" that is seen as rude and a jerk move. Same goes for a given pronoun. It doesnt matter what others think they should be. What they give is what they are and if that makes someone else upset well... their body, name,gender, ect.

( and yes mistakes happen, moreso when you knew them as x and now its y, thats a whole diff issue)

[Frogreaver]

Names can come with a LOT of baggage. Maybe you were named after your Uncle Kelly, but it turns out that Kelly is a psycho and did some horrible things, but since you've got the same last name (father's brother) there's a lot of confusion and every time you tell someone your name they're like "Oh, Kelly Jones the guy who killed 5 people and ate the ears?" So you go by Rick.

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

1. You didn’t even address the point of the paragraph you responded to.

2. Don’t respond then. If you want to refuse to see how others view your demands on them then that’s on you.

[JNAProductions]

Frogreaver, I don't like the pants you're wearing. You should wear a skirt instead.
And only wear blue shirts-no other colors allowed.

Feels kinda ridiculous, doesn't it? I shouldn't be allowed to dictate how you present yourself. If you want to wear sweats with a red shirt, that's your choice, and it's certainly not harming anyone else.

Likewise, if someone who's AMAB presents as female, it's not hurting anyone else. Respect her wishes, and don't force your own onto her. If you make mistakes, that's okay-I had an experience where I met a woman who was early in her transition, and didn't realize she was presenting as a woman. I referred to her with a male pronoun, and she looked upset at that-so I apologized, and made sure to not make the same mistake again. But there's a world of difference between making a mistake and intentionally misgendering someone.

[Frogreaver]

Well they're wrong then. They might be right off they used the word sex, but certainly not for gender.

Sorry, but you don't get to define words for others. If by gender they mean AGAB, then they are certainly using the correct pronoun to denote that concept. At that point it would be objectively incorrect of them to use a pronoun that didn't correspond to the AGAB.

That's exactly where the pushback is too. Demanding someone change their definition to yours never goes over well. We see the issues of that stance everyday on the internet as most debates ultimately boil down at their core to people using words differently and both sides stay entrenched.

What does someone referring to you/others by the pronoun associated with their AGAB harm anything?

*Now if they are demanding you refer to yourself/themselves by the pronoun associated with your AGAB I'd be pushing back on them just as hard.

[JNAProductions]

Because some terrible people will literally murder someone if they present differently from their AGAB.

Trans folk face a crapton of prejudice and hate and all manner of badness. Don’t make it worse.

Edit: Frogreaver, how would you feel if you were a feminine-looking man or a masculine-looking woman, and people called you by the wrong pronoun?

[Frogreaver]

Frogreaver, I don't like the pants you're wearing. You should wear a skirt instead.
And only wear blue shirts-no other colors allowed.

Feels kinda ridiculous, doesn't it?

Not really. Because like most adults I don't care what a random person on the internet thinks I should or shouldn't do...

I shouldn't be allowed to dictate how you present yourself.

100% Agreed. Only issue here is that someone else using your AGAB isn't dictating how you present yourself.

Likewise, if someone who's AMAB presents as female, it's not hurting anyone else.

100% agreed.

Respect her wishes, and don't force your own onto her.

100% disagree. Respect is a 2 way street. She/he can call herself by whatever pronoun she/he wants. No issue there. The issue is demanding things from others.

But there's a world of difference between making a mistake and intentionally misgendering someone.

When half the world uses a different definition of gender than you, the only mistake IMO is not realizing that's the reason they are (from your perspective) 'misgendering' you. I would think it would be hard to take offense at someone 'misgendering' you when you realize that it's due to different definition, ie semantics.

Of course that assumes that the offense being taken isn't due to something deeper, like wanting everyone in society to accept you as if you were no different in any meaningful way from a male/female that matches their AGAB. That's a fine thing to want. I see the appeal, but I don't see how you can claim the moral highroad by demanding others do anything.

Because some terrible people will literally murder someone if they present differently from their AGAB.

Trans folk face a crapton of prejudice and hate and all manner of badness. Don’t make it worse.

I'm with you. Let's condemn all that. Is your argument really that people would be good using the AGAB if it wasn't for that hate and fear? If that's all it is you'd find alot more allies. But that's not really the case is it?

Edit: Frogreaver, how would you feel if you were a feminine-looking man or a masculine-looking woman, and people called you by the wrong pronoun?

Apparently on the phone and such I am a feminine sounding man as I often get referred to as female at drive thru's and over the phone when I call into businesses. Slightly annoying, but 99% of the time I let it slide and most of those times I don't even correct them. Only time I don't is when I'm already agravated at them or their company for other reasons and I use that as ammunition.

IMO. It's hard to get mad at someone when you realize they have a legitimate reason for doing something.

[Anonymouswizard]

What does someone referring to you/others by the pronoun associated with their AGAB harm anything?

Because words can cause offence and dig up mental pain, because it implies that the speaker does not except the person as the gender they wish to present, and many more besides. Because I know people who can't return home without fear of essentially being tortured unless they present as their AGAB.

On a very simple, genericised level, because of the reason a British spy show had to be renamed when exported because the title, a term for spies, is a racist slur in some places. This was not the intended meaning, but the fact that the name got changed not to offend people is a good thing.

If somebody is actively presenting female and asks you to use female pronouns how difficult is it for people to use said pronouns even if that person's name was, or even is, Edward Cecil Henry Smythe, In cases where you knew this person before they came out it's understandable that there may be an adjustment period, but otherwise it is equivalent to intentionally using the wrong name.

Eddie Izzard has stated that she doesn't mind people not using her preferred pronouns, but it's still polite to do so. I don't believe that Elliot Page has said the same thing, so you should use he/him/his to show that you accept his gender identity.


Remember it's only another three years until Eddie Izzard comes out as genderfluid yet again. Because people always seem to forget that she is.

[Cluedrew]

To Frogreaver: (Or Lord President Frogreaver greatest in the land if that wasn't sarcastic.) One thing you haven't explained is why do you want to use AGAB as the basis for pronouns anyways. Most of your arguments have been more along the lines of it not being worse (not getting into the counter arguments here) and not why there is a good reason to do it?

For the sake of honesty I should point out I will be very surprised if you have a good reason but I can't say its impossible. It might be impossible to outweigh all reasons in the other direction.

[Frogreaver]

Because words can cause offence and dig up mental pain,

Sure. Have you ever stopped to consider that forcing someone into using words they don't prefer could also cause offense and dig up mental pain?

because it implies that the speaker does not except the person as the gender they wish to present,

I think you are right that this is typically the case now. But 2 things.
1. Is it really that implausible that someone could insist that they use your AGAB pronoun while fully accepting that you are currently presenting as female?
2. Why does it matter if they accept you as you wish to present? Is it actually harming you if they don't?

Because I know people who can't return home without fear of essentially being tortured unless they present as their AGAB.

That's terrible. But you still can't force those parents to accept them and if you somehow managed to you would just be shifting the torture and fear onto the parents, which isn't particularly good or right either IMO.

If somebody is actively presenting female and asks you to use female pronouns how difficult is it for people to use said pronouns

It's not the difficulty of the request, it's that what you are requesting goes against how those people use pronouns and the word gender. Making that request is offensive to them. The same question can be reversed: How difficult is it to use the pronouns the way they want them to be used?

[BisectedBrioche]

A person's name and pronouns are how they're addressed. Deliberately misnaming or misgendering someone is an insult in pretty much any context (be it by refusing to remember someone's name, a child calling his classmate a girl as an insult or coming up with an insulting nickname). Even without bringing trans people (who by definition have been forced to identify as something they're not for at least part of their lives) into it.

If you accidentally say something rude, you either apologise or double down on it, and turn it into a deliberate insult.

Trying to turn that around and saying "actually, the effort to call you by the right name/pronouns is just too much; I'm the real victim here" just doesn't fly.

[Roland St. Jude]

A person's name and pronouns are how they're addressed. Deliberately misnaming or misgendering someone is an insult in pretty much any context (be it by refusing to remember someone's name, a child calling his classmate a girl as an insult or coming up with an insulting nickname).

Sheriff: In case it needs to be restated, this is the case here on this Forum.

If you accidentally say something rude, you either apologise or double down on it, and turn it into a deliberate insult.

Trying to turn that around and saying "actually, the effort to call you by the right name/pronouns is just too much; I'm the real victim here" just doesn't fly.

And I will add to this that here on this Forum, we don't accept sophistry and semantic excuses for what is plainly bad (rule violating) behavior.

[Anonymouswizard]

EDIT :Cutting this down to the one bit I really wanted to say.

I think you are right that this is typically the case now. But 2 things.
1. Is it really that implausible that someone could insist that they use your AGAB pronoun while fully accepting that you are currently presenting as female?
2. Why does it matter if they accept you as you wish to present? Is it actually harming you if they don't?

1) Yes, they've shown that either they aren't listening to me or don't care about my feelings.
2) Nonacceptance is the first step on the road to systematic oppression.

[Frogreaver]

EDIT :Cutting this down to the one bit I really wanted to say.



1) Yes, they've shown that either they aren't listening to me or don't care about my feelings.
2) Nonacceptance is the first step on the road to systematic oppression.

Based on the above I do not believe this can be openly discussed here without breaking the rules. I respectfully bow out.

[KaussH]

Based on the above I do not believe this can be openly discussed here without breaking the rules. I respectfully bow out.

Well.... it has been openly discussed here, without breaking the rules, by a number of people with slightly diff version on the topic. The big diff seems to be everyone else is " well, what works for them"

On that note, that seems to be good point to work with. What works for your players that are effected by it.
I think a small description is good, but then i like to note key points for my charicter to help me keep them in mind.

[Cluedrew]

A person's name and pronouns are how they're addressed. Deliberately misnaming or misgendering someone is an insult in pretty much any context

The exception being nicknames the named likes or doesn't mind. But then they will not ask you to stop which is an (perhaps the) important difference.

[BisectedBrioche]

The exception being nicknames the named likes or doesn't mind. But then they will not ask you to stop which is an (perhaps the) important difference.

Interestingly enough, under English Common Law, someone's legal name is basically "whatever people call you". So a nickname someone accepts is legally as much their name as whatever they have on their papers.

It also means it's super easy to change your name here.

[Anonymouswizard]

Interestingly enough, under English Common Law, someone's legal name is basically "whatever people call you". So a nickname someone accepts is legally as much their name as whatever they have on their papers.

It also means it's super easy to change your name here.

I believe it's a bit more complicated, but yeah there's no strict definition of a legal name here.

Yeah, I just double checked out, and to legally change your name you just write a certain phrase on a piece of paper, sign it under your dead and new identities with your address, and get two witnesses to put their signatures and addresses on it. Plus sending it to the courts with less money than it reaches to buy Cyberpunk 2077 to get it on public record, but you don't have to do that for it to be your legal name. This is a great thing. I also believe it's more about record keeping than making the change legal.

I'm considering doing it to add a couple of feminine names to my legal name. It means I'll have five names instead of three, but hey, more names is good names. If it wasn't for lockdown I could get it fully legally binding with two phone calls and a train ticket.

[RedMage125]

Well, this thread has turned fascinating.

I have never understood the mindset of people who act like refusing to use preferred pronouns is "forcing something on them". To me, it always just seemed like a jerk move.

To Frogreaver's credit, I think he explained it in a way that, at least academically, makes sense. I can at least understand a little bit of why they think what they do.

I mean, I still disagree with him. But I understand a little better now. I think that's something that has value, in and of itself. I'd prefer to understand where my disagreements with others stem from, rather than just believe they're unreasonable A-holes.

[Floret]

I mean, I still disagree with him. But I understand a little better now. I think that's something that has value, in and of itself. I'd prefer to understand where my disagreements with others stem from, rather than just believe they're unreasonable A-holes.

While I agree it's always nice to be able to at least know where others are coming from... The problem with the perspective he proclaims isn't just that I disagree pronouns should be use that way (Although I do.) The problem is that it's mostly fiction. While I don't want to claim (and have no basis for such claim anyways) that Frogreaver doesn't believe what he's saying... He isn't gonna act like he says he does.

If AGAB is indeed that important for a person in determining what pronouns to use, they'd have to either live in constant uncertainty or avoidance of pronouns alltogether - or have to be naive enough to truly believe they can tell AGAB perfectly. Including in text-only internet conversations.

But even outside, birth assignment is hardly clearly visible in all people. Sure, you'll have reasonable luck guessing based on context clues, but your hitrate will never truly be 100%. (And, no. No matter how well you think you can clock trans people... You can't. And if you think you're perfect at it? You're probably even worse.) But... that is not using them according to AGAB, it is using them based on what you guess their AGAB most likely is. Which means you use them based off of gender presentation. And not off of AGAB.

The only situation where there can be an active choice between using pronouns based off AGAB or gender presentation, is if you know they do not line up. The only situation, where the active linguistic choice comes up at all, is to actively and knowingly misgender a trans person. I'm... sceptical if I can consider that a deeply held belief separate from just plain transphobia.

(Also, if you insist on using "he" for trans women, because you know they're trans? In a lot of cases, you mostly just make yourself unintelligeble. There was a conversation a while back where Blair White of all people pointed out something to Ben Shapiro - if you were to talk about her, in public, to a stranger, and mentioned "That man over there", people just wouldn't understand who you mean.)

I cannot truly consider this a valid position.

Because, simply put, pronouns just don't work off of AGAB. How they work happens to coincide with AGAB most of the time, but humans have simply never used them that way - because for all but a small minority of the people you interact with, you don't know their AGAB. And even in this thread explicitly about it has been made by less than half the participants. Somehow that doesn't stop Frogreaver, who claims to use pronouns based off AGAB from using gendered pronouns for other commenters.

[Frogreaver]

Well, this thread has turned fascinating.

I have never understood the mindset of people who act like refusing to use preferred pronouns is "forcing something on them". To me, it always just seemed like a jerk move.

To Frogreaver's credit, I think he explained it in a way that, at least academically, makes sense. I can at least understand a little bit of why they think what they do.

I mean, I still disagree with him. But I understand a little better now. I think that's something that has value, in and of itself. I'd prefer to understand where my disagreements with others stem from, rather than just believe they're unreasonable A-holes.

Thank you. That's all I was hoping for. And it's okay to disagree!

[Scots Dragon]

It's not the difficulty of the request, it's that what you are requesting goes against how those people use pronouns and the word gender. Making that request is offensive to them. The same question can be reversed: How difficult is it to use the pronouns the way they want them to be used?

Because they're my gender and pronouns, not theirs.

If someone can't respect that, they're a jerk.

[Satinavian]

Interestingly enough, under English Common Law, someone's legal name is basically "whatever people call you". So a nickname someone accepts is legally as much their name as whatever they have on their papers.

It also means it's super easy to change your name here.

Yes, that is why i said names don't carry much weight in the Anglosphere. It is often very different elsewhere. It is not uncommon that you have to prove at court that you have a really good reason to change the name which will otherwise be denied and even then you are limited in what kind of changes you are allowed to make.

[137beth]

Some people find it incredibly upsetting when married women keep their maiden name, what's your point?

Some people also find it very upsetting when adopted people use their adopted parents' last name. I've heard the phrase "biological last name" brought up in such discussions, which sounds to me like a phrase someone would use if they knew "biological" was a vaguely science-ey sounding word, but didn't know what it actually meant.

Interestingly enough, under English Common Law, someone's legal name is basically "whatever people call you". So a nickname someone accepts is legally as much their name as whatever they have on their papers.

It also means it's super easy to change your name here.

In the U.S., the difficulty of changing your legal name varies wildly by state. However, it turns out there are very few cases where you actually need to use your legal name. I filled out and signed a lease with a fairly large real estate company under the name "Ben." Ben is not my legal name, and it never has been, but that didn't matter. The only time I have to use my legal name is on government documents.

[Cluedrew]

Interestingly enough, under English Common Law, someone's legal name is basically "whatever people call you". So a nickname someone accepts is legally as much their name as whatever they have on their papers.

I was actually thinking of nickname as in the sense of something only a couple people refer to you as. Your point stands I just felt I should clarify.

To Frogreaver's credit, I think he explained it in a way that, at least academically, makes sense. I can at least understand a little bit of why they think what they do.

Do you think you could explain it? I did not follow the argument at all.

Actually I'm not entirely sure if there was an argument beyond "don't force me to change how I use pronouns" which isn't wrong but also doesn't explain why they don't want to use gender identity pronouns in the first place. I can easily believe there is a good reason for that position I would be shocked if it outweighed the reasons one should use identity pronouns. But maybe Frogreaver just hasn't... encountered some of the reasons why you should. After what some people I know have gone through I will take that inconvenience in a heartbeat to help out.

[Talakeal]

For the record, I did not mean to discuss gender identity in this thread, although I think I may start a new topic on the issue as it has raised many new questions for me.

I do state that I do consider myself genderqueer, support people's right to transition (to whatever extent they like) with full legal rights and privileges, and will not (intentionally) misgender someone regardless of their preferred pronouns. I know that I personally use female avatars online and, for me, being misgendered in those situations is a feeling akin to walking along a trail and realizing the stick in front of me is actually a snake, and I can't imagine how much more hurtful it must be in face to face dealings.

Also, thank you to everyone for keeping this civil and to the moderators for allowing us to discuss such a sensitive topic!

I'm not saying such a point doesn't exist; I'm saying it's not universal, and there are a lot of ways it can vary among individuals. A short field labelled "biological sex" or even just "sex" therefore isn't likely to do the concept justice; you made this thread to ask for honest feedback, and in summary, that's mine.

This is in fact what 5e and PF2e ended up doing, and is the approach I'm most aligned with personally. I'm also fine with "Features", "Background", "Traits" and similar.

I was asking for advice about intersex characters, not about character sheet design, which is only tangentially related.

Not that I am not willing to have that discussion.

As I have said, I prefer sheets that have both forms and open ended boxes, and my own system uses both. But, if I had to choose one, I personally find forms easier to use and get everyone on the same page for description (avoiding power gamers with numbers only sheets or long winded purple prose from frustrated author types like myself).

AFAICT the PF2 sheet has no space for "fluff" whatsoever, which is imo the worst of all.

Which is why I'm generally a proponent of a Description box rather than a form (although I'm fine with a form if it leaves enough space for other stuff).



It's a problem with people making assumptions based on physical characteristics. People tend to make a lot of assumptions based on jawline, hair length, and breast size. Sadly, British politeness means I can't slap a shop attendent if they misgender people I know.

I personally get misgendered quite a bit, but that's because I tend not to bother one way or another and society tends to assume male by default, so unless I start making efforts to make girl mode feminine (which I should, but I always forget to buy me some jewellery and shirts) people will address me as male unless I correct them (also I look fairly masculine by default, but nothing some strategic changes can't fix).


Okay, here's what it would take for me to be happy with a form-like character sheet: give field for both sex assigned at birth and gender identity, and make at least the second one long enough to include a few words.;Generfluid tending female' is enough to make me happy, although I'm sure there's people out there on the internet who would write a six page story on their character's gender identity.

Ok, to clarify, are the people you are talking about being misgendered cisgendered or genderqueer?

Because, again I am talking about physical sex as a description, not about gender identity.

I really wish our language had a word for physical sex that lacked that baggage of either sex or gender as well as gender neutral pronouns, it would make these sort of discussions, and life in general, so much easier.