Raziere Reads: Rhythm Of War

[Lord Raziere]

For Christmas I got the fourth book of the Stormlight Archive, Rhythm of War. so I decided, why not share my thoughts as I read to everyone as my own kind of present? I do love me Brandon Sanderson works after all and I hope you do to.
Stormlight Archive in particular is what I think of as Cosmere Ball Z, because its basically the most anime series of all his works.

Spoiler: Last Time on Cosmere Ball Z....

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Dalinar Kholin had just won a victory against Odium's forces at Thaylen City denying Odium's attempts to manipulate him into being his champion, meanwhile Kaladin has been grappling with the fact that he cannot save everyone and is in despair at the lives lost despite his oaths. Shallan has developed three personalities total and is attempting to balance them but found happiness and a marriage to Adolin, while Jasnah Kholin has been named the new ruler of Alethkar against all tradition, while Adolin admitted to his father that he killed Sadeas.

but Odium has secretly approached Taravangian to plot the downfall of Dalinar after demonstrating how outplanned Taravangian truly is. This war is only just beginning....

There will of course be tons of spoilers so.....you haven't read the other books? probably should read, but then again with this series there is so much going on I doubt you'd have much context for all this anyways.

Spoiler: Prologue-Part 1

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The prologue is about Navani Kholin, former wife of Gavilar and now wife of Dalinar. basically her marriage is loveless, Gavilar hints he has these greats he is too caught up in to run his own kingdom so Navani does it for him with him treating her as a machine. it gets to the point where she prays for his death. the assassination seems to be an answer to that prayer and she feels shameful about it, knowing that her last conversation with him was an argument, and didn't even believe he was dead until it sunk in, Gavilar seemed to have this charisma to him that made him seem eternal as he proclaimed, but of course that is never true: fate and gods care not for the grand plans of men. it ends on Navani reflecting that Gavilar left this world the same way he lived it: with ridiculous drama while Navani picked up the pieces.

I like this, Navani was a minor character to me, but apparently she is important. Sanderson if the pattern holds, gives these kinds of flashbacks to the focus character of the book, so Navani being that character says a lot. she has been a bit in the background of all the other characters so this will be interesting.

Man Kaladin.....you broken. your experiencing trauma. and there are no therapists in this world.

Navani invented flying boats! cool.

Shallan is.....doing relatively well but is just.....in the doldrums so to speak.

Dalinar has kicked Kaladin upstairs because of the battle fatigue. oh. oooooh nooo. a "promotion" that leaves him feeling useless.

Venli is trying to gather people to object against the two bad options of human tyranny and singer tyranny. its not going well. she has like, one follower and they're so Alethkarized.

yeah, Kaladin's depression has only gotten worse. on the other hand good news: the Fused have this strange sense of honor the Windrunners are exploiting to make sure Windrunners don't die. Dalinar is not happy about this since they need to be using all their strength to win, but it doesn't matter how hard they fight if the Fused are just going to reincarnate anyways.

all this while Navani's notes on how fabrials work are at the top of each chapter. basically they work by luring and capturing spren in gems then using them for stuff. apparently according to someone contacting her on spanreed, Navani has been causing more pain than anyone alive with her inventions somehow. she responds back that the spren used in fabrials are basically like oxes or the like- not sapient, they just magical beasts of burden, not even sapient spren find much of a problem with using them like this. but the mysterious sender isn't satisfied with that and basically thinks she is evil. interesting.

speaking of secrets, Shallan talks with Mraize and while I don't think Shallan entirely understands, Mraize basically says that the ghostbloods purpose is to basically start a stormlight trading/smuggling ring to other worlds in the Cosmere, spinning the other worlds as being realms in Shadesmar which I'm not sure is entirely true. but he basically dangles the reward of answers about a lot of things if she can find a guy in Shadesmar, Lasting Integrity, a placeof Honorpsren whom is important to the Ghostbloods plan.

meanwhile Kaladin seeks out Zahel wanting someone honest. Zahel basically gives him a duel and says that Kaladin can't be Ardent because he enjoys battle too much, then delves into this explanation about Invested entities. basically there is two types so far:
Type One Invested Entity: power that has become alive on its own (Spren like Syl)
Type Two Invested Entity: power that has been imprinted by a soul and thus form a leftover imprint of that person- a spren that is basically a copy of a dead human and put into a corpse.
Zahel explains that he is a type two: the real guy died a long time ago, he is just this spren-like being imitating him, and that the longer he lives the more like a spren he becomes, focused on purpose and such. immortality, but not for the original guy. He explains that the Fused are also Type 2 Invested, not really being the original people just imprints that are born and reborn again. and that one can theoretically mess with them in ways like draining them of power or the like.

they recovered this herdazian general called the Mink, supposedly with his tactics killed tens of thousands of singers without having any great armies or power of other nations. a military genius, and probably has been using hit and run tactics- thats the only way I could see him holding out against a greater force like that. he advises against retaking Althekar and instead go for Emul where the singers are more vulnerable.

Kaladin of course now that his family is safe and his retirement been forced upon him, starts his training in being a surgeon with his father again. his father at first thinks he is useless with edgedancers around, but Kaladin says that isn't true since there is only 50 edgedancers and 3 truthwatchers, surgeons are actually pretty needed and the hospitals are full as it is. the radiants while returned are not in big enough numbers to do everything and are needed on the battlefield.

of course they suspect Taravangian of working with the enemy, but he doesn't act as they suspect, supporting their move into Emul rather than going against it.

while Sigzil, the new highmarshal of the windrunners recommends sending envoys to Lasting Integrity to get the honorspren to cooperate, as they don't have enough windrunners to face the growing number of Fused. he sues the analogy of a nation they wronged generations back and need to apologize to. The Honorpsren hate the Windrunners and think of the ones in existence as being flagrant rulebreakers, so they particularly hate Kaladin- basically it'd be diplomatically stupid to send a Windrunner as an envoy. So instead they think over and send Shallan and Adolin instead. shallan makes sense but Adolin with his shardblade seems....an odd choice. but he is the highprince so...whatever.

finally Navani and Dalinar worry over what Taravangian is planning and discuss how his mind thinks: Navani thinks he is after the usual motivations of greed/vengeance/ambition, but Dalinar knows him better and basically says he is a utilitarian wanting to do greatest good for the great number no matter how many sacrifices need to be made for it, that he thinks of himself as trying to save all of humanity. at the same time, Dalinar knows that the arena of manipulation is where he is weak while Taravangian is a far more clever foe than Sadeas.

Overall, great start for this book! I look forward to reading more.

[gmoyes]

Funnily enough, I'm in the exact same boat at you. Even read up to the same point as you.

Spoiler

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I quite like Navani's point of view, having an engineer in a world of magic is fascinating to see at work. Physics don't stop working, they just take different shortcuts.

It is great to see how mental disorders are being portrayed, between Kaladin's depression and Shallan's multiple personalities. And while they are major parts of their characters, they are much more than that.

I read the first three Stormlight Archives before reading Warbreaker recently which give Zahel's words and abilities in a much better context.

By the looks of it, Taravangian will cause even more chaos. Always be careful about those ends justify the means type.

[thethird]

There will of course be tons of spoilers so.....you haven't read the other books? probably should read, but then again with this series there is so much going on I doubt you'd have much context for all this anyways.

Have you read the other Cosmere books? There are more than a few scenes which make more sense having read those.

Spoiler: Prologue-Part 1

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meanwhile Kaladin seeks out Zahel wanting someone honest. Zahel basically gives him a duel and says that Kaladin can't be Ardent because he enjoys battle too much, then delves into this explanation about Invested entities. basically there is two types so far:
Type One Invested Entity: power that has become alive on its own (Spren like Syl)
Type Two Invested Entity: power that has been imprinted by a soul and thus form a leftover imprint of that person- a spren that is basically a copy of a dead human and put into a corpse.
Zahel explains that he is a type two: the real guy died a long time ago, he is just this spren-like being imitating him, and that the longer he lives the more like a spren he becomes, focused on purpose and such. immortality, but not for the original guy. He explains that the Fused are also Type 2 Invested, not really being the original people just imprints that are born and reborn again. and that one can theoretically mess with them in ways like draining them of power or the like.

Zahel (and Mraize's) explanations are specially significant for the way they describe things, they use "cosmere aware language".

Spoiler: Warbreaker

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If you haven't read Warbreaker turn back.

Spoiler

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Zahel is using biochtomatic animation to fight.

Spoiler

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When Vasher described invested entities returned were Type 1. The explanation here feels like a callback to that conversation. But Nightblood already existed, so if he had been to Roshar (and it's likely given Nightblood's similarities to shardblades) he was omitting information on his explanation.

[GrayDeath]

Sadly, my copy ahs not yet arrived.

Once I ahve read it, this thread will be interesting reading though, I always like bouncing back ideas with others when reading sanderson, who is in my opinion a fantastic world builder.

[Seerow]

I do want to make one note because there was a misconception in the OP that may cause some confusion or disappointment later in the book.

Spoiler

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The prologue does not indicate who the flashback character is. The prologue is always another perspective on the night of Gavilar's death. So far we have seen:

Book 1 - Szeth
Book 2 - Jasnah
Book 3 - Eshonai
Book 4 - Navani

None of which line up with the flashback character of the book (books 1-3 being Kaladin, Shallan, and Dalinar respectively). Navani has her part to play in this book for sure, but she is not the Flashback/focus character of the book.

Spoiler: Click if you want to know who the focus character will be

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This book's flashbacks are Venli/Eshonai

[Lord Raziere]

@ thethird: man I've read Elantris, Warbreaker, the Mistborn Trilogy, Wax and Wayne trilogy, and Arcanum Unbounded you think I'd be reading Stormlight if I HAVEN'T already had wider knowledge? come on.

ah yes, bits of worldbuilding to comment on:

Spoiler

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apparently the gems for artifabrians are affected by aluminum. This is no surprise as aluminum is an anti-magic tool throughout the Cosmere, while on Scadrial its used as an anti-mistborn weapon, here it can be used as some thing to make complex stuff happen with the gemstones, it probably has some electricity analogue that I don't know but its pretty clever. the fuse use aluminun to withstand shardblades and interfere with radiant powers

while there is another metal that can conduct radiant power. these two can have all sorts of implications.

also various metals have other effects on the gem:
-pewter makes the spren express its attribute in force.
-bronze serves a warning
-zinc strengthens the manifestation
-brass weakens the manifestation

in keeping with cosmere interconnectedness, these are all metals that are also found on Scadrial and are consistent with abilities that Mistborn use. either Scadrial and Roshar have some special connection, or things like Biochroma and the Aon Dor have yet to discover the true potential of these metals for their systems. I wonder if a gold cage would allow for healing properties? but then again that isn't much needed in Roshar with stormlight going around healing people.

Spoiler: Interludes1-Part 2, chapter 22

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Syl's interlude is basically her being worried about Kaladin and calling his depression "the dark brain" while she names her sides "child brain" and "responsible brain". the first term for psychological illness on Roshar and its from a flighty spren. yeah thats par for the course. she wants Stormfather or Dalinar to strengthen their bond somehow so she can understand aladin better but Dalinar says to just keep being understanding and that he can't do anything about that. Syl recalls a time when she had "dark brain" and thus will try to help using her own experiences.

Sja-anats interlude:
Sja-Anat is interesting. she is a being of secrets with her own goals and agency, and she has her secrets and spren. she is a mother, but not....in the usual way. she has these lines about "protect some children, sacrifice others" while regretting the fact they had to be sacrificed as distractions to Odium. she and Odium play at a game of manipulation and lies because Sja-Anat is not on Odium's side and is scheming to become a deity herself. other pieces of information that are interesting is that Nergaoul is the Thrill- apparently Dalinar was under the thrall of one of the Unmade the whole time he had that. also while Odium the man doesn't like being questioned, Odium the power does, as its passion and argument and such. Odium does not entirely align with his own shards power. alos the Sibling is a child of Honor and Cultivation. also Mraize might be getting a voidspren....

Taravangian:
okay so basically Taravangian and his organization did all this to save Kharbranth, technically succeeded and is now to going to sacrifice himself and get killed by the Radiants because his Diagram is useless and allow Odium to win while all the people he worked with can escape while he acts a lightning rod. fan-freaking tastic, except for the part where all this is revealed in an interlude. this is NOT going to go according to plan, as it has been said straight out instead of revealed later. I have a feeling that Cultivation ain't done with him. she sees just as far as Odium does, after all. Dalinar was manipulated by Odium once but he bounced back, after all. her gifts aren't what they seem after all....

Part 2:
Shallan agonizes over who to take as a spy, but figures to keep enemies close. I keep seeing signs of the three getting closer and closer together in personality and actions- they are slowly starting to mend themselves into one, even if they don't realize it. its good to know that other Lightweavers just really like acting and get to into character though. Shallan's malfunction is just her.

Kaladin didn't know that the women were all coming to see him at the clinic, it took Adolin to point out that he is Roshar's most eligible bachelor and how strange it is that all the patients are lighteyed women with headaches. but he is getting better not fighting and being around his family taking care of people- its not a solution but its helping.

I'm oddly uncomfortable with how Dalinar is portrayed being overbearing here with Adolin? It makes sense, but it feels as if he should be less this after his character development but I get it that he has a ways to go, it just feels jarring for some reason. maybe we just haven't been seeing enough of Dalinar from Adolin's perspective.

Beryl is so the spy. she made sure Stargyle's wife fell ill with some poison or something.

they go into shadesmar, Adolin of course taking along Maya his shardblade, the spren of this realm thinking she can't understand anyone.

[gmoyes]

you think I'd be reading Stormlight if I HAVEN'T already had wider knowledge? come on.

Heh heh, guilty. Been working on catching up.

I finished part 2 earlier, and with Raziere only mention stuff from the first part, so I'll just mention stuff in that part.

Spoiler: First half

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I was laughing at Adolin's 'You can never have too many swords' speech. The youtube creator Shadiverisity is an official reference for Brandon Sanderson and the entire speech sounded exactly like something Shad would say. Still I'm interested in seeing Adolin come into his own.

[thethird]

@ thethird: man I've read Elantris, Warbreaker, the Mistborn Trilogy, Wax and Wayne trilogy, and Arcanum Unbounded you think I'd be reading Stormlight if I HAVEN'T already had wider knowledge? come on.

*Shrugs* just wanted to avoid possible spoilers. Although Warbreaker is pretty fundamental for this. I can't remember if sixth of the sun is in arcanum unbounded (I think so). And there is a part of whitesand the graphic novel.

ah yes, bits of worldbuilding to comment on:

Spoiler

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apparently the gems for artifabrians are affected by aluminum. This is no surprise as aluminum is an anti-magic tool throughout the Cosmere, while on Scadrial its used as an anti-mistborn weapon, here it can be used as some thing to make complex stuff happen with the gemstones, it probably has some electricity analogue that I don't know but its pretty clever. the fuse use aluminun to withstand shardblades and interfere with radiant powers

while there is another metal that can conduct radiant power. these two can have all sorts of implications.

also various metals have other effects on the gem:
-pewter makes the spren express its attribute in force.
-bronze serves a warning
-zinc strengthens the manifestation
-brass weakens the manifestation

in keeping with cosmere interconnectedness, these are all metals that are also found on Scadrial and are consistent with abilities that Mistborn use. either Scadrial and Roshar have some special connection, or things like Biochroma and the Aon Dor have yet to discover the true potential of these metals for their systems. I wonder if a gold cage would allow for healing properties? but then again that isn't much needed in Roshar with stormlight going around healing people.

To me this is like helping you to understand the implications of the wide magic system which is pretty cool.

Spoiler

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We have seen biochtomatic use of metal specifically in Nightblood, also note that it's scabbard is aluminum. For what is worth Nightblood was made of steel before being awakened. Biochtoma at large thought deals with interfacing with living stuff (which metal is not).

Aon Dor wise we haven't seen any particular use of metal. If anyone used metal it would probably be in the emperor's soul, but if memory serves there is nothing.

One interesting thing here (to me) is silver. Silver is also inert (although aluminum might be a bit more than silver) and rarely if ever appears. But silver has some other properties when dealing with cognitive shadows.

Spoiler: Interludes1-Part 2, chapter 22

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Syl's interlude is basically her being worried about Kaladin and calling his depression "the dark brain" while she names her sides "child brain" and "responsible brain". the first term for psychological illness on Roshar and its from a flighty spren. yeah thats par for the course. she wants Stormfather or Dalinar to strengthen their bond somehow so she can understand aladin better but Dalinar says to just keep being understanding and that he can't do anything about that. Syl recalls a time when she had "dark brain" and thus will try to help using her own experiences.

Sja-anats interlude:
Sja-Anat is interesting. she is a being of secrets with her own goals and agency, and she has her secrets and spren. she is a mother, but not....in the usual way. she has these lines about "protect some children, sacrifice others" while regretting the fact they had to be sacrificed as distractions to Odium. she and Odium play at a game of manipulation and lies because Sja-Anat is not on Odium's side and is scheming to become a deity herself. other pieces of information that are interesting is that Nergaoul is the Thrill- apparently Dalinar was under the thrall of one of the Unmade the whole time he had that. also while Odium the man doesn't like being questioned, Odium the power does, as its passion and argument and such. Odium does not entirely align with his own shards power. alos the Sibling is a child of Honor and Cultivation. also Mraize might be getting a voidspren....

Taravangian:
okay so basically Taravangian and his organization did all this to save Kharbranth, technically succeeded and is now to going to sacrifice himself and get killed by the Radiants because his Diagram is useless and allow Odium to win while all the people he worked with can escape while he acts a lightning rod. fan-freaking tastic, except for the part where all this is revealed in an interlude. this is NOT going to go according to plan, as it has been said straight out instead of revealed later. I have a feeling that Cultivation ain't done with him. she sees just as far as Odium does, after all. Dalinar was manipulated by Odium once but he bounced back, after all. her gifts aren't what they seem after all....

Part 2:
Shallan agonizes over who to take as a spy, but figures to keep enemies close. I keep seeing signs of the three getting closer and closer together in personality and actions- they are slowly starting to mend themselves into one, even if they don't realize it. its good to know that other Lightweavers just really like acting and get to into character though. Shallan's malfunction is just her.

Kaladin didn't know that the women were all coming to see him at the clinic, it took Adolin to point out that he is Roshar's most eligible bachelor and how strange it is that all the patients are lighteyed women with headaches. but he is getting better not fighting and being around his family taking care of people- its not a solution but its helping.

I'm oddly uncomfortable with how Dalinar is portrayed being overbearing here with Adolin? It makes sense, but it feels as if he should be less this after his character development but I get it that he has a ways to go, it just feels jarring for some reason. maybe we just haven't been seeing enough of Dalinar from Adolin's perspective.

Beryl is so the spy. she made sure Stargyle's wife fell ill with some poison or something.

they go into shadesmar, Adolin of course taking along Maya his shardblade, the spren of this realm thinking she can't understand anyone.

Spoiler: interludes

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I really like both Sja Anat and Taravangian.

Sja Anat power set is very interesting the whole "corruption" of spren. It changes them into being also beings of odium. Look at my man Renarin with his ability to see the future. That's odium stuff, and other truthwatchers don't seem to be able to do it. As Zahel put it before spren are sentient investiture, they are a very small piece of a shard, they don't change. Then comes Sja Anat and says "oh little spren have some change, become more." Can she do that to other beings? Can she change one of the seons too?

Taravangian for his part... Is a man who made an accurate prediction of the future without being able to see the future in a non deterministic world where future seeing is a thing that exist. That in itself is amazing. Also RAFO.

Spoiler: Adolin

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Adolin cares, he looks like a jock, acts like a chad. He is taking care of Kaladin, Shallan, Maya, without being intrusive nor feeling out of place. He is a good person. I really really like his character interactions, while he is constrained by expectations he is nice, I like to read him. The whole Maya relationship is the cutest.

[Lord Raziere]

Sixth of the Dusk is indeed in Arcanum Unbounded. honestly I should read it again sometimes, barely remember what that story was about aside from being some guy who works with birds or something.

Spoiler: Adolin

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Yeah the guy has always been the realistic soldier dude compared to Kaladin's anime spearman superhero. and yeah, the fact that he had so many weapons really sounded Shadiversity, I do admit so I'm not surprised that a bit like that was put in. and it works, because Adolin is exactly the type to be both fussy over what he hears and what he fights with.

Spoiler: Chapter 22-End of Part 2

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Adolin decided to stand trial, interesting choice, but I guess its the only one he has. heh, now I'm imagining Honorspren versions of Phoenix Wright and Miles Edgeworth taking the case.

Teft leaving to help Kaladin, and Kaladin advancing the cause of mental health is like, the best thing. like if he gets this off the ground, this could be immensely helpful to a lot of radiants. also its a good reminder that medieval mental health isn't good at all.

Shallan figures that it might be Beryl, but it actually turned out to be....Pattern himself *dun dun DUUUUUN* of course, this only makes Shallan retreat deeper into herself, unable to trust anyone. and after Adolin had shown her the starpsren and showed that he cared to.

Navani finds out that the one delivering the spanreed messages was.....the Sibling! just in time for Raboniel to start screwing everything up: all the radiants in Urithiru drop unconscious except Kaladin. the Sibling is being corrupted but Navani does everything she can and prevents it, shielding it from further change, but Urithiru has been occupied. Raboniel offers to make Navani an engineer and Navani I suspect, will be taking that deal if only to learn more.

meanwhile Kaladin unable to help, tries to keep ahead of the singers so he doesn't get captured, knowing he is the most important person among the radiants here, seen as a hero. problem is, Teft was going to be taken and he could forsake his oaths to protect others, so he stepped in and killed someone in his father's clinic, Lirin is of course furious and calls Kaladin a monster. Kaladin just escapes, sad and silent.

yeah, this is all looking pretty bad. all the while Dalinar is off doing some offscreen battle with Szeth and the others. they feel like they're going to be important cavalry later. and yeah, I don't think this situation can lost long, if the wars over they're done, Odium wins. so Urithiru needs to be retaken within the book or this series is going to go in a way different direction than I thought.

also there have been notes about Odium from Sazed/Harmony, nice to hear from him again. says Odium is a threat to all shards that the power is controlling things now, and that he needs a champion of ruin and preservation, to do things for him *looks at Kaladin* looks its either Kal or we're getting a powered up Wax coming in to help, and Kaladin with his soldier/surgeon dynamic fits just as well and no one said that Kaladin couldn't be empowered by another Shard. and while Wax would be cool to see, I don't know if he would care about Roshar's problems. he is a local detective guy, not a save the world type. he's just, but he isn't.....larger than life. and Harmony granting Kaladin something like Mistborn powers to help would be an edge in his favor, and Wax would have that investiture problem.
also Sazed mentions Threnody and how disturbing that was. ah yes, from reading the information from Arcanum Unbounded, its a place where investiture ghosts rise and people flee from some great Evil that has take over an entire continent, and is where Ambition was shattered by Odium. not a happy place.

so yeah, I'll just have to see where this goes next.

[Seerow]

Spoiler: Through End of Part 2 and other Cosmere

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also there have been notes about Odium from Sazed/Harmony, nice to hear from him again. says Odium is a threat to all shards that the power is controlling things now, and that he needs a champion of ruin and preservation, to do things for him *looks at Kaladin* looks its either Kal or we're getting a powered up Wax coming in to help, and Kaladin with his soldier/surgeon dynamic fits just as well and no one said that Kaladin couldn't be empowered by another Shard. and while Wax would be cool to see, I don't know if he would care about Roshar's problems. he is a local detective guy, not a save the world type. he's just, but he isn't.....larger than life. and Harmony granting Kaladin something like Mistborn powers to help would be an edge in his favor, and Wax would have that investiture problem.

So interesting thing here is that Stormlight 1-5 actually take place before Era 2 Mistborn (we know canonically that Era 2 takes place in the time skip between SLA5 and SLA6), so it is very likely that Wax is Harmony's first attempt at creating a Champion. For the reasons you stated, among others, I agree Wax isn't likely to be a good long term solution, but rather a beta version for whatever shenanigans Harmony gets up to during Era 3.

While I would like to see a Harmony empowered Kaladin, I think there are limitations on Connection there, namely that Harmony doesn't really have any to Kaladin. Also if Kaladin would be interested in championing a shard who was born on and is invested/limited to a world he's never seen or heard of (though I think if he was told he'd be able to protect more people that way he'd probably be in). Most importantly, for meta narrative reasons, I don't expect Harmony to be the cavalry to save the day, or Kaladin to have an ending outside of Roshar. Brandon has insisted that despite the crossovers, he expects Stormlight to be able to be read as a standalone, and I feel like that fundamentally conflicts with Kaladin's ending being a servant to anyone other than Honor/Cultivation/Odium.

[gmoyes]

Spoiler: Rest of Act 2

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I was expecting Adolin to play to his greatest strength and try an honorable duel to win respect, but I guess standing for trial is also quite honorable, especially after defending the exile.

While I can believe Pattern leaking information to the Ghostbloods, the big question I have is if he is the mole, how could he kill Lady Sadias? I though Spren wouldn't be physical enough to pull something like that off. So I don't believe Pattern to be the spy, he lies too poorly and his lie to Shallan could be due to reasons other than the Ghostbloods. Though I'm wondering, how much of a danger are the Ghostbloods? The seem to just want to smuggle Stormlight, but they seem to be too sinister for that to be their only motivation.

The pacifist/protector clash between Kaladin and his father is quite interesting. Because while Kaladin has suffered greatly for his ideology, his father has had it easy and hasn't really been punished for his. I hope they can reconcile, perhaps with Lirin learning of how much suffering compliance can cause.

Sibling is interesting, almost acting like a fantasy version of a home base AI. I might also be thinking that because I recently read Girl Genius. Hopefully Sibling turns out to be more benevolent.

[thethird]

Spoiler: Harmony

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also there have been notes about Odium from Sazed/Harmony, nice to hear from him again. says Odium is a threat to all shards that the power is controlling things now, and that he needs a champion of ruin and preservation, to do things for him *looks at Kaladin* looks its either Kal or we're getting a powered up Wax coming in to help, and Kaladin with his soldier/surgeon dynamic fits just as well and no one said that Kaladin couldn't be empowered by another Shard. and while Wax would be cool to see, I don't know if he would care about Roshar's problems. he is a local detective guy, not a save the world type. he's just, but he isn't.....larger than life. and Harmony granting Kaladin something like Mistborn powers to help would be an edge in his favor, and Wax would have that investiture problem.
also Sazed mentions Threnody and how disturbing that was. ah yes, from reading the information from Arcanum Unbounded, its a place where investiture ghosts rise and people flee from some great Evil that has take over an entire continent, and is where Ambition was shattered by Odium. not a happy place.

Spoiler: Timeline

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So interesting thing here is that Stormlight 1-5 actually take place before Era 2 Mistborn (we know canonically that Era 2 takes place in the time skip between SLA5 and SLA6), so it is very likely that Wax is Harmony's first attempt at creating a Champion. For the reasons you stated, among others, I agree Wax isn't likely to be a good long term solution, but rather a beta version for whatever shenanigans Harmony gets up to during Era 3.

While I would like to see a Harmony empowered Kaladin, I think there are limitations on Connection there, namely that Harmony doesn't really have any to Kaladin. Also if Kaladin would be interested in championing a shard who was born on and is invested/limited to a world he's never seen or heard of (though I think if he was told he'd be able to protect more people that way he'd probably be in). Most importantly, for meta narrative reasons, I don't expect Harmony to be the cavalry to save the day, or Kaladin to have an ending outside of Roshar. Brandon has insisted that despite the crossovers, he expects Stormlight to be able to be read as a standalone, and I feel like that fundamentally conflicts with Kaladin's ending being a servant to anyone other than Honor/Cultivation/Odium.

Do you have a source on that Timeline?

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What I could found was https://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=708#7

Note that Alloy of Law after Way of Kings, the other novels are probably happening more or less at the same time.

For what is worth I honestly don't want Harmony investing Kaladin, Harmony might be invested in the conflict at large but he has not invested at any point in Kaladin (pun intended). While doable, we have seen a lot more character development/interaction between Harmony/Wax than Harmony/Kaladin and that might feel like a cope out. Also, while radiants seem to be made, mistling are born.

I don't see Harmony's champion going to Roshar yet. He has a lot of work to do in Scadrial, that place isn't very stable, with the whole south going full gun ho on their magic revolution and revering "the wrong guy" (i.e. not Harmony)

[Seerow]

Do you have a source on that Timeline?

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What I could found was https://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=708#7

Note that Alloy of Law after Way of Kings, the other novels are probably happening more or less at the same time.

For what is worth I honestly don't want Harmony investing Kaladin, Harmony might be invested in the conflict at large but he has not invested at any point in Kaladin (pun intended). While doable, we have seen a lot more character development/interaction between Harmony/Wax than Harmony/Kaladin and that might feel like a cope out. Also, while radiants seem to be made, mistling are born.

I don't see Harmony's champion going to Roshar yet. He has a lot of work to do in Scadrial, that place isn't very stable, with the whole south going full gun ho on their magic revolution and revering "the wrong guy" (i.e. not Harmony)

Spoiler: Timeline

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I think that WoB is from like 2014.

Here's one from 2017:
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/26...signing/#e8747

...So, Bands of Mourning, all the Wax & Wayne books take place after Stormlight 5, but I'm not sure if it happens after or before Stormlight 6, It'll have to wait, because there's a time jump between Stormlight 5 and 6 that I haven't exactly defined in the timeline yet.

Edit: Removed second WoB I had linked because it is referring to writing order rather than timeline order like I had thought. The one above at least sets Alloy of Law as after Stormlight 5, rather than running parallel to it.

[Lord Raziere]

Huh...never knew that timeline stuff. its rare, how Sanderson doesn't set this all happening at once and instead has a timeline of when it happens. thats planning there.

Spoiler: Second Interludes-Act 3

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Vyre:
Okaaaaaay Moash has gone full creepy and crazy. all his positive emotions have been sucked away except for his focus on Kaladin. and he is now a complete servant of Odium. now I'm understanding how people can work for this Shard: he is basically putting people into an artificial eternal happiness as long as they serve him. Vyre right now is the exact opposite of what Kaladin is doing: he is basically not facing his issues at all but using Odium as a kind of drug to ignore all his negative stuff so he can feel good about his choices. that is not healthy in the least. I like this however, its a better, wider depiction of how letting emotions rule you can be bad than just the usual Sith copy-paste reasons. turns out living in constant positivity to ignore the problems in your life is a bad thing.

Lift:
Lift as usual is a....person that exists. she complains that people shouldn't be fond of stealing things and that she is changing when she asked not to change, crawls around various tunnels in Urithiru then gets chased by Mraize/guy with the parrot. okay. not sure what this has to do with anything or why green parrot guy is chasing her, but okay. also apparently Lift can do something with stormlight and the food she eats. weird. wait.....she didn't get knocked out. huh. Cultivation's foresight strikes again.

Taravangian:
In which "Dumb" Taravangian more accurately called "Emotional Intelligence Taravangian" figures out that Odium is just as human as anyone else, that Renarin somehow blocks out the future and somehow Odium fears Nightblood. and thus that there is still hope. Cultivation you clever goddess. she set it up so that Taravangian would have emotional intelligence on this day to let everyone know at some point.

Part 3:
New notes, another in series book! Rhythm of War. who is writing this I wonder? might be a singer but....

Kaladin is on the run, evades pursuit with Teft in tow, goes to sleep, has a nightmare thats clearly the manipulation Moash/Vyre is sending him. wakes up, realizes that he is being a fool that since Teft is a in a coma he needs to take care of him somehow and that somewhere among the streets without a proper bed ain't the way.

there are flashbacks with Eshonai and Venli about how humans are discovered and society reacts.

a rare Dalinar chapter during battle. Dalinar feel as if he is missing something fromt he enemies plan, he knows something is wrong but not what. where Nale confronts him. I like the part where Nale begins to make his villainous speech and gets hit with an arrow from a nearby windrunner, interrupting whatever he was going to say. then Dalinar touches Nale and sees his past. there is a lot here and its really fragmented, but it seems
-Nale truly believed laws could be used to help people at some point
-he fought against Jezereziah at some point
-Jezereziah came to him believing he himself was the villain and that Nale was right.
-I think the flashes are in reverse order: we see Nale discarding his blade first then going backwards from there.

also Daliner can now see the bonds uniting the Oathpact and wonders if he can do something with it to fix things. who knows?

Navani is speaking to Sibling on how to get out this mess. Sibling feels as if they are doomed. also confirmation from Sibling that Kaladin is close to the Fourth Ideal. I bet its about accepting loss.

Dalinar: "what is a cow?"
Wit: "big, juicy delicious, Wish I could still eat them. you don't seem to have them around here, which I find amazing as I'm sure there was one somewhere in Sadea's lineage"-this line made me crack up and laugh for a minute. honestly legit laugh. Wit, your awesome. never change. it just came out of nowhere and I laughed so hard. heh. Sadeas was part cow.

Navani tries to mix the various forms of light.....its not successful.

Anyways, long story short, Kaladin fails, turns out Navani has been spied upon this whole time, so....Raboniel has been one step ahead of her. Sibling is corrupted, Kaladin is.....probably still alive somewhere because Dalinar-storm saved him somehow, Dalinar is of course urging Stormfather to be more than a storm, and is now going to find a Herald Bondsmith to try and learn from.

Navani is left knowing she failed.

and throughout this entire part we haven't heard anything from Adolin or Shallan. so. I feel we're going to be catching up to them at some point. there is a chekov's gun here somewhere....

[thethird]

Spoiler: Timeline

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I think that WoB is from like 2014.

Here's one from 2017:
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/26...signing/#e8747


Edit: Removed second WoB I had linked because it is referring to writing order rather than timeline order like I had thought. The one above at least sets Alloy of Law as after Stormlight 5, rather than running parallel to it.

Thanks, I kind of expected it to be concurrent. Well secret history clearly happens earlier, have you read secret history Razade? (Just checking it's probably in arcanum unbounded)

Spoiler: Second Interludes

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Lift:
Lift as usual is a....person that exists. she complains that people shouldn't be fond of stealing things and that she is changing when she asked not to change, crawls around various tunnels in Urithiru then gets chased by Mraize/guy with the parrot. okay. not sure what this has to do with anything or why green parrot guy is chasing her, but okay. also apparently Lift can do something with stormlight and the food she eats. weird. wait.....she didn't get knocked out. huh. Cultivation's foresight strikes again.

Taravangian:
In which "Dumb" Taravangian more accurately called "Emotional Intelligence Taravangian" figures out that Odium is just as human as anyone else, that Renarin somehow blocks out the future and somehow Odium fears Nightblood. and thus that there is still hope. Cultivation you clever goddess. she set it up so that Taravangian would have emotional intelligence on this day to let everyone know at some point.

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Birds, like cows, are not native to Roshar. Lift knows what a chicken is, they are originally from Shinovar. Bets are that those colorful "chicken" are from sixth of the dusk.

Remember how in Mistborn if two people are seeing the future at the same time they see a lot of potential actions that the other might take and sort of cancelled each other? Yeah, Renarin can see the future (which again is Odium stuff, Sja Anat strikes again).

I personally like how emotional Taravangian has been undervalued up to this point by the narration because smart Taravangian totally understimated him.

Who wouldn't be afraid of Nightblood?

[DeTess]

So, I'm almost done with the book. and just need to vent on a little thing(in a good way).

Spoiler: spoilers for chapter 113

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TARAVANGIAN, YOU MAGNIFICENT BASTARD!!!!!!!!!!

More coherent thoughts to follow later.


Edit:

Spoiler: 115

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KELSIER, YOU MAGNIFICENT BASTARD!!!!!

[Lord Raziere]

Back to this....

Spoiler: Third Interludes-Part 4

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Szeth:
a little passage about Szeth. He is uncomfortable around a child, thinking he is too broken to be near one. Szeth himself is pained by Dlainr's insecurities, seeing as his code is all about following him and his morality this makes sense. oh and then Taravangian's messages comes asking for what is basically an Oathstone but worded so that no one but Szeth realizes what it is and he realizes that he must protect Dalinar from Taravangian trying to kill him.....and completely fails to let Dalinar know what Taravangian is asking about and thus prevent the request from being fulfilled in the first place. Y'know Szeth just saying "he wants an oathstone, an object that will make a Truthless obey him and he could use that to break out and kill you, don't grant that one" would be fine...

Chiri-Chiri:
AAAAAAAAAAAAAW, Chiri-chiri so cute! and aw, she learned her first words! Cutest cremling, she just want scritches. Rysn the merchant apprentice (remember her from like, the last book?) is the first to hear her, and is surprised. now Rysn, taking care of the first talking Cremling is a big responsibility......

Taravangian:
Taravangain thinks that Dalinar needs to use Nightblood and go into Odium's visions to kill Odium. he tries to get Szeth to convince Dalinar, but Szeth refuses.

next we have an interest picture segment where Koravelliumavast and Rayse is mentioned in old glyphs. Rayse is the shard of Odium just so I know.

the weirdest thing about Wit's story to Kaladin to me is not the fact they're on Braize or that its all a dream, or the Design is probably irrational number or that Wit can make images out of nothing.....no those are normal and expected, the weirdest part somehow is that Dragons exist in the Cosmere. for some reason that what I find the most strange about this. I didn't expect them to, and some level I thought they would never exist? but apparently they do.

also we got chapters from Rlains and Dabbids perspectives. they were nice.

Lasting Integrity is.....weird. storming spren, not everyone is used to gravity being their servant!

the Venli and Eshonai past chapters.....are there? I guess? I hope this leads to something. oh right, turns out Nale arranged the assassination on Gavilar after Venli tricked him. I guess thats a revelation?

Shallan overcomes her own lies becomes strong enough to not kill Kelek! Yay! (you DO deserve to be loved Shallan you lovable snarky bookworm oddball! come on....)

Adolin witnessed Maya finally speaking up and saying "WE CHOSE". good moment. the Spren were doing this with open eyes. Not actually that surprising but....good twist nonetheless. yay!

but then there is Navani using math to figure out the Anti-Voidlight. but then it all being for the worse when it is turned around to make Anti-stormlight to kill bonded spren permanently. ANTI-YAY!

[Seerow]

Spoiler: Responses to Raziere

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Chiri-Chiri:
AAAAAAAAAAAAAW, Chiri-chiri so cute! and aw, she learned her first words! Cutest cremling, she just want scritches. Rysn the merchant apprentice (remember her from like, the last book?) is the first to hear her, and is surprised. now Rysn, taking care of the first talking Cremling is a big responsibility......

Out of curiosity have you read Dawnshard yet? If not you should really check that out.

the weirdest thing about Wit's story to Kaladin to me is not the fact they're on Braize or that its all a dream, or the Design is probably irrational number or that Wit can make images out of nothing.....no those are normal and expected, the weirdest part somehow is that Dragons exist in the Cosmere. for some reason that what I find the most strange about this. I didn't expect them to, and some level I thought they would never exist? but apparently they do.

Brandon has always said Dragons were the one major fantasy trope he would include in the cosmere. He's a huge fan of them. Also one of the epigraph letters from an earlier Stormlight book was from a dragon, though I'm not sure if that was made explicit in the text.

the Venli and Eshonai past chapters.....are there? I guess? I hope this leads to something. oh right, turns out Nale arranged the assassination on Gavilar after Venli tricked him. I guess thats a revelation?

This was really my feeling on most of the Venli/Eshonai chapters. There are some nice things still to come, but overall I feel like Brandon put them in because he always has a Flashback arc. In his original outline, we didn't get any of the Eshonai viewpoints in Words of Radiance, I suspect us having gotten those (which made WoR a much better book) has in turn made this flashback sequence weaker because most of it is expounding on things we already knew.

Adolin witnessed Maya finally speaking up and saying "WE CHOSE". good moment. the Spren were doing this with open eyes. Not actually that surprising but....good twist nonetheless. yay!

This was one of the highlights of the book to me. "WE. CHOSE." and "YOU CANNOT HAVE OUR SACRIFICE" and the rest of that scene is one of the segments that had me irl crying. I also enjoyed how it echoed Dalinar's "You cannot have my pain" moment from OB.

but then there is Navani using math to figure out the Anti-Voidlight. but then it all being for the worse when it is turned around to make Anti-stormlight to kill bonded spren permanently. ANTI-YAY!

I mean while it is sad to see a spren die.... the humans and singers involved in this war have always risked permanent death. The Spren and Fused do not, and since they're the main drivers behind the war, they just keep going on forever causing the mortals involved to suffer indefinitely. Raboniel is on the right track here. While I don't think her desire to completely wipe out the other side's immortal super-power-granting support is a good idea, giving the actual forces driving the war stakes in the game also provides them a reason to negotiate.

[Lord Raziere]

Spoiler: @ Seerow:

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I have not read Dawnshard! didn't know it existed. I should do so.

yeah, "WE CHOSE" is just such a powerful moment. and somehow, its both unexpected yet unsurprising, because with the Radiants we see today, we see how close the relationship is between spren and radiant, they're partners, so it makes perfect sense that the spren of the Recreance willingly chose to sacrifice themselves. at the same time...its unexpected because somehow I never thought we were going to know what happened there and somehow I didn't think that this diplomatic mission would be so important, I guess apart of me just assumed that the spren had changed their minds entirely but no, the spren have nationalities, politics and so on just as much as humans do, because these spren are formed formed from human connections.

but isn't the argument WORSE for the humans now because the spren might die for realsies? no wait, your saying its better, because the other side doesn't value honorspren and thus will kill them all just for existing but the humans value them to keep them alive and they're going to die either way so they might as well go down fighting

Spoiler: Interludes 4-Part 5

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Hesina:
Here we get a look at Lirin, turns out he has admitted that people need to fight in the past, but has personal issues with his son doing and Hesina points out whether he'd rather someone less good than Kaladin be a warrior and Lirin is stubborn and evasive about this. there are various people starting to push the shash brand gylph on their forehead, the symbol turning from slave into a symbol of resistance and hope. just you wait, the series is going to end on everyone being bridge four- there will be no cultures or nations anymore. just bridge four.

Adin:
a young boy who wants to be a windrunner and thinks that he can get a spear and spren to fight and be brave. oh no. this kid's gonna die.

Taravangian:
he has a plan to kill Odium with the help of Sja-anat. and yes, cultivation has been playing a very subtle game with Sja-Anat, thank for your pointing out what everyone who has been paying attention already knows.

Part 5:
Wit.....is someone who is not bound......suddenly I'm more afraid of him than all the Shards. the Cosmere runs on rules and bindings and such. The most powerful person in such a world is not someone who masters those rules....but someone who doesn't need to follow them.

Navani finds the dagger with some anti-voidlight. question is.....who to kill with it? Vyre? Raboniel? someone else?

"You'll be known as the defeated, because every time I kill you, I kill your legend until your known as they guy who can't beat me"-Kaladin. Badass. come on, Sans this jerk until he quits!

"I accept that there will be those that I cannot protect!" Fourth Windrunner Ideal, LETS GOOOOOO!! *You Say Run intensifies* what'd I say? Cosmere: The Anime

Lewshi actually helps Venli. cool.

.....Taravangian....the new Odium......I.....don't know how to feel about this. Cultivation, why?

oh another speech from Wit about storytelling. alright you fourth-wall breaking rapscallion, what nonsense you have for me this time? oh.....oh.....ooooooooooooooohh........Taravangian has manipulated him. oh no. I think Taravangian is going be far more dangerous than ol' Rayse ever was...... Cultivation, WHY!?

okay so:
-Navani is second Bondsmith
-Rlain is radiant?
-Taravangian has become new Odium and is manipulating people into thinking Rayse is still alive
-Kaladin has sworn the fourth ideal, not sure where he is going after that, but he and his father accept they hlep in their own ways
-Shallan didn't join Ghostbloods and delivered a line from Wit to Thaidakar, whoever he is.
-Venli went back to her mother and got her words accepted
-Wit's memories can be manipulated as if in a time loop
-its kind of ironic that the Rhythm of War is helps Raboniel and Navani cooperate
-Taravangian is still bound to the contract as Odium. but I'm still nervous that Cultivation has made a terrible mistake...either that or she is playing an even longer game than anyone could imagine. how long con is she going here?

So yeah. read the whole book. it was a journey like always. I think I'll have to process this a bit....

[gmoyes]

Yeah, this book has a lot of set up for the next book.

Spoiler

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The best way I've heard Kaladin's plot called is 'Fantasy Die Hard'. It been fun seeing him improvise and trust his allies.
Navani discovering how the mechanics of the magic system work is fascinating. Part of the upcoming time skip will certainly involve the wide scale improvement and adaption of what she has discovered in this book. Though I'm concerned it may involve WMDs or Mutually Assured Destruction.
I kinda felt that the B plot with Shallan and Adolin sort of rushed, though that may be because of it being absent from act 3. Still, Maya's revelation was certainly an outstanding moment and I'm glad to see her start to recover. Perhaps restoring Maya is how Adolin becomes a Radiant. Thinking about the timeline, I think Adolin and Shallan may be out of the main plot for the next book as

Shallan didn't join Ghostbloods and delivered a line from Wit to Thaidakar, whoever he is.

The current lead theory is based on Thaidakar being referred to 'the Lord of Scars'.

Spoiler

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Kelsier

And holy $hit Taravangian and his messing with Wit. Someone with Taravangian's outlook shouldn't be given godhood. What is Cultivation playing at? Did she underestimate him, or is this according to her plan? Maybe this is her way of 'cutting dead branches/survival of the fittest'.

So the next book will most likely be focused on the duel of champions and the consequences there of. While the pact has been made, with Taravangian at the helm, who knows what will happen? Who will live and who will die? What new darknesses will our hero encounter both in the forces of Odium and within themselves? Find out next time in Stormlight Archives Book 5!

[Mechalich]

Spoiler

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So the next book will most likely be focused on the duel of champions and the consequences there of. While the pact has been made, with Taravangian at the helm, who knows what will happen? Who will live and who will die? What new darknesses will our hero encounter both in the forces of Odium and within themselves? Find out next time in Stormlight Archives Book 5!

Spoiler

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Several of the pre-chapter quotations near the very end of Rhythm of War are titled something something 'Final Ten Days.' (or maybe it's 'last ten days,' I read a library copy and don't recall the wording precisely; this book is not worth paying for). This strongly implies that Taravangian is going to attempt to bypass the contest of champions entirely, possibly by destroying Roshar outright during the intervening ten days or something similarly drastic. Dalinar's speculation at the very end of the book that maybe waiting ten days was a bad idea also follows along these lines. Therefore it is likely that most of book 5 will occur during the ten day period prior to the contest of champions, (chances that Sanderson manages less than 100 pages per individual day: 0%) with that event only happening near the conclusion of the book.

[Seerow]

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but isn't the argument WORSE for the humans now because the spren might die for realsies? no wait, your saying its better, because the other side doesn't value honorspren and thus will kill them all just for existing but the humans value them to keep them alive and they're going to die either way so they might as well go down fighting

That is a possibility, if the fused are smart enough to see it that way. They could in theory use their new technology as leverage saying "Look the humans may or may not break their oaths, but join with the humans and we WILL antilight you and you will die", and then if the spren do take the bait, force the humans to surrender because as we saw in Urithiru this book and Kholinar last book, armies of regular humans against armies of singers supported by fused get stomped.

However if the fused continue war as normal, just going out of their way to kill spren when they get the chance, then the Honorspren have every reason to join the fight keeping the sides even. From that perspective of even sides but supernatural support vulnerable to death for the first time is where I see a real chance at negotiating a lasting peace. Before the Recreance the spren never had a reason to stand down because they could always come back and bond another human.

Before antilight the Fused never had a reason to stand down because they could always come take over another singer. Short of a total genocide of one species or the other this cycle would go on forever. Now that the supernaturals can take real casualties, and they are fairly evenly matched, it's a reason to consider negotiations.

-Taravangian is still bound to the contract as Odium. but I'm still nervous that Cultivation has made a terrible mistake...either that or she is playing an even longer game than anyone could imagine. how long con is she going here?

The more common interpretation here is that TOd is much more dangerous and Cultivation screwed up by arranging for his elevation. Personally I think things are going exactly how Cultivation wanted. Why she wanted this and what her long term goal is? I have no earthly idea. Like I knew she wanted revenge against Rayse, but she probably doesn't have an issue with the power of Odium itself, so what does she plan to do now that she has a tag team with a new vessel? I suspect we won't see her plans until back 5, as next book should be squared pretty firmly around Big T.

-Wit's memories can be manipulated as if in a time loop

This was more a case of Rayse erasing the last 5-10 minutes of memories from Hoid's breath storage and resetting him to where he was, to force the encounter to take place again without him screwing it up by saying too much. I don't think he could do it indefinitely. There has been some theorizing that TOd was able to do more with the memories than just erase a few, but I think if he could have that second loop wouldn't have played out at all.

The current lead theory is based on Thaidakar being referred to 'the Lord of Scars'.

There's more than just that. We know the following:

Spoiler: Just in case, shouldn't be spoiling anything new just making the answer that much more obvious

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-Thaidakar is from another world.
-There's a mention from I want to say Mraize that Thaidakar has an affliction similar to the heralds, who are cognitive shadows and thus bound to Roshar.
-Hoid tells Shallan that he has slapped Thaidakar around before, and Hoid is very restricted in who he can hurt, and we have only seen him actually hurt one person on screen.
-The name itself actually should have been a hint to us from the beginning ."Ghost Bloods"? He is a Ghost brought back through the power of blood. Name checks out.

Several of the pre-chapter quotations near the very end of Rhythm of War are titled something something 'Final Ten Days.' (or maybe it's 'last ten days,' I read a library copy and don't recall the wording precisely; this book is not worth paying for). This strongly implies that Taravangian is going to attempt to bypass the contest of champions entirely, possibly by destroying Roshar outright during the intervening ten days or something similarly drastic. Dalinar's speculation at the very end of the book that maybe waiting ten days was a bad idea also follows along these lines. Therefore it is likely that most of book 5 will occur during the ten day period prior to the contest of champions, (chances that Sanderson manages less than 100 pages per individual day: 0%) with that event only happening near the conclusion of the book.

That's an interesting take I hadn't considered or even seen before. Roshar blowing up on book 5 would be interesting but I personally don't see it.

My favorite theory for what happens is Taravangian chooses a child (likely either Gavinor or Oroden) as his Champion. Feeding into the 1st book epigraph that says something along the lines of "I hold my knife to the suckling child's neck and know the whole world wants me to use it". If that turns out to be the case, we have the loophole of a duration of the contest not being set. In theory you could have Dalinar's champion refuse to make the kill, and instead wait until the child is grown. Giving us a tenative peace for the timeskip until things pick up 10-20 years later with child champion all grown up.

Though personally I am hoping that Odium just outright wins the contest. The terms that were set with Rayse were really quite good for the humans, and the main downside of losing is that Dalinar becomes an immortal fused. Which is something I personally really want to see.

[Tvtyrant]

Spoiler: Spoilers!

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I liked the book, but less then I did three. Dalinar is fairly passive and uninteresting here, and I think he is more interesting than Kaladin. His big shocker reveal was actually a
big shocker to me, while Kaladin's final oath and this books ending felt preordained from the beginning.

Shallan's story felt like a retread of earlier character development as well.

Taravangian's plot felt outright dumb. I sighed when I got to it, the foreshadowing came too late for it to not feel pulled out of nowhere and Odium was deliberately designed to be scarier then Ruin was, while in this book he was spooked the whole time and died anticlimatically.

[DSCrankshaw]

Spoiler: Adolin and Maya

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So, a few thoughts. While I think Adolin becoming Radiant would be interesting, don't forget that Maya deliberately broke her Radiant bond. I don't think she'd want to become a Radiant spren again, not unless the issues that caused her to break her bond were dealt with somehow. As we still haven't learned why that happened, we don't know what would address her concerns.

It also seems to me that the bond between Adolin and Maya resembles what Syl was asking for from Dalinar and the Stormfather, the ability to feel what Kaladin's going through. It's implied that such a bond would be stronger than the Radiant bond. Dalinar refused, but I wonder if such a bond is what happened between Adolin and Maya. I doubt such a bond would be one way.

Also, I feel like we're still missing what's going on with all those deadeyes that are gathered around Lasting Integrity. Are they waiting for something? Was Maya's awakening it, or do they want something more? Will they be following Adolin and Maya around Shadesmar? They sort of remind me of the spren who follow around Radiants as their armor, though I'm not sure that would make much sense in this case.

Spoiler: Book 5 Themes

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I've also been thinking about the themes of the books, and what we can predict of the final book's theme. Oathbringer's theme was Journey before Destination, and it seems obvious that Rhythm of War's theme is Strength before Weakness. But there are five books (in this first half of the series, anyway), and only three parts of the First Radiant Oath. But it makes sense if you think of it as a ketek, a sort of symmetrical poem, such as the final poem in Rhythm of War. In that case:

• The Way of Kings' theme is Life before Death. That makes sense, as the story of Kaladin and Bridge Four is about choosing life before death.
• Words of Radiance's theme is Strength before Weakness. That fits, as it was about protecting the weak, and Shallan finding strength by acting strong (putting her strength before her weakness).
• Oathbringer's theme is Journey before Destination. Dalinar's journey, mostly.
• Rhythm of War's theme is Strength before Weakness. We see this in Kaladin, Shallan, Adolin and Maya, even Navani.
• So, we expect the next book's theme to be Life before Death.

Except . . . in a ketek both words would be switched. It would be Weakness before Strength, Death before Life (and Journey before Destination before Journey, I suppose, for Oathbringer). Which doesn't make a ton of sense, until you realize that a ketek doesn't have to be an exact reversal.

What if, instead of Weakness before Strength, the theme of Rhythm of War was more along the lines of Weakness brings Strength (or Weakness begets Strength). That actually fits the book better than Strength before Weakness. It ties into Adolin's speech to Shallan about weakness making one strong. We can see that in Shallan's case, in Kaladin's depression teaching him to endure, in Adolin's and Maya's helplessness forming a bond between them, and in Navani's captivity forcing her to find her strength as a scholar.

So I'm going to predict that the next book's theme will be "Death begets Life."

[Thomas Cardew]

So I hadn't realized this had actually come out until I saw this thread so thank you for that. I just finished the audiobook version since that's all my library had available. I'm not certain if that was a good/bad thing. I definitely prefer reading physical books if only for the ease of finding where you left off and re-reading sections to better process them compared to rewinding a recording. But I'm not sure I would have finished this if it were an actual book. I found the mental health issues in this one especially difficult to slog through. If I had the ability to just skip ahead x pages I probably would have, through basically all of Kaladin's and Shallan's plotlines. Given that was the majority of the book...

I loved Sanderson's early stuff and started when only Elantris and Mistborn were published. The OG Mistborn trilogy remains one of my favorites. I enjoy his worldbuilding. and the overarching stuff about the Cosmere. But the Stormlight series hasn't been clicking for me in a long time. The stuff I love is bogged in stuff I don't care about or don't agree with like various aspects of the Knights Radiant philosophy. I don't like the characters, not the way I did with the Mistborn crew, and am actively annoyed by others. I think I might just start reading wiki's after the books have been out for awhile. Which makes me sad.

But to end on a positive note:

Spoiler: Ending Scene

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I found the ending scene with Eshonai and the Stormfather to be pretty beautiful. It might have been overly saccharine in other contexts. But after the depressing exhausting slog through Kaladin's and Shallan's issues, it was the prefect amount sweet in bittersweet ending as she got to see beyond all the Next Hills.

[Lord Raziere]

Honestly if your not a fan of mental issues then I think your reading the wrong series. These have been present since book 1, and the entire magic system is built on it: if I remember correctly, the nahel bond can't exist without some kind of mental issue being involved, as that mental issue creates the breach for that connection to form, its all tied up in Identity and Connection, as every single Knights Radiant was a broken person. Its why the first Oath is "Life Before death. Strength Before Weakness. Journey Before Destination" Its basically an oath to not kill yourself, keep your chin up and take everything one day at a time. Its pretty telling when your first oath of your order boils down to "hey take it easy, you don't need to have it all figured out immediately".

not saying you can't keep reading but if your seeing the two main characters stories as slogs to get through, this might just not be the series for you. I mean Stormlight archive is definitely more emotional and with more drama than his other works, I'll say that. Elantris was more of a political intrigue combined with someone trying to figure out what went wrong with some magic systems programming, while Mistborn was basically "Star Wars, but what if the rebellion was a group of thieves and the evil Empire was only the first boss?"/"What if that whole chosen one trope went horribly wrong?" while Warbreaker was basically "Princess and Nobility Problems: The Novel" and Wax and Wayne are Detective Novels cross between action movies for the first two and third was basically an indiana jones story- and then you that Allomancer Jak short story which is written as a shlocky pulp story but with snarky commentary by a Terrisman. Stormlight Archive is much longer and seems to be working on being a long epic fantasy kind of deal akin to Wheel of Time or something similar to it.

really its a testament to Sandersons flexibility and breadth as a writer that he can switch between diverse writing styles while still maintaining his level of quality, because the Wax and Wayne books don't feel like the Mistborn trilogy while still being good and still being set in the same world. and this is just his cosmere stuff. I haven't read other things by him but if Cosmere is any indication of how good they are...

[Mechalich]

As far as the portrayal of mental illness goes, particularly in this book, I see two significant problems.

First, while apparently all the Radiants do need to have some form of mental illness in order to be Radiant, there's very clearly a huge variation in level of severity and the text has chosen as the leads the two people who have it the worst by a considerable margin. Khaladin and Shallan both have dozens of subordinates, all of whom are significantly more functional than they are, and the same is true in the other orders. The most 'advanced' Radiant at the start of the book is Jasnah, and while she clearly would receive a DSM V diagnosis in the 21st century she's also incredibly high functioning. I mean even Szeth appears to have a better handle on his pathologies than the two leads. Choosing to center the story on two maximally damaged people is a clearly stilted emphasis.

Two, it's one thing to have mental illness as a significant plot point, but this book positively wallows in depictions of mental damage. Considering the extremely ridiculous wordcount per plot developments in Stormlight Archive as a whole and Rhythm of War in particular (the book is an titanic 460,000 words, almost as long as LotR (480,000) in one book) it starts to smack of mental illness pron after a while. It particularly bad given that what plot there is happens to be so predictable that characters in the text outright state what must occur in order for the story continue.

Spoiler

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Specifically, I'm referring to the loss and the recapture of Urithiru, which is so strategically essential that it has to be restored before any other significant developments in the war can occur or the good guys simply lose totally. Everyone is aware of this, and since Khaladin must snap out of his severe depression episode in order to accomplish this the extraordinary amount of time spent dwelling on it - particularly the whole Moash bit, an entire subplot that you know will fail from before it even begins - smacks of masochism

[Seerow]

As far as the portrayal of mental illness goes, particularly in this book, I see two significant problems.

First, while apparently all the Radiants do need to have some form of mental illness in order to be Radiant, there's very clearly a huge variation in level of severity and the text has chosen as the leads the two people who have it the worst by a considerable margin. Khaladin and Shallan both have dozens of subordinates, all of whom are significantly more functional than they are, and the same is true in the other orders. The most 'advanced' Radiant at the start of the book is Jasnah, and while she clearly would receive a DSM V diagnosis in the 21st century she's also incredibly high functioning. I mean even Szeth appears to have a better handle on his pathologies than the two leads. Choosing to center the story on two maximally damaged people is a clearly stilted emphasis.

Two, it's one thing to have mental illness as a significant plot point, but this book positively wallows in depictions of mental damage. Considering the extremely ridiculous wordcount per plot developments in Stormlight Archive as a whole and Rhythm of War in particular (the book is an titanic 460,000 words, almost as long as LotR (480,000) in one book) it starts to smack of mental illness pron after a while. It particularly bad given that what plot there is happens to be so predictable that characters in the text outright state what must occur in order for the story continue.

Spoiler

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Specifically, I'm referring to the loss and the recapture of Urithiru, which is so strategically essential that it has to be restored before any other significant developments in the war can occur or the good guys simply lose totally. Everyone is aware of this, and since Khaladin must snap out of his severe depression episode in order to accomplish this the extraordinary amount of time spent dwelling on it - particularly the whole Moash bit, an entire subplot that you know will fail from before it even begins - smacks of masochism

Journey Before Destination, man.

[Thomas Cardew]

Honestly if your not a fan of mental issues then I think your reading the wrong series. These have been present since book 1, and the entire magic system is built on it: if I remember correctly, the nahel bond can't exist without some kind of mental issue being involved, as that mental issue creates the breach for that connection to form.

I mean technically you just need cracks in your spirit web. Mental issues are just the easiest way. But it’s also not the entire magic system. Spren, fabrials, the applications of the magic exist independently of the bonds. Interactions with other shards magic are going to exist independently. It’s stuff like that I enjoy along with the cross planetary stuff. That’s the stuff that made Shallan’s plot tolerable to me and Navani’s reasonably enjoyable.

not saying you can't keep reading but if your seeing the two main characters stories as slogs to get through, this might just not be the series for you.

And this gets more to points Mechalich raised. It’s a balancing act: there’s a difference as he says between having characters who have problems and wallowing in it. Imagine if Wheel of Time was almost entirely composed of Rand’s issues and his moping. I doubt I would have finished that story. As it was done, it added to the story and addressed some topics. This series is sadly increasing failing the balance act for me.Part of that has to do with the shape of the current world. I think for most people 2020 has been a lot more depressing that 2010 when WoK came out. I have less emotional bandwidth and desire to deal with fictional characters issues than I’ve had previously.

I’d also add a third point. I find a certain … perverseness … in the way that more mental damage means more power. Kaladin and Shallan are more powerful because of the extent of their trauma. Some radiants don’t ever advance in the oaths because they don’t have the required mental trauma. I don’t think this is a good thing. It seems to go beyond acceptance of the mentalyl ill into celebrating mental trauma as good thing in its own right. This doesn’t seem healthy. Some mental issues really can be catching like how having someone near you commit suicide increases your risk of suicide. Anecdotally, I have a friend with severe depression who basically refused to read any sections with Kaladin because it caused them to think in actively negative ways. He gave up after WoR. And yes, I’m aware that there’s a counter argument that they become more powerful by dealing with and facing their traumas. That just really rings false to me as both Kaladin’s depression and Shallan’s dissociative problems seem to gotten worse over the last books. Maybe it’s an execution issue. I’m not an expert in this by any means but it really doesn’t sit well with me. Not trying to start a moral panic at all, just trying explain my issues with it.

really its a testament to Sandersons flexibility and breadth as a writer that he can switch between diverse writing styles while still maintaining his level of quality, because the Wax and Wayne books don't feel like the Mistborn trilogy while still being good and still being set in the same world. and this is just his cosmere stuff. I haven't read other things by him but if Cosmere is any indication of how good they are...

His writing is serviceable. He’s at his best when he’s making magic systems or writing fight scenes in those magic systems. Other than that, it’s not great prose, but it doesn’t need to be. That said, the lack of polish in his later stuff does show. His earliest stuff got rewritten multiple times before being published but still had some rough edges. His current stuff doesn’t go through quite the same rigorous process. I strongly feel you could cull several hundred pages out of the SA so far without losing anything. He also drops the ball on couple of occasions: Calamity arguably being the worst. Those criticisms aside: He’s a great author, one my favorites, and his worst is much better than a lot of the other drek that gets published.

Spoiler: For Reckoner's YA series and Calamity specifically

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Part of the Reckoner’s concept was that if you give ordinary people superpowers you’re not going to get selfless superheroes. You’re going to get a lot of petty supervillains. Paraphrasing it was the realization that ‘give me telekinesis and I’m not using it to save the world, I’m using to fling the guy who cut me off out of traffic.’ It's about power corrupting etc. Then you get to the end of the series and find out: Oh wait, no it’s this one evil entity who was making all superheroes be evil. Remove him and people go back to being naturally good and become superheroes. It falls pretty flat and undercuts a lot of the stuff that came before it.

[Mechalich]

I strongly feel you could cull several hundred pages out of the SA so far without losing anything.

Absolutely. Stormlight Archive is averaging close to 450,000 words per book. Each one is significantly longer than any Wheel of Time novel (the longest individual Wheel of Time novel, Lord of Chaos, came in at just under 400,000) and substantially longer than the A Song of Ice and Fire books (the longest of which, Storm of Swords, is 425,000). And then there's the fact that the series also includes 'novellas' like Edgedancer and Dawnshard and as it proceeds its becoming more and more intricately tied to the rest of the 'Cosmere' so that anyone trying to read just SA is missing more and more material with each tome.

WoT and ASOIAF, while certainly very lengthy, have far more plot density than SA as well. There's a massively larger number of viewpoint characters and there's just more going on generally. Even the Malazan Book of the Fallen - which took wallowing to some truly disgusting heights in terms of its obsession with human misery and suffering - felt like it had more going on than SA does (admittedly that's because Malazan had no intention of resolving about 90% of it).

One thing I found particularly annoying about the extremely low plot density in RoW is that the book keeps introducing interesting and presumably highly important new stuff in terms of the overall world of Roshar and the Spren with extreme brevity in order to preferentially spend time on mental illness or going into the mechanics of stormlight and fabrial manipulation in excruciating detail (the amount of words spilled on playing with the glove was particularly frustrating).

Honestly, if the pandemic wasn't going on I'm pretty sure I would have dropped RoW somewhere in the middle.