Could the gods open negotiations via a goblin cleric other than Redcloak?

[RowenMorland]

So it might be possible to end the threat of the snarl with the help of The Dark One. Until then it is only a matter of time before the world is destroyed. Even if Roy's team stop Team Evil it is going to be another thing that lets the Snarl out, maybe in a hundred years, or maybe from some of the other factions that know about the gates from this incident.

So if Redcloak won't deliver the message isn't it essential to get another goblin cleric to pass it on, and if there isn't a high enough one in existence can the gods make one by asking their followers to offer themselves up as XP until they've created one. It isn't even a terrible deal for the followers since being alive when the Snarl goes free is far worse for them than being safe in the afterlife to be spirited away.

[dancrilis]

Couple of minor problems.
1. The gods cannot directly converse with there followers unless said followers are dead - this is why Thor needed Durkon to be dead before speaking to him.
2. The gods cannot talk about the snarl with anyone who doesn't already know about it - this is why Thor wasn't able to talk about it with Minrah until he knew she knew about it already.
3. Even if they have enough followers who die and are brought back and are willing to go off and die facing a goblin for no clear reason they would still need to have that goblin not die in some other manner - such as other adventurers seeking to kill the powerful goblin, or the goblin biting off more then they can chew due to overestimating their new power.
4. Even if they get a goblin up to level 17 via this plan they still need to actually convince them to help and not only would this goblin have a lot of experience killing the servants of the gods it would know effectively nothing about the snarl so be less likely then Redcloak to be co-operative as they would have less reason to believe the world is doomed and every reason to believe that the gods are opposed to it.
5. Even if the goblin is very reasonable the gods cannot speak to them directly and also cannot tell any servant other then one who knows about the snarl to communicate with it - so Thor would need Durkon or Minrah for example to die then explain the new plan, then get them somehow across the world to try to speak to the new goblin.

Other then those hurdles sure it might work.

As a separate matter the gods don't want to negotiate with The Dark One they want a drop of his power so they can do the rest without him - otherwise they would merely be seeking some Goblin to successfully cast commune (but the same problems exist for getting a goblin to do that and we have reason to believe that The Dark One doesn't answer them anyway).

[Keltest]

For starters, i dont think you get XP for having a creature throw themselves on your sword. You have to resolve an encounter in some way, not just be in proximity to a death.

Secondly, i dont think any of the gods would be terribly happy to order their followers to kill themselves, and its incredibly unlikely that said followers would go along with it.

Thirdly, there is no reason that any sort of future high priest would be inclined to give the gods who hounded him his entire lift the time of day, let alone advocate for them.

[Lord Raziere]

Thirdly, there is no reason that any sort of future high priest would be inclined to give the gods who hounded him his entire lift the time of day, let alone advocate for them.

Pretty much.

basically, Redcloak while probably the most standout example with the most extreme reaction, isn't an inaccurate picture. any goblin who gets as far as level 17 would probably have much the same problems as him, they might be more reasonable about them but then we wouldn't have a compelling narrative. though I'd argue that Redcloak is honestly pretty idealistic for someone in his position. I'd wager there would be tons of goblins who'd just do the current plan for revenge without any justification or hope for the future.

[Ron Miel]

Couple of minor problems.
1. The gods cannot directly converse with there followers unless said followers are dead - this is why Thor needed Durkon to be dead before speaking to him.

This is not correct.

[Metastachydium]

Couple of minor problems.
1. The gods cannot directly converse with there followers unless said followers are dead - this is why Thor needed Durkon to be dead before speaking to him.
(…)
5. Even if the goblin is very reasonable the gods cannot speak to them directly and also cannot tell any servant other then one who knows about the snarl to communicate with it - so Thor would need Durkon or Minrah for example to die then explain the new plan, then get them somehow across the world to try to speak to the new goblin.

While Ron's example is not the best one (it's from DCF, and DCF is 99% early installment weirdness), this is quite certainly not the case. The gods can hear the prayers of the mortals just fine, and can answer them if they so choose.

As a separate matter the gods don't want to negotiate with The Dark One

True.

they want a drop of his power so they can do the rest without him - otherwise they would merely be seeking some Goblin to successfully cast commune (but the same problems exist for getting a goblin to do that and we have reason to believe that The Dark One doesn't answer them anyway).

This is a theory you have rather than a fact. Although you could very well be right (Thor is Evil!), we are yet to see any evidence that Redcloak can channel Big Purple's power/quiddity/whatever into the Gate-sealing procedure without Big Purple's approval, and we are yet to see any evidence that once Redcloak makes his contribution, the other gods can just siphon power off the Dark One at their leisure.

[dancrilis]

This is not correct.

There is a difference between conversing and answering prayers for spells.

There is no indication that Thor could have said 'Hey Durkon there is a self destruct rune in the throne room of this dungeon - warn everyone to leave it alone. Important things hinge on it' or that he could have said 'let the goblin cleric escape or capture him, but do not kill him'.

While Ron's example is not the best one (it's from DCF, and DCF is 99% early installment weirdness), this is quite certainly not the case. The gods can hear the prayers of the mortals just fine, and can answer them if they so choose.

As per the above there is no reason to suspect that Loki could provide knowledge that wasn't asked for via whatever spell Hilgya used (likely commune for the answer to 'Where is Durkon Thundershield').

This is a theory you have rather than a fact. Although you could very well be right (Thor is Evil!), we are yet to see any evidence that Redcloak can channel Big Purple's power/quiddity/whatever into the Gate-sealing procedure without Big Purple's approval, and we are yet to see any evidence that once Redcloak makes his contribution, the other gods can just siphon power off the Dark One at their leisure.

Thor said effectively 'get him to commit a 9th level spell slot, let me know' not 'get him to provide a 9th level spell slot to get us open communications with the Dark One' - it is possible that if Redcloak provides the spell The Dark One could veto it and make it all pointless but that would effectively go back to Durkon's comment to Thor about convincing a God which Thor told him he didn't have to do.

[Metastachydium]

There is a difference between conversing and answering prayers for spells.

Hilgya did not pray for spells. She prayed for an answer to her question.

There is no indication that Thor could have said 'Hey Durkon there is a self destruct rune in the throne room of this dungeon - warn everyone to leave it alone. Important things hinge on it' or that he could have said 'let the goblin cleric escape or capture him, but do not kill him'.

Arguably, there is: Loki's message to Hilgya. Also, there's the fact that all high priests knew about the Godsmoot, its exact time and location. It is quite difficult to explain how they could have learned that if they can only communicate with dead folks and clerics that cast commune and the like.

As per the above there is no reason to suspect that Loki could provide knowledge that wasn't asked for via whatever spell Hilgya used (likely commune for the answer to 'Where is Durkon Thundershield').

There is no indication that Hilgya used a spell. She said she prayed to her god, and he answered.

Thor said effectively 'get him to commit a 9th level spell slot, let me know' not 'get him to provide a 9th level spell slot to get us open communications with the Dark One' - it is possible that if Redcloak provides the spell The Dark One could veto it and make it all pointless but that would effectively go back to Durkon's comment to Thor about convincing a God which Thor told him he didn't have to do.

Yes, Durkon doesn't have to and would be unable to communicate with the Dark One if he tried. That's not to say Redcloak doesn't have to do so/gain his approval in soma other way for Thor's plan to work. We know precious little about this plan anyway: even Durkon isn't supposed to get the details until after he will have convinced Redcloak to cooperate.
Accordingly, the idea that Thor intends to deceive the Dark One is not something we know to be true. It's a theory, which may or may not be correct.

[RowenMorland]

Secondly, i dont think any of the gods would be terribly happy to order their followers to kill themselves, and its incredibly unlikely that said followers would go along with it.

But about half the gods were willing to scrap the whole world and kill all their followers. Also I'm not sure if it how much it counts for the gods being able to communicate their wishes directly to their priests but didn't Odin provide the prophecy that Durkon would bring back death and destruction when he returned to Dwarven lands which certainly got a message across, and one that a Dwarven high priest was willing to toss Durkon's life away on.

[Lord Torath]

There is no indication that Hilgya used a spell.

But there is: panel 5

[Metastachydium]

But there is: panel 5

Yes, and we also see her cast Flame Strike a couple of times, which is also a spell. I fail to see, however, how's any of that relevant to the matter at hand. Panel no. 5 itself makes it abundantly clear that Hilgya did not use scrying to contact Loki. Rather, she began to pray for guidance because the spell failed.

[Keltest]

But about half the gods were willing to scrap the whole world and kill all their followers. Also I'm not sure if it how much it counts for the gods being able to communicate their wishes directly to their priests but didn't Odin provide the prophecy that Durkon would bring back death and destruction when he returned to Dwarven lands which certainly got a message across, and one that a Dwarven high priest was willing to toss Durkon's life away on.

They were willing to do so when the perceived alternative was "the world is annihilated by the snarl, they die anyway and their souls are unmade." That doesnt mean that theyre willing to actually instruct their followers to do the deed themselves. Or, again, that their followers would actually do so.

[fuschiawarrior]

We have the last panels of this page showing a very open conversation between Hel and her High Priest at the time or it doesn't count since he wasn't alive?

[Dion]

I’m honestly not sure if Thor‘s current plan actually involves communicatIng with TDO at all.

I think he just wants to somehow hijack a spell slot; it’s not clear to me if TDO’s cooperation is required.

But I’m sure I’ve missed something in a strip that makes Thor’s intentions clearer.

[Anymage]

Hilgya did not pray for spells. She prayed for an answer to her question.

Which could very easily mean praying for and then casting a spell like Divination. I find "a cleric asked for a spell that would reveal the information, but only recently did divine politics shift to the point where she got an answer than 'I dunno'" makes more sense than Loki directly communicating outside the framework of spell based systems.

Also, in 1148 Durkon specifically says that he's cast Commune before and Thor hasn't answered. That very much sets up a context of a priest trying to reach out with a spell, and the god being too busy to pick up. When you have that sort of framework for clerics to pray to their gods for guidance, you don't need a separate parallel one where gods can appear to prayer just because.

Also, there's the fact that all high priests knew about the Godsmoot, its exact time and location. It is quite difficult to explain how they could have learned that if they can only communicate with dead folks and clerics that cast commune and the like.

A reasonable interpretation is that when there's an important matter, a high priest might well get Commune instead of one of the spells they were otherwise praying for. This would be a very good tipoff that the god wanted to communicate something, and to cast the spell to receive the information. Stickverse gods, not being omniscient, wouldn't necessarily have the awareness to know the situations of all their priests or be able to make personalized recommendations for more of them.

It's not strict RAW, but it requires less moving the narrative out of the way than assuming that gods will regularly have personal interactions with all their worshipers outside the framework of spells. (A framework which was repeatedly hinted at as being in place to keep gods from personally meddling with mortals too often.)

We have the last panels of this page showing a very open conversation between Hel and her High Priest at the time or it doesn't count since he wasn't alive?

With his eyes closed and some form of magic effect coming off of his hands. Considering that at the godsmoot the gods needed the Summon Proxy spell in order to manifest and speak, I think we can chalk that up to a spell effect as well. Greg got a priority meeting with Hel instead of having to deal with a functionary like a common priest would, but that's due to his position as high priest and lynchpin position in her plan.

Edit to add, main point of thread: In theory if Redcloak could communicate with TDO, and if TDO were receptive, and if TDO didn't have some other scheme going on that will be revealed later to complicate things, Red could indeed be used to help reinstate the communications that had broken down. That's a lot of ifs that are unlikely to come to fruition, even ignoring the fact that Redcloak has shown his disinterest in being a channel for that sort of diplomacy.

I'm sure that if Thor had some way to communicate with TDO through other channels, he'd be happy to try that. Getting the power from one of Red's ninth level slots is a desperation move to help shore up a failing reality when diplomacy isn't working and they don't have time. Finding another goblin priest who happened to be more inclined to work with the common races and helping them level to seventeen would take a bunch of time that the world doesn't necessarily have, and that's before you factor in how long it'd take to engineer a situation where they'd learn about the snarl and could thus be told the whole story. I think that a lot of people's ideas to sidestep the plot assume a lot less time pressure than there actually is.

[Metastachydium]

Which could very easily mean praying for and then casting a spell like Divination. I find "a cleric asked for a spell that would reveal the information, but only recently did divine politics shift to the point where she got an answer than 'I dunno'" makes more sense than Loki directly communicating outside the framework of spell based systems.

Also, in 1148 Durkon specifically says that he's cast Commune before and Thor hasn't answered. That very much sets up a context of a priest trying to reach out with a spell, and the god being too busy to pick up. When you have that sort of framework for clerics to pray to their gods for guidance, you don't need a separate parallel one where gods can appear to prayer just because.

A reasonable interpretation is that when there's an important matter, a high priest might well get Commune instead of one of the spells they were otherwise praying for. This would be a very good tipoff that the god wanted to communicate something, and to cast the spell to receive the information. Stickverse gods, not being omniscient, wouldn't necessarily have the awareness to know the situations of all their priests or be able to make personalized recommendations for more of them.

It's not strict RAW, but it requires less moving the narrative out of the way than assuming that gods will regularly have personal interactions with all their worshipers outside the framework of spells. (A framework which was repeatedly hinted at as being in place to keep gods from personally meddling with mortals too often.)

The thing is, she says she prayed and Loki answered the prayer. I have difficulty believing that this means she kept asking for spells and Loki didn't give them.
At any rate, gods can absolutely talk to/through mortals without said mortals casting a spell. Veldrina is not casting anything and very obviously has no idea what's happening when the Western gods zot into her. Likewise, during the fight with Malack Durkon requests guidance from Thor via simply speaking to him (the spell he's casting is a healing one: on the next panel one of his wounds disappear), and it doesn't look like it doesn't work because it's impossible. It looks like it doesn't work because Thor is otherwise occupied and not paying attention.

[Ron Miel]

Considering that at the godsmoot the gods needed the Summon Proxy spell in order to manifest and speak,

I don't think that's correct. If they meet directly then any disagreement risks creating another Snarl. They use proxies for safety.

[Ninja Dragon]

How do we know being lv 17 is a requirement to do the thing?

[hamishspence]

It takes a minimum of 17 levels in cleric to gain a 9th level divine spell slot.


And Thor said they need a 9th level spell slot:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html

[Keltest]

I don't think that's correct. If they meet directly then any disagreement risks creating another Snarl. They use proxies for safety.

I dont think thats correct either, at least within pantheons. They may use proxies because there are gods like Fenrir and Loki in the pantheon who need to basically be forced to participate without screwing up the whole point, but single-pantheon god conflicts cant create a snarl capable of any serious threat. Single-quiddity entities were explicitly described as being easy for the gods to dismantle on their own. The current Snarl is a threat because it has more quiddities than all the existing gods combined can deal with, not just because its a snarl in and of itself.

Besides which, we see gods meet in person both cross pantheon and intra-pantheon semi-frequently, even in disagreement. Theres more to it than just "dont meet in person."

[Metastachydium]

I dont think thats correct either, at least within pantheons. They may use proxies because there are gods like Fenrir and Loki in the pantheon who need to basically be forced to participate without screwing up the whole point, but single-pantheon god conflicts cant create a snarl capable of any serious threat. Single-quiddity entities were explicitly described as being easy for the gods to dismantle on their own. The current Snarl is a threat because it has more quiddities than all the existing gods combined can deal with, not just because its a snarl in and of itself.

Besides which, we see gods meet in person both cross pantheon and intra-pantheon semi-frequently, even in disagreement. Theres more to it than just "dont meet in person."

Since intra-pantheon aggression is a thing and gods can do it with impunity, with so many gods with differing agendas present at one place moots would have a potenbtial for escalating rather quickly, so speaking through proxies may still help prevent disruptive behaviour and make the whole thing safer in general.

[Keltest]

Since intra-pantheon aggression is a thing and gods can do it with impunity, with so many gods with differing agendas present at one place moots would have a potenbtial for escalating rather quickly, so speaking through proxies may still help prevent disruptive behaviour and make the whole thing safer in general.

Yeah, thats basically what i meant when i was talking about Loki and Fenrir. They do a video call because its necessary for productivity, not because they literally cant meet in person without danger.