Support the GITP forums on Patreon
Help support GITP's forums (and ongoing server maintenance) via Patreon
Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 61 to 90 of 122
  1. - Top - End - #61
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Location
    Area 51

    Default Re: Fear of Psionics and its Impact over 5 Editions in D&D

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    The trouble with such a mechanic lies in how long combats last in both RL time and game-mechanic rounds (not to mention in-game time). In most games I've played in, combats that run for hours of RL time take 1 to 7 rounds to play out, depending on the system and the medium of play and the experience of the players. But 3 rounds is often the case in 5e, in my experience. "Stare at it longer" could translate into "don't actually do anything in the combat," or "wait until the last round to do something," etc.

    Now, you mention initiative, so having it be once per round but it knocks your init down is a possibility...but it also is not much of a cost at that point. Initiative is useful, but not something that can't be given up easily enough (and sometimes is advantageous to).

    One possibility that might work in 5e would be to simply crib the general mechanic of Incarnum/Veilweaving/Akashic essence from 3.5 and DSP's work in PF. But instead of shaping soulmelds, the psionic character knows certain powers, and can move his psychic focus between them. I still like the idea of also having an "expend the power points" option, but that's potentially not adding enough to be worth it. I think Mystic did something similar, but tried to do too much in one class, which is why it flopped. The devs wanted a single class to playtest the mechanic, but the mechanic probably needs multiple subclasses for other existing classes as well as 1-2 full classes with their own subclasses to really test out.
    one possibility of the Men who Stare at Goats Mechanic,

    is the notion of
    1. active concentration DURING staring (build up can be interrupted)
    2. a time unit curve:

    curve 1. initiative points lost:
    bonuses: low
    cons: you could get interrupted by someone noticing you staring if they act before your lowered initiative number is reached. Your staring begins at the higher initiative, and your Glaring/Staring has an ever increasingly obvious "notice" bonus to perception or insight checks for SENTIENT creatures.

    Animals on the other hand, trigger their fight/flight instincts - some freeze in place, being watched, others realize they are being watched and flee, and more aggressive types begin barking/attacking. Pack animals might howl for backup, or be frightened and flee if the Aura of the Psychic is way stronger than the animals..

    Curve 2. Rounds lost:
    bonuses: medium
    cons: entire rounds are lost. If you are trying to do something, you have to maintain the equivalence of eye contact and uninterrupted concentration. You can possibly move, taking a move action at walking speed, or levitate etc. at similar "slow" speeds, but you can't do stuff like attack or sprint, you are easily flanked, and while you can theoretically walk slowly to hide behind a bush, you must maintain a visual/Sensory path to your target. So you could hide behind rose bushes, or on the other side of a fish tank, but you couldn't hide behind a brick wall. 3/4 cover would be the best you could hope for. Full cover would negate your stare.

    Curve 3. Minutes lost:
    bonuses: medium
    cons: same as rounds

    Curve 4. Hours lost:
    bonuses: High
    Cons: same as minutes, plus a level of exhaustion

    Proposed map of scaled curve:
    1+2+3+4... because this adds up to +10
    thus +4 "somethings" takes -10 initiative.

    the next scale is 1 round, 3 rounds, 6 rounds, 10 rounds (i.e. 1 minute)

    Bonus/Time: requires concentration, 3/4 or less cover, can only move after effect.
    +1, -1 initiative
    +2, -3 initiative
    +3, -6 initiative
    +4, -10 initiative or whole round

    +5, 1 round, concentration, 3/4 or less cover, can only move slow, limited actions
    +6, 3 rounds
    +7, 6 rounds
    +8, 10 rounds or 1 minute

    +9, 2-9 minutes or similar transition unit; concentration, 3/4 or less cover, + possible level of exhaustion
    +10, 10 minutes
    +11, 30 minutes
    +12, 60 minutes

    +13, hours?, +1-2 levels of exhaustion.


    What the numbers mean?

    Depends on the edition. The above material is crudely setup for 5e. It's saying something +1-12, so perhaps on a skill total equivalent of power?

    Example: some large dragon gods have a Passive Perception of 36, so +12 on that sort of scale would require 24 points from someplace else, such as level, attribute bonuses, etc. Some classes in that system have a "double proficiency bonus" so you might see something like 1d20 + 5-10 from stat +6-12 from double proficiency bonus = 12-32.

    Put another way, spending an hour straight staring at something for an effect is a +12 bonus. Naturally, if the target moves out of the way, this hour was wasted.

    As cumulative bonus Psychic Strength Points:

    The scale could be slightly more precise and have even bigger scaling points. Initiative with various bonuses can hit around 26-30, thus going past 10 is possible, especially when you instead of skill equivalent (like a stealth check of 19) you are talking about point costs to active a power, or measure its overall power total. Spell points for higher level spells in Spells & Magic for example, charged 60 points for a Wish, but only 4 points for a Magic Missile. That was a curve from 4-60, with fireball and cone of cold being around 15-20 points.

    So the next number after -10 is -15, then -21, then -28. Whatever your initiative is, that would determine your maximum round 1 bonus points (good incentive to take initiative feats).
    5 points: -15
    6 points: -21
    7 points: -28

    I don't think there's a point in going to 8 points/-36 initiative, as the stats and dice don't support it, but it's there for reference. When your initiative total drops to 0 or less, your Stare Bumps into "full round/next round".

    After that, you might go:
    8 points: round 3
    9 points: round 6
    10 pts: round 10/1st minute

    then you have /3/6/10/15/21/28/36/45/55 minutes +9 more, for a total of 19,
    and your first hour block is 20 points.

    then you have 3/6/10/15 hours, and since people sleep about every 16 hours, we are done, with 24 maximum points,
    and 5-7 points maximum within a single initiative set.

    There's no particular reason to stick to triangle numbers. We could use anything. Odd numbers, square numbers, 3/5/8/13 numbers, etc. Triangle numbers are just easy to remember and used in 3.5e
    Last edited by anthon; 2021-01-02 at 03:25 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #62
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Segev's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location

    Default Re: Fear of Psionics and its Impact over 5 Editions in D&D

    I think the cons on rounds lost are the highest; beyond that, it's not combat-doable anyway (at least in 5e D&D).

    I should add that the initiative count lost mechanic weirdly encourages you to have the lowest initiative. If you're the last person to act in the round, it doesn't matter how many initiative counts you "pay" to "wait through," because you still get as many of them as you need prior to the next round starting, except now nobody else can act until you're done. This is somewhat easily rectified by saying that if this puts your initiative below 1, the remaining "ticks" are subtracted from your next round's initiative and you have to keep Concentrating the whole time.

    If you're taking minutes, then you're not in combat, and you're basically casting a ritual. Only now, you're getting more effect out of it than normal, at as little cost (which I think 5e treats as "practically none") as a ritual, which only gives you the minimal effect of whatever spell you're casting (i.e. no upcasting).

    Hours, you add a level of exhaustion, but here, you're probably not doing this on an adventuring day anyway. "Staring" for hours is likely done on a day off, so if you're exhausted when it's done, you just rest up, and the long rest removes that level of exhaustion. Again, minimal to no real cost, aside from declaring that this is like item crafting in 3e: something you do during downtime.

    It's kind of like a mechanic I've wanted to make work for magic for years, but have realized just probably doesn't work in a game rather than a narrative story: casting spells makes you younger, and that IS the limiting cost. But if the spells have a noticeable impact of years lost, that's a finite number of castings in a given character during a campaign, since campaigns don't operate on year scales (and certainly not over decades) on a regular basis. If they don't have a notable cost in years, then it's practically no-cost. There's a reason RPGs use limiting resources that refresh by the hour, day, or (at most) week.

    Similarly, a mechanic based on manifestation time needs to operate meaningfully on the time scale of combat. It needs to leave you able to act regularly before combat is over but also still be a real cost. The "initiative count delay" version is the only one that meets this requirement, and it's still a pretty low cost, unless interruption during manifestation is a regular issue (in which case it needs to be actually pretty buff, since interruption means the effect fails and you basically didn't get to act).

  3. - Top - End - #63
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Luccan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    The Old West
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Fear of Psionics and its Impact over 5 Editions in D&D

    I was always thought the issue in AD&D was that it was a bunch of separate rules that you had to be lucky to be able to interact with. But if I recall you could still be subject to psionic attack if you weren't psionic, you just couldn't do anything about it (except try to kill the guy doing it first). And also anyone who was psionic also got free abilities of vastly different power level at questionable cost.
    Last edited by Luccan; 2021-01-02 at 03:13 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    All Roads Lead to Gnome.

    I for one support the Gnoman Empire.
    Avatar by linklele

    Spoiler: Build Contests
    Show

    E6 Iron Chef XVI Shared First Place: Black Wing

    E6 Iron Chef XXI Shared Second Place: The Shadow's Hand


  4. - Top - End - #64
    Librarian in the Playground Moderator
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    San Antonio, Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Fear of Psionics and its Impact over 5 Editions in D&D

    Quote Originally Posted by Luccan View Post
    I was always thought the issue in AD&D was that it was a bunch of separate rules that you had to be lucky to be able to interact with. But if I recall you could still be subject to psionic attack if you weren't psionic, you just couldn't do anything about it (except try to kill the guy doing it first). And also anyone who was psionic also got free abilities of vastly different power level at questionable cost.
    Depends on the rules.

    AD&D, across both editions, had 3 different psionics rulesets.

    The 1e rules were an appendix in the PH, like the Bard. They were, IMO, confusingly written, and psychic combat was even worse. However, non-psychics were pretty much immune to psionic combat, except for psychic blast.

    The Complete Psionics rules were pretty solid, but *very* MAD... Intelligence, Wisdom, and Constitution were all necessary for a well-rounded psionicist, and a couple powers called on Dex or Charisma, as well. Improving powers was difficult and expensive, so if you didn't have good stats, you were gonna be bad as a psionicist. Psionic combat wasn't bad... a non-psychic was pretty vulnerable, but at least it took two rounds to get set up (one round to Contact, one round to start doing nasty things to their brain). A functional psychic would take at least 3 rounds to do... it took three successful psychic attacks to open a mind, and you only got 2 per round, chipping away at your own PSPs to do it.

    Skills and Powers (also known as the "Way of the Psionicist" rules for Dark Sun R&E) were their own kind of mess. While they made psionic powers improve automatically (rolling against a set Mental Armor Class based on the power, with an ever-increasing mental ThAC0), they borked psionic combat to the point where you were better off putting up your psychic defenses and punching the guy in the nose.

    All three had a system of "wild talents", as they got called in 2e... folks with psychic powers unrelated to their class. 2e introduced the psionicist, who had psychic powers as a main class feature.
    The Cranky Gamer
    *It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
    *Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
    *Two Tales of Tellene, available from DriveThruFiction
    *The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
    Avatar is from local user Mehangel
    Written by Me on DriveThru RPG
    If you need me to address a thread as a moderator, include a link.

  5. - Top - End - #65
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Location
    Area 51

    Default Re: Fear of Psionics and its Impact over 5 Editions in D&D

    regarding staring at goats and free/out of combat actions:

    this is sometimes true, but more narrative control. Like in one of the threads someone was talking about how to take down a prismatic wall. A clever poster suggested waiting 10 minutes.

    if you need 6 minutes for the troll army to mobilize from disparate cave chambers to wait on the other side of the prismatic wall, then minutes 1-5 are critical for the party to take down the wall and escape being vastly outnumbered. Adding a variable die roll to the "and then you roll dice and cross your fingers" type take down of the hypothetical wall could push the presumptuous psychic to hold till the last minute to try to eek out their maximum bonus, lest they fail one check and then start all over.

    Fatigue can also be problematic with ambushes. While in a perfect setting you might have fatigue + rest - which makes for a good Meditation to create/modify new powers, it's also dangerous if you have enemies, or random hungry flying monsters who just happen to be sailing the skies over your meditation spot.

    Tactically, wanting things to always be out of combat and thus not a problem is where you'd want mechanics to be anyway. Paying someone to stand guard while you meditate, or hiding your spell research lab so your new spell creation experiment doesn't explode as a consequence of interruption by nosy busybodies (or the talkative rambunctious and drunk barbarian of the party) - these are tactical considerations for "what ifs"


    ----

    I agree with the problem of how non-psionicists interacted in some editions with psionics. Just calling it Magic didn't really solve the problem either - think of how many classes had no defense vs. stuff like Power Word, Temporal Stasis, or Magic Jar. Heck, even magic missile is totally busted vs. lower level classes - low initiative, instant death, no save, no attack roll. So switching to "magic" is NOT an honest way to "defend" the various non psionicists.

    Instead, the messy 2.5e players option presented some good ideas (slashing their PSPs and getting rid of maintenance cost was NOT one of these good ideas)

    Mental Armor Class/ MAC

    This is a static target difficulty. People with more mental defense have more of it, just like regular AC.
    (kinda like will saves)

    Stackable MAC bonus proficiency slots:
    keep slotting MAC bonuses, and eventually you have a super high mental AC.

    Base bonuses from high intelligence or wisdom: This makes good sense.


    However, there's two problems:
    1. not everything is telepathy
    2. what to do about PSPs/PPs/Mental Points?

    I once suggested a Psionicist should use their PSPs as their hit points on the Astral Plane, since it was the plane of thought. Other classes would have perhaps a variation of "hit dice" based on their class and mental stats. So like, Wisdom/Intelligence would be Dexterity (mental AC) and constitution (Astral HP).

    The breakdown would then be a big debate about who gets the d12, who gets the d10, and who's stuck with the d4 per level? Perhaps having those MAC bonus proficiencies would add higher Astral HP, or you could flip around things like this:

    Astral HP is a demonstration of mental strength/willpower, so reinforced Will would go here
    buying the MAC bonus proficiency would add an extra d4-12 each time you bought one, modified by your Will Power/Wisdom like buying a Hit Die?

    Mental AC might manifest as mental constructs, like Brick Walls or Dodgy Ideas, so

    Non-Psionicists would have Defense Modes purchased for proficiency slots
    Last edited by anthon; 2021-01-02 at 04:26 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #66
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lord Raziere's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Gender
    Male2Female

    Default Re: Fear of Psionics and its Impact over 5 Editions in D&D

    .......honestly? I don't think the problem is with the mechanics of psionics.

    its that psionics has no actual/weird place in most of the published worlds. Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance would like to ask you what psionics is and where is it among their factory-standard fantasy settings. Ravenloft is too gothic/horror themed to have time for psychic stuff. the only two settings that have any real presence or role for psionics in their world in my mind at least, are: Eberron and Dark Sun.

    thing is, in Eberron? its kind of its own thing. sure its built into the setting with the kalashstar, the quori, the riedran continent, xoriat and so on, but you can completely ignore it if you want. Xoriat isn't a threat unless a literal astronomical event happens, the kalashstar are mostly off in their monasteries being jedi meets steven universe, the continent of riedra is oppressive and secretly a quori thing but most players aren't going to care unless the game starts and focuses on it.

    while Dark sun is the only setting I can think where psionics is outright unavoidable because arcane magic drains life energy from the land and caused the whole apocalyptic situation to begin with so having a form of magic that doesn't make the druids cry even more tears while you try to fix this wasteland with its use is pretty vital.

    thing is you can't just get rid of psionics: illithids practically run on it and its one of DnD's iconic foes. like its legit one of the things they actually have copyrighted and thus can't be used by other game designers in their DnD-likes. and since Eberron is still popular enough to get its own books, its not as if you can take out major parts of the setting without causing huge upsets. so there are reasons why psionics is around, you can't really explain these things without it. but at the same time they're not exactly the main focus see? its possible to ignore both of these things and thus while they're there, psionics is.....kind of there but not really and its up to the GM to make sure its there enough for people to care, you get me? because while the assumption of wizard schools and temples to gods is pretty much a given for DnD, I don't really know what the equivalent is for psionics and I don't think anyone assumes to encounter a psion in normal DnD play, as a player or as an encounter. they're just one of the many zany weird things that could possibly happen among others.

    to really get psionics to matter you have to explain what their place is in the world and how they interact with people- and no protecting people from their own little threats created just for them, don't count. because that its still shuffling them into a corner for people to ignore. you need to integrate them into the worlds they inhabit and figure out how they are presence in them. what their goals, hopes, dreams, fears, relationships and so on among everyone else. they have to participate in what everyone else is participating in, or whats the point? but since psionics seems to be optional, I doubt we're going to get that solved any time soon.
    My Fan Fiction:
    To Catch A Mew
    A Kalos based pokemon fan fic. Now up to Chapter 25! I'm also on discord as "raziere".



  7. - Top - End - #67
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Luccan's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    The Old West
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Fear of Psionics and its Impact over 5 Editions in D&D

    To be fair, it seems psionics was always intended to be strange and rare compared to the normal magic of the setting. In 1e less than a handful of the PHB races could be psionic and even then rolling for it made the chance of developing more than a minor talent very, very unlikely. 2e had exactly 1 class for the system and while 3.X significantly increased that number, it also includes more than a few secretive societies (Elans, the Psychic houses, Synads) dedicated to psionics, implying a level of obscurity. So if you want to keep that feeling, you can't make it a big setting focus. Part of the reason Dark Sun is unique is because psionics are so common and that's in part because magic kills the planet, essentially swapping the two systems' places. Also, I looked it up and Faerun does have several psionic organizations. Most seem fairly insular.
    Last edited by Luccan; 2021-01-02 at 06:56 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nifft View Post
    All Roads Lead to Gnome.

    I for one support the Gnoman Empire.
    Avatar by linklele

    Spoiler: Build Contests
    Show

    E6 Iron Chef XVI Shared First Place: Black Wing

    E6 Iron Chef XXI Shared Second Place: The Shadow's Hand


  8. - Top - End - #68
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tanarii's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2015

    Default Re: Fear of Psionics and its Impact over 5 Editions in D&D

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    thing is you can't just get rid of psionics: illithids practically run on it and its one of DnD's iconic foes. like its legit one of the things they actually have copyrighted and thus can't be used by other game designers in their DnD-likes.
    And yet somehow Mind Flayers are in every edition without psionics. And have to revised just like everything else when psionics is bolted on later.

  9. - Top - End - #69
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Anonymouswizard's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    In my library

    Default Re: Fear of Psionics and its Impact over 5 Editions in D&D

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    And yet somehow Mind Flayers are in every edition without psionics. And have to revised just like everything else when psionics is bolted on later.
    I mean, they're generally psionic in the core rolled, it's just that doesn't mean anything beyond 'gets some special abilities and/or spells they might be able to ignore the components for'. And if it's just going to be for monsters poisoning doesn't need any rules beyond that, Illithids are scary because they get this strange 'Mimd Blast' poeer from having brains that can generate and project the energy.

    You can have psionics in the rules without them being a PC option, and they don't tend to need much in the way of rules.

    Depending on the ruleset they might not even be any different rules-wise. I'm Modern AGE psychic powers and magic user the same rules by default, and only differ in terms of what stat you roll to cast and what Abilities you can learn. It works perfectly fine, RAW neither of them require any kind of VSM components anyway, although the game does suggest that if you're running a game with both that one should use the optional 'resist fatigue' casting method instead of the standard Power Points one
    Snazzy avatar (now back! ) by Honest Tiefling.

    RIP Laser-Snail, may you live on in our hearts forever.

    Spoiler: playground quotes
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

  10. - Top - End - #70
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Location
    Area 51

    Default Re: Fear of Psionics and its Impact over 5 Editions in D&D

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    And yet somehow Mind Flayers are in every edition without psionics. And have to revised just like everything else when psionics is bolted on later.

    wut

    Spoiler
    Show


  11. - Top - End - #71
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Location
    Area 51

    Default Re: Fear of Psionics and its Impact over 5 Editions in D&D

    Quote Originally Posted by Luccan View Post
    To be fair, it seems psionics was always intended to be strange and rare compared to the normal magic of the setting. In 1e less than a handful of the PHB races could be psionic and even then rolling for it made the chance of developing more than a minor talent very, very unlikely. 2e had exactly 1 class for the system and while 3.X significantly increased that number, it also includes more than a few secretive societies (Elans, the Psychic houses, Synads) dedicated to psionics, implying a level of obscurity. So if you want to keep that feeling, you can't make it a big setting focus. Part of the reason Dark Sun is unique is because psionics are so common and that's in part because magic kills the planet, essentially swapping the two systems' places. Also, I looked it up and Faerun does have several psionic organizations. Most seem fairly insular.

    I totally agree with the specialness of a thing being important to its functionality. If everyone could fly or teleport it would quickly lose whatever strategic advantage it presents (not to mention that childhood sense of wonder and feeling different, or empowered to make a difference). Meanwhile, some stuff, like fixing a broken limb or busted teeth is universally welcome, so healers exist in almost every RPG in one form or another.

    Weird thought:
    back in the mid 80s, there were probably more psionic shows than magic shows. Practically every Steven King Movie (Tommy Knockers, Firestarter, Carrie, Dead Zone), Star Wars, and Scanners were all psionic themed. There were a handful of magical cartoons (hobbit, last unicorn, flight of dragons). You can go back to Escape from Witch Mountain to see even more psychic stuff. Today you've got a pretty heavy dose of Psionics with stuff like Stranger Things and Mandalorian,

    but while people say Psionics is a flavor of Magic, when i watched shows like Merlin, I got the impression many make Magic a flavor of Psionics. I mean, if your core "magic set" is levitation, mind reading, and telekinesis with no spell books, chants, or gestures,

    don't get mad if people think "Psychic" first.
    Last edited by anthon; 2021-01-02 at 08:54 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #72
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tanarii's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2015

    Default Re: Fear of Psionics and its Impact over 5 Editions in D&D

    Quote Originally Posted by anthon View Post
    wut

    Spoiler
    Show

    AD&D counts as a bolt on.


    ^--Not really I'm just doubling down for entertainment purposes. Good correction.

  13. - Top - End - #73
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Location
    Area 51

    Default Re: Fear of Psionics and its Impact over 5 Editions in D&D

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    AD&D counts as a bolt on.


    ^--Not really I'm just doubling down for entertainment purposes. Good correction.
    Yeah you took that like a Prince. Hats off to you.

    Im old, so for me, i got into AD&D about the same time the Psionicist Handbook was coming out and Dark Sun was becoming a campaign setting. While I was raised on Dragonlance (novels included) my early DMs showed me all the scary cool books, like Banned Deities and Demigods.

    I shall endeavor to get a tally on how many Statted creatures/entities in that Book have Psionics and append this post accordingly.

    Edit: I found 120 Psionic Creature/Entity entries in the Deities and Demigods book from 1980. This does not include the vast number of gods that were specifically immune to psionics, nor the many others that had "Nil" for their psionic abilities.

    it is therefore my conclusion that Psionics were quite Copious in AD&D, and not some foot note in a splat or bolt on until much later.

    The 5e rejection and apprehension of Psionics is the most extreme anti psionic sentiment over 6 generations of editions.
    Last edited by anthon; 2021-01-03 at 03:51 AM.

  14. - Top - End - #74
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tanarii's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2015

    Default Re: Fear of Psionics and its Impact over 5 Editions in D&D

    I mostly played BECMI not AD&D. But it makes sense that the mind Flayers would actually have psionics, since psionics was actually in the PHB.

    I just went and checked, looks like Mind Flayers were originally released at the same time as Psionics in Eldritch Wizardry. Interestingly ... demons were introduced in the same book. And they were (except for Vrocks) psionic as well.

    Edit: looks like Mind Flayers in the Strategic Review #1 only had mind blast.

  15. - Top - End - #75
    Orc in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2013

    Default Re: Fear of Psionics and its Impact over 5 Editions in D&D

    The only real fear of psionics for D&D I have was how the systems were handled. Fluff aside they had poor execution with different systems that at their core are gimmicks to be different for the sake of being different. 3rd edition was a nightmare with the whole manifester level nonsense and power points to keep track of when it could have just followed the normal magic casting system of the edition. While though psionics did have a bit of an easier implementation in 4th edition it again still had the power point and various alterations you can do of their powers. From a DM stand point that was a nightmare to keep track of. Now in 5th edition what psionic classes are released have Psionic Energy dice for the Soul Knife and Psi Warrior.

    Again gimmick system for the sake of being different when they are not needed. The only way I have seen a psionic class done right to fit the edition's magic system was what Pathfinder did with the Occult classes. Granted it is a different game but frankly Pathfinder is 3.75 D&D and the mechanics of the classes were made to fit with 3rd edition's magic system with some very minor alterations. For 5th edition system consistency is at least seen with the Aberrant Mind option of the Sorcerer but really makes me wonder if that same design philosophy will be followed when other psionic classes are released.

  16. - Top - End - #76
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Segev's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location

    Default Re: Fear of Psionics and its Impact over 5 Editions in D&D

    Quote Originally Posted by GentlemanVoodoo View Post
    The only real fear of psionics for D&D I have was how the systems were handled. Fluff aside they had poor execution with different systems that at their core are gimmicks to be different for the sake of being different. 3rd edition was a nightmare with the whole manifester level nonsense and power points to keep track of when it could have just followed the normal magic casting system of the edition. While though psionics did have a bit of an easier implementation in 4th edition it again still had the power point and various alterations you can do of their powers. From a DM stand point that was a nightmare to keep track of. Now in 5th edition what psionic classes are released have Psionic Energy dice for the Soul Knife and Psi Warrior.

    Again gimmick system for the sake of being different when they are not needed. The only way I have seen a psionic class done right to fit the edition's magic system was what Pathfinder did with the Occult classes. Granted it is a different game but frankly Pathfinder is 3.75 D&D and the mechanics of the classes were made to fit with 3rd edition's magic system with some very minor alterations. For 5th edition system consistency is at least seen with the Aberrant Mind option of the Sorcerer but really makes me wonder if that same design philosophy will be followed when other psionic classes are released.
    I strongly disagree. Psionics is different for the same reason that tome of battle doesn’t use maneuver slots and exactly mimic spellcasting. 3.5 was actually pretty solid, and DSP did some great things making it even better in Pathfinder.

    Psychic magic from Pathfinder, by contrast, winds up feeling like it’s just a poor cousin to normal magic due to using the magic system that divine and arcane magic share, despite the occult adventures classes otherwise dripping with flavor (if not good and balanced design).

  17. - Top - End - #77
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tanarii's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2015

    Default Re: Fear of Psionics and its Impact over 5 Editions in D&D

    Quote Originally Posted by GentlemanVoodoo View Post
    For 5th edition system consistency is at least seen with the Aberrant Mind option of the Sorcerer but really makes me wonder if that same design philosophy will be followed when other psionic classes are released.
    I haven't seen the Aberrant Mind, but utilizing the existing Magic system with subclasses is definitely the way they should go. And avoiding new mechanics just for the sake of being different. Which is the feedback I've provided on psionic UA I've responded to.

  18. - Top - End - #78
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Anonymouswizard's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    In my library

    Default Re: Fear of Psionics and its Impact over 5 Editions in D&D

    Well, the Psychic Warrior and Soulknife use an altered version of the Superiority Die mechanic. So that fits in with not being different for difference's sake.

    And the Aberrant Mind Sorcerer is cool. But you know, it's not a real psychic, more a supermarket with a few psychic trucks. Doesn't even get any psionic dice.
    Snazzy avatar (now back! ) by Honest Tiefling.

    RIP Laser-Snail, may you live on in our hearts forever.

    Spoiler: playground quotes
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

  19. - Top - End - #79
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Fear of Psionics and its Impact over 5 Editions in D&D

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    Well, the Psychic Warrior and Soulknife use an altered version of the Superiority Die mechanic. So that fits in with not being different for difference's sake.

    And the Aberrant Mind Sorcerer is cool. But you know, it's not a real psychic, more a supermarket with a few psychic trucks. Doesn't even get any psionic dice.
    Psionic dice are seriously overrated. You cant even threaten them into compliance because they know that youre bluffing about the HCL bath unlucky dice get.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  20. - Top - End - #80
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2020
    Location
    Area 51

    Default Re: Fear of Psionics and its Impact over 5 Editions in D&D

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    I strongly disagree. Psionics is different for the same reason that tome of battle doesn’t use maneuver slots and exactly mimic spellcasting. 3.5 was actually pretty solid, and DSP did some great things making it even better in Pathfinder.

    Psychic magic from Pathfinder, by contrast, winds up feeling like it’s just a poor cousin to normal magic due to using the magic system that divine and arcane magic share, despite the occult adventures classes otherwise dripping with flavor (if not good and balanced design).
    i think i saw some decent psionic rules in OGL Horror, and there was some descent stuff in Forbidden Kingdoms Master Codex, both for the D20 system. Monte Cook's Call of Cthulhu had a tiny smattering of Psionics, with an idea that really could have been developed. I think OGL had the workings of a Pyrokinesis skill.

    The problem with 5e in terms of opening up new ideas for splats is the lockdown on new skills.
    By not having "new skills" in splat books have much (if any) precedent, there's less mechanical toys to play with for shaping new concepts.

    Likewise, because of the concentration mechanic, lack of solid enchantment rules, and ubiquity of magic among the classes (my Celestial Warlock Paladin vs. your Hexblade Cleric of War, etc.), along with the purge of so very many magic items or nerfing thereof,

    there's this stilted template contraption of hoops that turns all new classes into Subclasses, and by granting the core class abilities of Class A, they are given only a Sample pack of Defining abilities in Subclass B.

    Thus if Class A is 80% of what defines your class, and only 5-15% of it matches Psionics,

    you will never get more than 25-35% of a Psionicist using the 5e rubric of "make it a monk/fighter/mage and then add 2d4 abilities to flavor it"

    Psionics isn't a flavor.
    Last edited by anthon; 2021-01-03 at 07:46 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #81
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Lord Torath's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Sharangar's Revenge
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Fear of Psionics and its Impact over 5 Editions in D&D

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hall View Post
    Skills and Powers (also known as the "Way of the Psionicist" rules for Dark Sun R&E) were their own kind of mess. While they made psionic powers improve automatically (rolling against a set Mental Armor Class based on the power, with an ever-increasing mental ThAC0), they borked psionic combat to the point where you were better off putting up your psychic defenses and punching the guy in the nose. (emphasis mine)
    Yeah, that's what I said, too. Seika set me straight. Spoiler Alert: Even putting up a defense is a bad move.
    Warhammer 40,000 Campaign Skirmish Game: Warpstrike
    My Spelljammer stuff (including an orbit tracker), 2E AD&D spreadsheet, and Vault of the Drow maps are available in my Dropbox. Feel free to use or not use it as you see fit!
    Thri-Kreen Ranger/Psionicist by me, based off of Rich's A Monster for Every Season

  22. - Top - End - #82
    Librarian in the Playground Moderator
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    San Antonio, Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Fear of Psionics and its Impact over 5 Editions in D&D

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    Yeah, that's what I said, too. Seika set me straight. Spoiler Alert: Even putting up a defense is a bad move.
    They ****ed the math in that so goddamn hard.
    The Cranky Gamer
    *It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
    *Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
    *Two Tales of Tellene, available from DriveThruFiction
    *The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
    Avatar is from local user Mehangel
    Written by Me on DriveThru RPG
    If you need me to address a thread as a moderator, include a link.

  23. - Top - End - #83
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Tanarii's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2015

    Default Re: Fear of Psionics and its Impact over 5 Editions in D&D

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    Yeah, that's what I said, too. Seika set me straight. Spoiler Alert: Even putting up a defense is a bad move.
    If you are a psionic character you must put up a defense. Failure to do so will automatically result in an open mind.

  24. - Top - End - #84
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Millstone85's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Fear of Psionics and its Impact over 5 Editions in D&D

    An idea I had for 5e psionics was to retool V/S/M components.

    Vibrant (V)
    Most disciplines release psychic vibes that even untrained minds can notice. Creatures near the psionic disciple (typically close enough to be involved in combat) get a sudden sense of alertness, for example recoiling or turning around as if something had crept up on them. At the DM's discretion, creatures wholly unfamiliar with psionics might chalk the experience up to their imagination, or develop vague suspicions against the disciple if they are aware of the character's presence. By default, all nearby creatures become aware of the disciple's position.

    Somatized (S)
    A discipline can induce a momentary change in the disciple's appearance. Levitating hair or conspicuous veins are commonly associated with psionics. If the disciple is lightly or heavily obscured, a somatized component does not call this obscurement into question (the disciple's eyes might become one solid color, but they will not glow in the dark).

    Manifest (M)
    Some disciplines must manifest as a construct of light before they can produce any other effect. The most common manifestation is a halo around the disciple's head, sometimes composed of runes or fractal patterns (and here, yes, the character's eyes might glow). Whatever form the discipline takes, the disciple sheds bright light in a 5-foot radius.

    All these are classic ways to signal an active psion to the audience, both in general fiction and in D&D art (Or was it just 4e? Anyway, I liked it). More importantly, this would solve the problem of psionics devaluating the Subtle Spell feature of the sorcerer.

  25. - Top - End - #85
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Anonymouswizard's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    In my library

    Default Re: Fear of Psionics and its Impact over 5 Editions in D&D

    If you're adding components to psionics I'd go for Aural, Visual, and possibly something like Tactile? Going with the different ways the power can be sensed.

    And I'd possibly go with psychic foci as an important part of the system. Not in the sense of 5e's 'use to replace material components' version, but in the sense of relatively common and mundane objects used to help powers. Especially the more divination-based powers, I want psychics finding things using dowsing rods and telling the future with playing cards (and maybe bundles of sticks as well). A wizard needs an object for a spell, a psychic just needs an aid to help them focus.
    Snazzy avatar (now back! ) by Honest Tiefling.

    RIP Laser-Snail, may you live on in our hearts forever.

    Spoiler: playground quotes
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

  26. - Top - End - #86
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Millstone85's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Fear of Psionics and its Impact over 5 Editions in D&D

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    If you're adding components to psionics I'd go for Aural, Visual, and possibly something like Tactile? Going with the different ways the power can be sensed.
    My reason for keeping the V/S/M letters is so these psionic components can easily be applied to spells. Indeed:
    • Several monsters possess the "Spellcasting (Psionics)" trait. Playable gith similarly get racial spells through either "Githyanki Psionics" or "Githzerai Psionics".
    • The various UA articles had several examples of psionic disciplines that let you cast a spell.
    • The way I would design psionic disciplines is as upcastable cantrips, something I think would sufficiently set them apart from arcane/divine spells while avoiding the creation of an entirely separate power system.

    And I'd possibly go with psychic foci as an important part of the system. Not in the sense of 5e's 'use to replace material components' version, but in the sense of relatively common and mundane objects used to help powers. Especially the more divination-based powers, I want psychics finding things using dowsing rods and telling the future with playing cards (and maybe bundles of sticks as well). A wizard needs an object for a spell, a psychic just needs an aid to help them focus.
    I don't like psionics requiring objects. Maaayybe crystals.

  27. - Top - End - #87
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Lord Torath's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Sharangar's Revenge
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Fear of Psionics and its Impact over 5 Editions in D&D

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanarii View Post
    If you are a psionic character you must put up a defense. Failure to do so will automatically result in an open mind.
    Not as written. Maybe you've got some house rules or something to that effect, but no, as written, your mind is closed until you run out of PSPs (Way of the Psionicist from the Revised Dark Sun Setting p7). If you can cite book and page number, though, I'm open to being proven wrong.
    Last edited by Lord Torath; 2021-01-05 at 12:23 PM.
    Warhammer 40,000 Campaign Skirmish Game: Warpstrike
    My Spelljammer stuff (including an orbit tracker), 2E AD&D spreadsheet, and Vault of the Drow maps are available in my Dropbox. Feel free to use or not use it as you see fit!
    Thri-Kreen Ranger/Psionicist by me, based off of Rich's A Monster for Every Season

  28. - Top - End - #88
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Segev's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location

    Default Re: Fear of Psionics and its Impact over 5 Editions in D&D

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Torath View Post
    Not as written. Maybe you've got some house rules or something to that effect, but no, as written, your mind is closed until you run out of PSPs (Way of the Psionicist from the Revised Dark Sun Setting p7). If you can cite book and page number, though, I'm open to being proven wrong.
    I don't have the book on hand at the moment, but I thought I remembered 2e being that all psionic minds are open if not defended, too. That would've been from the Complete Psionic book that has the Psionicist. Maybe it changed between that and Revised Dark Sun? (Or maybe I'm misremembering.)

  29. - Top - End - #89
    Librarian in the Playground Moderator
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    San Antonio, Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Fear of Psionics and its Impact over 5 Editions in D&D

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    I don't have the book on hand at the moment, but I thought I remembered 2e being that all psionic minds are open if not defended, too. That would've been from the Complete Psionic book that has the Psionicist. Maybe it changed between that and Revised Dark Sun? (Or maybe I'm misremembering.)
    In S&P, all minds begin as closed. Non-psychics can be contacted with one successful psychic attack against their MAC; psychic minds need to be depleted of PSPs, first.

    However, the fun part in S&P is closing an open mind. A non-psychic makes a save v. paralyzation (with a -4 if they've been subject to a power). The non-psychic can attempt to close their mind the round after it is opened. A psychic whose been opened can't try to close it for 1d4+1 rounds, AND they have to do it with a Wisdom check at a -3.

    So, a psychic who has been battered open has a far worse chance of actually closing their mind, and can't do it as quickly.

    Gods, that system was so messed up.
    The Cranky Gamer
    *It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude; the appearance of truth within the framework of the game.
    *Picard management tip: Debate honestly. The goal is to arrive at the truth, not at your preconception.
    *Two Tales of Tellene, available from DriveThruFiction
    *The One Deck Engine: Gaming on a budget
    Avatar is from local user Mehangel
    Written by Me on DriveThru RPG
    If you need me to address a thread as a moderator, include a link.

  30. - Top - End - #90
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Lord Torath's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Sharangar's Revenge
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Fear of Psionics and its Impact over 5 Editions in D&D

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    I don't have the book on hand at the moment, but I thought I remembered 2e being that all psionic minds are open if not defended, too. That would've been from the Complete Psionic book that has the Psionicist. Maybe it changed between that and Revised Dark Sun? (Or maybe I'm misremembering.)
    In Core Psionics, (Complete Psionics Handbook version) the Contact power always fails against a psionicist who doesn't want the contact. A careful reading of the rules for psionic combat (p25) says that if you don't use a defense, your opponent still needs three successful hits with a telepathic attack to establish Contact. The defense modes give you a chance to oppose their attack modes, but it doesn't look like they are required.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Complete Psionics Handbook p25
    The text below describes five telepathic assaults, or attack modes, that are used to establish contact with a closed mind. It also describes five telepathic defenses, which can help prevent such attacks from succeeding.
    Plus, if you're out of PSPs (or want to preserve them for other powers), Mind Blank is a defense mode that costs nothing to use.
    Last edited by Lord Torath; 2021-01-05 at 03:22 PM.
    Warhammer 40,000 Campaign Skirmish Game: Warpstrike
    My Spelljammer stuff (including an orbit tracker), 2E AD&D spreadsheet, and Vault of the Drow maps are available in my Dropbox. Feel free to use or not use it as you see fit!
    Thri-Kreen Ranger/Psionicist by me, based off of Rich's A Monster for Every Season

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •