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Thread: Ww84

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    Default Ww84

    It is, after many, many delays, finally out, both in theaters and on HBO. I'm curious to hear what ya'll think of it.

    Spoilery review/rant in spoilers:
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    So, nothing has happened to Diana since WW1. Literally, nothing. Sure, the guy's name is Pine, but you could maybe do something other than that over a guy you knew for maybe a month 70 years ago. The cold war is happening, but Diana doesn't care. Instead we get to watch her mope, and her "ugly" coworker fawn over her. "Ermagerd, you know latin" the woman with a biology degree and three other degrees says, because latin is clearly a language that nobody in higher education can vaguely understand.

    There's not much plot for the first third of the film, because we have to wait until ugly girl loses her glasses, straightens her hair, and goes from being bashed by everyone to universal adoration. Top marks for originality here, chaps, I've never seen THIS plot before.

    The antagonist is Mando, without a helmet. He tries. Bless the poor bastard, but he does try. He just has nothing to work with, because this movie is against setting up anything in advance, choosing instead to narrate motivations to us after the fact. He's not the villain, though. He doesn't even steal, apparently, as we find out that the artifact was originally purchased by him, and it turns out that it was Wonder Woman who stole it. That's right, Wonder Woman is the villain. This is set up by us looking at her childhood, and discovering her willingness to cheat in order to win.

    We then jump to her using a wish to bodyjack some hapless innocent's body for her boyfriend's mind to ride around in. The movie takes the time to acknowledge what they've done, mind you, but it doesn't seem to recognize that, uh, stealing someone's body and then having all the sex with it is maybe a little morally questionable. WW is absolutely not bothered by this.

    She also has, in standard DC fashion, embraced doing a fair bit of property damage, sometimes solely for convenience, not even to save lives. She maintains her anonymity, for instance, by smashing all cameras after the fact with her tiara, which now has the properties of Captain America's shield, after the fact. I guess that's how cameras work?

    Dear BF, having returned, is shocked by the world of 1980, because it has coffee, and then physically removes WW from the driver's seat, because, I guess, his WW1 piloting skills means he is better equipped to drive everything from fighter jets to modern cars to the plot itself. The fighter jet becomes an invisible fighter jet, because making things invisible is now WW's power, which is explained after the fact via a coffee mug. This happens on the 4th of July. Pilot flies invisible jet while explaining that piloting is just about feelings.

    Over the next 24 hours before Christmas, the rest of the plot takes place. She has a fight in which her powers rapidly weaken, revealing that the wish monkey-paws(the movie will actually use this terminology to repeatedly, laboriously explain it to you) your wish, taking whatever it is that you value most. Which, for Diana, is power, of course. This weakening somehow doesn't impact her ability to invent new powers on the fly, like the invisibility thing.

    They teleport back to NY from the middle east between screen cuts while no time passes, and despite everyone only ever getting one wish, former ugly girl gets a second one because screw the rules, the plot needs to happen, and she chooses to be a cat. Take backsies exist for wishes, and so WW offs her beau because she wants power. She then needs to fly to the battle, and can't do so, because she has forgotten that she has a plane, probably on account of it being invisible.

    She remembers that flying is about feelings, and she has feelings. She can fly now.

    She fights the cat, and transforms into a full set of golden armor that she was apparently carrying in the numerous pockets on her original costume, and which has its own backstory, from when Amazonians were all enslaved, which you probably forgot about, because it's never been mentioned before. It was made from the armor of all the other amazonians, which explains why none of them have armor, except when they do. The armor does nothing. The cat knows that her scene has ended, and patiently stops and waits for the remainder of the movie to happen.

    The bad guy has taken over the world, because he is "touching" everyone on earth by talking to them on TV, something that even the movie explains wouldn't work, but then it does. Everyone on earth gets every wish they want granted at the same time, which causes some upsets. Diana is unable to reach him because of some unexplained wind power that has to do with how television works, but she gives a speech, and everyone on earth thoughtfully gives up their wishes, and take backsies rule. Including the antagonist, of course.

    Every consequence is thus undone, sort of, except for all the ones the movie forgot about, like the bad guy still using Marine One as his personal joyride, which seems implausible with no longer brainwashed crew. It's Christmas in DC, with the usual thick layering of white snow and evergreen trees lining the streets of the pastoral scene as exists nowhere in the city, and Diana makes googly eyes at the guy who was bodyjacked, who seems remarkably unperturbed about his entire life having presumably collapsed while he wasn't at work or home for the past six months.
    Last edited by Tyndmyr; 2020-12-28 at 12:33 PM.

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    Default Re: Ww84

    I have heard it described as "The plot of Superman II with the execution of Superman IV".

    Sounds pretty apt.
    Last edited by GloatingSwine; 2020-12-28 at 01:06 PM.

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    Default Re: Ww84

    Worst DCEU movie yet, and that is saying something. This one didn’t even have good humor or action set pieces to make it entertaining.

    The plot made no sense whatsoever, and the rules seemed to be made up (and then forgotten) as they went along.

    I did like Kristen Wiig’s performance, and I really wish the movie had spent more time on her arc.

    Also missed how exactly she cheated in the opening scene, or how it was known. Was it really just using her smaller size to take an alternate path? Because I have to tell you, in most movies that would be shown as a positive...
    Last edited by Talakeal; 2020-12-28 at 01:21 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talakeal View Post
    Also missed how exactly she cheated in the opening scene, or how it was known. Was it really just using her smaller size to take an alternate path? Because I have to tell you, in most movies that would be shown as a positive...
    Yeah. I honestly expected it to be portrayed as positive because of creativity and what not, but I guess she missed a waypoint, so it counts as cheating by whatever the Amazonian rules are. The audience is never shown or explained the rules, so it's most definitely not clear, but her mom stops her before the finish line and claims she cheated.

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    Default Re: Ww84

    I for one enjoyed it. It's not a great film but I did not think it that bad - and it has a few nice homages to previous versions.

    The total dearth of other new films out may well work to WW84's advantage, but I still rate it better than Justice League.

    There is exactly one bonus scene at the end, quite early in the credits (if you see the special guest star entry you are past it) so unless you are interested in the credits (which I try to be for all the hard working people) there is no need to stay to the end.

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    Default Re: Ww84

    I enjoyed it, as well, but I can't disagree that it has quite a few flaws and very strange choices.

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    The weirdest thing about the body surfing stuff is that the morality of it is never brought up. You'd think, especially during the parts where Steve is trying to convince Diana to let him go and rescind her wish, he would bring up the fact that the hapless fellow he's possessing can never return to his own body as long as Steve possesses it as part of his argument on why keeping him alive was wrong. But he doesn't. Nobody does. It's so odd.

    I also felt that entire moral of the story--that you shouldn't take shortcuts to get what you want--is somewhat undercut by the fact that Lord's wish was the only one made with knowledge and intention. Diana's and Barbara's wishes are made by accident, as neither actually believed they would come true. Most everyone else was basically tricked into wishing by Lord. It feels like the real moral of the story is, if someone touches your shoulder and asks, "You really wish for X, don't you?" you should never say "yes."

    Also, I understood why they didn't go that route, but I have to admit I was a little disappointed the movie didn't end with Diana snapping Lord's neck on live TV. (Admit it, that dialogue about how the stone needed to be destroyed to undo its wishes made you think, at least for a moment, they might take that route.)

    That cameo in the credits was great, though.

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    Originally Posted by Tyndmyr
    Spoilery review/rant in spoilers:
    I want to ask if you’re making all this nonsense up, but in my heart I believe that you aren’t.

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    So Diana makes things invisible now, rather than throwing a switch on her jet’s cloaking device?

    And she somehow coopts someone else’s body (who looks exactly like Boyfriend) so Boyfriend’s mind can drive it? But where did Boyfriend’s mind come back from? If she wished his mind back, why can’t she wish his body back too? That seems more convenient for everyone.

    And then she…kills him? But without killing the host body? This is confusing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    I want to ask if you’re making all this nonsense up, but in my heart I believe that you aren’t.

    Spoiler
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    So Diana makes things invisible now, rather than throwing a switch on her jet’s cloaking device?

    And she somehow coopts someone else’s body (who looks exactly like Boyfriend) so Boyfriend’s mind can drive it? But where did Boyfriend’s mind come back from? If she wished his mind back, why can’t she wish his body back too? That seems more convenient for everyone.

    And then she…kills him? But without killing the host body? This is confusing.
    Spoiler: WW Nonsense
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    The wishing stones powers and costs are very vague. Diana traded her powers for her boyfriend to come back, and them the villain steals the power so she couldn't make another wish if she wanted to. But she can still undo the wish, for reasons.


    Her boyfriends “soul” was brought back from “the afterlife” to possess a random guy. He looks different, but is still played by Chris Pine do to cinematic convenience Hot Tub Time Machine style.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    I want to ask if you’re making all this nonsense up, but in my heart I believe that you aren’t.

    Spoiler
    Show
    So Diana makes things invisible now, rather than throwing a switch on her jet’s cloaking device?

    And she somehow coopts someone else’s body (who looks exactly like Boyfriend) so Boyfriend’s mind can drive it? But where did Boyfriend’s mind come back from? If she wished his mind back, why can’t she wish his body back too? That seems more convenient for everyone.

    And then she…kills him? But without killing the host body? This is confusing.
    Spoiler
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    She reveals that since Zeus made her homeland invisible, and she's his daughter, she can make things invisible, too.

    She basically wished to have him back, and the stone brought back his spirit and put it into another guy's body. But Diana only sees Steve, and everyone else sees this other guy; it's sort of a Quantum Leap thing (including a scene with Steve looking at himself in the mirror but seeing someone else).

    But every wish has a price, so Diana starts losing her powers. At the end of the film, she realizes she has to let him go in order to save the world, so she rescinds her wish, and Steve leaps out of the body. I can only assume he starts leaping from host to host, within his own lifetime, hoping that each leap will be the leap home.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    I want to ask if you’re making all this nonsense up, but in my heart I believe that you aren’t.
    Hah, I'm not even half that creative. This whole thing is just...bewilderingly crazy. I can't imagine how the writers settled on this.

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    So Diana makes things invisible now, rather than throwing a switch on her jet’s cloaking device?

    And she somehow coopts someone else’s body (who looks exactly like Boyfriend) so Boyfriend’s mind can drive it? But where did Boyfriend’s mind come back from? If she wished his mind back, why can’t she wish his body back too? That seems more convenient for everyone.

    And then she…kills him? But without killing the host body? This is confusing.
    Spoiler
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    Apparently you can un-monkeys paw yourself by just saying "I renounce my wish" which is told to them by someone who arrives thirty minutes before the movie ends, claims to be the reincarnation of some other dude that isn't explained, has a magical book of lore he hasn't read, but which he knows contains the answer.

    He informs her that the device with latin on it is some ancient prehistoric thing that doomed atlantis and the mayans and what not, and then vanishes from the movie entirely.

    It's never made clear why it was necessary for the wish to borrow someone else's body. Nor anything about how the undoing works.

    The rules for wishes as given are very few, and all of them are broken at least once, and at least once for each its lamented that they can't be broken.

    It's sort of vaguely implied that boyfriend is in some heaven-like place prior to being called back, but he doesn't seem put out at being in the 80s instead. Maybe he goes back there?

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    I watched it with my mother and she liked it. Me?

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    Honestly, this pretty much fits what I know of DC storytelling to a T. the setting is almost boringly wholesome and upbeat, the villain is villainous and represents the desires everyone has deep down, being a basically an avatar of greed through it showing how greed can be destructive to the entire world. Diana is truth and thus saves humanity with it, but only after confronting the truth of what she wanted herself. I haven't seen any other DC films, but this is pretty in line with how DC tell its stories in my experience, its pretty black and white morality and Diana knows she was in the wrong by not renouncing the wish sooner by the end. Cheetara provides a good foil, though to be honest I thought their early interactions were romantic in nature but I guess thats just me.

    I would say its decent at least to me. I'm not going to defend it or anything, those are just my thoughts.
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    I liked it (saw Soul the same day and liked that a lot more though), but wouldn't rate it any higher than fine. Gadot, Pine and Wiig were all great, I had to keep reminding myself Pedro Pascal is capable of better, no standout moments, a lot of story threads that went nowhere (Minerva's story just sort of ended, didn't it? And what was the point of the gold armor other than merchandising?), a fair amount more dodgy CGI than I expected. But fine.

    I'd have liked something to expand on Diana's character more, but as a standalone Wonder Woman movie, sure, I had a good time.

    About the body surfing, we all agreed that was shoved in there only because of the actor's resemblance to Lyle Waggoner. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty confident that's the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Yeah. I honestly expected it to be portrayed as positive because of creativity and what not, but I guess she missed a waypoint, so it counts as cheating by whatever the Amazonian rules are. The audience is never shown or explained the rules, so it's most definitely not clear, but her mom stops her before the finish line and claims she cheated.
    She didn't complete the course, I thought that was pretty clear. It was a horse racing (and archery) portion of a triathalon. She fell off her horse, and that likely was an instant disqualification (she kept looking behind her, and that really wasn't smart but understandable because of her age). She instead bypassed a section of the course and tried to pretend it didn't happen. I used to work for the IronMan Triathalon in Kona and I can tell you they wouldn't hand out Kudos for bypassing sections of the course.
    Last edited by Dire_Flumph; 2020-12-28 at 05:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    Cheetara provides a good foil, though to be honest I thought their early interactions were romantic in nature but I guess thats just me.
    Not just you.
    Last edited by Talakeal; 2020-12-28 at 06:03 PM.
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    I wonder if they didn't originally float some sort of jealousy motivation for their opposition, then ditched it? It would at least make the interactions with Cheetara make a little more sense overall.
    Last edited by Tyndmyr; 2020-12-28 at 07:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    I wonder if they didn't originally float some sort of jealousy motivation for their opposition, then ditched it? It would at least make the interactions with Cheetara make a little more sense overall.
    Yeah, that would make more sense
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    because all of WW and Cheetara's interactions make it look like that WW is going to try out dating her to try and move on from him:
    -meet cute at where they work
    -discussing their love lives at a cafe
    -WW saving her from some drunk dude at night just out of nowhere

    these are pretty romantically coded encounters, but then nope he just comes back because wish stone. guess they didn't want to set off a internet firestorm or whatever.
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    So forgetting her newfound ability to make things invisible, they talk about radar and they could still detect the plane even if they couldn’t see it. So her solution was making the plane invisible (unable to be seen)?!? It was clearly interacting with the clouds that wouldn’t even stop radar!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chen View Post
    So forgetting her newfound ability to make things invisible, they talk about radar and they could still detect the plane even if they couldn’t see it. So her solution was making the plane invisible (unable to be seen)?!? It was clearly interacting with the clouds that wouldn’t even stop radar!!!
    Well, that's can't see because it's dark vs. can't see because of a magical barrier. Different other thing.

    If the Amazon's disappearing barrier just blocked visible light, Themyscira would have been found long before the 2010's

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Flumph View Post
    Well, that's can't see because it's dark vs. can't see because of a magical barrier. Different other thing.

    If the Amazon's disappearing barrier just blocked visible light, Themyscira would have been found long before the 2010's
    Eh, when real world we still have missing data on the bermuda, like ships that was lost since the 1920s being found this year, it doesn't hold up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    Eh, when real world we still have missing data on the bermuda, like ships that was lost since the 1920s being found this year, it doesn't hold up.
    Themyscira is a bit bigger than a ship and above water. If it wasn't protected from radar imaging then yes, it would have been found a lot earlier than the 2010's.

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    But a ship, an Ocean liner, is bigger than a jet.... hell, goat island was a myth for decades.
    Last edited by HolyDraconus; 2020-12-28 at 09:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HolyDraconus View Post
    Eh, when real world we still have missing data on the bermuda, like ships that was lost since the 1920s being found this year, it doesn't hold up.
    The Bermuda Triangle (or anything else about Bermuda and missing ships/planes/vehicles) is basically statistically normal. The only reason it even became notable was because it was one of the most heavily travelled areas in the world for some time, so even though the percent of vehicles that were lost was the same as everywhere else, the actual number seemed large to the layperson.
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    Twas okay. Bit weak in parts, but nothing abysmal. The thematic structure of the movie was there at least.

    Also, the OP rant is kind of all over the place. Max did not "own" anything. Wonderwoman did not steal the stone. The stone was seized in a black market, so it was initially stolen in the first place. And the story makes sense that while what Diana did at the start was clever and resourceful, it also meant she wasn't achieving success through the mean the challenge was meant to be fought. She failed the challenge, and rule bending wasn't okay there.

    The same way that just wishing to get something is not the proper way of getting it. It backfires because you didn't get it properly, and it will cost you. So there was some thematic structure that held up.

    Sad that they never acknowledged the moral dilemma of the poor smuch possessed by Pratt.

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    It could have been a solid B if they'd chopped out 40 minutes and closed several plot holes like Steve knowing how to fly a 1980s jet when he'd only flown 1910s planes before. (That one was easy too - just have the body he was inhabiting be a pilot and make it so that he was able to use that knowledge.)

    That - and they took too long explaining that the wishes came at a terrible price. Maybe I missed it - but his getting things after granting wishes confused me for awhile.

    As it was - it was maybe a D+. It had cool moments, and I still liked the main characters, but the plot and pacing were a mess. (Which is an interesting situation. Usually a messy plot makes me dislike the main characters. I suppose because unlike most messy plots, the MCs didn't ever really hold the idiot ball.)
    Last edited by CharonsHelper; 2020-12-28 at 11:12 PM.

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    I'm getting the sense that this was a real chop job in terms of the writing and scene editing. Just going by what's been said, it feels like there were several rewrites which were never really smoothed together.

    Were the delays only caused by the pandemic, or were there some New Mutants-style reshoots as well?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    I'm getting the sense that this was a real chop job in terms of the writing and scene editing. Just going by what's been said, it feels like there were several rewrites which were never really smoothed together.

    Were the delays only caused by the pandemic, or were there some New Mutants-style reshoots as well?

    Most places say there were plenty of WW84 reshoots.

    It does have a vague story that was cut up and edited and reshot.

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    The Egypt part really stands out.....in DC, zip to Egypt and zip back to DC.....in an hour or so? Plus the whole go to Egypt...and, er, find the bad guy on a random road in seconds?

    And there is way too much focus on the whole D plot of "every man is an anti woman monster".

    And the not Trump villain? Sure, guess all the Trump haters thought it was a great accurate character? And the 'great' Trump wall bit?

    And the movie just.....sort of ends? Everyone world wide un-wishes? But there is still worldwide devastation?
    Last edited by Spiderswims; 2020-12-29 at 01:05 AM.

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    It's just too bad that they cut the original end credit scene out, where WW wakes up and says "that's it, no more gin and tonics before bed."
    "Like the old proverb says, if one sees something not right, one must draw out his sword to intervene"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Yeah. I honestly expected it to be portrayed as positive because of creativity and what not, but I guess she missed a waypoint, so it counts as cheating by whatever the Amazonian rules are. The audience is never shown or explained the rules, so it's most definitely not clear, but her mom stops her before the finish line and claims she cheated.
    Having not seen the movie I cant say for sure but just because her mom said she cheated doesnt make it so. From the original movie, we have seen numerous times that mom will go to any length to deny Diana her birthright.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikelaC1 View Post
    Having not seen the movie I cant say for sure but just because her mom said she cheated doesnt make it so. From the original movie, we have seen numerous times that mom will go to any length to deny Diana her birthright.
    No - kid Diana totally cheated.

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    Default Re: Ww84

    I was actually planning on watching this movie before it came to Redbox, because the first WW movie was good and I trusted the director/team to make another good movie again. This from someone who hasn't even gotten around to watching Infinity War yet, or Aquaman.

    I've seen enough reviews at this point to know that I'm not going to bother with it now.
    :(

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikelaC1 View Post
    Having not seen the movie I cant say for sure but just because her mom said she cheated doesnt make it so. From the original movie, we have seen numerous times that mom will go to any length to deny Diana her birthright.
    First of all, it's not Diana's mom who stopped her and said she cheated. It was her trainer.

    And she did cheat. She skipped a step in the relay race. No race with position markers will ever accept a winner that skipped one of the marker.

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