Ww84

[Talakeal]

First of all, it's not Diana's mom who stopped her and said she cheated. It was her trainer.

And she did cheat. She skipped a step in the relay race. No race with position markers will ever accept a winner that skipped one of the marker.

The thing is, if she missed one of her markers, is it really "cheating" or just not being eligible to finish the race?

[Dire_Flumph]

The thing is, if she missed one of her markers, is it really "cheating" or just not being eligible to finish the race?

The latter. Cheating is pretending it didn't happen and trying to finish anyway and that's what she did.

[Talakeal]

The latter. Cheating is pretending it didn't happen and trying to finish anyway and that's what she did.

So, in essence, she is throwing a child to the ground and calling them a cheater for what, as far as she knows, could very well be an honest mistake?

[Cikomyr2]

So, in essence, she is throwing a child to the ground and calling them a cheater for what, as far as she knows, could very well be an honest mistake?

No. Because she didn't just merely missed one. She skipped part of the race. She didn't ran as much as the other competitors. It's outright cheating in a *race*

[Talakeal]

No. Because she didn't just merely missed one. She skipped part of the race. She didn't ran as much as the other competitors. It's outright cheating in a *race*

Two problems though:

1: Did they *know* that she skipped part of the race?
2: The conversation sounds like Diana sure thinks she is still eligible to win, and her trainer never says anything to dissuade her of this notion. Hell, why throw her to the ground and mess up her shot at all if she was ineligible to win?

[Dire_Flumph]

Two problems though:

1: Did they *know* that she skipped part of the race?
2: The conversation sounds like Diana sure thinks she is still eligible to win, and her trainer never says anything to dissuade her of this notion. Hell, why throw her to the ground and mess up her shot at all if she was ineligible to win?

1: "You took the short path. You cheated Diana. That is the truth. That is the only truth, and truth is all there is."

I'm not sure how much clearer you want.

2: Diana thinks she's still eligible to win because she's a child and that is literally all that matters to her. The fact that she cheated and bypassed a section of the track is irrelevant to her because in her mind she deserves to win because she's better than everyone else. She was taken out of the race forcefully because she had refused to admit on her own that she was disqualified.

If there's anything that's actually relevant in this scene to the rest of the movie it would be the danger in taking shortcuts.

[Talakeal]

Eh, just seems like a lot of assumption and overreaction for someone who isnt eligible to win anyway. But I don't know why I care so much, it was probably the least confusing part of the whole movie.


Did anyone else have problems with the quality of the streaming? My picture was incredibly grainy and had to pause to buffer every few minutes, which isnt a problem I have had with other streaming services.

[JadedDM]

I can't stop thinking about the mechanics of wishing.

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Early in the film, one of the scientists jokingly touches the stone and wishes for coffee. He is pleasantly surprised when he gets one. Presumably, he drinks it all. So my question is...can he renounce his wish? He already drank it. How does that work?

[Willie the Duck]

Two problems though:
1: Did they *know* that she skipped part of the race?
2: The conversation sounds like Diana sure thinks she is still eligible to win, and her trainer never says anything to dissuade her of this notion. Hell, why throw her to the ground and mess up her shot at all if she was ineligible to win?

Eh, just seems like a lot of assumption and overreaction for someone who isnt eligible to win anyway. But I don't know why I care so much, it was probably the least confusing part of the whole movie.

We know she cheatedbecause someone in a position to make that declaration said so onscreen. It probably bothers you because that's how it was shown -- Diana continuing to race and then *wham* physically stopped and then she and us the audience are told that she'd been cheating (making us retroactively reframe what we just saw). (Unless I missed it, haven't rewatched to check), there wasn't the setup where the relay markers were pre-explained so that when you see her head down the shortcut, you recognize, 'oh, hey, she's not supposed to be doing this.' Instead there's the mental whiplash of:
movie-"you cheated"
your brain-"no she didn'... oh, I guess she did."
Mind you, from a storytelling perspective, it's rather important that she was cheating, as it sets up the main theme of the movie -- can't cheat/take the shortcut-- but they sure could have set it up better.

[Tyndmyr]

Well, that's can't see because it's dark vs. can't see because of a magical barrier. Different other thing.

If the Amazon's disappearing barrier just blocked visible light, Themyscira would have been found long before the 2010's

It got found by the Germans in WW1. And then I guess also again by Steppenwulf? I don't really know what those have in common, but the former at least doesn't seem amazingly stealthy.

I'm mostly okay with handwaving Themyscira because backstory and whatever, but, like with Wakanda, it probably doesn't do to dwell on those plot aspects, because it'll bring up odd questions.

Also, the OP rant is kind of all over the place. Max did not "own" anything. Wonderwoman did not steal the stone. The stone was seized in a black market, so it was initially stolen in the first place.

In her investigation, she eventually turns up that Max's name was on the box, it was apparently being shipped to him before being somehow stolen from the black market. Who is stealing and why doesn't seem very clear, but those people don't appear to work for Max.

This might also be a casualty of editing, perhaps there was a subplot there that got cut. As it is, the theft functions only as a way to involve WW, it doesn't seem to be fleshed out beyond that.

Were the delays only caused by the pandemic, or were there some New Mutants-style reshoots as well?

There's at least speculation of reshoots and re-edits, though certainly the pandemic was at least partially to blame. I'm not sure precisely how much responsibility to attribute to each cause.

Having not seen the movie I cant say for sure but just because her mom said she cheated doesnt make it so. From the original movie, we have seen numerous times that mom will go to any length to deny Diana her birthright.

That's certainly true, though it would only make the thematic choices even more muddled. If she was in fact not cheating, then her eventual character growth should be something related to that, perhaps realizing that forging a new path is right and proper, even if it means avoiding tradition. Sadly, nothing like that's in the finale, and there isn't even really any character growth.

I think they meant to portray it as cheating, but they didn't set it up for the audience to understand this while watching her actions. We know she's doing *something* but they don't even bother to describe the nature of the competition before the scene starts, let alone set rules or stakes. Given that it's a fairly isolated culture with some unusual features, one can interpret it multiple ways until that point, and even then it might be confusing if you don't trust the arbitrary authority figure.

[CharonsHelper]

I'm mostly okay with handwaving Themyscira because backstory and whatever, but, like with Wakanda, it probably doesn't do to dwell on those plot aspects, because it'll bring up odd questions.

I will say, Themyscira makes a heck of a lot more sense than Wakanda. At least it has magic protecting it rather than somehow independently creating the best technology EVAR because of their magic metal, when technology is integrally tied into trading of ideas etc. while they are largely isolationist. Themyscira actually suffers from their isolation near the beginning of the first Wonder Woman movie. Their warriors are badasses, but a lot of them still died to WWI era guns.

Plus Wakanda does somewhat interact with the rest of the world - yet somehow everyone around is too stupid to realize that they are super advanced.

[HolyDraconus]

I will say, Themyscira makes a heck of a lot more sense than Wakanda. At least it has magic protecting it rather than somehow independently creating the best technology EVAR because of their magic metal, when technology is integrally tied into trading of ideas etc. while they are largely isolationist. Themyscira actually suffers from their isolation near the beginning of the first Wonder Woman movie. Their warriors are badasses, but a lot of them still died to WWI era guns.

Plus Wakanda does somewhat interact with the rest of the world - yet somehow everyone around is too stupid to realize that they are super advanced.

In defense of Wakanda, while the rest of the globe was hard at work on warring, they was trying to better their people. When a nation is completely directed to the betterment of its people its not terribly far fetched. Sure, a lot of modern advances today is the results of war, but that doesn't mean they all have to be.

[Keltest]

In defense of Wakanda, while the rest of the globe was hard at work on warring, they was trying to better their people. When a nation is completely directed to the betterment of its people its not terribly far fetched. Sure, a lot of modern advances today is the results of war, but that doesn't mean they all have to be.

They say that necessity is the mother of innovation, and while war is certainly a necessity, its not the only one.

[Julian84]

So I feel some of OP's rant is a bit hyperbolic and unfair I'd say this film is pretty comparable to the first WW, though lacking in action and a cohesive 1st and 2nd acts. It's certainly not as messy, unfocused, and all over the place as Suicide Squad was.

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The Themyscira Summer Games segment could have been cut entirely. It's visually interesting but it is way too much time spent establishing a fairly elemental moral, especially for the heroine with the Lasso of Truth.

The mall fight should have been recut to hold the cheese and focus more on the plot relevance of the story beat, because this is really our inciting incident: The dreamstone is knocked off its path to Max and finds its way instead to Diana and Barbara.

I completely thought for a while that [Diana x Barbara] was going to be a real ship in this movie, I'd been thinking that since the trailers. As someone who has been in a romantic relationship with someone who did not have the same financial or material background as myself, that alone was the basis for some tension and resentment. I certainly went into this movie willing to accept that Barbara's inferiority complex would introduce a toxic element into a romance with Diana, especially if Diana is pining for an "uncomplicated" romance with her sort of boyfriend who died 70 years ago.

I very much agree that the knowledge of the Dreamstone needed to be a lot more explicit from the beginning for both Diana and Barbara. Diana making a deliberate wish on the Dreamstone for Steve to return would be fine because it shows she's flawed and human. It also creates a villain she has a personal stake with, as Barbara decides she wants to have what Diana has so she won't ever be in the position to be vulnerable, jilted, and heartbroken. Bam, instant motivation.

I liked Pedro Pascal, I liked his Maxwell Lord. No complaints there.

What is confusing to me is why the Dreamstone had twists on Diana's wish. The first is by placing the soul of Steve into the body of another person which is really, really squicky when you begin to think about it, and becomes a very unheroic flaw for Diana as she totally accepts this. I figure this chalks up to Hollywood values dissonance, though. Then her powers are waning. If they wanted both of these, my thought was have Diana's powers failing be attributed to Barbara's wish: She's literally taking what Diana has. Have this keep going until the climax in the 3rd act and you have a very vulnerable Diana and it gives a lot more emphasis to the lasso's importance and the choices of the other characters to renounce their wishes is still rewarding because it relies on Diana's ability to be a good person and hold the moral high ground with a little help from the lasso.

Oh and she realizes that she needs to let go of Steve because the situation is squicky. Or, you know, if he came back as just Steve maybe just have her realize she can't hold onto him while trying to get everyone else to give up what they want.

The whole Egypt segment... Was probably a Grant Morrison script holdover and could have been done literally anywhere with oil. It was pretty forgettable in the long run.

Oh and for the folks who are wondering why Diana wasn't able to get over Steve Trevor in 70 years... I mean, she's shown to be basically immortal? If he was her first real love and was lost in a traumatic and painful way, that'll stay with you for a while. Maybe she processes trauma at a slower rate than normal people do?

[Giggling Ghast]

I heard a joke from a lady on Twitter that WW84 was a feminist film in that it inspired her to make less crappy movies.

If there's anything that's actually relevant in this scene to the rest of the movie it would be the danger in taking shortcuts.

I’m a little fuzzy on the definition of shortcuts. Say I was paralyzed from the neck down - how is it a shortcut to wish that I could walk again when the only path to doing so is through a wish?

[Traab]

I heard a joke from a lady on Twitter that WW84 was a feminist film in that it inspired her to make less crappy movies.



I’m a little fuzzy on the definition of shortcuts. Say I was paralyzed from the neck down - how is it a shortcut to wish that I could walk again when the only path to doing so is through a wish?

If the doctor told you you would be regaining full use of your body with hard work then yes, that would be a shortcut. No not every wish is going to fit neatly into the category of a shortcut, but the general ones would. "I want to be rich, i want to be famous, i want to be skilled" etc etc etc. All things you could attain, at least technically, through hard work and earning it. So getting it through a wish would be a shortcut. Im sure out of the billions of wishes out there, there are plenty that wouldnt be considered a shortcut, but its a freaking action flick, dont expect it to make 100% sense and cover every possible angle everyone examining it can think of. What you need to do is determine if its at least fridge logic worthy. Meaning at the time you watched it did you accept it? Then walk to the fridge to get a drink and go "hey wait a minute... what about xyz?" From what it sounds like, there are plenty of parts that fail the fridge logic aspect in this film though.

[Kitten Champion]

If the doctor told you you would be regaining full use of your body with hard work then yes, that would be a shortcut. No not every wish is going to fit neatly into the category of a shortcut, but the general ones would. "I want to be rich, i want to be famous, i want to be skilled" etc etc etc. All things you could attain, at least technically, through hard work and earning it. So getting it through a wish would be a shortcut. Im sure out of the billions of wishes out there, there are plenty that wouldnt be considered a shortcut, but its a freaking action flick, dont expect it to make 100% sense and cover every possible angle everyone examining it can think of. What you need to do is determine if its at least fridge logic worthy. Meaning at the time you watched it did you accept it? Then walk to the fridge to get a drink and go "hey wait a minute... what about xyz?" From what it sounds like, there are plenty of parts that fail the fridge logic aspect in this film though.

Frankly, in a world such as that of DC comics, which is defined by marvellous world-reshaping superpowers that characters are either born with or receive as fantastical gifts from others, that rings pretty hollow.

[Giggling Ghast]

The moral of the story is, unless you were born with divine powers like Wonder Woman, you don't deserve them, you cheating bastard.

[Saintheart]

The moral of the story is, unless you were born with divine powers like Wonder Woman, you don't deserve them, you cheating bastard.

Even if you worked hard to get them and didn't take any shortcuts in doing so?

[Peelee]

Watching it as I speak.

Spoiler: The intro

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OK, it's pretty blatant that she lost the race. They were supposed to shoot arrows through various targets. Because she fell off the horse and dropped her bow, she didn't hit one of the targets. Frankly, the worst thing about that scene was that the older woman knew that she took a shortcut. I don't know how she got that knowledge, but apparently she did. In any event, even without the shortcut, Diana didn't hit all the targets and should have been disqualified. It's very clear as shown.

Spoiler: Captain America's shield

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It's already ridiculous that Captain America can do that with his shield, so why should I be particularly bothered when Wonder Woman, who is more magically powerful/capable than Captain America, can do that with her tiara? Frankly, I think it's stupid when Cap does it and it's stupid when WW does it, but if anyone accepts that Cap can do it, they shouldn't have a problem with WW doing it IMO.

[HolyDraconus]

Watching it as I speak.

Spoiler: The intro

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OK, it's pretty blatant that she lost the race. They were supposed to shoot arrows through various targets. Because she fell off the horse and dropped her bow, she didn't hit one of the targets. Frankly, the worst thing about that scene was that the older woman knew that she took a shortcut. I don't know how she got that knowledge, but apparently she did. In any event, even without the shortcut, Diana didn't hit all the targets and should have been disqualified. It's very clear as shown.

As to that

Spoiler: I guess for those that haven't seen it.

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It was shown that each time they hit the target it shoots up a flare, which then is seen and the amazon for that flare signals for the pennant to be lowered. When she cheated, it was realized because everyone else was still hitting their flares while she did not. To suddenly show up at the end of the race and try to win it when its clear that she failed... eh.

The movie has a lot of issues... I wont give it that one.

[Peelee]

As to that

Spoiler: I guess for those that haven't seen it.

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It was shown that each time they hit the target it shoots up a flare, which then is seen and the amazon for that flare signals for the pennant to be lowered. When she cheated, it was realized because everyone else was still hitting their flares while she did not. To suddenly show up at the end of the race and try to win it when its clear that she failed... eh.

The movie has a lot of issues... I wont give it that one.

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Fair. Though it is possible that she just dropped her bow without being unseated, but yeah, it doesn't bother me enough to complain about it at all. I wouldn't have given it a second thought if it hadn't been for the discussion in this thread before I saw it.

Also, I liked her line "I'll stick with the one I don't have." And I'm liking Mando in this so far. The hair is so cheesy 80's.

[Dr.Samurai]

I did not have high expectations going into this because I did not think the first Wonder Woman was much more than "probably the best DC movie to date" at the time. I think for that it was overrated in general.

But this sequel is pretty bad. Which is unfortunate, because there were some good elements that had potential.

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The race at the start of the movie is completely unnecessary. We already know that Diana is stronger than all the Amazons, so there is no need to see her as a child beating everyone else. It only serves to set up the moral of the story. The execution of this is pretty poor (as it is not clearly obvious that Diana is aware she is cheating). It is obvious to the audience because the film shows us that she missed a waypoint marker, but it isn't clear what the rules are and if what she does constitutes as obviously cheating *to Diana*. Secondly, the moral that she learns "all we have is the truth and that is all that matters" is so loosely connected to the plot of the movie that it doesn't really seem worth the screen time this race took up. Any normal human can struggle with the choice Diana had to make and come up with the fortitude to make the right choice in the end. We don't need to be told what the right thing to do is at the start of the movie.

That said, the dilemma Diana finds herself in with the Dreamstone and Steve is very good. In a better movie, this would have been great, as Wonder Woman's powers and abilities cannot "defeat" this situation, and it really puts her in a struggle we can all understand and force her to make a sacrifice in order to do the right thing and be a hero. In this movie, it was just sort of bizarre that Steve returns into someone else's body (wtf?) and also Diana starts losing her powers (double wammy!). I liked that she struggled with this (probably my favorite beat of this movie), but something was missing. I would have liked to see her make the conscious effort to continue on without her powers and try to beat Maxwell Lord and not be able to, and sacrifice her life with Steven in order to regain her powers to save the world. Something like that.

Speaking of Maxwell Lord, the villains in this movie suck. I hate loser villains. We've seen that portrayal of Barbara Minerva a million times at this point. It's a credit to Kristin Wiig that even though this is a type of character I can't stand, I still found her somewhat compelling and interesting. I wanted to see what Barbara was going to do next. Her transformation into Cheetah and that fight at the end were absolutely awful though. Dimly-lit CGI battle... no thanks.

Maxwell Lord is a sleezy car salesman-type who somehow knows about the Dreamstone. It is unclear (or at least I don't recall) how he ever knew about it or, given that he has no money, he orchestrated its theft. But he's clearly banking on obtaining this magical artifact to change things around. Maxwell is the worst sort of schemer; petty, vindictive, and desperate. Again, I don't like these types of villains and don't find them interesting. The powers he obtains by becoming the Dreamstone do make sense, and yet I was confused at first how it worked. The Dreamstone grants a wish but takes something from you (I guess). So when he becomes the Dreamstone, it was a little confusing to me because we are seeing that interaction take place in a more contractual sense, where Maxwell says out loud what he will take and makes it happen. I got the impression that someone with more savvy and forward thinking could utilize the powers of the Dreamstone in a much more effective and impactful way, and so Maxwell Lord was just a nonstop disappointment as he wished his way into rapidly-induced health issues and desperately tried to figure out how to grant mass wishes to steal... life forces... or something.

At the point that Steve was trying on outfits, I realized we had been watching the movie for some time and turned to my partner and said "can you believe this is a superhero movie?" seeing as the only superhero stuff going on had happened like 40 minutes before in the mall. Which, by the way, was a pretty cheesy scene and amounted to little more than Wonder Woman repeatedly leaping with her lasso from one floor to another. The action was repetitive and disappointing and the tone was a little too campy for me. The tiara should have been left out IMO as it just looks cheesy to me but I understand the want to include her full suite of powers or equipment. Patty Jenkins absolutely loves displaying Wonder Woman in midair and slow motion, and the movie can do with less of these display shots throughout it. Less slow motion in general would be good because she doesn't utilize it in a way that enhances the scenes. Same with Wonder Woman sliding around on her greaves; it was great when she first did it in that village fight scene in the first movie. But it doesn't mean it's always a good idea to do or that it looks good all the time.

With regards to the music... I'm sure this is a me thing but when I first hear a moving piece of music in a movie, that scene and the emotions in it stick with me. In the movie Sunshine (spoilers ahead) Capa is, as far as he knows, the only crew member still alive on the ship and makes the no-turning-back decision to blow the airlock and expose the ship to the vacuum of space with no way to repair it. He has been having nightmares each night about falling into the sun, and now, in order to save the world, he must leap through space onto the payload, which is hurtling into the sun. The song playing during the scene where Capa releases the payload and then makes the jump is John Murphy's Adagio in D Minor, and it is absolutely amazing. It evokes bravery, responsibility/duty, sacrifice and I've watched it many times since seeing it the first time.

They play this song when Diana abruptly learns how to fly after revoking her wish. I wanted to like the scene, as she comments earlier about Steve and flying and that is what always stuck with her. But it just didn't make sense for me in the movie. She had just received her powers, so it was weird that it happened right then all of a sudden. I didn't know what she was feeling except maybe pain at losing Steve, and perhaps anger at Maxwell Lord. So it's weird that this results in learning how to fly. Coupled with the song and my attaching it to the scene in Sunshine, and this scene in WW84 really didn't work for me.

Similarly, the song Beautiful Lie plays in BvS when we see young Bruce Wayne walking from the theater with his parents before Joe Chill arrives and kills them. This was a good scene in an otherwise pretty bad movie that worked really well. I knew what was about to happen, but the song and the slow-motion sequence worked well to still build up to a scene we've seen a million times. I actually found myself thinking through it "Young Clark is probably helping someone right now and learning a life lesson about humility and community from Pa Kent" and "Diana is probably leading her team of amazons in training to another victory in war games against the adult trainers". Meanwhile Bruce is about to come face to face with powerlessness, loss, suffering and agony, terrifying fear, etc. Something about the scene seemed very formative to me; Bruce Wayne, as a kid, has come up against the most terrifying moment of his life, and has lost everything dear to him, and will grow up to be a man that knows no fear and is willing to battle super powerful aliens and monsters to save people, because he has already faced his greatest fear/trauma.

They play Beautiful Lie when Diana is speaking to the world through Maxwell/Lasso of Truth and entreating them to revoke their wishes. Again, it just doesn't seem to fit for me. I guess the title seems to fit with the notion that the wishes being granted are "beautiful lies", but that doesn't mean the song works there lol. Again, probably just me, but after the disappointing Cheetah fight, I was disappointed that Wonder Woman just had to convince everyone to take back their wishes. And then Max running off to save his kid seemed off too, like... is he going to get away with practically causing Armageddon? Because he reconciled with his son?

Overall... someone else needs to write Wonder Woman movies going forward. We need better villains and plots and we need more Wonder Woman. This movie really didn't tell us much about her. In fact, she seems kind of stuck up in the first part of the movie before Steve arrives. She isn't even that warm to Barbara when they eat out together, mostly just trying to explain that she doesn't have it as good as Barbara thinks. It's enough to make you roll your eyes through the back of your head. We don't even know that the truth is important to Diana, we only know that she was told this when she was a little girl, and then she tells everyone else at the end of the movie. We need more Diana/WW in the next movie. We need to get to know her better. Barbara, Maxwell, and Steven seemed to have more screentime/development than Diana, which is a shame.

Ok, that's my thoughts.

[BloodSquirrel]

Reposting what I said elsewhere:

I'd love to hear the behind-the-scenes story of how this one happened. I've heard that there were a lot of re-shoots after test audiences saw the original cut, and it certainly feels like it. Just like a lot of DCEU films, this one is completely unfocused, morally and tonally confused, and full of bizarre choices that should have been cut out as soon as an editor gave the script a once-over.

Like... did we really need so many scenes of Caveman Steve staring in wonder at the advanced technology of the 1980s? Or screwing around with his wardrobe? What was the point of the golden armor? You could have taken it completely out of the movie and nothing would have changed. Meanwhile, Diana feels like a neglected side character in her own movie. She comes across as childish and selfish for having to have Steve beat her over the head with the right thing to do.

Oh yeah, and why did Steve have to come back in another man's body? It's completely inconsistent with how the rest of the wishes work, and adds a really creepy edge to Steve and Diana's romance. And there was no reason for it. At all. Not even from a narrative perspective. It's a completely baffling choice.

Far from being woke, as a lot of people feared, this movie's message feels almost Randian, except without Ayn Rand's trademark subtlety. Even as a fan of Atlas Shrugged, the message in WW84 comes off as a kind of finger-waving at the audience that's completely inappropriate in a Wonder Woman movie. The movie ends with the audience being directly lectured by Diana in a way that would make John Gault blush.

There's probably a reason why ultra-didactic writers like Rand or Heinlein don't translate well to the silver screen, and it's probably because in order to get away with lecturing your audience you actually have to have something more interesting and complex to say than "Don't wish for more nuclear weapons", and there isn't time for that stuff in a superhero action movie.

I can't stress enough here how much it would have wrecked this movie's message to have a single character decide to use his/her wish responsibly. You'd think somebody, somewhere in the world would wish for, I don't know, a cure for cancer. Or for all of those nuclear bombs that are about to destroy the world to disappear.

And, yeah, the special effects are really, really bad. Half of the scenes of Diana jumping/flying look like somebody was dangling an action figure on a string, and her lasso effects looked like something out of Who Framed Roger Rabbit?.

It's not the worst DCEU movie by a longshot, but it might just be one of the most disappointing.

EDIT: Random question: I'm not sure what the timeline here is supposed to be, but does anyone else wonder if Bruce Wayne wished for his parents to come back to life?

[Peelee]

EDIT: Random question: I'm not sure what the timeline here is supposed to be, but does anyone else wonder if Bruce Wayne wished for his parents to come back to life?

Ya know, I was getting ready to defend this against all the hate because while it hasn't been great, it hasn't been bad. Pretty solidly mediocre. But then I got to that scene and it nosedived hard.

Spoiler: Also...

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C'mon, you know there would have been at least one person in New York City Gotham that would have been like "i wish YOU'D SHADDAP!"

ETA: The ending saved it, but then, I'm a sucker for that kind of ending.

[HolyDraconus]

The hangups i have is why is there hesitation to

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return a dude to the afterlife while hes body jacking somone else. As someone said that i agreed with, if Superman did this crap, or Hal Jordan, it would be so wrong as to be bashed into oblivion, regardless of the fact that the body gets its mind back. But because its WW it should be overlooked???

and no amount of hand waving changes the fact that at the end of the movie, two nations are at war, another nation has been severely affected, and countless people are straight up dead.....but its snowing on Christmas so we are supposed to forget that??

[Peelee]

The hangups i have is why is there hesitation to

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return a dude to the afterlife while hes body jacking somone else. As someone said that i agreed with, if Superman did this crap, or Hal Jordan, it would be so wrong as to be bashed into oblivion, regardless of the fact that the body gets its mind back. But because its WW it should be overlooked???

and no amount of hand waving changes the fact that at the end of the movie, two nations are at war, another nation has been severely affected, and countless people are straight up dead.....but its snowing on Christmas so we are supposed to forget that??

Eh, I think there would be a similar response over it happening in Superman. Imean, it already is being bashed into oblivion, from what I can see.

Also, as far as endings I'm a sucker for, I more meant

Spoiler

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reuniting with his kid.

As far as consequences... well, the fictionalized versions of both major countries were *******s so I don't much care. They can both go rot. The other one? Same. I realize I may be in the minority on not caring about that terribly much, of course.

[HolyDraconus]

As far as consequences... well, the fictionalized versions of both major countries were *******s so I don't much care. They can both go rot. The other one? Same. I realize I may be in the minority on not caring about that terribly much, of course.

Its more than that though. You can't hold a people truly accountable for the things a nation chose to do. Plus, since this movie was supposed to be a telling of a "past" story it screws that up by making WW a liar about quitting heroics for a hundred years, and the gaping hole of a planet that has started: not on the verge of but actually started a nuclear war. So what, the movie takes place in an alternate timeline then from what they said it would be? Or is modern day just Fallout with a DC spin?

[Traab]

Does wonder woman even HAVE any good villains to work with? Most of the ones I know about are the originals created in the heady days of casual racism, sexism, and the fact that she was created as a bondage fanfic about how women want to submit to men. (And oddly at the same time women being destined to rule the world. This dude had some issues)

[Kitten Champion]

Does wonder woman even HAVE any good villains to work with? Most of the ones I know about are the originals created in the heady days of casual racism, sexism, and the fact that she was created as a bondage fanfic about how women want to submit to men. (And oddly at the same time women being destined to rule the world. This dude had some issues)

You can take your pick of morally questionable Greek deities and assorted mythological villains -- Hades, Circe, Medusa, etc.

As a bonus, you don't even have the issue of name recognition, as your general audiences have already heard of them.

Though, for whatever reason, I think the first Wonder Woman established that essentially the Greek pantheon was dead. Or something like that.