Ww84

[Ramza00]

Second, he doesn't violate her space at all. He pulls into an empty parking space, parks his bike, and says:
"Nice scuba scoot"
"Lighten up, honey. You got a smile for me"
(under his breath) "Freak"
Then he goes straight into the store.

Since we are talking about the physical assault version (the deleted scene), he literally gets into her face and pushes away the newspaper.

The scene used in the movie she just steals his bike after checking her out from a distance. It is a completely different thing, both are irritations, but being irritating / flirting from a distance is different than violating a person's space and forcing a confrontation where the other person has to give you eye contact.

[Dr.Samurai]

Since we are talking about the physical assault version (the deleted scene), he literally gets into her face and pushes away the newspaper.

This is certainly one way to describe it.

The scene comes across as wish fulfillment born out of resentment. Like... people are so fed up with the advances of men that we just wish we could physically overpower them and make them feel pain.

This is the same reason it doesn't work in Man of Steel either, because Clark comes off looking petty. And, as others have pointed out, in that scene the jerk actually gets physical with both Clark and the waitress.

But anytime someone has that much more power than someone else, we expect them to restrain themselves. That's what makes them heroic. The ideal of Superman is that someone can wield incredible power and be practically invincible and still be selfless and treat everyone in a way that keeps their dignity in tact. That if you raise someone the right way, as the Kents did with Clark, they can be godlike in power and a superhero, not a tyrant or a bully.

In Man of Steel, Clark lets his father die out of fear of being revealed. Martha tells him he doesn't have to save anyone because he doesn't owe anyone anything. Clark drives tree trunks through a guy's truck, and levels a city while trying to save it. These are some of the reasons some people took issue with Man of Steel.

It's the values that make them heroic. And in either scene, Clark with the lumberjack, or Vers with the motorcyclist, they look very petty and weak. There's no lesson imparted or wrong righted; it's just revenge or opportunism.

Does anybody else think that Wonder Woman’s abilities in this movie were kind of... lame? The web-swinging with the lasso, the Captain America tiara stupidity, the shiny pointless action figure armor...

Yes. The tiara was corny. The armor was pointless as you say. I like a lot of what they do with the lasso. But the mall scene where she just keeps leaping back and forth was dumb, and the lightning slinging as well (especially after she learned how to fly). We need more villains that can go toe to toe with Diana IMO.

[Ramza00]

This is certainly one way to describe it.

The scene comes across as wish fulfillment born out of resentment. Like... people are so fed up with the advances of men that we just wish we could physically overpower them and make them feel pain.

Yes.

Exactly.

First let's postulate that movies are fiction, it is absence / presence, it is not really happening it is just an illusion in one's mind. Yet simultaneously it provides cathartic release.

The world is not equal, and people take advantage of the fact. Why should some men purposefully advance on other people and say you have to give me attention and energy and I will force a confrontation for I feel entitled to this attention and I think it is fun.

Only for the roles to be reversed in an instant. Of course this is wish fulfillment. Yet that wish does not come out of a vacuum, it does not exist out of nothing, it exists for there are men who make other people feel uncomfortable not one or two times in other people's lives but dozens of times.

[Dr.Samurai]

Yes.

Exactly.

First let's postulate that movies are fiction, it is absence / presence, it is not really happening it is just an illusion in one's mind. Yet simultaneously it provides cathartic release.

Right, but it's a cheap cathartic release. When Peter gains his powers and starts bullying Flash Gordon, it may feel cathartic to him, but it's still wrong. When he gets that sweet sweet cathartic release watching the annoying store clerk get robbed, he sees his Uncle pay the price for his bad behavior (Sony spiderman, since it's been too long to remember Raimi spiderman for me).

Spider-man has the lesson in it. Man of Steel and Captain Marvel don't. Clark gets to ruin a guy's life and walk away. Vers gets to nearly cripple a guy and steal his stuff and walk away. There is no wrong righted or lesson learned, just revenge and opportunism.

The world is not equal, and people take advantage of the fact. Why should some men purposefully advance on other people and say you have to give me attention and energy and I will force a confrontation for I feel entitled to this attention and I think it is fun.

Only for the roles to be reversed in an instant. Of course this is wish fulfillment. Yet that wish does not come out of a vacuum, it does not exist out of nothing, it exists for there are men who make other people feel uncomfortable not one or two times in other people's lives but dozens of times.

I know it doesn't come from a vacuum. I called out where it comes from; resentment. This is like me wishing I could throw a driver off the road Chronicle-style because of my own road rage. It's the worst in us, not something our superheroes should be doing unless its a teachable moment.

Wishing you had the powers to save your friends or family, or to stop someone from harming people is okay. Wishing you had the power to hurt someone because they are *bothering* you and then acting on it is quite different. It's cheap and weak, and that's why they come off looking petty on screen when they do it. All IMO of course.

[LaZodiac]

Wanting to throw someone into the road is not comparable to wanting to punch the guy who is making unwanted sexual advances on you.

Every woman I know has had a moment where they wish they could do what Captain Marvel did, because in situations like those they feel threatened for their lives. It's just not comparable to "Superman gets grumpy someone was mean to him when he tried to be a hero". One is about having the ability to fight back against someone who typically gets all the power, one is about throwing a fit in rage. The Marvel scene may come from some degree of resentment, but it's a resentment that comes from a place of legitimacy.

Also in what world does Carol "almost cripple" a guy. She zaps him. She basically hit him with a taser.

[Ramza00]

Right, but it's a cheap cathartic release. When Peter gains his powers and starts bullying Flash Gordon, it may feel cathartic to him, but it's still wrong. When he gets that sweet sweet cathartic release watching the annoying store clerk get robbed, he sees his Uncle pay the price for his bad behavior (Sony spiderman, since it's been too long to remember Raimi spiderman for me).

Spider-man has the lesson in it. Man of Steel and Captain Marvel don't. Clark gets to ruin a guy's life and walk away. Vers gets to nearly cripple a guy and steal his stuff and walk away. There is no wrong righted or lesson learned, just revenge and opportunism.

First she did not hurt him besides a firm handshake in this deleted scene. We as the audience do not know what happens next. She could be bluffing. Once again abscence / presence and uncertainty. This same uncertainty is part of the fun for some viewers, horror to others, we can not be confident of what would happen next for we only see one outcome out of many.

Second for your bigger point. This is a movie universe that has iron man, a man immune to consequences. Why do some characters get to have consequences for being mean and saying you are not heroic, while others do not. Tony Stark is an arms dealer, Thor almost starts a multi planet war for he is a hot headed, Dr Strange was an [censored] when he was at the top of the world, and when he lost he seemed to punish the world for he could only visualize from his own narcissism. This is a movie origin story, heroes being [censored] is part of the story.

So why focus on Vers and not on Tony?

[BloodSquirrel]

Every woman I know has had a moment where they wish they could do what Captain Marvel did, because in situations like those they feel threatened for their lives.

I've got news for you, it's not just women who have had to deal with confrontational *******s who we wished we could just beat the **** out of. I once had someone almost run me over as I was getting out of my truck in a parking lot and have the audacity yell at me for being an "idiot" for being in the empty parking spot that he was speeding into without looking. I've had people actually threaten to kill me.

It's just not comparable to "Superman gets grumpy someone was mean to him when he tried to be a hero".

You're right, it's not comparable- that guy was trying to cause serious physical harm to Clark. He was way, way worse than the guy in Captain Marvel.

Also in what world does Carol "almost cripple" a guy. She zaps him. She basically hit him with a taser.

First she did not hurt him besides a firm handshake in this deleted scene.

Okay, can we not start being blatantly dishonest? She was crushing his hand hard enough to make him scream in pain. If you have to start characterizing causing severe pain to somebody as a "firm handshake" then it's a pretty good sign that you're making excuses for something that you shouldn't be making excuses for.

This is a movie universe that has iron man, a man immune to consequences. Why do some characters get to have consequences for being mean and saying you are not heroic, while others do not. Tony Stark is an arms dealer, Thor almost starts a multi planet war for he is a hot headed, Dr Strange was an [censored] when he was at the top of the world, and when he lost he seemed to punish the world for he could only visualize from his own narcissism. This is a movie origin story, heroes being [censored] is part of the story.

Thor was declared unworthy and was sent to Earth to learn a lesson. By the end of the movie, he had done a complete 180 and destroyed the bitfrost to stop the Frost Giants from being wiped out.

Dr. Strange was very pointedly taught a lesson in humility by the Ancient One as step one for his new training.

Tony Stark was nearly killed by one of his own bombs, kidnapped, and held as a prisoner by terrorists. When he got out the first thing he did was quit being an arms dealer.

All of the other characters were presented as having flaws that they overcame. Well, except for Tony, who kept screwing up in every movie, getting his ass kicked for it, only to overcompensate in the next movie and create another mess. Until he died. The only thing Captain Marvel had to learn was, uh, to just be more powerful.

[Dr.Samurai]

Wanting to throw someone into the road is not comparable to wanting to punch the guy who is making unwanted sexual advances on you.

Every woman I know has had a moment where they wish they could do what Captain Marvel did, because in situations like those they feel threatened for their lives.

Well, I certainly cannot speak for all women (or men for that matter). But even if Carol did not have deific powers, this man is not threatening her life in any way whatsoever.

It's just not comparable to "Superman gets grumpy someone was mean to him when he tried to be a hero". One is about having the ability to fight back against someone who typically gets all the power, one is about throwing a fit in rage. The Marvel scene may come from some degree of resentment, but it's a resentment that comes from a place of legitimacy.

Sure but... do you think that a guy has never wished to have the power to defend someone else or himself against a bully? The situation with Clark is also real. Not all men feel that they can legitimately defend themselves or others against an aggressor. Everyone has these feelings of inadequacy and resentment.

The difference is that the server in MoS tells the guy to stop and to leave her alone multiple times and he continues touching her. In Captain Marvel, she could have easily done the same thing and the scene would have a totally different tone. Instead, she says "Smile?", "How about a handshake?" and then (I thought) squeezes his hand extraordinarily hard (maybe I'm remembering it wrong but I thought she was crushing his hand not zapping him).

Meaning that it doesn't even take persisting after someone tells you to bug off to justify hurting them because she didn't even do that. Simply approaching her is enough to warrant a violent extortion.

Also in what world does Carol "almost cripple" a guy. She zaps him. She basically hit him with a taser.

What do you think she meant by "I'll let you keep your hand", that she was going to tickle him?

First she did not hurt him besides a firm handshake in this deleted scene.

I believe you. I always go around giving people a firm handshake until they immediately fulfill all my demands. Works every time :).

Second for your bigger point. This is a movie universe that has iron man, a man immune to consequences. Why do some characters get to have consequences for being mean and saying you are not heroic, while others do not.

Who am I giving a pass to? Aren't we talking about how Wonder Woman didn't care about Steve possessing another man's life, Clark destroying a man's livelihood, and Captain Marvel extorting someone for their gear? When did I give anyone a pass?

I gave the example of Spiderman. Heroes can certainly do wrong things, but it is usually a teachable moment, or part of character growth. If they keep doing bad things they get labeled as anti-heroes or something along those lines.

I don't want to make too much of it because obviously different people will see/like/relate to different things in these characters. But I thought your original comment on this was worth replying to.

[BloodSquirrel]

Here's the deleted scene:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1LhpXfxx2M

Here's the Man of Steel scene:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYgsU8RRYkM

[JadedDM]

I've got news for you, it's not just women who have had to deal with confrontational *******s who we wished we could just beat the **** out of. I once had someone almost run me over as I was getting out of my truck in a parking lot and have the audacity yell at me for being an "idiot" for being in the empty parking spot that he was speeding into without looking. I've had people actually threaten to kill me.

And was this a one off instance, or is this the constant background radiation of your life? Do you always worry about getting into a car at all, because so many of them have tried to run you over in the past?

Because this is the kind of thing women live with every day, all day, for their entire lives. And some have outright been killed because of it.

Simply approaching her is enough to warrant a violent extortion.

He did more than 'simply approach' her. He was actively harassing her. She made it very clear--from the look in her eye, to her body language, to her deliberate attempt to ignore him--that his advances were unwanted. Instead of respecting that and moving on, he invaded her space and demanded she smile for him--as if she only existed for his own benefit.

How do you think that scene would have continued had Vers not been a Kree super soldier, but just an ordinary earth woman with no special powers or super strength? How far do you reckon that guy would have escalated things until she complied with his 'requests'? Because if he was willing to violate her personal space and force her to pay attention to him like that...I have the sneaking suspicion he wouldn't have just walked away if she had told him to.

[Ramza00]

I've got news for you, it's not just women who have had to deal with confrontational *******s who we wished we could just beat the **** out of. I once had someone almost run me over as I was getting out of my truck in a parking lot and have the audacity yell at me for being an "idiot" for being in the empty parking spot that he was speeding into without looking. I've had people actually threaten to kill me.

It is a question of frequency and how people who move through the world. Women are going to have a different frequency ratio with confrontational [censored] ... much like men who are 8 feet tall vs 6 feet 8 inches tall vs 5 feet 8 inches tall will have a different frequency of hitting their head on low hanging things.

You can tell by the body language in the scene they choose not to use, and thus it is a deleted scene that she was uncomfortable and she was signifying to others, that she wanted boundaries and space. How he choose to put pressure on those boundaries multiple times. It was disrespectful, it was discourteous. It is not how men should interact with any other humans whether men with women or men with anyone else.

If you do not get this ... well this is a world, not just a nation, but a world of freedom and liberty so you do not have to get how that guy was being a creep.

[Lemmy]

I'm annoyed by telemarketing all the time...

Next time I write a story, should I make my supposedly heroic protagonist hurt, intimidate and rob a telemarketing agent?

There are plenty of widespread behavior and actions that annoy me... Which ones can I use as justification for my character to seriously harm someone, while still presenting said character as virtuous?

[Ramza00]

There are plenty of widespread behavior and actions that annoy me... Which ones can I use as justification for my character to seriously harm someone, while still presenting said character as virtuous?

You can't separate what is excellent*, from the immediate context, that is one of the big deal points built inside multiple versions of virtue ethics. Being brave is knowing when to run and when to be brash, being brave is the midpoint between being a coward and being foolhardy and where exactly that midpoint is excellent depends on context Sometimes the same action makes sense vs nonsense depending on the situation at hand and thus things are all relative. Much like your heart rate should be higher if you are stressed and pump full of adrenaline, this is healthy, but if your heart rate is always too high that is not healthy. Contexts matter, relativity brings clarity and insight for life is complicated.

Yes this quickly becomes The Thermian Argument, for all screenwriters, directors, etc get to choose what is relevant for the fictional world they create. A world full of narration (diegetic) and images where the actors interact with (mimesis.) Well the screenwriters etc get to choose what they bring to the table.



^{*Virtue is Latin and means excellent, the similar word in Greek is Arete, and I will stop here for each language has its own word for similar concepts.}

[Lemmy]

Well... Both movies show their worlds as "real world, but with these differences".

Nothing in them leads me to believe that the action of the jerks should be considered more harmful or in any way worse than they would be in real life...

So it still shows two super powered beings giving completely disproportionate responses to bad behavior...

It's just that one of them keeps getting excused, for some reason.

[DeadMech]

I'm annoyed by telemarketing all the time...

Next time I write a story, should I make my supposedly heroic protagonist hurt, intimidate and rob a telemarketing agent?

There are plenty of widespread behavior and actions that annoy me... Which ones can I use as justification for my character to seriously harm someone, while still presenting said character as virtuous?

There is pretty clear difference between a telemarketer annoying you at dinnertime and someone who makes habit of making others feel unsafe through intimidation and unwanted contact and attention.

Or the difference between a telemarketer trying to manipulate you into buying something you don't really need vs someone trying to psychologically attack you and make you feel inferior or unbalanced.

The scale of these transgressions aside, a telemarketer is easily escapable by simply hanging up a phone. When some jerk is accosting you in bar even removing yourself from the establishment isn't guarantee that they will leave you alone and the encounter will end. I've seen people acting like the bullies from both movies end up laid out on the sidewalk with broken noses and it's pretty rare I feel bad for them when their actions have consequences.

[LaZodiac]

@LemmyIt's almost as if the two scenes aren't comparable or something.

Like one scene is a hero acting out of character in edgy man-pain, and the other is a soldier showing a jerk exactly what he gets for thinking all woman are easy prey.

[Dr.Samurai]

He did more than 'simply approach' her. He was actively harassing her. She made it very clear--from the look in her eye, to her body language, to her deliberate attempt to ignore him--that his advances were unwanted. Instead of respecting that and moving on, he invaded her space and demanded she smile for him--as if she only existed for his own benefit.

Yes, I mean, you can be as descriptive as you want and try to make this as alarming as possible but... he literally said "Nice scuba suit" and she looked at him and then carried on with her reading. Then he said "How about a smile?" and pulled the paper down a bit and she said "A smile?" and he said "Yeah, I'm trying to help you, the least you can do is smile" and she said "how about a handshake?" and since he thinks he's getting the conversation he was looking for he chuffs and shakes her hand and introduces himself. And then she hurts him and forces him to hand over his stuff.

And we're like wow, she just hurt that guy and stole his stuff and other people are like "yeah but he stood next to her and talked to her".

How do you think that scene would have continued had Vers not been a Kree super soldier, but just an ordinary earth woman with no special powers or super strength? How far do you reckon that guy would have escalated things until she complied with his 'requests'? Because if he was willing to violate her personal space and force her to pay attention to him like that...I have the sneaking suspicion he wouldn't have just walked away if she had told him to.

Right, so now the guy is probably a sociopath or a rapist and we should punish people for potential crimes. Sure. I'm sure he was definitely going to do something in broad daylight in the parking lot of a strip mall.

You can tell by the body language in the scene they choose not to use, and thus it is a deleted scene that she was uncomfortable and she was signifying to others, that she wanted boundaries and space.

I think you're reading way more into that scene than is there. She does not signify that at all. Vers is looking for information and is on a mission. She hears someone speak to her, she takes a look and is not compelled to give it another thought. She is not uncomfortable, she's the strongest Marvel superhero on screen to date. This guy is nothing to her. He does not even deserve a response from her because she is busy and not interested.

And this is the part where you say "yeah, and since she didn't appear interested at his first comment, he deserves to be assaulted for trying again". And we'll just disagree there as well :).

It is not how men should interact with any other humans whether men with women or men with anyone else.

It's a poor way to display that in my opinion. I think most people know not to impose on others to a certain degree. What this guy does in Captain Marvel is hardly that. It would have worked better if he behaved more like the guy in Man of Steel, or if the scene is literally a fantasy that plays out in Vers head before she takes his motorcycle while he is in the store.

It's like when the action hero "gets the girl" at the end of the movie. This is saying that someone that is bold and courageous, selfless and fit can expect to get the girl of his dreams, because by having those qualities he is becoming more desirable to the opposite sex. It is more likely that the girl he is attracted to will also be attracted to him. But you can watch a movie like that and walk away with an idea like "I hate how the movie objectifies women like... just because he killed 100 terrorists with his bare hands, saved her life, her family's life, saved the world from an intergalactic threat and cured cancer, he just thinks he is entitled to have her like she is just some piece of meat for the taking, ugh".

It's in the execution. And in this case, they simply didn't make this guy that offensive to make this work. But I recognize that some people see a lot more in that scene than I do.

[LaZodiac]

Yes, I mean, you can be as descriptive as you want and try to make this as alarming as possible but... he literally said "Nice scuba suit" and she looked at him and then carried on with her reading. Then he said "How about a smile?" and pulled the paper down a bit and she said "A smile?" and he said "Yeah, I'm trying to help you, the least you can do is smile" and she said "how about a handshake?" and since he thinks he's getting the conversation he was looking for he chuffs and shakes her hand and introduces himself. And then she hurts him and forces him to hand over his stuff.

And we're like wow, she just hurt that guy and stole his stuff and other people are like "yeah but he stood next to her and talked to her".

Right, so now the guy is probably a sociopath or a rapist and we should punish people for potential crimes. Sure. I'm sure he was definitely going to do something in broad daylight in the parking lot of a strip mall.

I think you're reading way more into that scene than is there. She does not signify that at all. Vers is looking for information and is on a mission. She hears someone speak to her, she takes a look and is not compelled to give it another thought. She is not uncomfortable, she's the strongest Marvel superhero on screen to date. This guy is nothing to her. He does not even deserve a response from her because she is busy and not interested.

And this is the part where you say "yeah, and since she didn't appear interested at his first comment, he deserves to be assaulted for trying again". And we'll just disagree there as well :).

It's a poor way to display that in my opinion. I think most people know not to impose on others to a certain degree. What this guy does in Captain Marvel is hardly that. It would have worked better if he behaved more like the guy in Man of Steel, or if the scene is literally a fantasy that plays out in Vers head before she takes his motorcycle while he is in the store.

It's like when the action hero "gets the girl" at the end of the movie. This is saying that someone that is bold and courageous, selfless and fit can expect to get the girl of his dreams, because by having those qualities he is becoming more desirable to the opposite sex. It is more likely that the girl he is attracted to will also be attracted to him. But you can watch a movie like that and walk away with an idea like "I hate how the movie objectifies women like... just because he killed 100 terrorists with his bare hands, saved her life, her family's life, saved the world from an intergalactic threat and cured cancer, he just thinks he is entitled to have her like she is just some piece of meat for the taking, ugh".

It's in the execution. And in this case, they simply didn't make this guy that offensive to make this work. But I recognize that some people see a lot more in that scene than I do.

You're not a woman so I just don't think you can get it. I do like how you realize that at the end of your post though.

And, I feel again it is important; the scene where she actually gives him a zap or crushes his hand or whatever she does to him, is the deleted scene and thus not actually IN the film. Maybe they removed it because they did realize they were giving in a little too much, projecting their desire to lash out at the unfortunate reality that you have to be cautious of basically every man as a woman. Maybe they decided it didn't really fit the pacing, and that people would consider it in bad taste even if they do agree with wanting to do that. Maybe they just realized if it was in the film they'd receive endless amounts of people complaining about purely this scene and nothing else. Maybe it's just a bad scene.

Ultimately, the lived experiences of the woman I know have them being like "hell yeah, wish I could do that to every creep that couldn't read the signs, or did and forced himself on me anyway". You don't have that, so it doesn't read like that to you. That's okay, we can agree to disagree on that, for the most part. It's just a fun movie.

[Lemmy]

IMHO, both scenes are very similar and very easily comparable. In fact, both movies share many of their flaws.

I completely disagree with the notion of "you don't get because you aren't [insert demographics]". That's not even an argument. It's just a cheap way to dismiss someone else's thoughts.

Empathy is a thing. Understanding is a thing. Things humans are actually really good at. Just because I disagree with your opinion and conclusion, doesn't mean I don't "get it". Saying someone else can't understand others' position just because they don't share their [insert human characteristic], is having way too low an opinion of their fellow humans.

I also disagree with the idea that someone being a bit of an creep or annoying jerk comes even closely to justifying serious physical harm, intimidation and robbery. Specially when they pose absolutely no threat what-so-ever. There are many other behaviors that are far more threatening and harmful than that, and would still fall shot of meriting such a response.

That said... If those were the only crappy scenes in their respective movies... Superman and CM wouldn't have come off as unlikable as they did. And both examples are nowhere near as bad as "I'm okay essentially killing this innocent man if that means I can kiss the cute guy I knew for a couple weeks 40 years ago".

[Ramza00]

IMHO, both scenes are very similar and very easily comparable. In fact, both movies share many of their flaws.

I completely disagree with the notion of "you don't get because you aren't [insert demographics]". That's not even an argument. It's just a cheap way to dismiss someone else's thoughts.

Multiple people have brought up the same point. Who is doing the dismissing here?

[Lemmy]

Multiple people have brought up the same point. Who is doing the dismissing here?

If multiple people claim others can't understand them just because they don't share a characteristic, them said multiple people are indeed too easily dismissing the opinions and conclusions of others.

"CM/Superman is justified in her/his actions because the person was a jerk! And people are tired of dealing with this type of jerk!" is an argument... Not one I agree with, but it's an argument. I disagree with the conclusion, but I can understand the line of thought.

"You don't get it" isn't an argument. It's simply an statement that the other side's unable to fully comprehend your stance. "You don't get it because you aren't [X]!" sounds very condescending and dismissive, at least IMHO. Specially if the other side is trying to understand.

I honestly believe that human beings are very good at empathizing and understanding others when they actually try. And I'd like to think everyone here is at least trying to understand each other's PoV, even if we will never reach an agreement.

[Ramza00]

If multiple people claim others can't understand them just because they don't share a characteristic, them said multiple are indeed too easily dismissing the opinions and conclusions of others.

We are talking about experience vs lived experience. In English this may seem weird of how you phrase those two concepts but it has been an important philosophy concept for about 200 years now.

Furthermore in other languages such as German and the Romantic languages they have different words for these concepts. In German it is Erfahrung v. Erlebnis (often translated as lived experience.)

https://medium.com/@jacobhoerger/liv...e-2e467b6c2229

—————

I repeat if several people find a certain style of body language to be creepy, then maybe you should listen to them and not just dismiss it.

Furthermore the guy in the video (watch it) knows he is doing it. He purposefully while shaking Vers hand says...”People call me *purposefully pausing followed by voice change to do emphasis* THE DON”

It is all an act, it is all bravado, he literally calls himself a nickname that means gentleman, lord, or mafia person depending on context, THE don.

He is a creep, there are several beats that indicate he is a creep, and you should listen to people when they say his physical behavior make them feel uncomfortable.

[Lemmy]

Ironically, it seems you misunderstood my point... That actually a little funny.

I didn't say the posters are wrong for considering the character's behavior to be creepy.

Hell! I even referred to the very same character as "a bit of a creep" myself.

I have no problems with that statement. I don't find it dismissive at all. I just disagree with the notion that his behavior merits the level of punishment CM inflicted upon him (same goes for SM and the other guy, even if the other guy was quite a bit worse than the man in the CM movie).

What I consider condescending and dismissive is claiming that others are unable to understand a situation, condition, experience or feeling just because they haven't personally lived it.
IMHO, that claim is simply not an accurate description of reality.

Now... I could agree that most people don't try to really understand each other's experience... But from what I observed through out my life, most of us are certainly capable of doing so when we try. Or at very least, capable of understanding far better than many seem to think we are capable of.

[Ramza00]

Okay Lemmy what was the worse crime*

1) Giving a firm and hot handshake yet not causing permanent injury, just scaring a creepy man who was purposefully doing behavior he knew did not allow the women to have any control in the situation?
2) The man having terror for he did not understand what was happening and strong women may actually really hurt him (except she did not really hurt him, he was just scarred and terrified for he did not know) ?
3) Vers stealing his bicycle?

*Not literally a crime, just using playful language here.

Vers did all three, but which of the 3 makes it the worse of that experience?

[Lemmy]

Honestly... The whole scene would've been perfectly fine if she had simply said some variation of "leave me alone" before immediately escalating it to violence against a persons who poses absolutely no threat to her, and had not stolen his bike.

Also "give a firm handshake" is really downplaying it... The man seems to be in excruciating pain, to the point where he falls to the ground, unable to speak. I'd be surprised if he didn't have a couple broken bones. She literally says she'll only let him keep his hand if he gives her his bike. That's way more than "a firm handshake".
Besides, the handshake is extra terrifying because it not only hurts, but also make shim unable to even run away...

CM could have just given him a black eye and, I don't know, comically thrown him at a garbage bin like a in a 90's movie... In the same vein, Superman should have just punched the guy, rather than destroyed his livelihood.

Last, but not least... "What is the worse crime" is a moot point to me... Because I expect the (supposedly) heroic protagonist to be better than "random nameless jerk #428".

[Ramza00]

Last, but not least... "What is the worse crime" is a moot point to me... Because I expect the (supposedly) heroic protagonist to be better than "random nameless jerk #428".

But that was not the genre that the MCU was trying to do with Captain Marvel, they were trying to borrow from several late 80s and early 90s movies and Kevin Feige specifically said Terminator 2 was the biggest inspiration. Likewise Ben Mendelsohn who played Talos said Robert Patrick‘s T1000 was the biggest influence on how he played said character.

The bike scene is supposed to remind you with false nostalgia of Terminator 2, but also they change it up. Vers in the first half of the movie is supposed to be a mixture of the Terminator played by Arnold, Sarah Connor, and the wiseass of 12 year old John.

Vers is a solider, something very similar to a robot. She thinks she in a planetary level conflict so of course she is going to steal to achieve transportation, creepy guy was just the first opportunity.

Literally the Kree vs Skrull have a massive war, a war where if the Kree think something bad has occurred they will bring their fleet to fragment the planet’s surface.

Vers thinks she is Arnold, or Kyle Reese who has a mission from her superiors to save a planet. Come with me if you want to live and all that jazz.

————

As for the handshake and all that Vers did not invite this conflict, he did.

You said Vers should give him one more chance to de-escalate before scaring him, hurting him, but no permanent damage. Well creepy guy knew he was getting signals to ignore her, she was putting up boundaries, and he choose to violate them, ignore them, and forced her to grapple with him attention wise for he wanted her to pay attention to him.

[Traab]

So i watched the scene, he bugs her, she squeezes his hand till he drops to his knees in pain then robs him. its... not the best look no. It was a weak attempt to "justify" robbing a random guy for her convenience. A better approach would be this dude is harassing, maybe grabbing, some other woman, and she shows up, knocks him across the parking lot, then takes his stuff. Making him unlikeable ENOUGH that nobody really cares she robbed him. From what i read before this whole discussion went WAY off in the deep end about gender issues and real world blah de bloo, I can agree that it may have been an attempt to show where she was as a character so the rest of the film is about her becoming more of a hero, in theory. I didnt watch the film so cant speak to how well if at all they followed up on that aspect. I also agree that in general, when the hero does something wrong, like spiderman letting the criminal go, there is generally a lesson involved with that. When there isnt, the scene becomes even worse. A hero is supposed to be better than that, but its ok (from a story telling standpoint) when they abuse their power early on so long as there is a consequence that teaches them a lesson about doing so. great power, great responsibility, etc.

[LaZodiac]

For what it is worth, I've been burned because of situations where I've said "you're just wrong/you don't get it" so I was couching a lot of my words in that way.. So if anything I say sounds like I'm condescending to you, it's not my fault. It is not my intent.

And for what it is worth, I do agree that the scene is a little silly. I think it makes sense in universe (she's currently part of a space facist cop group that raised her since birth to treat disrespect with violence, and later learns that this is bad) but I am glad it was removed from the film regardless. And yeah we can all agree that regardless of how good or bad this is, it is still quite uncomfortable that Diana is just so casual about Steve bodyjacking a person.

[Chen]

And yeah we can all agree that regardless of how good or bad this is, it is still quite uncomfortable that Diana is just so casual about Steve bodyjacking a person.

If the actual reason for the body swapping is just that random tiny callback I can see why they didn’t bother with the uncomfortableness of it. If they didn’t realize what a cluster**** it would be for such a small joke they clearly didn’t think of the implications of it at ALL.

[Willie the Duck]

they clearly didn’t think of the implications of it at ALL.

Clearly. Handing such a gimme to those who would already be looking for reasons to very publicly and vocally hate the film had to have been an oversight. There's just no benefit to it.