Help me bard good (Optimized Bard Build)

[SpicyBoi_Nezu]

I, as a player with too much free time, tend to theorize d&d builds for fun. I tasked myself for creating an optimized build for all of the core base classes in 3.5e.

I have had a lot of difficulty figuring out how to optimize a bard, while keeping them relevant to the party. I understand that bards are closer to a jack of all trades type class, where they can do a large assortment of different things, but aren't too good at specializing in one thing.

I just want to hear some different ways to play or optimize the bard class, maybe a few mini-builds, hopefully something can spark my creativity, because I have no clue where to start. All 3.5 books allowed, even the Dragon Magazines.

[Rebel7284]

Here is a bard built I made recently. https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...e-Legend-Maker
Technically 0 levels of actual Bard though. Can easily be modified with Sublime Chord to get bard spells if you want those.

You can also search for Dragonfire Inspiration handbooks as that tends to be a good way to optimize a bard.

Bard->Crusader or Bard->Warblade can also be a good way to gish with Song of the White Raven feat.

[lylsyly]

Have a Handbook

[Anthrowhale]

Some standard things:

1) Max out dragonfire inspiration to grants a fistful of d6s to party weapon damage.

2) Finish with Sublime Chord to end up with sorcererish casting.

3) Snowflake Wardance adds your cha bonus to hit (note: it does not _replace_, it _adds_), which can be used to gish up.

4) Green Whisperer (Dragon #311) combines well with Fochlucan Lyrist to make a theurge class with nearly-full bard abilities.

[gijoemike]

There are many ways to bard. There are also many ways be a competent bard.

The real trick is deciding what style of bard you want to be.

Are you a trick swordsman bard? Bard have many spells that make they seem like a magical swordsman and a bard can be useful in this melee support role. This is a gish bard. Snowflake wardance is very common as are heartfire gauntlets. high charisma isn't needed

Are you a BFC caster? Heavy charisma and expanding ones spell list via the right prestige classes. Sublime cord is used often. Grease, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, shatter are just the tip of the iceberg.

Are you the ultimate support? Badges of courage, words of creations, song of the hearth(Hope?), Dragonfire insp. I have seen a level 8 bard dish out multiple d6 dice of damage to the whole party. It was a large party so it was ~24 extra dice of damage each round of combat. high cha may not be required.

Are you really a rogue/spy with magic? Completely different feel. This is a spy master, face-man. Can be very fun to play but takes a backseat during combat.


Just to cover the bases: There is a archetype in PF that is a damage casting bard that uses wands. Bardic music for them increases the caster level of charged items. A wand of magic missile in their hands is freaking dangerous. They get double wands at some point. It is a type of bard one can play. But that player really wants to be a sorc. I am listing it here for completeness.

That is the trick with bards. If someone plays a fighter or barbarian we all know they will be combat focused and even how they will play in general. Cleric/Sorc/Wizard has 1000s of spells to choose from yet we know in general how that will work. They will have high int and lean heavily on spells.

But when someone says I am playing a Bard - completely clueless. Who knows what they will do? Spells galore, skills galore, knowledgeable, face, weapons guys, buffer, BFC, damage dealer?



So you want to make the best bard possible? I ask what kind of bard?

[daremetoidareyo]

Yo, if you got dragon mag, you got access to heartfire fanner which means you can grant your feats to allies, which is awesome. There’s so many feats to choose from that you’ll likely get option fatigue. But if you took martial study and martial stance you could grant some cool moves to your buddies. But anything really goes. Swarm fighting is another interesting one.

[A.A.King]

Optimizing a Bard usually means "Optimizing Inspire Courage" which doesn't even need all that much Bard levels.

The "Initiate of Milil" feat stacks your Bard, Paladin and Cleric levels for determining which songs you have access to. Then, for a Bard / Paladin there is the feat "Devoted Performer" (Complete Adventurer) gives you extra uses of Bardic Music for your Paladin levels and the feat "Sacred Performer" (Dragon Magazine #357) gives you extra uses of Bardic Music for your Cleric levels. This means that a Bard 1 / Cleric 19 or Bard 1 / Paladin 19 would musically just be as effective as a Bard 20. (Also, given that you have access to Dragon Magazine you can replace Initiate of Milil with "Divine Inspiration" from Dragon Magazine #333 for a non-deity specific option).

Similarly, the feat "Song of the White Raven" Tome of Battle stacks your Bard, Warblade and Crusader levels for determining your Inspire Courage bonus. Though if you go this route you'd have to rely on "Extra Music" if you wanted a feat to give you more uses.

Given that you have access to Dragon Magazine that means you can take the "Chaos Music" (Dragon #326) feat which basically allows you to stack Bard with any class for up to 4 levels for determining which songs you have access too. This gives you some extra multiclassing freedom for interesting concepts. For example, I have a build that combines Bard / Warblade / Crusader with 1 level Fighter and 3 levels of Eternal Blade to grab some higher level Devoted Spirit maneuvers on my warblade chasis without losing Inspire Courage progression thanks to Chaos Music.

The only slight problem with feats like Initiate of Milil and Chaos Music is that they might stop you from trading in songs. Eberron Campaign Setting introduced the feat "Song of the Heart" which increases your Inspire Courage bonus by 1 as well as the ability to trade in higher level songs for some specific bardic music feats. Very often a bard will trade in the 6th level song Suggestion for Song of the Heart (you can't trade away Inspire Competence because that is a prerequisite for the feat) but it will probably depend on your DM whether or not a Bard 2 / Cleric 4 who gains access to Suggestion thanks to either Chaos Music, Divine Inspiration or Initiate of Milil can trade that song away for Song of the Heart.

There are also some prestige classes that stack for Inspire Courage. Already mentioned in this thread are "Green Whisperer" from Dragon #311 and "Fochlucan Lyrist" from Complete Adventurer. Not only do these classes stack for Bardic Music AND Bardic Knowledge, they also progress Bard AND Druid casting. A Bard 1 / Druid 2 / Rogue 2 / Green Whisperer 5 / Fochlucan 10 with the Chaos Music feat has Bardic Music of a 20th level bard, casting and knowledge of a 16th level bard as well druid casting of a 17th level druid. At that point you're basically gestalting.

Personally I like the "Divine Prankster" from Races of Stone. It's presented as gnome-only prestige class for followers of Garl Glittergold but it has a suggested adaption for followers of any trickster god. It stacks with Bard for Inspire Courage progression, progresses divine casting and gives you some fun special songs like "Enrage Enemy". Bard 1 / Divine Caster 4 / Divine Prankster 10 with the Chaos Music feat gives you Inspire Courage of a 15th level bard. You can then take 5 levels in another class that progresses divine casting and simply were a "Vest of Legends" from Dungeon Master's Guide II. The vest of legends is a magic item that gives you 5 extra bard levels for determining the strength of your Inspire courage bonus.
While I like using it for any cleric of a trickster god, you can use it without adapting for a fun know it all gnome (Gnome-it-All).

Spoiler: Gnome-it-All

Show

a.k.a. Gnomerus

Bard 1 / Archivist 4 / Divine Prankster 10 with Chaos Music, Trivial Knowledge and Knowledge Devotion.
- Bard Inspire Courage Buffs the party
- Archivist's Dark Knowledge buffs the party
- Chaos Music to compensate for the 4 Archivist levels
- Knowledge Devotion to gain attack and damage bonuses based on knowledge checks
- Trivial Knowledge to be able to roll twice for each knowledge check (which would work for both Knowledge Devotion and the Archivist's Dark Knowledge Ability.)

If you buy a vest of legends you don't need any bard levels so you can finish it up with more Archivist to get Dark Knowledge (Foe) to increase the party's damage out put and maybe a level in Sacred Exorcist to pick up turn undead if you want to use the Divine Prankster's Infuse Figment ability.

Depending on your DM you could even get access to all the bard spells as an archivist simply because "Divine Bard" is a thing

Finally there is the Virtuoso prestige class which stacks for Inspire Courage and progresses Arcane Casting. The reason that this is great is because it is usually combined with Sublime Chord, a prestige class that lets a bard pretend that it is a sorcerer. Sublime Chord has its own spellcasting progression but it doesn't increase inspire courage progression so the trick is to take 1 or 2 levels of Virtuoso before taking 1 or 2 levels of Sublime Chord and then finishing Virtuoso and using that to progress the casting from Sublime Chord

Bard 8 / Virtuoso 2 / Sublime Chord 2 / Virtuoso 8 with Chaos Music has Inspire Courage of 20th level bard, while having access to 9th level spells on a charisma basis. You can still replace 2 levels of Bard with anything else and you'd still be able to get Inspire Courage of a 20th level bard. You can also just use the Vest of Legends and save yourself a feat slot but you wouldn't get access to Inspire Greatness that way without actually taking 9 Bard Levels so it depends on your own preferences. I believe this is the most "bard" you'll ever get for your buck. Max Inspire Courage, a good selection of other songs, and access to all the bard spells (which my cleric bards don't get).

And all of this is just about the Inspire Courage song (which can become Dragonfire Inspiration if you have the dragonblood subtype and feats to spare). The Bard class is versatile enough that you can do all kind of things with it, depending on the role you want to fulfil and the power level of the campaign.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Inspire Courage Spellcaster Optimization:

Silverbrow Human, (Savage) Bard 8/ Dragonblood Sorcerer 1/ Dragon Devotee 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Sublime-Chord-advancing PrCs 8 (Paragnostic Apostle and Incantatrix are good).

Cast Inspirational Boost and get a Badge of Valor.

Melodic Casting, Dragonfire Inspiration, Wild Cohort, Words of Creation, trade Suggestion for Song of the Heart, Sorcerer gives you Draconic Heritage for something that uses sonic damage.

Make shortbow attacks that benefit from Dragonfire Inspiration. Get a Wild Cohort with a lot of natural attacks, which benefit from Dragonfire Inspiration. Cast Creaking Cacophony which makes opponents take 50% more sonic damage.

In the higher levels you've got decent spells for crowd controls so you're even more of a force multiplier.

Alternative Build: Silverbrow Human, (Savage) Bard 8/ Dragonblood Sorcerer 1/ Virtuoso 1/ Sublime Chord 1 or 2/ Virtuoso 9 or 8. Everything is otherwise the same.

You can have more than one of these in a party, up to six, just be sure they each pick a different energy type for Draconic Heritage, and one can skip Dragonfire Inspiration to buff everyone's attack bonuses.



Inspire Fear Spellcaster Optimization:

Desert Half-Orc, (Savage) Bard 8/ Dread Witch 1/ Nightmare Spinner 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Dread Witch 4/ Nightmare Spinner 4. Take the first Dread Witch and Nightmare Spinner levels as early as possible.

Trade Inspire Courage for Inspire Awe, trade another song for Haunting Melody, use the Otyugh Hole to get Menacing Demeanor. Use the Half-Humans and Humanlike Races variant in RoD p150.

Take a feat that gives you Intimidate as a class skill (Martial Study works), Dreadful Wrath, Melodic Casting, Imperious Command, Fell Frighten Spell, and consider Obtain Familiar + Improved Familiar for a Krenshar.

Wear armor with the Fearsome property (DotU version is more recent than MIC) and get the Never Outnumbered skill trick.

Fear effects stack causing an escalated fear condition (Shaken > Frightened > Panicked). The escalated condition persists until every effect that contributed to it has expired. Use tanglefoot bags or other obstacles to prevent scared opponents from fleeing so they cower. Get (Eternal) Wands of Blockade, Web, etc. to prevent escape and control the battlefield better, and also Command Undead to trump-card the majority of the low-level fear-immune opponents.

Eventually Dread Witch makes your fear effects work on everything. Again you've got full Sublime Chord spellcasting for higher level spells. Multiples of this build in a party only make it better, since they'll escalate every opponent to panicked that much sooner, and opponents will have more opportunities to fail their saves.

[Elves]

You usually either choose the casting route or the gish route and then maximize your inspire courage output as best you can. Heartfire Fanner PRC is a cool cheat that gives you 5th-level bardic music in a single level but can be a pain to fit in.

Down the caster route, fochlucan/sublime chord basically makes you Merlin. At the end you get sorcerer 9ths, druid 9ths and bard abilities. It's the most Celtic character in the game.

[saitoalan22]

And this buid?

Archivist 1-5
Heartfire fanner 1-5 (song of the heart +1)
Archivist 6-15

you can song any bard music (preq perform skill)

perform (storyteller) xD heartfire
Knowledge devotion

anny suggestions???

[Gruftzwerg]

I, as a player with too much free time, tend to theorize d&d builds for fun. I tasked myself for creating an optimized build for all of the core base classes in 3.5e.

I have had a lot of difficulty figuring out how to optimize a bard, while keeping them relevant to the party. I understand that bards are closer to a jack of all trades type class, where they can do a large assortment of different things, but aren't too good at specializing in one thing.

I just want to hear some different ways to play or optimize the bard class, maybe a few mini-builds, hopefully something can spark my creativity, because I have no clue where to start. All 3.5 books allowed, even the Dragon Magazines.

I need to ask how you define "optimized build for base classes"?
How much of the base class needs to be in the build?
E.g. if we would talk about monks, most people would argue that a monk build involves only 1-2lvls dip into monk, with some exceptions going for 6, 9 or 11 lvls in monk.

So what is the requirement here?
Anything minimally related to Bard fluff (including single lvl dips)?
Or, to make as much use of Bard base class as possible?
Or to use as much base Bard and bard prc as possible?

I've to admit that I haven't been much into Bard optimization so far. My sole attempt is a single lvl dip into Bard for my El Mariachi build, which only has it mostly for fluff reasons and not because it makes much use of the Bard class..^^
I'm looking forward for the ideas here and I 'll try to contribute to it if I find enough time.

[liquidformat]

Down the caster route, fochlucan/sublime chord basically makes you Merlin. At the end you get sorcerer 9ths, druid 9ths and bard abilities. It's the most Celtic character in the game.

I am not sure if I would say that, Druid 4/bard 1/green whisperer 3/Sublime Chord 2/Arcane Hierophant 10 (not in this order) does just as good a job being a Celtic Merlin character...

[Vizzerdrix]

Yo, if you got dragon mag, you got access to heartfire fanner which means you can grant your feats to allies, .

What mag is is this in? It could be useful to something I am building.

I'm hoping it will interact favorably with the gnome feat Animal Friends, DFI, and weasels. Lots and lots of weasels.

[Troacctid]

I have had a lot of difficulty figuring out how to optimize a bard, while keeping them relevant to the party. I understand that bards are closer to a jack of all trades type class, where they can do a large assortment of different things, but aren't too good at specializing in one thing.

That's a common myth. While it's true of bards in many other games, D&D 3.5e bards have several areas that they very much specialize in—the most notable being social skills, where they are a serious contender for the #1 best class in the game for the role. Nobody does Charisma better than the bard. There's a reason they have a reputation for seducing everyone. Other strengths of the bard include illusion and enchantment magic, where their seemingly slow spell progression belies the fact that they actually get access to a lot of the good stuff before sorcerers and wizards do; debuffs, mostly from the aforementioned spells but also with several potent variant forms of bardic music such as inspire awe; and buffs, which, y'know, inspire courage, obvs.

[Elves]

I am not sure if I would say that, Druid 4/bard 1/green whisperer 3/Sublime Chord 2/Arcane Hierophant 10 (not in this order) does just as good a job being a Celtic Merlin character...

Hierophant advances wild shape while Fochlucan advances bardic music and has higher BAB. It's your choice.

There are a lot of different double 9s builds you can make with some mix of bard/savage bard, druid, wizard, sublime chord, ur priest and then theurging with fochlucan, hierophant, mystic theurge, or green whisperer. It mostly comes down to the tertiary benefits you want - wild shape, bardic music, 16 BAB, rebuke from urpriest 2, arcane song from sublime chord 2, or going Fochlucan via feat rogue 2 to get real evasion and free up 4 feats.

[rrwoods]

their seemingly slow spell progression belies the fact that they actually get access to a lot of the good stuff before sorcerers and wizards do

You wouldn't happen to have a "list of underleveled bard spells" in that there collection of collections, would ya?

[Troacctid]

You wouldn't happen to have a "list of underleveled bard spells" in that there collection of collections, would ya?

No, just a list of bard-only spells (for prestige bard). Sorry. But off the top of my head: suggestion, heroism, mass suggestion, irresistible dance, and hideous laughter.

[Doctor Despair]

You wouldn't happen to have a "list of underleveled bard spells" in that there collection of collections, would ya?

Off the top of my head, bards generally get access to a lot of mind-affecting abilities and divination abilities before other classes (well - at earlier spell levels anyway), if that's a helpful place to start.