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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default Twofer: Best tactics with no class levels, & monster that doesn't know it's a monster

    I had a plot idea for a... thing, not sure where I'd use it. Maybe a webcomic. Anyway, I recently binged through My Hero Academia, so I suspect that might have been part of the inspiration for this idea.

    The concept is a world where RPG mechanics are real things acknowledged by the characters in the world. The main character wants to grow up be a great hero, but their dreams are shattered when they discover that they're unable to level up (and thus, unable to take a class). Not sure exactly where the story would go, but they would likely still try to take part in adventures, and eventually try to be an adventurer anyway, even without any class levels.

    So first question: What are good tactics for someone with no class levels? I don't have a specific system in mind, but probably something vaguely D&D-esque. Most likely these would be things that don't have very well fleshed out rules and thus aren't integrated into the class system very well. The first thing that comes to mind is item crafting and use, as in many systems an item is just as strong no matter who's using it. If it were like D&D 5e, then abusing ability checks might be viable; although your bonuses will be lower than someone with class levels, if you have good stats they won't be that much lower, giving you a realistic chance of defeating them. Grappling comes to mind as an example. I think 5e also has rules for choking people out, allowing you to completely sidestep HP. Although speaking of, without any class levels, your HP would be pretty low, so getting in close enough to grapple probably isn't a good idea.

    Item use seems like the best lead, though. So I could see this character delving into something like alchemy in order to make potions and bombs. Spell scrolls, too, but they probably can't create those themselves without having a spellcasting class. And of course goodies like ball bearings, caltrops, oil, and so on.

    Now, this begs the question of why he can't level up. And of course this would be an epic plot twist later on in the story. It kind of needs to be answered, and should also have appropriate foreshadowing. After thinking about it for a while, I came up with an answer: monsters don't level up. (How often have you heard, "Monsters don't have class levels/Don't build a monster like a PC"?) So this kid is actually a monster, and just had no idea.

    So now the second question: What's a good monster for someone who doesn't know they're a monster? If this kid, and everyone around them, believed this whole time that the kid was human, then obviously he must look human. So either he's a monster that has a human appearance, or he's some kind of shapechanger that subconsciously shapeshifted into a human form as a baby and stayed that way. It would need to be a real monster, too, not something that would be a "playable race". For example, an orc is a monster, while a half-orc is not. Something like a heavily modified vampire might work, but for someone to not know they're a vampire would require such heavy modification that it would barely be a vampire anymore.

    It makes sense for the monster choice to mesh well with his tactics, allowing him to actually compete with heroes with classes despite not having one himself. If he's an alchemist, then something like a devil or demon who is resistant/immune to fire and poison would make sense, since alchemists work with flammable and toxic materials. Actually, something similar to D&D 5e's imp might be a good fit. Abilities like flight, teleportation, or invisibility could be effective on an item-based build. Naturally, he's not initially aware that he has these abilities, so that's something that also needs to be considered. If, say, he's immune to weapon damage, he's probably going to discover that at some point during his childhood and it will raise questions, so we can't have that.

    There's also a question of backstory. How did this even happen in the first place? Either his mother had an encounter with a monster of the same or similar type, or one or both of his parents are monsters. If his parents are monster, though, why would they raise him as a human when surely they'd know the truth? Likely this only makes sense if either they don't know he's a monster, or only one parent is a monster and is hiding it from their spouse (as well as the rest of the town). The point of this is that there are likely certain types of monsters that this would work better with than others.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Twofer: Best tactics with no class levels, & monster that doesn't know it's a mon

    Quote Originally Posted by Greywander View Post
    The concept is a world where RPG mechanics are real things acknowledged by the characters in the world.
    If everyone knows these in their entirety, you get the stagnation problem. Everyone has developed optimal builds, whatever optimal means in any given field. If there are any loopholes, they are used and abused to hell and back. RPG mechanics also mean the world around you is less complex by definition, as anything you recognize as RPG-like is an abstraction to begin with, so all of this was likely figured out in early medieval times, once you had enough algebra to start properly crunching statistics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greywander View Post
    they discover that they're unable to level up (and thus, unable to take a class). Not sure exactly where the story would go, but they would likely still try to take part in adventures, and eventually try to be an adventurer anyway, even without any class levels.
    Not all RPGs use class levels. Maybe he's just skill-based?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greywander View Post
    What are good tactics for someone with no class levels? I don't have a specific system in mind, but probably something vaguely D&D-esque. Most likely these would be things that don't have very well fleshed out rules and thus aren't integrated into the class system very well.
    Only "the system" is reality and everyone had a long time to figure out how to exploit all of these holes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greywander View Post
    Item use seems like the best lead, though. So I could see this character delving into something like alchemy in order to make potions and bombs. Spell scrolls, too, but they probably can't create those themselves without having a spellcasting class. And of course goodies like ball bearings, caltrops, oil, and so on.
    Only problem is, everyone else and their mother either already does this, or has powers that far outstrip the items. Imagine someone with DnD 5e consumables going against a 10th level sorcerer, or even fighter. That Alchemist fire sure looks hell of a lot less effective now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greywander View Post
    Now, this begs the question of why he can't level up. And of course this would be an epic plot twist later on in the story. It kind of needs to be answered, and should also have appropriate foreshadowing. After thinking about it for a while, I came up with an answer: monsters don't level up. (How often have you heard, "Monsters don't have class levels/Don't build a monster like a PC"?) So this kid is actually a monster, and just had no idea.
    I still just think he's in GURPS or FATE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greywander View Post
    So now the second question: What's a good monster for someone who doesn't know they're a monster? If this kid, and everyone around them, believed this whole time that the kid was human, then obviously he must look human. So either he's a monster that has a human appearance, or he's some kind of shapechanger that subconsciously shapeshifted into a human form as a baby and stayed that way. It would need to be a real monster, too, not something that would be a "playable race". For example, an orc is a monster, while a half-orc is not. Something like a heavily modified vampire might work, but for someone to not know they're a vampire would require such heavy modification that it would barely be a vampire anymore.
    Yeah, not touching this topic with a standard issue 10ft pole.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greywander View Post
    What are good tactics for someone with no class levels?
    Let's get back to this. In most TTRPG systems, the answer to this is abusing rule 0 or Chunky salsa rule. Just about the only place I've seen this done even semi-decently well is Erfworld.

    This means that tactics you use are tactics that, well, work well in real life, you're just even more dependent on them. Assassinations, wealth, political and psychological manipulation and so on. Sure, you may not have the charisma or appropriate diplomacy skill to use for it, but most systems do have a mechanic of "if the deal is too good, it auto-succeeds".

    For becoming a HeroAka style hero, note that Izuku himself couldn't do it, he had to get quirked or get out. With a setup like this, your best bet is something like a strategist, or tactical analyst, but even then, you may need people with skills to uncover other people's stats.
    That which does not kill you made a tactical error.

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    Halfling in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Twofer: Best tactics with no class levels, & monster that doesn't know it's a mon

    In 4e & 5e shapeshifted dragons are indistinguishable from humans unless they either use their magic or take more damage than they should have HP for. If he hasn't taken that damage and doesn't know about his powers that might work.
    92% of forum users no longer put made-up statistics in their signatures. If you're part of the 8% who still do, copy and paste this into your signature.

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    Default Re: Twofer: Best tactics with no class levels, & monster that doesn't know it's a mon

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Greywolf View Post
    If everyone knows these in their entirety, you get the stagnation problem. Everyone has developed optimal builds, whatever optimal means in any given field. If there are any loopholes, they are used and abused to hell and back. RPG mechanics also mean the world around you is less complex by definition, as anything you recognize as RPG-like is an abstraction to begin with, so all of this was likely figured out in early medieval times, once you had enough algebra to start properly crunching statistics.
    Not as much as you might think. First of all, not everyone is going to be interested in pure optimization, some people will take a particular build because it's interesting, does something unique or cool, or just because they like it. Second, the detachment between player and character doesn't exist; I know that IRL I can optimize my physical ability by working out, and yet I don't. Thirdly, it's not that they just "know" all the mechanics, it's more like studying science. The world just runs on different physics that looks a lot like an RPG. There's a lot they do know, but they don't have complete knowledge like we do when we can read the rulebook.

    Not all RPGs use class levels. Maybe he's just skill-based?
    My feeling is that consistency is king in a rule-based system. To say it works one way, then later have it work a different way subverts the value of having rules at all, and decreases both tension and audience investment since they know you can just make up a new rule any time to save the heroes. With this in mind, it would be really weird if (a) the world mixes several RPG systems instead of having one system used by everyone, and (b) if the character didn't somehow realize that they used a different system. Also, I feel like this wouldn't end up serving any kind of purpose within the plot. It would be like if someone wanted to be a superhero, but they were sad because they didn't have fire powers, but they do have ice powers. There's no reason they couldn't still become a hero with ice powers, so it's a pointless plot point. If I did go this route, it would make more sense to start off with the character knowing they're using a skill-based system, and so there would be no character arc where they don't know if they can become a hero.

    Only problem is, everyone else and their mother either already does this, or has powers that far outstrip the items. Imagine someone with DnD 5e consumables going against a 10th level sorcerer, or even fighter. That Alchemist fire sure looks hell of a lot less effective now.
    Definitely true if you're engaging head-on. Otherwise, you can use items to inflict conditions and the like, e.g. using caltrops to reduce their move speed. Creative item use can allow a weaker creature to give a stronger one a heck of a bad time, but it is true that damage output is going to be much lower. Eventually, he'd be able to start using his monster abilities to make up the difference, though without a specific monster in mind it's hard to say what effect this would have.

    Yeah, not touching this topic with a standard issue 10ft pole.
    This is a strange reaction to my question. Is it possible you're reading something into it that isn't there?

    Let's get back to this. In most TTRPG systems, the answer to this is abusing rule 0 or Chunky salsa rule. Just about the only place I've seen this done even semi-decently well is Erfworld.

    This means that tactics you use are tactics that, well, work well in real life, you're just even more dependent on them. Assassinations, wealth, political and psychological manipulation and so on. Sure, you may not have the charisma or appropriate diplomacy skill to use for it, but most systems do have a mechanic of "if the deal is too good, it auto-succeeds".

    For becoming a HeroAka style hero, note that Izuku himself couldn't do it, he had to get quirked or get out. With a setup like this, your best bet is something like a strategist, or tactical analyst, but even then, you may need people with skills to uncover other people's stats.
    Being a monster is his "quirk", but without the knowledge that he's a monster, he won't be able to leverage that in order to compete against characters with class levels. Otherwise, these are all good points. I know, for example, in 5e fall damage is another thing that can be weaponized to great effect by weaker creatures against stronger ones, though it's heavily dependent on the environment having someplace to drop someone. Becoming the tactical leader of a party, rather than acting alone, will probably also work out well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonsonthemap View Post
    In 4e & 5e shapeshifted dragons are indistinguishable from humans unless they either use their magic or take more damage than they should have HP for. If he hasn't taken that damage and doesn't know about his powers that might work.
    This could work, though I think in D&D dragons need to be at least adults before they can shapechange. I could always change that, though. I was hoping for something more interesting than a dragon, though I suppose I could just make up a new kind of dragon with whatever traits I wanted (e.g. they might only grow to be person-sized, might not be super strong, might have weird abilities not normally associated with dragons, etc.). Probably the best option is to use some kind of existing creature with only minor tweaks so that when the big reveal happens people are like, "Oh, yeah, that makes sense," rather than, "Okay, I have no idea what this is."

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    Default Re: Twofer: Best tactics with no class levels, & monster that doesn't know it's a mon

    I think “dragon” is probably your best bet, but will offer “lycanthrope,” too. Doesn’t know he’s a monster, stronger than normal, and at least in 5e, immune to nonmagical, no silver weapons. Still vulnerable to magic, though.

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    Default Re: Twofer: Best tactics with no class levels, & monster that doesn't know it's a mon

    The 'obvious' monster choice for me is a changeling. According to 5e fluff, they usually don't know about their powers until puberty and live as a human until then. Make him a late bloomer and he would start to figure it out at about the same time as his friends get their first level.
    In my mind, this translates to ambush and gorilla warfare tactics. Basically Taylor's kobolds style of hit, drop some caltrops to slow down your enemy and find the next hiding place. As he starts to use his abilities, he'll become a great party spy and infiltrator.

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    Default Re: Twofer: Best tactics with no class levels, & monster that doesn't know it's a mon

    The tactics are covered.

    The monster part, I would go with a were-[something weird]. The trigger for the were has to be something specific and rare so that it can’t have been set off already. When it goes off the character loses control, which sets up the anime trope of a hidden dark side superpower the character has to fight against/control. If the dark side has sentience, not just hulk mode, then you can also have both sides trying to control and become dominant. And once the character becomes aware of the trigger they may be able to deliberately trigger the transformation, maybe evetually becoming an at-will transformation.

    If you want to use dragons, you might try to build a were-dragon. One of the more feral chromatic dragons got infected with lycanthropy and wounded/had a child with the character’s mother. Character has no knowledge of it, mother doesn’t speak of it.
    Last edited by Pauly; 2021-01-03 at 03:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Twofer: Best tactics with no class levels, & monster that doesn't know it's a mon

    A changeling might be interesting. In D&D 5e, they are a playable race, not a monster, and don't really have much in the way of special abilities except for the ability to turn into other people. But in folklore, changelings are a type of fey creature, and I could easily make up a more exotic changeling with fey abilities. Since the changeling's shapeshifting ability is widely know, it would still get an, "Oh, that makes sense," when it's revealed. You'd probably expect a changeling protagonist to skew more towards political intrigue and subterfuge, which isn't really the angle I want to go for. So it's workable, but not necessarily ideal. De-emphasizing the shapeshifting in favor of other fey-like abilities might get me closer to what I want, such as the previously mention Tucker's Kobolds style of fighting smarter not harder.

    For lycanthropes, let's say we have two types: viral, and hereditary. Viral lycanthropes necessarily can't be monsters, because anyone can become infected. I suppose someone who isn't a monster could be turned into one by getting infected, but that's going to raise some issues about the distinction between monsters and humans, as well as beg the question of what happens if they already have class levels. Hereditary lycanthropy is a different beast, and would probably work fine, if I wanted to count them as monsters. Usually only viral lycanthropy is treated as a curse, while hereditary lycanthropy is more like a super power. My main issue with either kind of lycanthropy is that usually a lycanthrope isn't its own type of creature, but rather a different creature with lycanthropy layered on top. For example, a human who is also a lycanthrope is still a human. If lycanthropes are their own race, then why not dispense with the shapeshifting and just make them a straight up beast race? And even then, they might still qualify as "human" (i.e. a "playable race") rather than a monster.

    I wonder if the reason I'm not keen on dragons is because it seems too obvious, too easy? That, and dragons are pretty beastly fighters. If I wanted a flying brick type of character (which isn't far off from My Hero Academia), then a dragon would work, but if I want something that's physically weaker but able to fight more cleverly then a dragon makes less sense.

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    Default Re: Twofer: Best tactics with no class levels, & monster that doesn't know it's a mon

    To avoid stagnation, have 'homebrew' actually be an in-character concept. Periodically the gods of the setting introduce new mechanics, being someone with a homebrew class or feat indicates a likely Chosen One plotline starting, or means they're destined to turn villain and die against the Chosen One in three rounds, or to retire to run a magic shop (in which case their Homebrew power is an unknowable wild card preventing adventurers from stealing from the shops)

    Your monster protagonist then has to pass off the odd abilities he manifests or stuff he MacGyvers together as some kind of new Homebrew class that no one heard of before.

    I'd go something like a Baleful Polymorphed Dragon (or even PAO), or something else with a specific but different mechanism for getting HD. Would allow sustaining confusion (do I level, or not?) and has a potentially satisfying apotheosis moment when they receive a Break Enchantment or step into an AMF for the first time.

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    Default Re: Twofer: Best tactics with no class levels, & monster that doesn't know it's a mon

    For monsters, what standard are you using for "can't gain levels"? Because in 3.x, for example, most sapient things can. Although arguably if the "world" was non-Epic, something that had LA >= 20 couldn't gain any more levels.

    Secondly, how much of a boost do you want revealing the real type to be? Like: "It turns out I'm a really a ___ and ..."
    1) "It's nice to have that explained. Doesn't change much in practice though."
    2) "Now I've got some new tricks."
    3) "Now I'm substantially more powerful."

    For something in the 1-2 range, Yuan-Ti Purebloods look pretty close to human. It's possible that one particular one could - through mutation or intentional modification - look indistinguishable.

    Solidly at 2, a Doppelganger could be stuck in a particular form, and also not really understand how to use their telepathy.

    At 3, a Rakshasa not only can change shape, but the change specifically lasts until actively revoked and can't be dispelled by anything short of death. They do have pretty high resistance to damage though, so you'd need a way to explain that.

    At the extreme end of 3, a Hagunemnon could potentially get locked in a particular shape, by something like a divine curse. Although even with no conscious knowledge its insanely high physical abilities would be a giveaway something was very much not normal.

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    Default Re: Twofer: Best tactics with no class levels, & monster that doesn't know it's a mon

    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal View Post
    For monsters, what standard are you using for "can't gain levels"? Because in 3.x, for example, most sapient things can. Although arguably if the "world" was non-Epic, something that had LA >= 20 couldn't gain any more levels.
    I've watched a few anime that seem to run on RPG logic (Konasuba, Goblin Slayer, Sword Art Online, etc.) and one thing I've noticed is that often there will be a specific mechanic that's used as a plot point. It's kind of the same thing here: I wanted a plot point where the protagonist can't gain levels, therefore I needed to think about what kind of person or creature would be unable to gain levels, and came up with the idea of using monsters.

    For an in-universe explanation, I've hashed out a quick lore concept: Originally, creatures had one of two types of souls: human or beast. Those with human souls possessed the ability to learn and grow stronger, while those with beast souls could not learn, but would instead grow stronger with age. The more intelligent creatures with beast souls coveted the power that humans possessed, and by various means some of them found a way to gain that power for themselves. Their beast souls were corrupted by the stolen human power and became monster souls.

    There isn't really a functional difference between a monster soul and a beast soul, the monster soul is just stronger. And actually, this just now gave me an idea for how to implement the concept of level adjustment: it's literally just a measure of how much stolen human power they have (e.g. if your monster abilities are equivalent to three class levels, you have a level adjustment of 3). In rare cases a creature will be born with both a monster soul and a human soul, allowing them to benefit from their monster abilities while also taking class levels, but the stronger the monster soul, the more XP you need to gain that first level.

    Secondly, how much of a boost do you want revealing the real type to be? Like: "It turns out I'm a really a ___ and ..."
    1) "It's nice to have that explained. Doesn't change much in practice though."
    2) "Now I've got some new tricks."
    3) "Now I'm substantially more powerful."
    More 2, but leaning 3. As you may have gathered from above, I'm leaving open the possibility that they might still gain class levels, but much later. Their level adjustment would need to be high enough that they discover they're a monster before gaining enough XP to level up. This suggests a fairly powerful monster. But at the same time, it can feel cheap if the protagonist just suddenly has super strong powers out of nowhere. I'd rather err on the side of only making the protagonist a little bit tougher and stronger (so they don't just instantly die when hit), and rather introducing abilities that allow for more clever fighting instead of brute force.

    Quote Originally Posted by NichG View Post
    To avoid stagnation, have 'homebrew' actually be an in-character concept.
    [...]
    Your monster protagonist then has to pass off the odd abilities he manifests or stuff he MacGyvers together as some kind of new Homebrew class that no one heard of before.
    I was playing with the idea that once they gain enough XP to overcome their level adjustment, it will turn out that they've created a new class based entirely around the specific tactics they've been using all along. Creating new classes, etc. is something that can be done, it just isn't commonly done. I'd need to come up with a good in-universe explanation, but maybe it could have to do with needing to commit to that "homebrew", and if it's a bad homebrew, then you're stuck with it. For example, once you take levels in a class, you can't get those levels back to spend on a different class.

    But yes, there is the possibility that once he discovers he's a monster and has special abilities, he'll need a way to explain those to people who don't know he's a monster. Actually, this might be what leads to him accidentally creating his own class later on.

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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Twofer: Best tactics with no class levels, & monster that doesn't know it's a mon

    The fetches, changelings or true fae from Changeling: The Lost could probably be good inspiration for if you do go down the (non-d&d) changeling route.

    The fetches are imitations of people that are created so nobody realises that a person was kidnapped by the fae. They're made of rags or damp newspapers or other junk that's just lying around, but they're virtually impossible to magically see that they're inhuman unless you're extremely skilled in some kind of perception magic. They have a tendency to be more evil than the original, but a great many of them don't realise that they're fake. Given that they themselves are neither human nor fairie, it would definitely create a reason for them to have access to tricks that very few people have seen, once the fetch has figured out what they really are.

    The changelings and true fae on the other hand can be useful to look at just because of their magic system, especially if you combine it with how changelings work in folklore where they're just fairies that have taken the place of people. Essentially, they can create magical contracts with people to force them to perform or avoid certain actions, to grant them magical gifts, or to make them immensely rich, skilled, or whatever.
    They also have access to contracts made with reality itself, so that one with a contract with the season of Spring might heal someone, while Stone might let you rip people or objects apart, and Darkness lets you sneak, or inflict terror etc.
    I could easily see a fairy that forgot its true nature having to relearn everything from scratch. Perhaps they intentially weren't given some of the appropriate knowledge just because of whatever politics were going on in the fae realms.

    Also fae in fiction have a tendency to always be able to use glamours/illusions, sometimes even having the glamoured object taking on the properties of whatever it's disguised as, so a twig glamoured up as a knife can still cause real cuts, at least until the deception is figured out, so that could be another angle to go down for anything fae related.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Twofer: Best tactics with no class levels, & monster that doesn't know it's a mon

    I don’t know how it fits into your world building, but the equivalent of a humaniform robot or replicant might fit. A construct that is constructed well enough to fool peopke into thinking it is human, programmed to think it is not a construct and to act within human restrictions, not use it’s full capabilities.

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