Redcloak and his way of thinking

[lowoki]

Disclaimer: I still haven't gotten SoD and only know a bit about it, so some relevant points might be missing. The majority of the analysis here is from the main comic.

Reading through Rich's answer post made me realize something. Redcloak, for the most part, views goblinoids and their issues as hypotheticals.

In the very beginning of the comic he cares at least a bit, as long as he knows the goblin personally (though this was before a lot of his character development). For the most part he doesn't put up more than verbal objections to his boss tossing his brethren through a big hole. Later on when he assumes command of the hobgoblins a mere species grudge is enough to justify sending them to die en masse in Azure City. When he's told about the massive causalities he tells them to "suck it up". Hobgoblins are a tool for him to command up until one dies in front of him, saving his life. His commands affect him directly, making him realize just what he's doing. ("WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH ME?!?") He responds to his unexpected guilt by riding into battle and making himself into the hero of the encounter. Suffering doesn't really matter until he's up close and personal with it.

But somewhere between the idea of Gobbotopia and its fruition, he falls back into an old thought pattern. He has something he needs to get done. He has something that needs to happen, opponents he needs to neutralize, and someone he needs to keep in one spot while he works. So he starts treating people like variables to be managed. Xykon is distracted, Tsukiko is (sort of) tolerated while she's useful, and Jirix is trained to take his place during the next step of his plan. He outright states that he sees Xykon as a means to an end. He uses his understanding of others to get them where he wants them and gets mad when things don't go according to plan (see the O'Chul parapet scene). When Tsukiko becomes more of a threat than she's worth, Redcloak takes her off the table entirely. And he feels nothing about it. He displays nothing towards the elder he destroys to hide the evidence, merely noting some regret at the cultural loss. He places the most value on the intangible, his plans and ideals. Interestingly enough, his favorite spells seem to be Disintegrate and Implosion, both of which eliminate the target's physical form entirely.

It's at Kraagor's Gate that we see the most obvious examples of how he thinks. When Oona makes a statement about the bugbears' conditions that doesn't fit into his narrative, it's dismissed with a platitude. When Durkon explains the gods' problem to him, Redcloak jumps on the opportunity to bolster his own ego with the idea that the gods are afraid of him. Later in the conversation, when Durkon asks him what he means by "equality", he first makes an assumption about Durkon's material conditions based on his perception of dwarves. After taking a crack at Durkon, he lays out a very general idea of what he wants for goblinkind, but justifies the murders committed in the pursuit of equality with:

"I did what I had to do to get where I am.--Where we are."

And that one line sums up his thoughts perfectly. He will justify everything he does by saying that he needed to do it for goblins, but in his own mind he comes first. He just won't admit it. Not to himself, and certainly not to anyone else. Goblins are a tool to him the way everyone else is. They're an idea that can be trotted out to defend his position, which is why the potential goblins in the next world are just as valuable to him as the real ones in the current world. Redcloak is pursuing his own glory and his own revenge above all else, and the concept of goblin welfare is the ideological justification for every terrible act he commits. Durkon's comment about Redcloak killing more goblins than him made Redcloak angry because it was a truth that contradicted the false way he sees himself. He needs to believe that he is important. He needs to be the hero, the brave, cunning underdog, the chosen prophet of the goblins' only god. Redcloak, and only Redcloak, will save goblinkind from the unjust world. He needs a good lie, because without it he'd just be a selfish, egotistical, ruthless monster pursuing his own goals at the expense of everyone ever to exist. Just like Xykon.

[The Pilgrim]

You forgot to important scenes about how Redcloak thinks, in the main comic:

Redcloak to the Polymorphed Spy: "I just thank the Dark One that I didn't need to execute you myself"
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0827.html

Redcloak to the Elder Artisan: "The loss of your craftmaship diminishes our people...Disintegrate".
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0831.html

Both instances show that, despite his epiphany during the Battle of Azure City, he still treats the goblinoids as disposable minions, forfeiting their lives if it's only slight more convenient than letting them live.

[Goblin_Priest]

You forgot to important scenes about how Redcloak thinks, in the main comic:

Redcloak to the Polymorphed Spy: "I just thank the Dark One that I didn't need to execute you myself"
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0827.html

Redcloak to the Elder Artisan: "The loss of your craftmaship diminishes our people...Disintegrate".
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0831.html

Both instances show that, despite his epiphany during the Battle of Azure City, he still treats the goblinoids as disposable minions, forfeiting their lives if it's only slight more convenient than letting them live.

Yea, past that point, he no longer lets them die pointlessly. He's still very willing to dispose of them if it serves a purpose, though.

[Grey Watcher]

Yea, past that point, he no longer lets them die pointlessly. He's still very willing to dispose of them if it serves a purpose, though.

I'm still a little unclear in what that purpose was, though. Jirix and Xykon are well aware that the phylactery was found, lost, and found again, so it's not like the spy knew anything that Redcloak actually intended to keep secret.

The craftsman makes a little more sense, but still seems like overkill, given that he and Xykon are leaving soon anyway.

[Kornaki]

The craftsman makes perfect sense. I think the reason he let the spy die is the spy knows he let the resistance live until the phylactery was found. He could have crushed it weeks ago but waited and let them steal the phylactery back so he would have a chance to swap with the fake

[lowoki]

The craftsman makes perfect sense. I think the reason he let the spy die is the spy knows he let the resistance live until the phylactery was found. He could have crushed it weeks ago but waited and let them steal the phylactery back so he would have a chance to swap with the fake

Exactly. He gets rid of anything that could possibly trip up his plans. The only person he really trusts not to mess everything up is himself.

[KorvinStarmast]

The only person he really trusts not to mess everything up is himself.

Given that he works with Xykon - who is all about himself - and MiTD - who is wavering in any commitment he has to Team Evil, and is not the sharpest knife in the drawer - who else is he going to rely on? Oona's too new to the team to have earned his full trust and confidence, though she's competent in her field of expertise.

[RMS Oceanic]

I'm still a little unclear in what that purpose was, though. Jirix and Xykon are well aware that the phylactery was found, lost, and found again, so it's not like the spy knew anything that Redcloak actually intended to keep secret.

The craftsman makes a little more sense, but still seems like overkill, given that he and Xykon are leaving soon anyway.

Anyone who witnessed the actual phylactery being recovered could potentially be used to uncover the switcheroo. It's overkill, but Redcloak will go quite far to avoid those strings being exposed, as Tsukiko shows.

[Dion]

Exactly. He gets rid of anything that could possibly trip up his plans. The only person he really trusts not to mess everything up is himself.

And let’s not kid ourselves. Double agents aren’t exactly known for their loyalty. Their natural proclivity for treachery is *why* they’re double agents in the first place. Once redcloak decided to burn his secret operation with the intention of keeping it secret forever, double agents were the standard place to start.

Redcloak’s heart might have softened a bit; he’s not nearly as cavalier with the lives of hobgoblins as he once was. But he’s still an evil overlord, and killing spies and double agents to protect your secrets is de rigueur.

[BaronOfHell]

I used to believe in RedCloak's reasoning to himself, and I was cheering for him.

I actually don't recall when I realized he was being delusional (for lack of a better word), but I guess the alternative is just too crushing for him to deal with.

Btw. I don't think Tsukiko was ever really useful to RC, it was only that it was an unnecessary risk to eliminate her before she herself became too big of a risk.
I also have a feeling that Xykon was close to considering replacing RedCloak about that point in time, it is only my interpretation, but perhaps RC personally getting Xykon's phylactery back was a huge step in rectifying the situation. At least to me it looks like Xykon is still not as "happy" about RedCloak as he was from the time after Dorukan's gate fell and until Team Evil conquered Azure City.

[Kornaki]

And let’s not kid ourselves. Double agents aren’t exactly known for their loyalty. Their natural proclivity for treachery is *why* they’re double agents in the first place. Once redcloak decided to burn his secret operation with the intention of keeping it secret forever, double agents were the standard place to start.

Redcloak’s heart might have softened a bit; he’s not nearly as cavalier with the lives of hobgoblins as he once was. But he’s still an evil overlord, and killing spies and double agents to protect your secrets is de rigueur.

A polymorphed goblin working in the human camp isn't a double agent, they're just an agent.

[Emanick]

A polymorphed goblin working in the human camp isn't a double agent, they're just an agent.

I think you’re confusing double agents and triple agents. All it takes to be a double agent is to pretend to work for one side while actually working for the other. That fits Redcloak’s polymorphed goblinoid spy, as far as I can tell.

[hungrycrow]

And let’s not kid ourselves. Double agents aren’t exactly known for their loyalty. Their natural proclivity for treachery is *why* they’re double agents in the first place. Once redcloak decided to burn his secret operation with the intention of keeping it secret forever, double agents were the standard place to start.

I don't see why a goblin willing to spy on humans would be particularly willing to rat out Redcloak. If anything he'd be better at keeping secrets.

That said, Redcloak is too ruthless to take chances anyways.

[Goblin_Priest]

I think you’re confusing double agents and triple agents. All it takes to be a double agent is to pretend to work for one side while actually working for the other. That fits Redcloak’s polymorphed goblinoid spy, as far as I can tell.

In the field of counterintelligence, a double agent (also double secret agent) is an employee of a secret intelligence service for one country, whose primary purpose is to spy on a target organization of another country, but who is now spying on their own country's organization for the target organization.[1]

You are just describing an agent, not a double agent.

[hroþila]

Regardless of the terminology, a spy who started spying on their own employer after being turned by a third party would be treacherous, but a spy who infiltrated an organization to spy on behalf of their original employer would not. The polymorphed spy was not untrustworthy.

[Dion]

I don't see why a goblin willing to spy on humans would be particularly willing to rat out Redcloak. If anything he'd be better at keeping secrets.

I suspect that with the right enticement, a goblin agent could find himself very willing to rat our Redcloak's secrets to Jyrix.

[hungrycrow]

I suspect that with the right enticement, a goblin agent could find himself very willing to rat our Redcloak's secrets to Jyrix.

Maybe, but he was loyal enough to the cause to risk his life and endure living with humans. And as a spy he would understand that certain information is on a need-to-know basis.

[fuschiawarrior]

Spies really are the most trustworthy people. Besides Jyrix with the right amount of violence the Goblin agent would rat out Redcloak to Xykon.

[BaronOfHell]

This Jyrix guy sounds really dangerous, is he one of Xykon's brothers or something?

[lowoki]

This Jyrix guy sounds really dangerous, is he one of Xykon's brothers or something?

Jyrix is Xykon's scary lawful good twin brother who likes to be nice and help people.

[Doug Lampert]

Jyrix is Xykon's scary lawful good twin brother who likes to be nice and help people.

No, no. Jyrix is Zyklon's LG twin brother. His arch-foe is a rouge named Hally.

[wumpus]

He needs to believe that he is important. He needs to be the hero, the brave, cunning underdog, the chosen prophet of the goblins' only god. Redcloak, and only Redcloak, will save goblinkind from the unjust world. He needs a good lie, because without it he'd just be a selfish, egotistical, ruthless monster pursuing his own goals at the expense of everyone ever to exist. Just like Xykon.

You seem to be under the illusion that Redcloak sees himself as good. He's seen his character sheet. He knows he's an NPC. He accepts that. Do you think he doesn't accept that line that says:
Alignment: Lawful Evil?

He (like Taquin and old Belkar) are perfectly aware of their villiany and happy with it. He might see himself as the hero of the Goblins (and may very well be seen as a hero from a long enough historical perspective. Many national heroes never were in the upper section of the alignment chart), but he knows he's very much Lawful Evil (or possibly Neutral Evil).

[Emanick]

You seem to be under the illusion that Redcloak sees himself as good. He's seen his character sheet. He knows he's an NPC. He accepts that. Do you think he doesn't accept that line that says:
Alignment: Lawful Evil?

He (like Taquin and old Belkar) are perfectly aware of their villiany and happy with it. He might see himself as the hero of the Goblins (and may very well be seen as a hero from a long enough historical perspective. Many national heroes never were in the upper section of the alignment chart), but he knows he's very much Lawful Evil (or possibly Neutral Evil).

I think Redcloak rejects the terms ‘Good’ or ‘Evil’ as meaningful, particularly given his belief that paladins are wicked and depraved hypocrites who have no problem slaughtering the innocent. Or rather, they might have some meaning, but more in a loose “these are two opposing teams” sense.

He fully identifies as a member of the Evil team, but he doesn’t believe that makes him the true moral inferior of a being whom a Detect Good spell would ping.

[Darth Paul]

Spies really are the most trustworthy people.

I'm not sure here whather you meant "are" or "aren't" the most trustworthy of people, but IRL, during World War 2, Britain's "20 Bureau", in charge of counter-espionage, was so successful at turning German spies that they couldn't believe, until after the war, how good they had really been. When they finally got a look at German records, it turned out they had suborned every single German spy in Britain, and had them feeding fake information back to Germany.

So, no matter how much he trusted his spy to live among the humans, among other goblinoids it was a different story. Whether by subterfuge, bribery, someone magically disguising themselves as Redcloak, magically reading the spy's mind, or... who knows what (do psionics exist in this world? he stilll wasn't sure), there was too much risk of information leaking out- specifically, the time frame between recovering the real phylactery and Redcloak handing the "phylactery" over to Xykon. Too many questions could be asked about what Redcloak was doing in the meantime. So the spy had to go.

By the way, the 20 Bureau was so named for the Roman numeral XX (Double Cross).

[Edric O]

Years ago, after I read SoD and Redcloak's character development in the battle for Azure City, I was 100% on board with his plan and I was totally cheering for him (see my sig, which is from those times). Today, I still think he's mostly right. Really, the only delusional aspect to his way of thinking is the fact that he's willing to risk destroying the world (and killing all existing goblinoids) for the sake of potential goblinoids in the next world. That is such an insane reckless gamble that it should be enough, by itself, to shift his alignment a few points away from fully Lawful.

But other than that? I don't see anything to indicate that he isn't really doing what is best for goblinoids. The conquest of Azure City and the founding of Gobbotopia were undoubtedly huge gains for goblinkind, and they happened thanks to Redcloak. Now, the story wants us to think that the best thing for goblinoids would be if Redcloak was just content with Gobbotopia and no longer pursued the Plan, but why? He left all his goblinoid followers back in Gobbotopia, where they were as safe as possible (literally safer than anyone else in the world), and under the competent rule of Jirix. In the bid for the last two Gates, he risked no goblin lives at all except his own (well, and the bugbears, now, but he ran into bugbears by accident; he didn't intend to put them in harm's way).

So, what is Redcloak doing now that is actually bad for the goblins? At this point he couldn't go back to Gobbotopia and abandon the Plan even if he wanted to, as that would require first defeating Xykon to prevent him from murdering all the goblins out of spite.

The way I see it, while Redcloak certainly did kill more goblins than Durkon, he also delivered on his promises. He created Gobbotopia, which represents the greatest golden age in goblinoid history, and everything he did afterwards was the only thing he could have done to keep Gobbotopia safe from Xykon. Redcloak may be delusional, but would a hypothetical non-delusional Redcloak who has nothing but the best interests of goblinoids in mind act any different? Not up to this point in the story, no.

The only difference between our Redcloak and a hypothetical non-delusional Redcloak is that the latter would be looking for ways to betray and destroy Xykon rather than find the Gate, so he might have taken Durkon's offer. But that point of divergence was, what, 20 minutes ago in-story? And even a perfectly rational Redcloak might have refused Durkon's offer simply because it's too risky to trust a former enemy who suddenly claims to have your best interests in mind (after all, Durkon provided no evidence for his claims).

In short, Redcloak's options are constrained by the existence of Xykon. As long as Xykon continues to exist, the best thing for goblinkind really is the thing that Redcloak is doing. Any better alternative would require first destroying Xykon.

[The Pilgrim]

But other than that? I don't see anything to indicate that he isn't really doing what is best for goblinoids. The conquest of Azure City and the founding of Gobbotopia were undoubtedly huge gains for goblinkind, and they happened thanks to Redcloak.

Yeah. Redcloak killed about one third of the hobgoblin population, and turned the rest into Crusade Bait for everyone else. Huge gains for Goblinkind.

The way I see it, while Redcloak certainly did kill more goblins than Durkon, he also delivered on his promises. He created Gobbotopia, which represents the greatest golden age in goblinoid history

As far as we have been shown, "Gobbtopia" is just a brutal regime with a few hobgoblins sitting over a ruined city, slavedriving hundreds of thousands of human slaves.

In short, Redcloak's options are constrained by the existence of Xykon. As long as Xykon continues to exist, the best thing for goblinkind really is the thing that Redcloak is doing. Any better alternative would require first destroying Xykon.

Xykon only exists because of Redcloak.

All Redcloak has done for Goblinkind is:

- Create a monster that likes to sacrifice goblinoid lives for his own amusement.
- Pursue a Divine Plan that puts the existence of all goblinoids at risk.
- Provoke a war in which thousands of goblinoids died and that has put a big Crusade Marker on their heads.

I very much doubt that the goblinoids are better now than before Redcloak.

[brian 333]

The OP is very close to right, in my opinion. The thing is, from Redcloak's PoV, the only trustworthy being is himself.

Craftsman might brag one day, spy might be made to talk. Even if it's 99.999% certain no one will blab, they can't be trusted. Only Redcloak is trustworthy; everyone else is a threat.

Xykon? A threat. He's useful. For now. Keep him happy, keep him distracted, and once he becomes more of a threat than he's worth, eliminate him.

Xykon knows this, and that's why he...

Spoiler

Show

geased MitD

[Lord Raziere]

Years ago, after I read SoD and Redcloak's character development in the battle for Azure City, I was 100% on board with his plan and I was totally cheering for him (see my sig, which is from those times). Today, I still think he's mostly right. Really, the only delusional aspect to his way of thinking is the fact that he's willing to risk destroying the world (and killing all existing goblinoids) for the sake of potential goblinoids in the next world. That is such an insane reckless gamble that it should be enough, by itself, to shift his alignment a few points away from fully Lawful.

But other than that? I don't see anything to indicate that he isn't really doing what is best for goblinoids. The conquest of Azure City and the founding of Gobbotopia were undoubtedly huge gains for goblinkind, and they happened thanks to Redcloak. Now, the story wants us to think that the best thing for goblinoids would be if Redcloak was just content with Gobbotopia and no longer pursued the Plan, but why? He left all his goblinoid followers back in Gobbotopia, where they were as safe as possible (literally safer than anyone else in the world), and under the competent rule of Jirix. In the bid for the last two Gates, he risked no goblin lives at all except his own (well, and the bugbears, now, but he ran into bugbears by accident; he didn't intend to put them in harm's way).

So, what is Redcloak doing now that is actually bad for the goblins? At this point he couldn't go back to Gobbotopia and abandon the Plan even if he wanted to, as that would require first defeating Xykon to prevent him from murdering all the goblins out of spite.

The way I see it, while Redcloak certainly did kill more goblins than Durkon, he also delivered on his promises. He created Gobbotopia, which represents the greatest golden age in goblinoid history, and everything he did afterwards was the only thing he could have done to keep Gobbotopia safe from Xykon. Redcloak may be delusional, but would a hypothetical non-delusional Redcloak who has nothing but the best interests of goblinoids in mind act any different? Not up to this point in the story, no.

The only difference between our Redcloak and a hypothetical non-delusional Redcloak is that the latter would be looking for ways to betray and destroy Xykon rather than find the Gate, so he might have taken Durkon's offer. But that point of divergence was, what, 20 minutes ago in-story? And even a perfectly rational Redcloak might have refused Durkon's offer simply because it's too risky to trust a former enemy who suddenly claims to have your best interests in mind (after all, Durkon provided no evidence for his claims).

In short, Redcloak's options are constrained by the existence of Xykon. As long as Xykon continues to exist, the best thing for goblinkind really is the thing that Redcloak is doing. Any better alternative would require first destroying Xykon.

Agreed. and given how Redcloak has the real phylactery? Its pretty much certain that Redcloak plans to betray Xykon after the Plan is done anyways because revenge for Right-Eye is a dish best served cold and Xykon has it coming. the difference between non-delusional and delusional Redcloak is whether he betrays Xykon now or after he goes through with it.

[hroþila]

Yeah. Redcloak killed about one third of the hobgoblin population, and turned the rest into Crusade Bait for everyone else. Huge gains for Goblinkind.

It's true that they'd be less of a target if they had known their place and stayed put.

Every hobgoblin we saw express an opinion on the idea of going to war and taking Azure City was fully on board with it, and it's not like Redcloak had made any efforts to win them over. And even as the most extremely negative appraisal of Redcloak's actions there, "getting someone killed by sending them to war" is not remotely the same as "killing someone".

As far as we have been shown, "Gobbtopia" is just a brutal regime with a few hobgoblins sitting over a ruined city, slavedriving hundreds of thousands of human slaves.

What?

[The Pilgrim]

It's true that they'd be less of a target if they had known their place and stayed put.

You are paraphrasing the speech invoked by one of the comic's Main Villiain for justifying himself in front of one of the comic's Main Heroes.

That should be indicative for you that there is something wrong in your way of reasoning.

Preventing yourself from butchering your neighbours does not means you are "knowing your place and staying put". It just means you are a reasonable person.