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2021-02-23, 09:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
Sure, LA +0 for the entomber. But it really only has the one ability, which can probably be a fairly reliable instant win for it (though freedom of movement, once again, screws it over). Otherwise, the ability modifiers are a little below par for an 8-HD melee monster, but the natural armor is pretty high, and the DR isn't nothing. But, if not for that one potent attack, this would be an easy -0 for me.
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2021-02-23, 10:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
I am disappointed by many things about this creature, but most of all that Entomber Assassins aren’t called Inhumers.
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
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2021-02-23, 10:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
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2021-02-23, 11:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
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2021-02-24, 02:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
8 HD? CR 5?
-0 from me. if it had less HD it might be +0.
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2021-02-24, 09:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
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2021-02-24, 09:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
Beast Strike feat will let you add your slam and its entomb rider to your unarmed strike so taking City Brawler barbarian at level 9 along with beast strike is a decent choice and works well with crusader. Bloodstorm Blade with Whirlwind Attack seems like a pretty amusing choice for entomber, 'throw' your unarmed strike at everyone and entomb them. Seems pretty similar to a tripper build that might be a fair comparison point. I will go +0 LA.
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2021-02-24, 09:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
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2021-02-24, 09:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2014
Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
-0 It is a neat gimmick but its a lot of bad HD to swallow. You cannot get 9ths as an initiator and that the best path for you. There is not enough there.
Last edited by Efrate; 2021-02-24 at 09:50 AM.
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2021-02-24, 09:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
Oh, by the way, Clerics have FoM by now, while Wizards, Druids, and Sorcerers have been using Heart of Water for the past three levels or so. Plus, your save bonuses are going to be horrible(forget Disintegrate, your Reflex saves aren't much better), ray spells still hit you effortlessly, and you really could have been something else instead of this. Like, say, an ogre. Heck, the ogre probably does better damage because of the larger size and likely twice the hit points.
Honestly "oh it has high natural armor and Str, clearly it must be good" is half the reason why casters are so overtuned in the first place.Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
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2021-02-24, 10:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
I feel like comparing anything like this to Tier 1 optimised casters is kinda pointless, though? The reason there's a 'compare to Tier 3 or near-as' general baseline is that basically nothing looks worthwhile compared to a RAW-optimised Cleric or Wizard.
I'm voting +0. It's usable as a brawler if you've got ways to increase the number of slams it's making, which various people have proposed.
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2021-02-24, 10:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
I think it was less "this compares poorly to T1" and more "the casters are using touch attacks against your Natural Armor" and "Freedom of Movement makes Entomb pointless".
But how many FoMs is the cleric going to be packing? Plus, not every encounter is going to include a cleric anyway. Remember we're rating these as potential PCs, not encounters. Pointing out individual spells that can counter you is kinda like saying a Human Illusionist is bad because True Seeing exists.Last edited by Debatra; 2021-02-24 at 10:24 AM.
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The LA Assignment Threads: Attempting to Make Monsters Playable Since 2016
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2021-02-24, 10:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
Nitpick: I would arguably say that illusionists are bad examples because you still have five other schools of magic to pull from anyways.
Of course, "Beguilers are useless because True Seeing and Mind Blank exist" isn't that great of an argument either.
Also yes, my point was more "the casters are using touch attacks against your Natural Armor" and "Freedom of Movement makes Entomb pointless" than "t1 casters". How (un)common are those in other classes, actually? Caster types still often have abilities your natural armor won't help with, at the least, and you're not much more protected from them than literally any other undead we've done so far.Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
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2021-02-24, 10:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Why am I here?
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2021-02-24, 10:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
...Can you make natural attacks in a pin? Don't think so at least, but if you can... maybe?
Not sure how useful that actually would be, but at least it sounds hilarious.Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
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2021-02-24, 11:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2021
Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
Last edited by NotInventedHere; 2021-02-24 at 11:18 AM.
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2021-02-24, 11:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
See, I don't think it is good. I'm it's damage won't keep up with a comparable front line. It's hp and saves are trash compared to a front line. It's comparison point is a spiked chain lockdown fighter. Which is t5.. the only other comparison that might be comparable is stunning fist focused monk... But I have to compare this to a crusader, warblade or totemist. Crusader and warblade you are dealing far less damage and won't hit ninth level maneuvers. You have higher armor class, which is good, but only slightly. You have far fewer natural attacks and your grapple is lower than the others. All you have is entomb. I would take entomb over three soulmelds, and probably over most of the stances. But. That's where it stops. So it compares favorably to totemist, maybe? I think that at level 11, with it having three class levels I would enjoy it over a totemist. But what is totemist's tier even?
If totemist is a comparable tier, then my vote doesn't change. If it is not, then I might have to go -0.
Speech is a concern as a pc, but various sign languages exist, and you can play charades until the DM caves. Not to mention you might be able to speak if your mouth is unbound.
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2021-02-24, 11:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2017
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2021-02-24, 11:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
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Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
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2021-02-24, 12:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2018
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- Seattle, WA
Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
Totemist is definitely T3, Incarnate is the T4 meldshaper IIRC. Totemists get all sorts of attack and mobility options; enough to compete on level ground with the martial initiators. Incarnates get lots of utility options and have excellent day-to-day flexibility, but lack the combat power of Totemists' soulmelds.
Originally Posted by Darths & DroidsOptimization Trophies
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2021-02-24, 12:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2016
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
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Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
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2021-02-24, 01:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2013
Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
11 Natural Armor with no Dexterity penalty is not "slightly" higher or "slightly" good. You are nearly immune to any non-Touch Attack roll with a 60% or less chance of hitting a normal character, which is the majority of damage taken in most campaigns. DMs, last I checked, weren't in the habit of throwing piles of caster-type monsters and Touch Attacks at people. And your saves aren't terrible. Your Will save is ridiculous compared to a normal Crusader, you have no disadvantage to Reflex saves, and 80% or more of Fortitude saves in the game do nothing to you.
Note again that Entomb is a rider. Without usage limits. Meaning that going for an Initiator gives you a save-or-lose on every single Strike. Against the infamously-reliable Reflex save. It takes a CR 20 Old Red Dragon to get to 50% chance of failure for your listed-on-the-statblock DC of 16. You are literally more needy of Attack roll bonuses than save DC against most of the game, and still get a +3 there. This is not Chain Tripping, you are actually doing damage in the process, even if it is not excellent damage.
And two Maneuver levels is not exactly insurmountable. The difference between Elder and Ancient Mountain Hammer is 6d6 damage, which is easily made up with dragging out an extra turn or two of combat, which is what Entomb is for. You miss out on +10 DR/Adamantine from Adamantine Bones vs Iron Bones, but you're getting hit by non-Touch attack rolls much less than half as often as a normal character, so for things DR matters for you're still taking vastly less damage.
Overall, it seems you trade something like a third of an Initiator's normal damage at most and about as much durability to relatively few things for doubling or more your durability to everything else and a decently reliable waste of at least three turns as rider to all Strikes.
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2021-02-24, 02:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2018
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
A better comparison might actually be Warlock. Entomb is comparable to Noxious Blast (one of the best invocations period); Noxious Blast has a better duration (much better if they can teleport out) but still allows move actions, targets a stronger save, creatures can be immune to it, and it's affected by SR unless you invested a feat. Plus, the Entomber gets Entomb 3 levels earlier. The Entomber's natural armor is much better protection than Entropic Ward or Darkness against attacks, but doesn't help against touch spells and can't shelter party members. Both have relatively low BAB, but comparatively good to-hit (high STR and targeting touch AC respectively). The Warlock gets dimension door and/or flight; the Entomber has a burrow speed. The Warlock has range,
but if they want to be making multiple SOLs per round they need to be in melee anyway (Eldritch Claws and Eldritch Glaive are both melee), and the Entomber has better HP and melee durabilityforgot about Eldritch Chain/Eldritch Cone; Warlock has better range period.
The Warlock will have more tricks, but the Entomber can make those up with Incarnum and/or ToB because the Entomber came online earlier. The Warlock has much better range without Bloodstorm Blade/blood wind tricks, but all in all I think the Entomber compares well enough for +0.Last edited by PoeticallyPsyco; 2021-02-24 at 02:20 PM.
Originally Posted by Darths & DroidsOptimization Trophies
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2021-02-24, 03:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
Entomb doesn't actually say how deep you are putting said creature underground beyond shallow grave which is technically anything under 6' deep.
I am confused what you are trying to insinuate here, it seems like you are trying to claim entomb works on any attack you make since it is a rider. However, it expressly only works on its slam attack. Sure as an initiator I can use any strike maneuver I want on my slam but its still a slam attack at the end of the day.
I keep forgetting that beast strike isn't in one of the eberron books, that does make it less good. However, if Dragon Mag feats are in play its still a great option.
A psychic Warrior tripper is probably the best comparison point which is tier 3 and has similar function. I am not familiar enough with psychic warrior to do a full blown comparison. However reading through the handbook, I lean towards the psychic warrior. If we have say wolf totem Barbarian 2/psychic warrior 6 I believe the psychic warrior is tripping at least as often if not more so, doing more damage, with a +2 con mod has similar hp, and depending on its power choice either has similar ac or is much much more versatile in and out of combat than the entomber.
Similarly Totemist is clearly a better all around choice than the entomber they can be a really nasty natural attack blender doing much more damage on days they are setup for for combat then set themselves up to be a skill monkey the next day when you are searching for clues on your next mission.
Running through everything I think entomber has a slight advantage over tier 4 and 5 classes and seems slightly under par compared to most tier 3 classes though only slightly. That seems like +0 territory to me.Last edited by liquidformat; 2021-02-24 at 03:34 PM.
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2021-02-24, 04:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
Chain Tripping deals damage, and is a two handed weapon, thus allowing them to deal great damage (its not ubercharger damage).
Dragons are usually one of the worst high CR opponents to compare ref saves to. Most of them have a 10 dexterity, while having a high CR by comparison. Usually if you want to compare ref saves to CR you want to compare to Monstrous Humanoids, Magical Beasts, and Outsiders. I am not saying that it won't proc often, it will. But Old Red Dragons are a very bad comparison point here. The Balor at CR 20 will fail the same DC only on a natural 1. The Chronotryn from Fiend Folio is a CR 19 Magical Beast and would only fail the listed DC on a natural 1. The Jackal Lord at CR 8 has a 50% chance of failure. Sure there are high CR enemies that will fail their save, but you can find that with any saving throw.
But the main thing here that we need to talk about is the defense.
1. You are immune to many status afflictions
2. You have DR 5 against a somewhat rare material
3. You have +11 natural armor
These add up significantly; however you also have
1. Dangers that other creatures do not face, namely the many anti undead tactics, which there are more of than anti humanoid tactics simply by virtue of there being drastically more undead.
2. Your Hit points are tanked hard. Now I have in the past been one to say that it usually doesn't matter too much when it comes to undead hit points. And usually it doesn't. However unlike many of the undead that I have stated this with, comparing the Entomber to a same leveled Crusader. Your will save is great! But it doesn't matter since your immune to probably 90% of will saves. Your fort save is trash, but it doesn't matter since your immune to probably 90% of fort saves. Your ref is the same as the crusader. Your touch ac is the same as the crusader. Meaning against Reflex saves and touch attacks you are as vulnerable as the crusader, except the crusader has their Hit Point buffer. Let's compare level 9. 8d12 + 1d10, average to 67 hit points. A human crusader with a starting 14 con will have a +2 con item at the very least. 9d10+27 is an average of 85 hit points. that his 18 hit points, or on average 5d6 worth of damage.
Monsters in your campaigns seem to favor direct attacks, however not all campaigns are treated similarly. In the campaign I am running, spellcasters usually end up as Boss monsters, yes. But at around level 11-13 I start including weaker spellcasters that have third level spells and reserve feats. (I like using Fiery Burst with my trash mobs)
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2021-02-24, 04:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
This probably shows how little we use FoM in our games, but would that negate being buried and requiring actions to be dug out?
Does FoM make you immune to cave-ins etc?
Not trying to be funny, just honestly not sure.My winning competition entries: Kinvig Arrumskor | The Great Pumpkinhead | Wynfrith d'Acker
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2021-02-24, 04:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2017
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2021-02-24, 04:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2014
Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
This seems to be dependent on reading it as "you can move normally regardless of literally anything that would say otherwise". It definitely protects against grapples and magic that impedes movement, for sure. I'd agree that it lets you ignore difficult terrain - it obviously works on how water impedes your movements, after all. I do not agree that it gives you effective incorporeality - it only lets you auto-succeed on Escape Artist checks to resist/escape grapples, not on the kind of Escape Artist checks that let you squeeze through walls of force.
A bit more to the point, even if we agreed that it's RAW (which we don't), we can at least agree that it's definitely not RAI, and in a thread based around assigning LA to monsters with no RAW LA, interpreting monster abilities based on how they interact with pure RAW instead of RAI seems counterintuitive to me. Interpreting Entomber on the assumption that RAW FoM is in play isn't being fair to Entomber, because any DM that plays with "by RAW, FoM is cave-in immunity" isn't going to allow you to play an Entomber in the first place because they don't have LA.
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2021-02-24, 09:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
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2021-02-25, 01:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters
I don't think this really counts against the Entomber considering how narrow it is anyways, but do Boots of Sidestepping help against the Entomb ability? It requires a Reflex save, and the boots let you take a 5 ft. step as an immediate action when exposed to such effects - and if you get outside the area of the attack, it's negated. Wouldn't help against the actual slam, I think, and there's like a bazillion other options for that slot(assuming your target has magic items in the first place, or for that matter feet), but it just seems like an interesting side effect.
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
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Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
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