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    Default The LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Before anything else, let me once again thank Inevitability for running these threads over the last five years. I hope to hold up to the standard he set.

    New Archive Link

    We'll be starting this one off with Libris Mortis, AKA "The Book of Bad Latin". As you might expect, this one is packed with various undead monstrosities. And this first one is... something...

    On asterisk ratings:
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    The asterisk is not necessarily 'this will be tricky to normally use'. It denotes 'this has an ability that would be completely broken if allowed, and the rating assumes you remove it'.

    The problem with 'low movement speed' and 'has to find a host' is that there's no real trait to remove. Take away 1 ft. movement and... replace it with a basic human walking pace? Remove the symbiont's power restrictions when unattached? There's no obvious way to remove

    Furthermore: we've rated monsters that wouldn't fit in most dungeons, monsters that need water to breathe, monsters that die from water, monsters that would get run out of any civilized place, and monsters that explode if you leave them out in the sun. None of those traits got them asterisk-ed, because the underlying assumption that they'd only be played in the campaigns that could accommodate them.

    What monsters did get an asterisk? Those whose abilities would innately and effortlessly disrupt any campaign. A dryad can't be used in any campaign that involves 'going places'. A shadow can't be used in any campaign that involves interaction with humanoids. An efreet can't be used in any campaign that involves, well, the PCs having goals.
    .

    Angel of Decay

    Despite the name and appearance, Angels of Decay are not in fact undead angels. Well, they don't have to be.

    My breakdowns are going to be a bit more detailed than Inevitability's were, though not quite as thorough as Thurbane likes to get.

    Size & Type: Large Undead
    HD: 26 - That's right folks, we're already starting off Epic. Need I say more? Well let's keep going anyway.
    Speed: 30' land, 50' fly (poor)
    Ability Scores: Str +26, Dex +4, Con -, Int +10, Wis +10, Cha +8
    Natural Armor: 13
    Natural Weapons: Two Primary claws (2d6), two secondary wing slams (1d6)
    Skill List: Concentration, Diplomacy, Hide, K: Arcana, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival
    Body Shape: Humanoid
    Speech (Languages): Yes (Common, Abyssal)
    CR: 15
    WotC LA: -
    Our LA: -0

    You've got DR 10/adamantine and magic, SR 24 (good for its CR, irrelevant for its ECL), 60' darkvision, and Unholy Grace (Cha to AC and saves). If it hits the same thing at least twice in one round, its Rotting Touch deals an extra 1d6+6 damage and heals it for 5. It also has a party-unfriendly Rotting Aura with no apparent way to turn it off. Each round, any corporeal creature standing on the ground within 15' takes 5d6, Reflex for half. Regardless of that save, they also have to make a will save or be nauseated for the round. Like its touch, the aura heals it for 5 whenever it damages something.
    Last edited by Debatra; 2021-06-01 at 12:12 AM.
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    Post Re: The LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monster

    Thanks for taking over Debatra, much appreciated.

    • Large Undead (with reach)
    • 26 RHD - ouch! (d12 HD, 1 good save, poor BAB, 4 skill points/"level")
    • Speed 30 ft, fly 50 ft (poor): not bad, but everyone should be able to fly at this level of play.
    • +13 natural AC, Cha bonus as deflection to AC: not bad.
    • 2 claws 2d6, 2 wing slams 1d6.
    • Rotting aura: 15 foot aura that requires a Ref save to avoid 5d6 damage (and heals the creature for 5), and a Fort save to avoid being nauseated for 1 round. Not bad, and always on.
    • Rotting touch: rider effect if you hit with more than one natural weapon - 1d6+6 damage to the opponent, and you heal 5. Like most of its abilities, OK, but not at this level of play.
    • DR 10/adamantine and magic: not bad.
    • Darkvision 60 ft.
    • SR 24: not very impressive at this level of play.
    • Undead traits: usual immunities and drawbacks.
    • Unholy grace: Cha bonus to AC and saves. Not bad. Would have been nicer if you got your Cha bonus to hp per HD.
    • Str +26, Dex +4, Con --, Int +10, Wis +10, Cha +8: net +58, with one non-ability. Would be much more impressive if you weren't starting at epic levels.
    • OK-ish racial skill list.

    Large humanoid in form, has hands and can speak - so no real issues there.

    This is a pretty straightforward melee bruiser type. Only issue is this 26 HD. This might make for an OK CR 15 encounter (although even there I suspect it would get curb stomped by the average ECL 15 party of four).

    Easy LA -0 due to sheer number of HD. You will not be a viable epic character, I'm afraid. If you halved the number of HD, or thereabouts, would be interesting.

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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monster

    Thanks for taking over!

    Much like the NoOneIsGonnaReadThisAnyway Copper Dragon (of archive fame), this has just too many hit dice to get anywhere reasonable. -0, naturally.

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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monster

    Thanks again for picking up the reins, Debatra.

    Libris Mortis starts out with two of the most repulsive monsters in existence, and the next several after that are also pretty gross. These creatures have no appeal for me, even as monster encounters to run as a DM: they're just too icky for me.

    But, I agree with Thurbane: LA -0 is good for the angel of decay. I've never played or DMed for an epic game before, but as I understand it, a monster has to have something really spectacular, or at least have a degree of versatility, to make an interesting PC at epic levels. But, the angel of decay really just gets an array of basic monster features, with only a couple mildly unique effects in the mix. Nausea as a passive area effect and self-healing as a rider on your melee attacks are pretty neat features for a melee character, but I don't think it's enough here.

    Thurbane, do you think the angel of decay is designed specifically to be a "Very Difficult" encounter (i.e., used against a party with ECL 1 to 4 levels below the CR)? Level 15 is mostly outside of my personal experience as a DM or player, but this monster seems like it would be a potent boss monster for a party of ECL 12 or 13.

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    Thumbs up Re: The LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monster

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jay View Post
    Thurbane, do you think the angel of decay is designed specifically to be a "Very Difficult" encounter (i.e., used against a party with ECL 1 to 4 levels below the CR)? Level 15 is mostly outside of my personal experience as a DM or player, but this monster seems like it would be a potent boss monster for a party of ECL 12 or 13.
    I think a well built ECL 12-13 party should be able to handle one of these as a tough encounter, yeah.

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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monster

    I actually recall these being basically elite mooks in the final area of an Atropus campaign suggested in Elder Evils - specifically, on Atropus itself. I suppose nightcrawlers would have been a bit too excessive, though.

    Also yeah, LA -0; thread title couldn't be more appropriate for this one.
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monster

    Usually a lurker in these threads, but necromancers are my jam, and this is my butter. -0 no arguments here.
    I eagerly await the Bleakborn and Brain in a Jar. Those ones I expect to have some discussion, and I've done some things with both of em as cohorts.
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monster

    -0 26 bad HD killed any hope. They are kind of slacking at their CR let alone at their HD. A boss for like an 11 to 13 party might be okay but at 15 it's just a bruiser and bruisers need to be very special to hold up.

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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monster

    Thanks a lot for taking over!

    I think this is an easy -0

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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monster

    Thanks for taking over, I have a good feeling you'll do nicely. That being said, there's nothing good about this creature for epic levels. -0
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monster

    It's a big beat stick. +0.
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monster

    Quote Originally Posted by Asmotherion View Post
    It's a big beat stick. +0.
    It has 26 undead HD. +0 is probably too high.
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monster

    Rather obviously LA -0 as-is.

    I'm kind of wondering what would be a sensible 21+RHD monster in a more normal CR range, to be perfectly honest. This is actually a pretty good starting point for such an exercise, given the innate no-cost (Ex) Flight and health recovery, right alongside ability score concentration and passive SR. The issue it faces in turning it into a PC is that the only scaling here is save DCs and Unholy Grace, and Undead RHD are extremely bad.

    But a major thing that tends to be passed up in these threads is that all these monsters that have CR-appropriate AC with bloated hit dice get that AC on top of all their items. So you throw on your Epic armor as per usual and... Have +19 AC over a "blank" character in your niche, from the Natural Armor, Dexterity, and your bonus Charisma. So you literally roll over the die completely an entire extra time on your armor class, in the event you can match the other sources of armor class. And if not, well, you would most definitely be overpowered if that wasn't the case because you'd be guaranteed that any sensible encounter only hits you on a natural 20.

    Similarly, the massive Strength bonuses translate to per-hit damage, meaning you inbuild 13 damage per hit, and the four Natural Attacks are usually superior to 20 pre-Epic BAB because of fewer iterative penalties. A standard character needs ~4d6 or 2d12 damage per hit from features to recoup that difference, and will ironically usually have fewer hits because this thing has a full +26 to attack rolls baseline and runs on Natural Attacks, where an actual Epic character has +23 BAB. Granted, getting an extra +3 to attack rolls from class features is so trivial Fighters can do it, but it's still an angle to work with.

    The core problem is that, while its chassis is quite likely to be solid for its RHD-determined ECL, it doesn't do anywhere near enough with it. 15 ft. radius is terrible, needing to touch the ground is silly, and the damage doesn't really plug into anything. Rotting Touch being per-hit would do a solid amount to help, as would being in ratio healing... Like the Bleakborn all of three entries later that's CR 7 and 8 RHD. And, of course, things outside combat to do. Probably based on spawn, or Disintegration-like properties from decaying all sorts of random objects.

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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monster

    Well... fair about the AC. A fraction of the WBL of a 27th-level PC would be sufficient to pump your AC into the low 50s.

    Attack bonus is... less than stellar, though, and you can literally buy flight and that much SR with items at the CR of this thing.
    Last edited by danielxcutter; 2021-01-02 at 09:55 AM.
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    Default Re: The LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monster

    For fear of rushing through things, I think we all knew this was going to end up at -0 anyway. Updating the archive and bringing in the next (thankfully non-Epic) momentarily.
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Atropal Scion

    So what happens when a "stillborn godling" gets raised as an undead? Well this is what happens to the remnants of those abominations if any pieces survive.

    Size & Type: Medium Undead
    HD: 9
    Speed: 30' fly (not specified... average I guess?)
    Ability Scores: Str +2, Dex +4, Con -, Int +6, Wis +12, Cha +10 - Net +34, no penalties
    Natural Armor: 8
    Natural Weapons: One Primary slam (1d8)
    Skill List: K: Arcana, K: Religion, Listen, Move Silently, Spot
    Body Shape: ...The flavor text says "wet, wrinkled and bloated humanoid body", but look at that image. At the very least, it appears to have hand-like appendages that could be used for spellcasting.
    Speech (Languages): Yes (Common, Abyssal, Infernal, Celestial)
    CR: 11
    WotC LA: -
    Our LA: +1* (uncapped Spawn ability)

    DR 10/adamantine, Fast Healing 8, and Unholy Grace give it some decent durability. 60' Darkvision is always handy. It can also Rebuke/Command Undead as a Cleric of its HD. (Though the table says it can only do so five times per day instead of eight, which would be the normal for 3+ChaMod. The Errata is silent on this.) It also has a Cha-based save-or-die for a gaze attack with a 60' range. (And not one of those "target only" gazes that we've been seeing lately; the normal "if you look at it" kind.) Humanoids that die from it become wights 24 hours later. Wights that are not specifically under the Atropal Scion's control.

    This thing is meant for necromancy, and its SLAs mostly focus on that. All are 3/day at CL9: Animate Dead, Create Undead, Cone of Cold, Desecrate, Dispel Magic, Invisibility, Plane Shift, Speak With Dead, Teleport. Save DCs are Int-based.

    And now for the mixed bag. Don't you love party-unfriendly passives that you can't turn off? It has a Negative Energy Aura out to a frankly nuts 60' radius. Undead (including itself) in the aura get Turn Resistance +4 and Fast Healing 5. Nice for friendly/controlled undead, but there isn't a listed exception for its own Rebuke ability. Living creatures in the aura get two negative levels, so I hope the rest of the party is protected from those. Fortunately, the aura is also blocked by Protection From Evil, so that's a little easier. At the Scion's option, any creature (not just humanoids this time) that dies from these negative levels rise as a Wight that is under its control a minute later.

    Great for an undead party, much less so if anyone is alive. Though permanent Protection From Evil is already handy when available because of the protection from compulsions; custom magic items like that are technically RAW, but we also all know they can be a sticking point at some tables. Needing to be constantly protected from Death on the other hand... At least gaze attacks can be turned off when not otherwise specified.
    Last edited by Debatra; 2021-01-09 at 02:01 AM.
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    DM - "So, I encourage creative character concepts, and I'll try and set stats to represent pretty much whoever you decide you want to be in my game. 3.5 is a pretty open-ended system that really allows for diverse builds, and I aim to allow for that where I can. Seriously, go nuts..."
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    I honestly don't think these threads were ever intended for new players. I personally haven't had much experience with playing but I've tinkered around with the system for quite a while, and I don't think I'd go with most of these even if they were allowed(and playable, for that matter). For most players, "unusual" would probably be some flavor of goblinoid or undead, maybe a dragon. The reanimated debris of an undead fetus god isn't going to be that high of a priority.

    Really, sometimes I feel some of the veterans are the rough equivalent of Dark Souls players who've been doing naked runs because they're bored with the base game.
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Oh, I play a pretty low-op roleplayish table and my campaigns tend to be a bit odd, so I totally allow new people to play stuff off these threads if they want to. If you die, you die, but helping my players design really specific lower level builds is a kind of ongoing minigame I really enjoy away from the table.

    Memorably, LA reassigned Worg worked really well a year or so ago and let someone play a really different kind of barbarian character that was pretty fun.
    While I aim to please, I'd struggle a bit with an Atrophal Scion though :)
    Last edited by Dalmosh; 2021-01-03 at 02:55 AM.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    This is an odd choice at best. It's also doesnt have a variety of clear paths. Its abilities are powerful for a party of necropolitons, and you almost need to be undead just so an unlucky dispel does not end you. You have great stats if somewhat unfocused. Your abilities lend towards minionmancy, and are reasonably powerful. Dread necromancer seems maybe the only solid path, with some flavor of undead bard also maybe doable.

    Still pretty good undead minionmancy out the box with no component cost means most encounters are just extending your army. I think like a +2, because assuming a competent party built so you are not a detriment, it has near limitless minionmancy and stellar stats and tons of great stuff. Not sure however and I am swayable.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    This is honestly weird because it has a lot of things it can pull off and it's not hard have one of these lead a small army even straight out of the box, but it doesn't really scale and worse, undead-based minionmancy kinda drops off pretty fast and hard from what I hear.

    Also regarding the flight: there's an evolved Atropal Scion in Elder Evils and it has the flight listed as good mobility. It's kind of odd though; the CL of the SLAs are all at level 20 and the DCs seem to be Cha-based(which goes against what Debrata said about them being Int-based, though it's probably the Book of Bad Latin also having a bad problem with typos IMO).
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Yeah I am on the fence, at level this thing is very powerful but its not going to scale well and starting your arcane class at level 9+ means it is going to really suck, even though it has some amazing mental stats its going to be hard to utilize them. Going Ur-Priest is probably one of the only options for this thing to not be completely useless. But as far as LA I am on the fence, it is pretty nasty at level 9 a lot of those SLAs a standard caster is only getting at level 9 ish and create undead you are getting early access to but you also only have 9 spells that can be cast a total of 18 times a day and over a third of them aren't combat spells. The Gaze and the aura are nasty passive weapons but they are nasty to everyone and you really need a team designed to cope with them so they are a mixed bag.

    All and all I am floating between +0 and +1, I think I will go with +1 LA though I am open to changing that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morphic tide View Post
    I'm kind of wondering what would be a sensible 21+RHD monster in a more normal CR range, to be perfectly honest. This is actually a pretty good starting point for such an exercise, given the innate no-cost (Ex) Flight and health recovery, right alongside ability score concentration and passive SR. The issue it faces in turning it into a PC is that the only scaling here is save DCs and Unholy Grace, and Undead RHD are extremely bad.
    Take a look at the high level outsiders from MM most of them are quite powerful for their RHD and are a good baseline for what type of abilities a monster should have to be appropriate for its ECL.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    For the Atropal Scion, I'll vote LA +0 for the mess that is progressing it. There's definitely some work you can do with other boosting mechanics, but when the general consensus is that you're going Ur-Priest or else be stuck dumpster-diving, the thing's really going to hurt in much of actual play.

    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    Take a look at the high level outsiders from MM most of them are quite powerful for their RHD and are a good baseline for what type of abilities a monster should have to be appropriate for its ECL.
    The issue is that they are in fact powerful for the RHD, without equipment. Most of the low-Epic outsiders can readily eat LA ratings because of this, because they have the numbers you expect from a low-Epic character once you correct the feats, before you put on the gear that will stack with basically everything they do innately in some capacity. The exercise in question is measuring creatures with RHD well in excess of CR such that PC itemization and feat selection alongside "hooks" for progression readily "fill in" the difference to generate a reasonable LA +0 character.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    And the winner for most disgusting monster in all of D&D is...

    This monster actually has a pretty good range of things it can do. You could even build this thing for melee and still come out okay, because its defenses are solid and its passive abilities are potent. I agree with Debatra that the atropal scion has hands and can wield weapons, so that helps it out too. Even advancing as a marshal with an undead army would be a pretty solid choice for this monster (if you're okay using almost exclusively passive abilities, and using your actions to command troops).

    It will be tough fitting this guy into most parties, but when it fits with the party, it will be quite good. I think I'll agree with Efrate and vote LA +2 for the atropal scion. LA +1 might also work, but since it has a potentially volatile suite of abilities, I'd prefer to vote conservatively.

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    Post Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Atropal Scion

    • Medium Undead.
    • 9 RHD (d12 HD, 1 good save, poor BAB, 4 skill points/"level").
    • Fly 30 ft (no manoeuvrability listed - I assume being supernatural flight, Perfect would be apt).
    • +8 natural AC, Cha bonus as deflection - decent.
    • Slam 1d8.
    • Death gaze: 60 ft save-or-die non-discriminatory gaze attack. May result in uncontrolled wights, but you do have rebuke.
    • Negative energy aura: grant turn resistance and fast healing to undead in a 60 ft radius; inflicts virtual loss of 2 levels of living creatures unless they are protected. Low level humanoids can become wights under your control.
    • SLAs: 3/day - animate dead, create undead, cone of cold (DC 18), desecrate, dispel magic, invisibility, plane shift, speak with dead, teleport; CL 9. Decent set of SLAs, especially good for minionmancy.
    • DR 10/adamantine - quite good.
    • Darkvision 60 ft.
    • Fast healing 8 - pretty decent.
    • Rebuke undead 5/day - good. You can take Devotion Feats or similar to make this more worthwhile.
    • Undead traits: usual immunities and drawbacks.
    • Unholy grace: Cha bonus to AC and saves. Good. Seems like Unholy Grace is a lot more common in this book than Unholy Toughness.
    • Str +2, Dex +4, Con --, Int +6, Wis +12, Cha +10: net +34, one non-ability. Nice.
    • Small racial skill list: has some decent stuff, but with +6 Int and 4 skill points per HD etc. probably going to end up taking some cross class ranks.

    Basically humanoid in form, and I guess it has limbs/hands from the illustration? Can speak.

    Mainly good for it's SLAs and special attacks. Also has decent resilience for an undead. 9 RHD is a lot, but maybe you could slip into a fast-progression casting PrC? Or something that will increase the pool of undead you can control, like Horned Harbinger.

    I'm going to agree with LA +2 (though I could be swayed to a strong LA +1): a lot of potential for minionmancy - but not a great deal else, though.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    So far we have six votes for +2 (two of which also say it may be a strong +1 and one that might go higher), one vote for +1 , and three votes for +0.

    No, this isn't the final tally yet. While I ideally want to post here at least once a day, the first monster being settled in that time was just because it was so obviously not suited for Epic-level play. Other creatures, like this one, definitely warrant a bit more time for discussion.
    Last edited by Debatra; 2021-01-05 at 04:17 PM.
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    +0 from me. Its okay at first but doesn't progress well.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    With its good stat boosts and SLAs and its excellent defensive capabilities, all for just 9 undead RHD (hardly a bad thing at all), I'm also inclined to say LA +2.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    The problem with LA +2 is where are you going? Because your minionmancy is coming from SLAs, you can't just take a class to move forward from them, you have to go dumpster-diving like mad to find anything that directly improves them. Sure, you're ridiculously capable in combat, but you have no solid tools for non-combat interaction outside skill checks, and actually need to invest quite a bit into not instantly killing large swaths of the population of any settlement you enter. Which, even for Genocidal Evil that wants the huge masses of Wights, is a problem for depriving the rest of the party of any relevant services.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Morphic tide View Post
    The problem with LA +2 is where are you going? Because your minionmancy is coming from SLAs, you can't just take a class to move forward from them, you have to go dumpster-diving like mad to find anything that directly improves them. Sure, you're ridiculously capable in combat, but you have no solid tools for non-combat interaction outside skill checks, and actually need to invest quite a bit into not instantly killing large swaths of the population of any settlement you enter. Which, even for Genocidal Evil that wants the huge masses of Wights, is a problem for depriving the rest of the party of any relevant services.
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