LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

[AvatarVecna]

No, it's a solid comparison if you aren't splatbook diving to remove your weaknesses. Just because a Rogue has the option to do trivially so because somebody at some point in WotC decided to shut off their counters doesn't mean it's legitimately expected. This is why I almost always talk in terms of basic SRD gear when coming up with comparison points, because that is a normal assumption to make and expected gameplay mechanics.

...also I'm pretty sure I missed the base 10 AC. So the thing trivially reaches AC 53 to be a tough job for a goddamn Solar swinging at it in exchange for -5 to-hit and not getting Enhancement bonus from its weapon. The core defenses on this thing are insane.

For a more standard gaming set-up, I agree that sources are important. A game can't just assume that you can combine whatever unholy options across a half-dozen splats and expect there to be zero problems at the table. But a couple counterarguments:

1) Just because those options won't be allowed at some tables, doesn't mean we should assume they're allowed at no tables. It makes just as little sense to assume dumpster diving is perfectly allowed as it makes to assume that we're working with Core only. Most games just aren't going to run like either of those, and the edition is built around the idea of Core + a small selection of other books will be allowed at any given table (not the same small selection from table to table, but...yeah).

2) "That's only if you're playing a weird game, a real table wouldn't allow such diverse sources" is a textbook No True Scotsman argument, where any example of it actually being allowed is dismissed as an irrelevant outlier.

3) "That's only if you're playing a weird game, a real table wouldn't allow such diverse sources." Yeah well this is in regards to judging what LA to recommend to a DM who is considering letting their player play the world's smartest bone slinky. We aren't giving advice for (what you consider to be) a normal game in the first place.

I dunno about you, but I'm defaulting in these threads to assuming a DM that's not gonna tolerate general cheese, but isn't imposing source restrictions. Mechanics get banned, not books, because that reflects the games I've played in, and especially reflects the games I've played in where playing a weird monster might've been allowed.

[danielxcutter]

Actually, are there things that let you Sneak Attack in this book? Seems like they’d be here if nowhere else, even if they were republished in later books like the MIC.

[AvatarVecna]

Not dying does very little on its own since the enemies can just go around you and stab the wizard. It’s why Incarnates aren’t that high-tier.

Also now that I think of it some of the default immunities in this edition are weird. Rogue without Sneak Attack is an Expert with better weapon proficiencies. Ignoring the LA of this thing for now, I don’t think that’s exactly good gameplay design. Enchanters at least can cast spells from the schools they didn’t bar...

I mean, on the one hand, roles are a thing, as is role protection. Despite the reality of the game not reflecting it, designer intention is that rogues aren't primary combatants, rogues are skillmonkeys first and foremost, who happen to have an ability that lets them sometimes contribute in the murder game under special circumstances. But having a bunch of creature types that are by-default immune isn't the designers taking the rogue away from their primary role, it's just that those are cases where the designers aren't allowing rogue to encroach on the fighter's domain. Or at least, that's the intention. The reality of things is very different.

On the other hand, saying "the immunities make sense for the game they tried to make" doesn't excuse the fact that the rest of the game they made makes fighter a generally poor choice for being the primary combatant, even in comparison to something like rogue that doesn't get spells. X may have been designed to make the game function like Y, but the game functions like Z and in a Z game X is counterproductive. This one part matching designer intention isn't an excuse for being a poor fit for the rest of the actual results games have to deal with.

On the other other hand, "Enchanters at least can cast spells from the schools they didn’t bar". Yeah sucks that noncasters get shut down more easily than casters do, by virtue of having far fewer options so that when the few they do have get shut down, they don't have reliable alteratives. Scalding hot take there.

[Morphic tide]

Not dying does very little on its own since the enemies can just go around you and stab the wizard. It’s why Incarnates aren’t that high-tier.

Except that your offensive properties as a grappler are unaffected by this, meaning you can continue perfectly disabling one enemy from doing anything but futile attempts at getting you off of them, which can very readily be the dominant Wizard-stabber, so unless you're in a horde encounter your "just not dying" is in fact likely to be locking down an otherwise serious threat, especially as the aforementioned attack roll penalties do nothing to your Grapple check to keep the target disabled and progress to murdering them without a save.

And you are still a Huge creature with +20 Strength. It is not outside the picture for you to be tripping Anceint Dragons when they attempt to get into melee with your Wizard, if such is an anticipated difficulty. And, having +4 Dexterity, it is not outside the realm of possibility for you to deal with horde encounters by the simple expedient of having your Wizard either sit on you or stand under you while you proceed with Opportunity Attacking everything that approaches and inflicting Ability Damage aplenty.

[AvatarVecna]

Actually, are there things that let you Sneak Attack in this book? Seems like they’d be here if nowhere else, even if they were republished in later books like the MIC.

Ghost Strike: A ghost strike weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus, just as if it were a ghost touch weapon. In addition, a ghost strike weapon can deliver sneak attacks or critical hits to an incorporeal undead creature as if the creature were not undead. Only melee weapons can have the ghost strike ability.
Moderate conjuration; CL 11th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, ghost touch weapon, undeath to death; Price +2 bonus.

Literally the first magic weapon property.

[Debatra]

Undead: Works on none, by virtue of immunity to physical ability damage, unless you think that the line about how undead still need to make a save indicates that designer intent was that this specific ability bypasses the specific undead immunity to physical ability damage if the undead in question has a skeletal system. If you read it that way, then it works on basically all, with the immune being weird edge cases.

To be clear, it doesn't just say that Undead need to make the save. The book specifically says "This ability works only on creatures that possess a skeletal structure (so it works on many undead, but it is useless against constructs, elementals, oozes, and plants).", emphasis of course mine.

stuff about "flavor text"

That's not actually flavor text. It's rules text. The flavor text is the italicized bit above that. Apologies for being pedantic, but this is an argument I've had several times in the Playground over the years.

---

As for giving the "fluid form" an asterisk, I'm firmly against it.

A. As others have mentioned, it doesn't actually do anything. You could maybe get a circumstance bonus on a handful of things like hiding/disguising yourself as an inanimate pile of bones, but any statistical impact it would have is pure extrapolation. Even my initial statement about body slots and manipulative digits was just that.

B. If we remove it's fluid form, then what does it look like? What body shape does it then possess? The picture is of a giant skeletal serpent, but that's just an option it has, not even the default.

[AvatarVecna]

Except that your offensive properties as a grappler are unaffected by this, meaning you can continue perfectly disabling one enemy from doing anything but futile attempts at getting you off of them, which can very readily be the dominant Wizard-stabber, so unless you're in a horde encounter your "just not dying" is in fact likely to be locking down an otherwise serious threat, especially as the aforementioned attack roll penalties do nothing to your Grapple check to keep the target disabled and progress to murdering them without a save.

I don't really give their grappling very much credit - they're big and strong, but low BAB means they're just 9 points ahead of an equal-level fighter who has the same base Str. 9 points is a lot on the d20, but it doesn't necessarily mean they've even got a chance to take out a significant threat. To avoid cherry-picking, let's just talk about dragons - an iconic threat that exists across all CR ranges and isn't specifically built for grappling as much as being naturally good at it. Let's go with core, and go CR 17 and up. Boneyard would presumably have base Str 18 and Improved grapple feat, bringing it to +34 at ECL 17, and let's assume +2 per level after that (+1 from class BAB and +1 from various other things). That seems reasonable-ish? Oh yeah and then that epic feat for +10 grapple, for sure. That seems like a solid pick.

Boneyard Grapple

Dragon Advantage

Dragon Grapple Range

CR

Black

Blue

Green

Red

White

Brass

Bronze

Copper

Gold

Silver

+34

+7 - +11

+41 - +45

17

+45

+42

+41

+36

+6 - +13

+42 - +49

18

+46

+45

+44

+44

+49

+42

+38

+5 - +19

+43 - +57

19

+50

+49

+48

+57

+46

+45

+43

+46

+40

+6 - +18

+46 - +58

20

+58

+52

+50

+49

+47

+46

+52

-2 - +9

+50 - +61

21

+57

+56

+56

+61

+58

+55

+50

+54

-3 - +8

+51 - +62

22

+62

+60

+57

+51

+59

+56

+2 - +6

+58 - +62

23

+61

+60

+62

+61

+59

+58

+58

+5 - +6

+63 - +64

24

+64

+64

+63

+63

+60

+3 - +11

+63 - +71

25

+65

+65

+63

+71

+62

+10 - +11

+72 - +73

26

+73

+72

+64

+11 - +11

+75 - +75

27

+75

How it goes from there can get weird. Default game, your Boneyard will use magic items to boost things a bit further, evening the odds even more. But monsters using magic items is kosher, it's just not done in default games (there's a line like "monsters will sometimes make use of their treasure hoard if it's in the form of easily-portable magic items" or something like that, but it's rarely incorporated into the statblock by default). Of course, how relevant this is will vary: dragons have triple normal treasure for their level, but also that's just 108000 gp worth of hoard for the CR 17 ones, so PC monsters definitely have a leg up in that department.

(Optimization tip: if you're a really big dragon, you have LA -0, so take a class level to suddenly be at PC wealth instead of dragon wealth. Money hack!)

More reliably, you'll have to tangle with spells. Naturally it's unfair to say that every dragon capable of casting 4th lvl spells has picked up Freedom Of Movement - it's a really good choice for reasons other than just facing grapple-focused PCs, but it's hardly a must-pick. But it should be noted at what point they gain access to it: chromatic dragons get 4th lvl spell access at CR 18, while metallic dragons get it at Mature Adult age (CRs 14 to 19). Even if not including that spell, though, there's plenty that can significantly boost their performance in one way or another. Dragons are iconic, common, and not particularly built for grappling, but even with base 18 Str and an epic feat, there's still more work that needs to be done to reliably beat them more often than not at your own specialty.

And heaven forbid you have to tangle with a grappler monster and find the shoe on the other foot: Colossal Monstrous Scorpion is a core grappler with CR 12, grapple +58, and improved grab. You've got no chance to escape that grapple until you're 1) epic, 2) so high level that said scorpion is literally too weak to give you XP. If you advanced it 20 HD to make it CR 17, now it's got at least +68 and even the feat is just giving you literally any chance to not auto-lose the grapple. Heck this is true of the other colossal vermin - the Colossal Centipede and Spider aren't grapple-based the way the scorpion is, but they're still looking at CR 9/Grapple +42 and CR 11/Grapple +50. They're just beatsticks - lots of size, lots of strength, lots of HD, lots of BAB, and so even without feats they're outwrestling you by a mile unless you put in a hell of a lot of work into the worst fighting style in the game. It'll be easier to just bite them.

And that's kinda the story of a PC grappler's life, even one with the boneyard's advantages: grapple bonuses, escape artist bonuses, freedom of movement, tactical teleportation, incorporeality...all of these can shut down your fighting style. And if a monster doesn't have the magic for the latter three, that probably means it has a ton more HD than you do, and so its options for one of the first two is going to dwarf whatever you're doing. The mages either won't stay grappled, or won't get grappled in the first place, and the beatsticks (of which there are far too many among the monsters of this edition) will tend to be at least as good as you are at wrestling, if not way better.

It's better to focus the bite than the grapple-kill.

And you are still a Huge creature with +20 Strength. It is not outside the picture for you to be tripping Anceint Dragons when they attempt to get into melee with your Wizard, if such is an anticipated difficulty. And, having +4 Dexterity, it is not outside the realm of possibility for you to deal with horde encounters by the simple expedient of having your Wizard either sit on you or stand under you while you proceed with Opportunity Attacking everything that approaches and inflicting Ability Damage aplenty.

This is a significant point, I think. Boneyard gets a heck of a lot better when built to be an AoO machine. That style can be a bit feat-intensive, but that's still a better use of your feats than most things a Boneyard could try and be. So a Boneyard can do a pretty good job not as a standard tank exactly, but more as a reach-monster style tank. I've got no argument against that, for sure.

Or rather, I don't have an argument against the AoO plan for the Boneyard. I think a dragon wandering into melee with a wizard is kinda weird though? Not to say it doesn't happen, but my experience with dragon encounters tends to be a lot more tactically involved than "the big thing wanders into melee and full attacks". Dragons have lotsa options, and in a game where the wizard has to worry about a dragon wanting to melee it, those options are probably pretty viable too.

To be clear, it doesn't just say that Undead need to make the save. The book specifically says "This ability works only on creatures that possess a skeletal structure (so it works on many undead, but it is useless against constructs, elementals, oozes, and plants).", emphasis of course mine.



That's not actually flavor text. It's rules text. The flavor text is the italicized bit above that. Apologies for being pedantic, but this is an argument I've had several times in the Playground over the years.

---

As for giving the "fluid form" an asterisk, I'm firmly against it.

A. As others have mentioned, it doesn't actually do anything. You could maybe get a circumstance bonus on a handful of things like hiding/disguising yourself as an inanimate pile of bones, but any statistical impact it would have is pure extrapolation. Even my initial statement about body slots and manipulative digits was just that.

B. If we remove it's fluid form, then what does it look like? What body shape does it then possess? The picture is of a giant skeletal serpent, but that's just an option it has, not even the default.

If we wanna be pedantic, "this ability works only on creatures that possess a skeletal structure" isn't saying "this works on anything with bones, even if they'd normally be immune to the effects". The actual wording of the ability is more saying "this doesn't work on creatures that don't have bones", just in a way that avoids double negatives - but make no mistake, it's not bypassing immunities, it's just putting a restriction on who has to even worry about it.

If we're being realistic, though...yeah, obvious designer intention is that it's supposed to work on undead, so it's a reasonable expectation that it would be allowed to function that way. I'm just pointing out that it's not the clear-cut RAW you seem to think it is.

(And also the ability to affect one creature type that would normally be immune to your nonsense isn't as versatile as the rogue abilities that do similar things for their SA for all the normally-immune creature types, so it's still not an apt comparison even if this was clear-cut RAW, which it isn't.)

[danielxcutter]

Well, if the DM is allowing a monster from Libris Mortis as a PC, it shouldn't be too hard to get Ghost Strike allowed as well if nothing else, so...

Also aren't most of the monsters likely to be close enough for you to bite going to have pretty good Fort saves? I suppose having a lot of RHD does help a with the DC, but even so.

You know, I'm pretty sure this isn't RAI in the slightest, but a Veil of Allure does apply to Bone Subsumption by RAW. It explicitly says "the Charisma-based save DCs of your extraordinary or supernatural abilities" without mentioning mind-affecting abilities.

[AvatarVecna]

Well, if the DM is allowing a monster from Libris Mortis as a PC, it shouldn't be too hard to get Ghost Strike allowed as well if nothing else, so...

Also aren't most of the monsters likely to be close enough for you to bite going to have pretty good Fort saves? I suppose having a lot of RHD does help a with the DC, but even so.

You know, I'm pretty sure this isn't RAI in the slightest, but a Veil of Allure does apply to Bone Subsumption by RAW. It explicitly says "the Charisma-based save DCs of your extraordinary or supernatural abilities" without mentioning mind-affecting abilities.

My general expectation is that a monster with CR equal to your level will have good saves that are about equal to your level as well. They have more HD than you, and attribute bonuses factoring in, but saves advance slower than HD do. It evens out. This matches up with what somebody said earlier about an equal-level monster having a 50% chance of success on a DC 28/29 bite?

[danielxcutter]

My general expectation is that a monster with CR equal to your level will have good saves that are about equal to your level as well. They have more HD than you, and attribute bonuses factoring in, but saves advance slower than HD do. It evens out. This matches up with what somebody said earlier about an equal-level monster having a 50% chance of success on a DC 28/29 bite?

Well, I suppose dumb brutes don't scale that well by the time the party gets to around ECL 18+ so that's probably about right.

[Blue Jay]

I think that the Boneyard's fluid form is worth an *. How that's interpreted causes the Boneyard's potential to fluctuate so wildly that it's impossible to rate it otherwise.

Like Debatra, I kind of disagree on this point, but my disagreement isn't quite as strong as his. If the committee thinks we should add the asterisk here just to be on the safe side, I guess I see the reasoning for it, and I'll happily concede this point to the majority.

But personally, I vote "no" to the asterisk. I feel like this "fluid form" thing is not really a potential source of honest mistakes and misunderstandings: it feels more like a potential source of willful game tampering by someone who's deliberately playing in bad faith. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong there; and maybe I'm muddying the RAW waters with too much of my own "common sense." And maybe we do want asterisks to guard against malicious loopholism of this sort. But, it does seem like it would take a lot of willful extrapolation to interpret that one line as granting a mechanically significant shapeshifting ability with a completely unprecedented lack of described mechanics and restrictions; so I don't really think it's necessary to guard against something that farfetched.

But, putting an asterisk here is still reasonably close to the spirit of the asterisk, so I'll happily bow to a majority if they vote for the asterisk.

[AvatarVecna]

Well, I suppose dumb brutes don't scale that well by the time the party gets to around ECL 18+ so that's probably about right.

Dragons, being iconic and highly varied, are useful for taking a temperature check on things like this - just one SRD URL lets you look at 120 monsters from CRs 2 to 27. Running through things quickly on my own: dragons saves overall tend to be ~1.4 points higher than their CR. In specific, Fort tends to be ~3.5 points higher than CR, Ref tends to be ~1.5 points lower than CR, and Will tends to be ~2.1 points higher than CR. I would hazard a guess that since beatsticks are more common than other kinds of monster encounters, you can expect Fort to be a bit higher than CR in general (like dragons have) and other saves to be lower (like dragon's Ref), but so long as it's a Good Save it should still be in the ballpark of their CR.

[AvatarVecna]

Like Debatra, I kind of disagree on this point, but my disagreement isn't quite as strong as his. If the committee thinks we should add the asterisk here just to be on the safe side, I guess I see the reasoning for it, and I'll happily concede this point to the majority.

But personally, I vote "no" to the asterisk. I feel like this "fluid form" thing is not really a potential source of honest mistakes and misunderstandings: it feels more like a potential source of willful game tampering by someone who's deliberately playing in bad faith. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong there; and maybe I'm muddying the RAW waters with too much of my own "common sense." And maybe we do want asterisks to guard against malicious loopholism of this sort. But, it does seem like it would take a lot of willful extrapolation to interpret that one line as granting a mechanically significant shapeshifting ability with a completely unprecedented lack of described mechanics and restrictions; so I don't really think it's necessary to guard against something that farfetched.

But, putting an asterisk here is still reasonably close to the spirit of the asterisk, so I'll happily bow to a majority if they vote for the asterisk.

Honestly even that feels kinda generous to the argument being made. It's not the italicized fluff text, but it's the part of the text that isn't part of any ability that indicates things like how much the creature weighs and what languages it speaks. It's just about what the base form of the creature is, and has no further explicit mechanical impacts. It can't change size (or effective size for squeezing purposes), it can't alter its weight, it doesn't even technically get a disguise bonus to pretend to be a pile of bones instead of a creature. Any mechanical effect it gets is purely "the DM is willing to let that work", and that's no different from any normal play that wanders into an area where the rules are fuzzy on what should happen.

The closest asterisk we've given was for the Formian Taskmaster, where it received an ability that definitely has a mechanical impact, but it's very unclear how much of one, and how we should read it:

Dominated Creature (Ex)
A taskmaster is never encountered alone. One dominated nonformian creature always accompanies it (choose or determine randomly any creature of CR 4).

I'm not sure what it actually does. Can you choose any CR 4 creature to have permanently dominated? Can you replace it? If the old creature dies, does a new one appear magically? Is the domination Extraordinary? Does it take up one of your four domination slots?

This is the closest, and it's still not really close. The formlessness doesn't have an explicit mechanical effect the way Dominated Creature does, and Dominated Creature easily has more potential for abuse and power than being able to shift the exact layout of your body parts. It warrants an asterisk for both abuse and confusion, and the closest this gets is that it's confusing on whether or not it should have a mechanical effect at all. But even if it did, whatever could be argued wouldn't be significant enough to alter its LA even if it had far fewer HD. It's just not useful enough of an ability to wring our hands over.

[Debatra]

The votes so far:

-0* - 1
-0 - 1
+0 - 6

And as for potential asterisks:

2 votes in favor of one for what we've been calling its "fluid form"
4 votes against the same

I've gone back and edited the summary post to specify the lack of mechanical impact for the "fluid form".

[Caelestion]

I think it's a weak +0, but then it's a bruiser, so that's to be expected. I don't think it's -0 though.

[Thurbane]

Undead: Works on none, by virtue of immunity to physical ability damage, unless you think that the line about how undead still need to make a save indicates that designer intent was that this specific ability bypasses the specific undead immunity to physical ability damage if the undead in question has a skeletal system. If you read it that way, then it works on basically all, with the immune being weird edge cases.

I think the clear intent of the ability wording is that it does work on Undead, and I would personally treat it as a case of specific trumps general. But could definitely have been worded better for clarity.

[danielxcutter]

I also agree that the intention of that ability was for it to work on undead, even if it's only marginally better worded than the Truenamer section of Tome of Magic.

Wait, actually, most things are better worded than that anyways never mind.

[liquidformat]

No, it's a solid comparison if you aren't splatbook diving to remove your weaknesses. Just because a Rogue has the option to do trivially so because somebody at some point in WotC decided to shut off their counters doesn't mean it's legitimately expected. This is why I almost always talk in terms of basic SRD gear when coming up with comparison points, because that is a normal assumption to make and expected gameplay mechanics.

It isn't a solid comparison for this project, for one thing once you start talk about class tiers you are putting all the splat books on the table. Two, someone who is going off the online SRDs isn't going to let you play a race from LM, three someone playing purely SRDs isn't going to let any player use something like this which falls into homebrew territory...

I have seen this argument multiple times on here and it is as bad now as it was then.

I am ok with no asterisk since as has been said there is no actual mechanics associated with it. Anyways I still don't think this thing hits +0, it doesn't have the rhd to be a good grappler so even though it has an ability that can auto kill in 2-3 rounds it is going to struggle using it and I don't think its bite rider is enough for it to keep up with a party at this level.

[Debatra]

That more or less settles it I guess. Two votes for -0 and seven for +0.

Brain in a Jar in a few minutes. That ought to be fun.

[Debatra]

Brain in a Jar

Size & Type: Tiny Undead
HD: 3
Speed: Fly 30' (good)
Ability Scores: Str -, Dex +4, Con -, Int +6, Wis +2, Cha +6 - Net 18, no penalties
Natural Armor: 0 (+1 deflection)
Natural Weapons: -
Skill List: Bluff, Diplomacy, K: History, K: Psionics, K: Religion, Listen, Spot
Body Shape: ...Guess.
Speech (Languages): No (100' Telepathy)
CR: 4
WotC LA: -
Our LA: +1

It doesn't have a ton going for it, but it's only a three-HD creature. 60' Blindsight and +4 Turn Resistance are about what you'd expect, and the at-will 2d10 Mind Thrust as a Supernatural ability is nice. Its Madness ability deals 1d4 Wisdom damage with no save to any creature that attempts to make direct contact with its mind, though this doesn't actually prevent whatever was attempted. It can Rebuke Undead as a Cleric of its level (and unlike some creatures above, this one's daily uses actually do line up with its Charisma).

The real meat is its Spell/Psi-Like Abilities, all of which are higher-level spells than a third-level character is capable of. Suggestion and Telekinesis three times per day, and a single daily Dominate Person. CL/ML 10, with Charisma-based saves. There's a bit of an oddity here, as the abilities are labeled "Psionics (Sp)" and replicate spells, but are given a Manifester Level instead of a Caster Level. Errata is once again silent on the matter.

The Charisma focus of its abilities may make you want to say Wilder, but then it would lose out on 9th-level powers even if we gave it +0. It's Intelligence is just as high, so a Psion is viable, but then you'd have to either be focusing on two mental stats or ignoring your very-potent-for-your-level abilities (though I guess you could just have a 10/16 base and then get a Charisma-boosting item). And then you'd still lose 9ths if we gave it so much as +1. But do those abilities make up for being a literal brain in a jar enough to hit the +1 mark?

[Thurbane]

Psionics are definitely not my strong suit, but I'll give this a go.

Brain In A Jar

Spoiler

Show

"It's a life of quiet dignity."

• Tiny undead
• 3 RHD (d12 hp, poor BAB, one good save, 4 skill points/"level")
• Fly 30 ft (good) (stat block mentions 8 squares, was it meant to be 40 ft?)
• Random +1 deflection bonus to AC. Stat block fails to include size modifier.
• No natural attacks or melee attacks.
• Mind thrust: 1/round ranged 2d10 damage attack; will save negates damage.
• Psionics: 3/day suggestion, telekinesis; 1/day dominate person. ML 10. Not bad at all for 3 HD.
• Rebuke undead: as a cleric of your HD. Nice.
• Blindsight 60 ft, darkvision 60 ft: so I guess it's not actually blind?
• Madness: anyone trying to read your mind takes 1d4 Wisdom damage.
• Telepathy 100 ft: nice for all of the usual reasons.
• Undead traits.
• +4 turn resistance: handy for any undead.
• Str --, Dex +4, Con --, Int +6, Wis +2, Cha +6: net +18, two non-abilities.
• Small-ish, but decent, skill list.

Very non-standard, tiny, body shape. No limbs, manipulative digits, or even a Str score. You will have gear issues - this might actually be the impetus for a VoP build. Can't speak, has no mouth, but does have telepathy.

The very obvious progression is psionics (which, again, my knowledge of which is very limited). Solid metal scores, flight, undead immunities, decent PLAs and can rebuke undead.

I'm voting a very tentative LA +1, but could easily go higher if required.

[Blue Jay]

I prefer LA +1 for the brain in a jar. The ability scores are high (mentally), and Tiny size has plenty of advantages. Blindsight and a Fly speed are both really good, especially in the early game. Plus, the SLAs are well above par for this level. I think this all adds up to a reasonably capable 4th-level character, and I don't feel like the loss of 9th-level spells or powers in the late game is a significant enough drawback (both because the majority of games won't make it that far, and because balance at the highest levels seems like it's mostly a crap-shoot anyway). The lack of body slots, manipulators and speech are probably quite annoying, but I suspect that your powers will still outweigh your weaknesses for a significant chunk of the game.

I'm not sure what to make of the lack of a Strength score, though: that just seems like a very weird design element to me, like the designers momentarily forgot that their monster wasn't incorporeal, like the unbodied. The lack of a BAB is even weirder: I don't really feel like there should be exceptions to such a foundational rule as base attack bonuses. Even the War Hulk's non-progressing BAB bothers me; but "--" for a BAB is just going too far. Does that mean it can never have a BAB? Or is it just treated as BAB +0?

I'd want to house-rule this thing as having a Strength of 1 and normal BAB for an undead, because those design elements just don't make any sense to me, and they seem like they're just there to bait the rules lawyers at the table.

[Lapak]

Need to think about this one; it's definitely one that's going to skew stronger at low levels - out-of-scale psionic abilities added to the size and maneuverability are will be potent - but some issues that may catch up with you later (magic item slot issues, for example.) I'm not opposed to it losing 9ths given the substantial boost it will get in early levels, so I think it's probably +1 at least, but I'm willing to be convinced otherwise. No vote yet.

[Efrate]

I think its at a +2. At ecl 4 flight and a ranged attack can pretty easily solo most encountera given time. Undead immunitues are also great, and it has a some notable PLAs. Dominate and Telekinesis are very good if limited.

That is more in line with a 5th level caster. Your options are different, but weighing dominate with the save DC boost vs. other options at lvl 5 is still pretty nice. Telepathy and dominate give you the manipulators you need, and your immunities and flight tick those boxes as far as magic items go. Stat items are somewhat replaced by your racials. I can see an argument for headband and head slot items maybe. Make your jar out of riverine, and saves shouldn't be too bad, unless the jar is part of the creature as in its body? Blindsight and mindsight are either there or a feat away for senses. At least one permanent minion in most cases and all the other stuff is a decent consolation prize for losing 9ths.

[Thurbane]

I'm thinking there are a few outright errors in the stat block here.

As I mentioned, size AC modifier is neglected; and movement is noted as both 30 feet and 8 squares.

I hadn't noticed the lack of BAB. IMHO, this is a typo and should have standard BAB of +1 for a 3HD undead. I'm guessing because it doesn't have any attacks that require an attack roll, they messed it up.

[Efrate]

Also does the telepathy count as direct contact? Because thats at will no save wisdom damage at 100 ft which is very nice.

[Thurbane]

Also does the telepathy count as direct contact? Because thats at will no save wisdom damage at 100 ft which is very nice.

Due to the wording, I think it would only trigger if the target is the one who initiates contact.

Madness (Su): Anyone targeting a brain in a jar with a thought detection, mind control, or any sort of telepathic or psionic ability that makes direct contact with its tortured mind takes 1d4 points of Wisdom damage.

[Debatra]

The errata corrected its speed to six squares. Same with its size bonus.

The BAB was not mentioned.

Also does the telepathy count as direct contact? Because thats at will no save wisdom damage at 100 ft which is very nice.

Anyone targeting a brain in a jar with a thought detection, mind control, or any sort of telepathic or psionic ability that makes direct contact with its tortured mind takes 1d4 points of Wisdom damage.

So it's defensive only.

[Blue Jay]

I'm thinking there are a few outright errors in the stat block here.

As I mentioned, size AC modifier is neglected; and movement is noted as both 30 feet and 8 squares.

I hadn't noticed the lack of BAB. IMHO, this is a typo and should have standard BAB of +1 for a 3HD undead. I'm guessing because it doesn't have any attacks that require an attack roll, they messed it up.

I hadn't noticed the size modifier problem or the movement contradiction, but it turns out that both of those things are corrected in the errata. The BAB thing is not, however. I think you're probably right, though: somebody just got carried away putting dashes in for non-existent attacks.

Also, I guess the Strength non-ability isn't really a problem either: apparently, "Strength --" is not restricted to incorporeal creatures, like I thought: it just means the creature is incapable of producing physical force, and it automatically fails all Strength checks. So, a grappler, tripper or bull rusher automatically wins against this (though it does make me wonder how you determine how far it gets pushed when something bull rushes it).

[Caelestion]

This is another classic example of something that would benefit from a scaling LA. It should clearly be +2 right at the start of play, but after 6th-level or so (3 levels + RHD), its LA is probably only a +1.