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  1. - Top - End - #1021
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Aren't there other maneuvers that use skill rolls besides Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw? Not many, I think, but most disciplines have at least one IIRC.
    Setting Sun uses Sense Motive a few times, but you could still use the trip maneuvers. Desert Sun gives you fire resistance based on Tumble ranks with its 1st-level stance, but it doesn't require a check and I think that's the only one in the discipline to have anything skill-related. I can't think of any others that use skills off the top of my head.
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    I mean, there's no reason you couldn't go Crusader, Warblade, or Swordsage. You'd miss out on a couple of the class features, and you'd want to avoid Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw, but that still leaves you 7 disciplines to work with.
    The same could be argued for paladin and many other classes, but in the end the point is you are loosing 1/4th-1/2 of your class features depending on which we are talking about. Its not trivial to be loosing even a 1/4th of your class features. Sure you can still have maneuvers and stances but you are automatically removing two schools and removing random ones inside of some of the others.

    And again without an asterisk for the Int, I question whether we can even make this playable. As I said before I did a quick look through templates and I didn't find any that is acquired, can be applied after becoming undead, and increases int to 3+.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    I would normally give it a cohort tag to account for the 1 Int, but I think here the assumption is that you just ignore that, as seen with all the various mindless creatures.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Easy -0. I literally can't fathom this being useful. No mental stats = no casting. No con means you cant be a good frontliner. No int means no skillmonkey. I guess you could be a warlock? lol But yeah I can't see how this isn't a massive downgrade to anything you put it on. So maybe if you put it on a +1 or higher elemental it might be playable? i still highly doubt it. i legit dont think this template is salvageable.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    I would normally give it a cohort tag to account for the 1 Int, but I think here the assumption is that you just ignore that, as seen with all the various mindless creatures.
    Previous mindless creatures normally had an associated awaken spell or easy template/s to make them not mindless. This has neither so it might require an asterisk, if we are instead playing it as is I am not seeing much of an argument that this thing is anything but -0 with 1 Int and Cha.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    The real problem is all the set-to properties basically gutting any methods of progression. I'm pretty sure you can accomplish stupidity with a Small Air Necromental, getting Weapon Finesse and Improved Initiative as further Bonus Feats atop +6 Dexterity and +3 Natural Armor for a total base AC of 18 before any PC tailoring, so you can pretty easily end up untouchable by very nearly everything in the game from your pile of immunities and enormous Reflex save as well as have pretty crazy accuracy... But not really any way of getting more damage.

    But then even with 18/18 Str/Dex investment you don't really have many places to go because of those set-to mental scores. You're a dumb beater, and cannot become much of anything more, meaning you're basically competing with Fighter alone because you don't have the scores to fuel anything else.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Huh. Just realized you could get this on almost any creature by taking 10 levels of Elemental Savant, then the template. You lose all your class levels, getting reset to your base race, but keep the template. That would obviously be terrible for an existing character, but would make for an interesting backstory for a new character; a once powerful caster brought low and made into a servant by a necromancer with a cruel sense of humor, now out to escape/get revenge.
    Last edited by PoeticallyPsyco; 2021-04-08 at 02:22 PM.
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    There are also some templates that grant the elemental type.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    I noted this in my first post, but forced Int 1 may be worth an asterisk, as it's illegal for a player character. Asterisking that would solve many of the templates problems, and potentially bump it up to a +1.
    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    Previous mindless creatures normally had an associated awaken spell or easy template/s to make them not mindless. This has neither so it might require an asterisk, if we are instead playing it as is I am not seeing much of an argument that this thing is anything but -0 with 1 Int and Cha.
    The general rule is that we assume some (specifically unspecified) way of reaching 3 Int when needed. There's no asterisk needed for a low Int.
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Debatra View Post
    The general rule is that we assume some (specifically unspecified) way of reaching 3 Int when needed. There's no asterisk needed for a low Int.
    No that's not quite right, previously we identified possible ways to get to int 3+ but did not include any specific one into our rating of the creature as the rating of the creature would change depending on which one you are using (even if only slightly).

    In this case no way beyond DM fiat has yet been identified to bring Necromental up to 3+ int. That is a whole different situation from what we have been working with.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Fair play on the other -0 templates, but obviously we can't assume that we play with Intelligence 1, as that's impossible to play.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    No that's not quite right, previously we identified possible ways to get to int 3+ but did not include any specific one into our rating of the creature as the rating of the creature would change depending on which one you are using (even if only slightly).

    In this case no way beyond DM fiat has yet been identified to bring Necromental up to 3+ int. That is a whole different situation from what we have been working with.
    Magic item, maybe?

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    I have trouble understanding why it is such a big deal that it has only 1 Int, beyond "the rules say a PC shouldn't play something below 3 int". Isn't the goal of the thread to allow for play things that aren't allowed by the rules? I mean, we have rated things without a mouth, things that cannot move by themselves, things that are literally a swarm of smaller things, things that suck the spells out of their teammates, and things that litterally kill themselves when they try to eat anything that wasn't injected with evil, but something that has the intelligence of a sheep should be disqualified immediately? Why should it be unplayable?

    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    In this case no way beyond DM fiat has yet been identified to bring Necromental up to 3+ int. That is a whole different situation from what we have been working with.
    Also, Element-infused (Fire), from the Advanced Bestiary
    could work (not sure if 3rd party is counted but heh, at least it is a way).
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2021-04-08 at 04:57 PM.
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Oh! Undead use Charisma for Concentration checks, so that means you can't really use a lot of Diamond Mind strikes.
    That's a good point: a lot of undead stuff keys off Cha (Concentration, most save DCs, rage duration etc.). Having Cha set to 1 is really going to hurt all of these.

    The only conceivable role I can see for a Necromental PC is beatstick, without special attacks that have a DC, and wading into combat with mediocre to poor hit points.

    As liquidformat and I have pointed out, a set Int of 1 is problematic for a PC, even more so than an Int of --. I think if you wanted this template to be usable for a PC, you might need to house rule the ability mods to Con --, Int -10, Wis +0, Cha -10 or something similar. Honestly I don't know why the devs didn't just make it Int -- and be done with it.

    As written, to get to the 3 Int required for PCs, with a set Int of 1, the tow things that spring to mind are Headband of Intellect, or the Prodigy NPC trait (DMG 2). Otherwise an ally with two Wish spells handy.

    Despite the very worthy purpose of these threads, some monsters/templates are just not mechanically suitable to be PCs.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Like I said, LA +1 (cohort).

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Just had another thought on getting Int to 3+: the Vile Death spell gives you the Fiendish template, which will set your Int to 3.

    Significantly cheaper than 2x Wish to achieve the same result.

    Just beware Dispel Magic, as it is a permanent spell, rather than instantaneous.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Just had another thought on getting Int to 3+: the Vile Death spell gives you the Fiendish template, which will set your Int to 3.

    Significantly cheaper than 2x Wish to achieve the same result.

    Just beware Dispel Magic, as it is a permanent spell, rather than instantaneous.
    Isn’t Fiendish a +1 template in this thread? Needing another template just to be playable and only getting a few toys on a chassis that wasn’t stellar anyways to get at most shining mediocrity and that’s without playing with magic items?

    Yeah, I haven’t felt confident to vote for a while, but LA -0*.
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    Magic item, maybe?
    Personally at least I don't think a magic item should be capable of making you playable but even if it is a headband of intelligence isn't viable until 5th or 6th level depending on the games magic item rules, that sounds like another reason this should be -0 to me. If you can't gain any class levels without having 5 to 6 rhd that means you can't be a small or medium elemental and are left with only -0 elemental bases, and this template only makes them worse.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post
    I have trouble understanding why it is such a big deal that it has only 1 Int, beyond "the rules say a PC shouldn't play something below 3 int". Isn't the goal of the thread to allow for play things that aren't allowed by the rules? I mean, we have rated things without a mouth, things that cannot move by themselves, things that are literally a swarm of smaller things, things that suck the spells out of their teammates, and things that litterally kill themselves when they try to eat anything that wasn't injected with evil, but something that has the intelligence of a sheep should be disqualified immediately? Why should it be unplayable?



    Also, Element-infused (Fire), from the Advanced Bestiary
    could work (not sure if 3rd party is counted but heh, at least it is a way).
    I am not saying we have to stick with the players must have min 3 int rule just that we haven't broken that rule yet because we have had ways to over come that rule in the past. As far as the can't move and all those other oddities you have mentioned, none of those are disallowed in the rules for player characters, whereas having under 3 int specifically is. Another point of note is without 3 in int you aren't allowed to add your ability bonus point to int you gain from leveling.

    Anyways if we do say int less than 3 is fine as long as you aren't mindless then I think this is -0. If you just gained undead type with its bonuses then this thing would be +0 IMO; fast healing, a crappy energy drain that can be used once per round, and +2 NA isn't worth setting your Int and Cha to 1, your wis to 10 and having the crappy version of undead hp.
    Last edited by liquidformat; 2021-04-09 at 07:42 AM.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    In the defense of sheep, they should probably have an Int of 2.

    1 seems to be mainly reserved for reptiles, fish and other cold blooded vertebrates (and invertebrates such as squid).


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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticallyPsyco View Post
    Huh. Just realized you could get this on almost any creature by taking 10 levels of Elemental Savant, then the template. You lose all your class levels, getting reset to your base race, but keep the template. That would obviously be terrible for an existing character, but would make for an interesting backstory for a new character; a once powerful caster brought low and made into a servant by a necromancer with a cruel sense of humor, now out to escape/get revenge.
    Savage Species' Emancipated Spawn rang, and laughed aloud at how fun this idea could be.

    Spoiler: Icy Necromental
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    Race/Class/Alignment: Wood Elf Cloistered Cleric

    Starting Stats:

    Stat 28 Pt Racial Level Ups
    Strength 14 +2 4, 8, 12
    Dexterity 15 +2 16
    Constitution 7 -2
    Intelligence 8 -2
    Wisdom 18
    Charisma 7 -2


    Level
    Class
    Base Attack Bonus
    Fort Save
    Ref Save
    Will Save
    Skills
    Feats
    Class Features
    1 Cloistered Cleric (1d6) +0 +2 +0 +2 Concentration +4, Knowledge (Arcana) +4, Knowledge (The Planes) +4, Spellcraft +4 Maximize Spell Turn/Rebuke Undead, Cold Domain, Weather Domain, Knowledge Domain
    2 Cloistered Cleric (2d6) +1 +3 +0 +3 Concentration +5, Knowledge (Arcana) +5, Knowledge (The Planes) +5, Spellcraft +5
    3 Cloistered Cleric (3d6) +1 +3 +1 +3 Concentration +6, Knowledge (Arcana) +6, Knowledge (The Planes) +6, Spellcraft +6 Elemental Substitution: (Cold)
    4 Cloistered Cleric (4d6) +2 +4 +1 +4 Concentration +7, Knowledge (Arcana) +7, Knowledge (The Planes) +7, Spellcraft +7
    5 Cloistered Cleric (5d6) +2 +4 +1 +4 Concentration +8, Knowledge (Arcana) +8, Knowledge (The Planes) +8, Spellcraft +8
    6 Cloistered Cleric (6d6) +3 +5 +2 +5 Concentration +9, Knowledge (Arcana) +9, Knowledge (The Planes) +9, Spellcraft +9 Lord of the Uttercold
    7 Cloistered Cleric (7d6) +3 +5 +2 +5 Concentration +10, Knowledge (Arcana) +9, Knowledge (The Planes) +9, Spellcraft +10, Speak Language: Aquan
    8 Elemental Savant (7d6 + 1d4) +3 +5 +2 +7 Concentration +11, Knowledge (Arcana) +9, Knowledge (The Planes) +9, Spellcraft +10 Cold Specialty, Cold Resistance 5
    9 Elemental Savant (7d6 + 2d4) +4 +5 +2 +8 Concentration +12, Knowledge (Arcana) +9, Knowledge (The Planes) +9, Spellcraft +10 Mastery of Day and Night Immunity to Sleep
    10 Elemental Savant (7d6 + 3d4) +4 +6 +3 +8 Concentration +13, Knowledge (Arcana) +9, Knowledge (The Planes) +9, Spellcraft +10 Cold Penetration +2
    11 Elemental Savant (7d6 + 4d4) +5 +6 +3 +9 Concentration +14, Knowledge (Arcana) +9, Knowledge (The Planes) +9, Spellcraft +10 Cold Resistance 10
    12 Elemental Savant (7d6 + 5d4) +5 +6 +3 +9 Concentration +15, Knowledge (Arcana) +9, Knowledge (The Planes) +9, Spellcraft +10 Cold Focus Cold Focus +1
    13 Elemental Savant (7d6 + 6d4) +6 +7 +4 +10 Concentration +16, Knowledge (Arcana) +9, Knowledge (The Planes) +9, Spellcraft +10 Darkvision
    14 Elemental Savant (7d6 + 7d4) +6 +7 +4 +10 Concentration +17, Knowledge (Arcana) +9, Knowledge (The Planes) +9, Spellcraft +10 Cold Resistance 20
    15 Elemental Savant (7d6 + 8d4) +7 +7 +4 +11 Concentration +18, Knowledge (Arcana) +9, Knowledge (The Planes) +9, Spellcraft +10 Greater Cold Focus Cold Penetration +4
    16 Elemental Savant (7d6 + 9d4) +7 +8 +5 +11 Concentration +19, Knowledge (Arcana) +9, Knowledge (The Planes) +9, Spellcraft +10 Immunity to Paralysis/Poison
    17 Elemental Savant (7d6 + 10d4) +8 +8 +5 +12 Concentration +20, Knowledge (Arcana) +9, Knowledge (The Planes) +9, Spellcraft +10 Cold Focus +2, Cold Immunity, Elemental Perfection
    1 Wood Elf Necromental (1d12) +8 +8 +5 +12 Concentration +20, Knowledge (Arcana) +9, Knowledge (The Planes) +9, Spellcraft +10 Great Fortitude(b), (Maximize Spell), Lost: Elemental Substitution, Lord of the Uttercold, Mastery of Day and Night, Cold Focus, Greater Cold Focus +2 Natural Armor, Create Spawn, Energy Drain, Create Spawn, Fast Healing 3, Constitution: -, Intelligence 1, Wisdom 10, Charisma 1, Lost: Class features
    1 Emancipated Spawn (1d12) +8 +8 +5 +14 Concentration +20, Knowledge (Arcana) +9, Knowledge (The Planes) +9, Spellcraft +10, (I don’t actually know if we gain a skill point or not…) Elemental Substitution(b), Lord of the Uttercold(b), Mastery of Day and Night(b), Cold Focus(b), Greater Cold Focus(b) Recall Feats, Turn Resistance +2
    2 Emancipated Spawn (2d12) +9 +8 +5 +15 (as above) Turn Resistance +4, Cleric Spellcasting (9th level spellcasting 1 spell/day each), Rebuke Undead, Cold Domain, Weather Domain, Knowledge Domain

    Busted that out really quickly. The cleric just needed to die with at least an intelligence +2 item equipped, and rise from the Create Spawn of the Necromental with the item still equipped. The template says to lose class levels, but retain BAB, saves, and skills, which is unusual for templates that scrap class levels.

    Regardless of all this, I doubt a DM will allow you to abuse Emancipated Spawn even if you do take this template. I don't believe this savage species (3.0) prestige class warrants a change in Level Adjustment to the race, so I will agree that it should be: -0 or +1* depending on if we give an * for int.
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    The icy necromental is very funny. You know what's just as funny?

    If it was an enemy, it'd be CR 20, right?

    As an anti-optimzation CR trick, I propose the human sorcerer 9/elemental savant 10 necromental. This is a CR 20 enemy, I think - and it has 1 undead HD and almost nothing going on for it besides. You could multiclass a bit more to lower the the BaB.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    For those saying Create Spawn isn't worth an asterisk, I will simply point out that we've attached it to creatures with far less efficient ways of creating spawn, (including at least one that might not even technically function by RAW) and control of said spawn has never really been a factor.
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post
    A template can be -0 if it makes you lose more than it gives you in most builds, and hence is probably not worth taking, even at LA +0 (we of course disregard any kind of negative LA in this thread). Here, the build gives you a type change, and a lot of cool immunities, but sets all your mental stats. Plus, this is an acquired template, which means you don't just have -10 int before you roll, you have 1 Int, period, and hence very probably never get more than 1 skill point per level for your whole career. You also can't use spells of any kind, since you have no mental stats above 10. And finally, you do not have a Con score, which doesn't translate well for a martial. So, yeah, you lose quite a bit, whatever class you want to go in. If it didn't have undead immunities, it would definitely, positively be -0. With undead immunities... Well, you can see there are arguments.
    I think you're making an assumption here that may not be valid. There aren't very many specific rules about how to handle attributes for a monster that begins play with an acquired template, so it isn't clear to me that you have to treat an acquired template as a post-pointbuy sort of thing: I think it's just as valid to assume that the post-template score will be treated as a racial modifier to apply to your point buy. Naturally, your assumption is reasonable, but I don't think it's secure enough to call it definitive RAW.

    Also, you've got to be really careful on how you let this kind of thing influence your LA votes. An Intelligence score of 1 completely invalidates a playability rating, in principle. That's why the thread guidelines explicitly tell us to assume that some means of acquiring a playable Intelligence score is available. Granted, that doesn't mean we can just completely hand-wave away the Intelligence problem with this template, but it does mean that "tanking your mental stats" shouldn't be treated as a very reliable counterbalance to whatever boosts and boons the template gives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    We have rated a few templates that came in at -0: Zombie, Skeleton*, Topiary Guardian and Yellow Musk Zombies, according to the index.
    To be fair, Zombie is a template that adds hit dice to the monster, so even at LA -0, there's still a cost for taking the template. Topiary Guardian is an oddball template that creates a whole new creature with hit dice and ability scores that are set and completely unrelated to the base creature. And skeleton was given an LA that varies with the base creature's hit dice, which is something we really haven't done since then. Yellow musk zombie is a strange template that takes away a lot of character agency, and even saddles the monster with a short lifespan of just two months +1d4 days.

    I don't disagree that it's possible for a template to get LA +0 or -0, but I think those are all very unusual circumstances, and I don't think necromental amounts to a similarly unusual circumstance. And I don't see this as a legitimately zero-sum template, so I think it has to have a positive LA. I'm voting LA +1* for the necromental template.

    I also agree with you that the create spawn ability is inherently limited by its narrow niche; but in principle, it's uncapped, so I still think the asterisk is justified.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Since we always assume that characters can be made playable (the whole point of the thread, after all), we can also assume that we can somehow reach Int and Cha of 3 or higher. I think I will go with LA +1*, where the star indicates create spawn ability and the whole issue surrounding the mental abilities.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    Since we always assume that characters can be made playable (the whole point of the thread, after all), we can also assume that we can somehow reach Int and Cha of 3 or higher. I think I will go with LA +1*, where the star indicates create spawn ability and the whole issue surrounding the mental abilities.
    please note 1 Cha is playable, nowhere in the rules are you barred from having 1 cha or wis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jay View Post
    I don't disagree that it's possible for a template to get LA +0 or -0, but I think those are all very unusual circumstances, and I don't think necromental amounts to a similarly unusual circumstance. And I don't see this as a legitimately zero-sum template, so I think it has to have a positive LA. I'm voting LA +1* for the necromental template.
    The main issue I am seeing is in other cases we have identified one or more spells or templates to get us up to 3+ int. Choosing not to include the spells/templates in the evaluation of the monster and simply handwaving it because they are there is quite different then not having any that could be used. In this case the only way to achieve 3+ Int seems to be having a magic item like headband of intelligence which adds it own set of problems. Specifically you need to be ECL 5-6 before WBL would allow you to afford the headband which puts you into large or larger elemental territory as your only way to achieve that is through RHD wand said elementals are already -0 creatures.

    While Icy Necromental is an interesting build I don't know of any DM who would let a character into a ECL1 game with the WBL of a level 19-20 character, and in a ECL19-20 game Icy Necromental is so underpowered that you might as well leave the Necromental as an NPC and make a new character.

    Even in the case that we are handwaving away the base 1 issue you are effectively taking -10 int (min 3 int) setting wis to 10 and cha to 1 (since neither of these effect playability) all non RHD HD are normal for your class without con mods. Undead immunities are nice but with everything being based around Cha and specifically having 1 cha you have the makings of a pretty horrid setup, getting fast healing and an ignorable bonus to AC isn't a bonus it is absolutely mandatory to try and make you somewhat less killable since you are forced into beatsticking and have lower hp than everything else you are being compared with. And Energy drain while helpful at once per round it isn't enough to make a difference much less design a build around. You are being forced into tier 5 classes with very little capability to do anything in or out of combat.

    I am just not seeing where people are getting +1 out of this template it is a hot pile that makes you worse at everything, what path are you seeing that would make this competitive with any tier 3 build?

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Like, energy drain is less impactful against monsters than players because you're going to kill the monsters anyways so they don't have to worry about getting rid of them.

    Also fast healing 3 really isn't going to cut it after long. How many fights last more than 5 rounds? Remember, undead instantly get destroyed when they drop to 0 or lower.
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    You are being forced into tier 5 classes
    You're really not, though. A (for instance) Crusader only loses Indomitable Soul and Smite; that's not bad. Trading those for Fast Healing, inflicting negative levels, and undead immunities (which also largely mitigate the need for Indomitable Soul) would be a no-brainer on many if not most builds. The fact that your Int and Cha are tanked and you lose some HP is a tradeoff, and honestly quite a painful one, but a Necromental Crusader is still easily comparable to an [element] Elemental Crusader.

    Is it still -0? Perhaps; those are some real tradeoffs, and there's a fair argument to be made that the Necromental Crusader has lost enough to be -0. But it's weird to me that people keep arguing it's not even possible/viable in the first place, especially compared to Fighter.
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Since when has Fighter been our baseline? I thought we typically compared them to at least tier 4 classes.

    Also Indomitable Soul does kinda hurt losing since your Wis isn't exactly stellar and I'm pretty sure elementals aren't known for their high Will save bonuses. Unlike Fort-effects, mind-affecting immunity doesn't cover 99% of the saves either.

    Oh, and I think there are maneuvers that have saves but they weren't much good on standard builds anyways I think.

    Plus I don't get the argument that you only lose "some" hit points. You're similar or inferior to other martials from the start and it gets bigger the more Con they can have.
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Like, energy drain is less impactful against monsters than players because you're going to kill the monsters anyways so they don't have to worry about getting rid of them.

    Also fast healing 3 really isn't going to cut it after long. How many fights last more than 5 rounds? Remember, undead instantly get destroyed when they drop to 0 or lower.
    Energy drain gives them -1 to everything and -5 HP. You don't care if it kills them. It's a stacking debuff and extra damage in one.

    When did fast healing become +0 LA? Last I checked, the feral template was one of the few +1 LA templates that's actually worth it, mainly because the fast healing is such a big advantage. Auto-refilling your health between combats is a big deal and would never be +0. Also, losing 12 HP because of a lower Con score is a nightmare, but regaining 15 HP over the course of a combat is useless?

    You've also quietly glossed over mind-affecting immunity, permanent death ward, and auto-passing all Fortitude saves.
    Last edited by Troacctid; 2021-04-12 at 12:49 PM.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    It’s a lot more than 12 points after like, level 6 or something. How many fighters start with less than 12 Con?
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