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  1. - Top - End - #1081
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    I wonder if Necropolitan will be this divisive too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    The xp cost makes it easier to swallow as a +0.
    Yeah, I could be wrong, but I think the vote for Necropolitan is more likely to come out as a straight +0. I would say it's one of the WotC assigned LA templates that most people seem to agree with.

  2. - Top - End - #1082
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    I think the Necromental is +0 at best, I don't know what role it can fill with out taking a hit to competency in some aspect
    Last edited by Lans; 2021-04-14 at 01:21 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #1083
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Debatra View Post
    Any elemental killed by its Energy Drain rises as a Necromental after 1d4 days. No mention of control. Asterisk.
    Asterisk definitely, but only affecting elementals (a fairly uncommon creature type), taking days, and possibly not being able to control them makes this the least impressive spawn ability that can kill commoners more than half of the time.

    For a cherry on top, they get Great Fortitude. Hey, bonus feats are bonus feats.
    I guess, but since undead are immune to most Fortitude-targeting effects in the first place...

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Well first off that's flat incorrect—it locks you out of traditional casting, but that's not the same as locking you into melee beatstick. You could also be an archer, an invoker, a binder, a meldshaper, etc.
    Don't meldshapers require Constitution? And don't undead meldshapers need a feat tax?


    I'm going to give the Necromental +0*. It has some serious drawbacks, but enough perks that you aren't going to be completely crippled by taking it. Making a build that benefits from being a necromental would be tricky, but I have no doubt it's possible.
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  4. - Top - End - #1084
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    I'll concur with +0*.
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  5. - Top - End - #1085
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Gotta admit I'm surprised by this one. Necromental gets +0*. Necropolitan is up next. That ought to be fun.
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    It is a major flaw in the game. Destroy a moon? Sure. Talk to somebody a hundred miles away, that's going to be difficult.
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    Realistically speaking... D&D style magic doesn't exist, so... let's ignore reality.

  6. - Top - End - #1086
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Debatra View Post
    Gotta admit I'm surprised by this one. Necromental gets +0*. Necropolitan is up next. That ought to be fun.
    Did you assume it was going to be -0?

  7. - Top - End - #1087
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Necropolitan

    A Necropolitan Human

    Acquired or Inherited: Acquired
    Applied To: Any Humanoid or Monstrous Humanoid
    Size & Type: Size Unchanged, Type becomes Undead (Augmented)
    Space/Reach: Unchanged
    Hit Dice: Increase to D12
    Speed: Unchanged
    Ability Scores: Str +0, Dex +0, Con -, Int +0, Wis +0, Cha +0 - Net +0, no penalties
    Armor Class: Unchanged
    Skills: Unchanged
    CR: Unchanged
    WotC LA: +0 (see text)
    Our LA: +0

    The quintessential "I'm undead now" template. Elegant in its simplicity, because it does almost nothing else. You get +2 turn resistance, a +2 profane bonus to saves against the Control Undead spell, and you retain the ability to heal HP and ability damage as if you were still alive. (Though the Heal skill still doesn't work on you.)

    Instead of LA, WotC decided the price of this template should be 3,000gp, as well as a level and 1,000 XP lost. If either or both of these costs would reduce you to 0 XP or less, you are destroyed, crumble to dust, and can't be raised by any means. Since losing a level puts you at the XP midpoint of your new lower level, and that part happens before the 1k XP, you have to be at least level 3 to become a Necropolitan. You then become level 2 with nothing more than the thousand XP you need to stay there. Oddly, the XP loss notes that it can make you lose another level; but this isn't actually possible because of the aforementioned "midpoint of your new lower level" rule.

    If you just want to be undead without any fancy tricks or big drawbacks, this is probably the simplest way to go about it. ...Well, out of character at least. In character, the Ritual of Crucimigration (Yes, a portmanteau of crucifixion and immigration.) is 24 hours of excruciating pain described as feeling like molten metal in your veins.
    Last edited by Debatra; 2021-04-21 at 12:52 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by SassyQuatch View Post
    It is a major flaw in the game. Destroy a moon? Sure. Talk to somebody a hundred miles away, that's going to be difficult.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rizban View Post
    Realistically speaking... D&D style magic doesn't exist, so... let's ignore reality.

  8. - Top - End - #1088
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Personal opinion on this one, and I expect disagreement, but necropolition is the go to trick for undead type and immunities in most optimization. I think instead of the xp cost and gold cost, an LA of +1 might be worth considering. It takes it from a no brainer choice for any build that likes being undead and forces you to at least think about it.
    Assuming buy off it would only be a bit more expensive XP wise, although we don't assume that for the purpose of this thread.

    Also I wish they picked a cooler name, necropolition makes me think of undead ice cream... yuck!
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  9. - Top - End - #1089
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Roninblack View Post
    Personal opinion on this one, and I expect disagreement, but necropolition is the go to trick for undead type and immunities in most optimization. I think instead of the xp cost and gold cost, an LA of +1 might be worth considering. It takes it from a no brainer choice for any build that likes being undead and forces you to at least think about it.
    Assuming buy off it would only be a bit more expensive XP wise, although we don't assume that for the purpose of this thread.

    Also I wish they picked a cooler name, necropolition makes me think of undead ice cream... yuck!
    In your experience, how common is it in actual play? It's very common in theory craft and suggested builds, but how many times have you seen it in actual use?

    I don't have much experience actually playing with LM material, so I can't know for sure, but I have a feeling the current price is a more serious deterent in actual play than it is in, say, Iron Chef. What do you think?

  10. - Top - End - #1090
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    I don't even really see LA +1 as all that controversial. The template already explicitly sets you back a level in total XP when you take it, plus a little bit extra. It's effectively LA +1 already, but in such a way that normally the "XP Is A River" phenomenon covers it up instead of LA buyoff.


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  11. - Top - End - #1091
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    Thumbs up Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Necropolitan is an interesting one.

    An argument could be made that undead immunities, with no drawbacks* other than undead status itself, are worthy of a +1.

    Type change to undead, d12 HD, +2 save vs. control undead, +2 turn resistance, and the ability to heal "naturally" over time like a living creature (which most undead don't get).

    The cost of which is normal undead stuff (loss of Con etc.), *and the loss of 1 level plus additional loss of 1000xp (and 3000gp).

    I think this is one where WotC got the LA right: I vote LA +0. It's a strong +0, especially in the right build (Wizard etc.), but I can live with that.

  12. - Top - End - #1092
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    +0. A no-brainer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roninblack View Post
    Also I wish they picked a cooler name, necropolition makes me think of undead ice cream... yuck!
    The first time I read the name I misread it as "necropolitician".
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  13. - Top - End - #1093
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Necropolitan always makes me wish there was a playable Deathless (I don't count Deathless Watcher at LA +5 or Risen Martyr as playable). I mean, you can file the serial numbers off Necropolitan, but an official one would have been nice.

  14. - Top - End - #1094
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    I did see a game with a Necropolitan in once. Pretty minmaxed dude.

    LA +1 seems fine for me too. It no-sells such a huge pile of dangers.
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    I don't even really see LA +1 as all that controversial. The template already explicitly sets you back a level in total XP when you take it, plus a little bit extra. It's effectively LA +1 already, but in such a way that normally the "XP Is A River" phenomenon covers it up instead of LA buyoff.
    I mean if there wasn't a money and exp cost sure but LA +1 is double charging. You are already loosing exp to become a Necropolitan, +0 LA.

  16. - Top - End - #1096
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    With the entry method given? It's +0. A decent +0, especially if you can build for it ahead of time (like dumping Con).

    If it was a template you took, I still don't think it's +1.

    Getting blasted out of existence by a cleric boss (Sun), or dominated - which might be worse (evil turner), or disabled (any turner) is pretty serious stuff. And it'll happen 50% of the time if you meet one, without a lot you can do about it. (assumption, a boss will be 2 levels higher than you, so your +2 bonus is a wash. And any extra turning resistance you get can be countered by turning boosters)

    Sure, you get a few immunities. But no stats.

    +0

  17. - Top - End - #1097
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    The cost in the book is a fair one. Given the lost xp, I say +0.

  18. - Top - End - #1098
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Debatra View Post
    Gotta admit I'm surprised by this one. Necromental gets +0*. Necropolitan is up next. That ought to be fun.
    my disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined.

    onwards, i suppose.

    As for Necropolitan? easy +0 it already has a built in cost and that cost is plenty.
    Last edited by Remuko; 2021-04-16 at 09:04 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #1099
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    This is weird because if you already got it during character creation it’s not much of a downside but it is if you have to take that into count.
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  20. - Top - End - #1100
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    This is weird because if you already got it during character creation it’s not much of a downside but it is if you have to take that into count.
    If I was DMing a group starting above first level, and one wanted to be a Necropolitan, I'd probably have them start 1 level behind standard LA +0 characters, and with 3000gp less starting wealth.

    Would that be too punitive, I wonder?

  21. - Top - End - #1101
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    If I was DMing a group starting above first level, and one wanted to be a Necropolitan, I'd probably have them start 1 level behind standard LA +0 characters, and with 3000gp less starting wealth.

    Would that be too punitive, I wonder?
    I mean, with the "XP is a river" thing it probably wouldn't be too crippling if the game is long enough? The gold at least is much less of an issue at higher levels, though it takes quite a while for it to become pocket change.

    Incidentally, most Necropolitans are going to be caster-types right?
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  22. - Top - End - #1102
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    I can agree to LA +0 if we're assuming the GP/XP cost stays in place. But I'm of the opinion that since we're redoing the cost for things, it makes sense for this to be an LA +1 template instead of gp/xp cost to keep things uniform.

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    I mean, with the "XP is a river" thing it probably wouldn't be too crippling if the game is long enough? The gold at least is much less of an issue at higher levels, though it takes quite a while for it to become pocket change.

    Incidentally, most Necropolitans are going to be caster-types right?
    If I were making slight changes all around the edition, I'd take away the Necropolitan costs and make it an LA +1 template. My reasoning is that "XP Is A River" phenomenon will eventually catch you up to your allies, effectively meaning you get to have the equivalent of LA buyoff even in a game where buyoff isn't allowed. Changing it to purely LA as the cost makes it uniform.
    Last edited by AvatarVecna; 2021-04-17 at 03:52 AM.


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  23. - Top - End - #1103
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by AvatarVecna View Post
    I can agree to LA +0 if we're assuming the GP/XP cost stays in place. But I'm of the opinion that since we're redoing the cost for things, it makes sense for this to be an LA +1 template instead of gp/xp cost to keep things uniform.
    If we were to agree to do away with the level/XP loss and GP, I would agree with +1.

  24. - Top - End - #1104
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    I fwel like we need a ruling: are we adding LA to the established cost of the ritual, or are we replacing the ritual with LA?

  25. - Top - End - #1105
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    I fwel like we need a ruling: are we adding LA to the established cost of the ritual, or are we replacing the ritual with LA?
    I'm pretty sure that Avatar_Vecna and Thurbane are both proposing the latter. Either way, there's got to be something noted about the template however we go, because the old way needs you to dock a level and 1k XP as well as 3k gold, and the new way sets you at +1 with no actual way to effectively buy that off(as we do not consider those rules here).

    Incidentally, how long would it take for "XP is a river" to catch you up to the rest of the players, and how much of an impact would it have then? I'm pretty sure being undead never becomes useless, but at high level the benefits can often be replicated with gold, magic, and/or class features while the costs are a bit harder to mitigate. There's a reason a lot of high-level undead either have Unholy Toughness or ridiculous HD bloat.
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Pretty quickly, actually. You gain approximately 30% more XP for facing the same threats as someone a level higher than you, so whilst you'll always be behind, you'll catch up soon enough.

    I agree that if this is applied as a template without the XP loss, this is an easy LA +1.

  27. - Top - End - #1107
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    I'm pretty sure that Avatar_Vecna and Thurbane are both proposing the latter.
    No, I'd much rather review it as written, I was just agreeing that IF the ritual and XP/level loss were removed, I could see this is a +1 template.

    I'd prefer monsters be reviewed "as is", with as little house ruling or home brewing as possible.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    No, I'd much rather review it as written, I was just agreeing that IF the ritual and XP/level loss were removed, I could see this is a +1 template.

    I'd prefer monsters be reviewed "as is", with as little house ruling or home brewing as possible.
    Ah. Yeah, I get what you mean, and I agree with the "as is" approach.
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Assuming we keep the ritual as is, I favor a +0 LA.
    Last edited by H_H_F_F; 2021-04-17 at 12:56 PM.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    I've seen Necropolitan in play several times, both as an LA +0 template with the ritual costs enforced, and an LA +1 template with the ritual costs waived. I think it works well both ways, but the ritual cost and LA cost aren't always equivalent to one another. Some players I've played with are more than willing to pay the ritual cost, because it's only a temporary lag; while others really can't stand the level loss. In gestalt, it's especially weird, because the ritual costs make you lose both "sides" of one level, which effectively means the template doesn't actually take up a permanent space in your build; but if you instead take it as LA +1, it's a permanent loss of one "side" of one level, but your WBL is still intact and you have a slightly better situation at startup.

    I don't really like the weirdness of the ritual, so I personally prefer to assess LA +1 and ignore the ritual costs. But I think I can get behind Thurbane's reasoning: I'll vote LA +0 for the necropolitan template, with ritual costs enforced per RAW.

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