LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

[Blue Jay]

I think WotC got this one right: LA +2 for the Gravetouched Ghoul.

[liquidformat]

On the one hand, we recently had an undead that had a super-slow spawn ability that didn't give control over the spawn (Blood Amniote), and it still got an asterisk. On the other hand, the original Ghoul trio didn't get asterisks, so....hrm...

comparing Blood Amniote's spawning to ghoul spawning ability is like comparing apples to oranges. Blood's spawning ability has enough there for abuse, it never says you have reset the con count technically speaking a reading of it that after you hit total con damage = hp each time you dealt another point of con damage you could self spawn. And there are possibly other abuses that could be used.

On the other hand ghoul's disease requires host to die from it and to be frank that isn't very easy to do, you are pretty much left to almost killing the person while successfully infecting them then tying them up so they can't go get healed so they will die after 24 hours, then waiting maybe another 12 to 24 hours until midnight the following day for them to rise again. You are looking at a day and a half to two days before you can get a new undead you have no control over and that will most likely be the crappy version of ghoul.

By the time you put in that much effort to raise a ghoul you deserve those ghouls!

Anyways I am happy with +2 LA on this one seems about right. Frankly I am surprised the normal ghoul got +1, I think it should probably be +0.

[danielxcutter]

Amusingly, the template makes you chaotic evil but doesn't apparently disqualify you from using monk abilities if the sample statblock is any indication? Of course, Swordsage's still better.

The paralysis DC is Cha-based, which is a shame, but at least it also scales on HD. And you can spam it too! With the stat bonuses you can probably afford to have a halfway decent Cha while being a Swordsage.

[H_H_F_F]

Very effective in early levels, though I'm not sure ifit retains that effectiveness later on, when more and more enemies will be immune to either poison or paralasys. The ability adjustments are excellent, no doubt, but I have safety concerns. The grave touched ghoul is at the frontline, and doesn't have the AC/DR/Miss chance other melee undead have.

I'm therefore trending towards a very strong LA+1, despite +2 being my initial instincts. Thoughts?

[Caelestion]

LA +2 may be a bit conservative, but I'm cautious of such ratings as "very strong X", as that way only leads to power creep and LA deflation.

[danielxcutter]

Very effective in early levels, though I'm not sure ifit retains that effectiveness later on, when more and more enemies will be immune to either poison or paralasys. The ability adjustments are excellent, no doubt, but I have safety concerns. The grave touched ghoul is at the frontline, and doesn't have the AC/DR/Miss chance other melee undead have.

I'm therefore trending towards a very strong LA+1, despite +2 being my initial instincts. Thoughts?

Technically it's a disease not poison, which is worse due to being even slower and easier to be immune to, and you're not really killing people with it as an adventurer anyways.

Also the stat bonuses this gets lend themselves very well to classes that can get high AC. Swordsage is the "obvious" choice, and even if your DM won't let you go Monk just because the example statblock is one Ninja might actually work since you get significant boosts to both your Dexterity and Wisdom. Psychic Warrior, Ardent, and Cleric are also viable options.

[H_H_F_F]

LA +2 may be a bit conservative, but I'm cautious of such ratings as "very strong X", as that way only leads to power creep and LA deflation.

I'm not sure I get the concern. All I meant was this was either at the very upper end of LA +1, or the very lower end of LA +2. IMO, if this is not a "very strong" +1, it's a "very weak" +2. Power lays on a spectrum, and in the end we can't give things LA +1.9 and the like.

Is it common/required practice to take the conservative approach for every edge case?

[Tzardok]

Amusingly, the template makes you chaotic evil but doesn't apparently disqualify you from using monk abilities if the sample statblock is any indication? Of course, Swordsage's still better.

The paralysis DC is Cha-based, which is a shame, but at least it also scales on HD. And you can spam it too! With the stat bonuses you can probably afford to have a halfway decent Cha while being a Swordsage.

Well, you don't lose your monk abilities when changing alignment, you only lose the ability to take more monk levels. So that's alright with an acquired template.

[Caelestion]

Is it common/required practice to take the conservative approach for every edge case?

It's certainly not required, no, but I consider it better to over-estimate and be generous later, than to under-estimate and seem unduly harsh in retrospect. Besides which, the 2 HD ghoul scored a +1 LA, so it only stands to reason that a template that gives you ghoul goodies without RHD would be +2, rather than +1.

[Debatra]

To be fair, being literally ghouls that keep everything they had in life is pretty sweet! In terms of abilities I mean.

In this particular case, I meant "just" as a way to say "simply", not to imply it's a bad thing or somehow lacking. I could have been clearer.

• Ghoul fever: Humanoids who die of the disease rise as ghouls or ghasts, but not under your control, and the process takes days.

The process takes up to 24 hours, not "days". They rise "the next midnight".

I don't think the spawn will have much of an effect on gameplay, considering how long the process takes, and the fact they aren't under your control.

On the one hand, we recently had an undead that had a super-slow spawn ability that didn't give control over the spawn (Blood Amniote), and it still got an asterisk. On the other hand, the original Ghoul trio didn't get asterisks, so....hrm...

I'm fairly sure the only reason the original Ghouls didn't get asterisks is because they came up before asterisks were a thing, and then when Inevitability went back to put asterisks on the older stuff it just didn't occur to anyone that Ghoul Fever caused spawn creation (or maybe that it even existed). I'd be willing to go back and give them an asterisk for it. (Also, a lot of the older stuff just plain didn't get a lot of discussion.)

Amusingly, the template makes you chaotic evil but doesn't apparently disqualify you from using monk abilities if the sample statblock is any indication?

Monks don't actually lose anything if they become non-Lawful. They just can't advance anymore.

Is it common/required practice to take the conservative approach for every edge case?

It's not a requirement, but I tend to err on the side of lower LA when it comes to edge cases.

EDIT:

It's certainly not required, no, but I consider it better to over-estimate and be generous later, than to under-estimate and seem unduly harsh in retrospect. Besides which, the 2 HD ghoul scored a +1 LA, so it only stands to reason that a template that gives you ghoul goodies without RHD would be +2, rather than +1.

Even at +2 LA we're generally in "strictly better" territory just because you get to keep everything your base race gives you while dodging a pair of Undead HD, as well as having Multiattack be a bonus feat instead of one you just have to take to better use your natural weapons. +3 would probably be too much though.

...I don't usually vote here unless it's to break a tie, but I think put me down for +2*. (The asterisk is of course still up for debate. I'm only currently leaning more in favor of it.)

[Remuko]

I think its +1. Its not weak by any means, but I don't think its worth losing two levels over. The disease is meh, the defensive stuff is meh, the offensive stuff is meh, the stat boosts are small (but numerous). I just can't see it being worth +2.

[Tzardok]

I'll agree with +2.

[InvisibleBison]

Gravetouched ghoul seems like a +2 to me as well. I don't think it merits an asterisk, given how slow and uncertain the disease is.

[H_H_F_F]

Technically... not poison

Oh, damn. I wasn't actually talking about the disease, but about the paralasys. I remembered ghoul paralasys as deriving from poison, which would mean either immunity would work against it. I don't know where I got that idea. Previous edition, perhaps? Translation issue?

Also the stat bonuses this gets lend themselves very well to classes that can get high AC. Swordsage is the "obvious" choice, and even if your DM won't let you go Monk just because the example statblock is one Ninja might actually work since you get significant boosts to both your Dexterity and Wisdom. Psychic Warrior, Ardent, and Cleric are also viable options.

Good points.

I'm comfortable giving an LA +2 to the gravetouched ghoul.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I'm fine with +2/+2* (no strong opinions on the asterisk). I once payed +4 for it in a Villainous Competition (which runs on CR), and thought it was expensive but worthwhile.

[danielxcutter]

Why is it CR +4? Was that changed in the errata? Because here it only says it's a CR+1 template.

[NotInventedHere]

I'm looking at my copy of Libris Mortis and the Libris Mortis errata document, and the only errata note for the Gravetouched Ghoul is this:

Page 104: Sample Gravetouched Ghoul
Change the creature’s statistics as follows:
Alignment: Chaotic evil

There's nothing about CR +4 anywhere I can see?

[danielxcutter]

I'm looking at my copy of Libris Mortis and the Libris Mortis errata document, and the only errata note for the Gravetouched Ghoul is this:


There's nothing about CR +4 anywhere I can see?

There was a couple of mentions of that in the thread, I dunno what's going on.

[liquidformat]

Why is it CR +4? Was that changed in the errata? Because here it only says it's a CR+1 template.

Mine says CR +1

The process takes up to 24 hours, not "days". They rise "the next midnight".

No you are looking at anywhere from 25 hours to 48 hours to create a ghoul. 24 hours incubation period plus until the next midnight.

I'm fairly sure the only reason the original Ghouls didn't get asterisks is because they came up before asterisks were a thing, and then when Inevitability went back to put asterisks on the older stuff it just didn't occur to anyone that Ghoul Fever caused spawn creation (or maybe that it even existed). I'd be willing to go back and give them an asterisk for it. (Also, a lot of the older stuff just plain didn't get a lot of discussion.)

I disagree, as I stated upthread the time and effort you have to put in to actually create ghouls with ghoul fever is enough of a hinderance that this doesn't need an asterisk. Humanoids that fail their save and contract ghoul fevor are automatically going to die from it, you also have to do enough damage to put them on the edge of death without actually killing them then prevent them from getting healed for 24 hours then wait another hour to 24 hours for the next midnight. That is a decent amount of effort, in fact it is more effort than you have to put in for Fell Animate. Given the fact that it is more effort than Fell Animate I see no reason for an asterisk.

Even at +2 LA we're generally in "strictly better" territory just because you get to keep everything your base race gives you while dodging a pair of Undead HD, as well as having Multiattack be a bonus feat instead of one you just have to take to better use your natural weapons. +3 would probably be too much though.

...I don't usually vote here unless it's to break a tie, but I think put me down for +2*. (The asterisk is of course still up for debate. I'm only currently leaning more in favor of it.)

This sounds like a pretty solid argument in favor of changing standard ghoul to LA +0

[Blue Jay]

The process takes up to 24 hours, not "days". They rise "the next midnight".

I think Thurbane is also including the disease's incubation period as part of the "process." You don't take any ability damage from ghoul fever until after the incubation period, which is 1 day. So the fastest the fever can kill you is 24 hours. So really, the entire process takes a minimum of 24-48 hours, and the average time is probably about a week.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I'm looking at my copy of Libris Mortis and the Libris Mortis errata document, and the only errata note for the Gravetouched Ghoul is this:


There's nothing about CR +4 anywhere I can see?

Huh, the quick reference I was using (realmshelps) lists it as +4. Well that's disappointing; I apparently overpayed by a factor of 4! *sad trombone noises*

[NotInventedHere]

Huh, the quick reference I was using (realmshelps) lists it as +4. Well that's disappointing; I apparently overpayed by a factor of 4! *sad trombone noises*

I looked it up on realmshelps and yeah you're right, they do have it down at +4. I have no idea why. Did someone maybe... misread a 1 as a 4??

[Troacctid]

In my warlock handbook, I have it listed as a template that some builds will want even at the full printed LA. I think that is a good sign that you've hit a sweet spot.

[Thurbane]

The process takes up to 24 hours, not "days". They rise "the next midnight".

I was factoring in incubation time plus the amount of time it will take the ability damage to kill the victim - if it kills them at all, and they don't fight it off/get cured in the meantime.

Huh, the quick reference I was using (realmshelps) lists it as +4. Well that's disappointing; I apparently overpayed by a factor of 4! *sad trombone noises*

I misread that as *sad tombstone noises*, which made me chuckle.

I looked it up on realmshelps and yeah you're right, they do have it down at +4. I have no idea why. Did someone maybe... misread a 1 as a 4??

Could be a simple typo - the 4 is right above the 1 on the numeric keypad.

[Debatra]

This sounds like a pretty solid argument in favor of changing standard ghoul to LA +0

That was taking into account the +1 we gave it, not just the two RHD. At LA equal to the Ghoul's RHD+LA it becomes a question of whether the base creature (including its own RHD and LA) is worth that much more than the standard Ghoul since, while Undead RHD aren't exactly amazing, they're at least better than the nothing an equal amount of LA gives. So either rating the standard Ghoul at +0 or the Gravetouched Ghoul at +3 would take it out of the "strictly better" territory in this specific comparison, but I'm not sure it would be worth the extra point.

[GreatWyrmGold]

But we need to assume some way that all the unintelligent creatures of the game are intelligent when we rate them.

Yes, but we've avoided assuming that method is the awaken spell. There are plenty of alternatives with less hard-to-rate baggage.

I guess the first thing to discuss is whether or not to count Ghoul Fever as an uncapped Spawn ability. Any Humanoid that dies from it becomes a Ghoul (or a Ghast if they had at least 4 HD) the next midnight. That said, it's a disease instead of something you can realistically do in combat. The Wight-ocalypse this is not. All that was said of regular Ghouls on the subject was "As it is, it'll probably has some niche use in giving the party cleric commandable fodder."

Uncapped spawn abilities come in two problematic varieties. The first are the ones which let the creator control their endless spawn; these are always worth an asterisk, because infinite minionmancy is impossible to balance. The second are the ones which allow for an exponential super-zombie apocalypse, and ghoul fever theoretically falls into that category.
However, it takes at least four days for anything with at least 10 Constitution to die of ghoul fever, and even an average human commoner who doesn't receive any medical care has a 40% chance of not taking damage each night and a 16% chance of making two successful saves in a row (for any given pair of nights); I'd probably want to throw together a simulation to be sure, but even without that I can tell you that a substantial number of victims wouldn't be turned.

Remember, an afflicted humanoid needs to die of ghoul fever to rise as a ghoul, not just while infected with ghoul fever.

They are also Diet-Dependent on flesh, which they have to actually consume instead of feeding with some special ability. But if you're using those rules, then the table on page 9 of LM also indicates that regular Ghouls and Ghasts get that too.

And let's face it, flesh is practically the easiest undead diet to fulfil. It doesn't even have to be humanoid flesh, or even fresh; if you aren't stuck on Mechanicus or something, you should have a ready supply wherever you go, even if you have to hunt small game or buy steaks to satiate your hunger. (Oh no, buying food.)

On the one hand, we recently had an undead that had a super-slow spawn ability that didn't give control over the spawn (Blood Amniote), and it still got an asterisk.

Putting aside that "deal Constitution damage equal to your hit points" is easier to control/accelerate than "wait for someone to die of disease," the blood amniote has the additional complication that the "spawn" are in fact identical copies of the original. Whether this means that two book-stat amniotes are created (destroying the original) or that the PC clones itself, that's a lot more disruptive than throwing around a bog-standard ghoul.


Gravetouched Ghoul is a decent template; it gives a bunch of little bonuses, and only costs your life and your ability to enjoy vegan food.
The biggest boost you get are three claws that can potentially paralyze enemies for a few rounds; I could easily see a one-on-one fight between a level-appropriate monster and a gravetouched ghoul ending with the monster being paralocked* while the ghoul clawed it to death, forcing 6-15 new saving throws per failed save. (Unless paralysis is enough for a quick coup-de-grace, which I just realized it probably is.) That's a handy trick, to be sure, but I'm not sure how you could build a character centered around it (aside from increasing the DC), and it almost certainly doesn't mesh with your party's tactics.

It's not as "what the heck do you build with this" as some monsters, but the perks you get—bonuses to all remaining ability scores, a few natural weapons, a boost to natural armor—don't lend themselves to some obvious potent strategy like other monsters do. Everyone's Most people (including everyone who posted on the page I'd realized existed when I first posted this) are saying +2 so far, and I think that sounds right.

*Paralyze-locked. Like stunlocked, except not with the stunned condition.

[Efrate]

I am wobbling between +1 and +2. I think it scrapes into +2. Just because it is basically all upside. Buy a steak, or a cow, and yer fine. Or hell jerky prolly counts and that is normal rations.

Which makes me wonder, ghouls are intelligent, why not just become shepards to some creature that doesnt flip out at undead. Raise some chickens maybe?

[Falontani]

I like ghouls. I frequently use them. As monsters, but even as characters. Gravetouched Ghoul is a ghoul with their racial stuff still. LA +2 is a good place for the Gravetouched Ghoul.

As for the regular Ghoul. I wasn't even on these forums yet when it was first rated. So what is the value of 2 undead racial HD. 2d12, +1 BAB, +3 will, base 4 skill points/level. A not great skill list (it is enough for a basic monk type, but... alignment). This isn't worth nothing. But most people would prefer to take a class with the ghoul stuff.

So I'm at a conundrum. I think that the ghoul chassis on the undead HD is powerful enough to warrant an LA +1. I'd play a base ghoul at LA +1. But I don't think that the gravetouched ghoul template is worth LA +3. It is strictly better than Ghoul though. So why do I think that it isn't worth LA +3? Well that is because of Vampire and to a lesser extent, lich. I am 100% positive that Vampire is more powerful than Gravetouched Ghoul. Even without the unlimited spawning potential of a vampire. I am confident that the Lich Template sans spellcasting is more powerful than a Gravetouched Ghoul. Yet I am confident that I would play a Gravetouched Ghoul or a Ghoul whenever I am playing within an undead campaign. I have played a Ghoul with LA +1 in Inevitability's monstrous campaign thing that he did on these forums. I was thoroughly happy with my character, and felt that I brought much to the table.

tldr:
GT Ghoul < Vampire means that GT Ghoul is not worth LA +3
GT Ghoul > Ghoul which means that it is worth more than Ghoul is
Ghoul > 3 levels in nearly any T3 class, and I would say is even worth it on a spellcaster, even through losing those precious spellcaster levels

I would play a Ghoul at LA 0 if it matched whatever type of character I was playing and worked in the campaign. Every time.
At LA +1 I will frequently look at the ghoul, and think to myself, maybe.

I feel like I am going in circles here.

ttldr: I can't rate this one. If I had to rate this one I would rate it at ~2.5. Which isn't helpful.

[Morphic tide]

tldr:
GT Ghoul < Vampire means that GT Ghoul is not worth LA +3
GT Ghoul > Ghoul which means that it is worth more than Ghoul is
Ghoul > 3 levels in nearly any T3 class, and I would say is even worth it on a spellcaster, even through losing those precious spellcaster levels

The resolution is that with LA +2 you lose an extra hit die, meaning that you lose out on having any progression for one more level. LA +2 is significantly worse than LA +1 alongside 1 RHD, and LA +3 is abysmal compared to LA +1 and 2 RHD. This is much less relevant owing to the loss of Constitution score in both cases and the acquisition of d12 for all hit dice, but even still you're BAB neutral at best compared to a Ghoul and behind a level of skill points.

The other is of course that Lich and Vampire don't work well for the same characters, so a Gravetouched Ghoul is LA +3 for the hardcore Martials those two are poor for. A Vampire only gets one Energy Drain and one Blood Drain per round, whereas a Gravetouched Ghoul gets as many Paralyze saves as they can get Claw and Bite attacks, and there are plenty of ways to get more of those. Even if they're probably sub-optimal for a Totemist for the lost feats, they'll still be para-locking with truly hideous reliability.

[danielxcutter]

I do wish to point out that the paralysis is Charisma based. Your stat bonuses do help you spare the points, yes, and it also scales on HD - it's just that for the most "obvious" choices you're probably not going to be pumping your Charisma.