LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

[Blue Jay]

Spoiler: Re: Golem

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Note: I'm still using spoilers, because we've already moved on to another monster and I don't want to distract too much from that. But, the golem went by so fast, I didn't get a chance to post anything before the thread had moved on. So, I'm still interested in continuing the discussion, but in spoilers.

I disagree with that reasoning. Prescriptive language is used for frenzy because frenzied berserker is expected to be taken by PC's. Descriptive language is used for the golem because it going Berserk is meant as an event in an encounter, because the writers never imagined the golem as playable. Reading it as meaningless isn't a faithful reading, IMO.

Okay, but the Berserk quality represents how a golem behaves when it breaks free from its master's control. With a golem PC, there shouldn't be a controller to break free from. So, the question is, how does this ability work when the golem is free-willed? I think it shouldn't ever come up, because the Berserk quality is a consequence of a master/thrall relationship that doesn't apply to a free-willed golem. But, it seems like most people think you have to treat a golem PC as its own controller, and then roll dice to see if it breaks free from itself. But that's actually quite a big divergence from how the ability works and what it represents. If we want an asterisk for this, I'm okay with it, because it's a real source of confusion, and a note could be useful for would-be DMs. But I honestly feel like it's just a complete misreading of the text, and it feels weird to me that the monster's rating is partially determined by a misreading of the text.

[Falontani]

Not really arguing with what anyone has said about Half Vampire or Hooded Pupil thus far; but I do want to point out that Children of the Night is absolutely amazing for a Half Vampire Child. Even a pair of wolves called forth to defend you and your friends for an hour (even to play with) once a day is more than enough for most bullies, great for dealing with any adult commoner, and even a guardsman. Swap the wolves out for a swarm and you have yourself something that will fight off most mundane threats for you. I'd say that a Half Vampire Commoner up to about level 6 is better off with Children of the Night than either of the other two attacks. The charm is absolutely the best ability, but probably rather addictive and will turn most half vampires at least towards chaotic. Now if you are in an actual fight then Children of the Night isn't going to do anything unless you use it and then begin running away from your problem. Twelve seconds against someone or something trying to kill you is way too long.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Neither of these is accurate. The asterisk is for things that easily create runaway imbalances (like uncapped spawn creation) or things that make it impossible for the monster to function as a PC (like being unable to leave a specific location, like a dryad).

I'd argue that "can be randomly and permanently forced into a berserk state" would make it impossible for a monster to function as a PC.
Also, let's look at an Inevitability quote posted in the first post of this thread:

The asterisk is not necessarily 'this will be tricky to normally use'. It denotes 'this has an ability that would be completely broken if allowed, and the rating assumes you remove it'.
...
What monsters did get an asterisk? Those whose abilities would innately and effortlessly disrupt any campaign. A dryad can't be used in any campaign that involves 'going places'. A shadow can't be used in any campaign that involves interaction with humanoids. An efreet can't be used in any campaign that involves, well, the PCs having goals.

(emphasis mine)
Clearly, limits to noncombat interactions can be grounds for an asterisk. Berserk golems can't be used in campaigns which involve not punching everything into paste.

And I didn't say that Berserk is going to be removed: I said that, even if it's not removed, it will have no effect.

I can see where you're coming from, but to me, a DM ruling that an ability's wording can be ignored on a technicality like "You don't have a master, so you can't disobey their orders to rampage" isn't meaningfully distinct from just saying you don't have the ability.

Okay, but the Berserk quality represents how a golem behaves when it breaks free from its master's control. With a golem PC, there shouldn't be a controller to break free from. So, the question is, how does this ability work when the golem is free-willed?

Let's look at the ability description to see if it has any insight to offer.

An uncontrolled golem goes on a rampage, attacking the nearest living creature or smashing some object smaller than itself if no creature is within reach, then moving on to spread more destruction.

Hm. You know, I think I've been wrong this whole time. A golem without a controller would, by RAW, go berserk automatically—no roll (or combat) required. After all, it it quite literally uncontrolled, and the berserk ability doesn't specify that it needs to be berserk, just uncontrolled.

[C]hildren of the Night is horrible, you have to wait 2d6 rounds for a small handful of crappy monsters.

Not that it isn't horrible, but you get to keep them for an hour. If I had that ability, I'd summon them before I got into the dungeon.

[Roninblack]

I'll add 1 more +1 for hooded pupil

[Blue Jay]

Spoiler: Re: Golem

Show

Last comment on the golem. I haven't fully appreciated how confusing the Berserk quality is: obviously, not everyone thinks it's as self-evident as I do, so I'm going to support adding the asterisk, because it's clearly going to be a point of confusion and question for a lot of DMs.

Because of that, I would also advocate going back and adding asterisks to the other Berserk golems (clay and flesh). I'm not sure what other ones there may have been.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Let's look at the ability description to see if it has any insight to offer.

Hm. You know, I think I've been wrong this whole time. A golem without a controller would, by RAW, go berserk automatically—no roll (or combat) required. After all, it it quite literally uncontrolled, and the berserk ability doesn't specify that it needs to be berserk, just uncontrolled.

If you want to go by lore, and not just RAW, it is not that the golem is uncontrolled by a master that makes it berserk.
A golem has inside of it an elemental spirit that acts as its brain/consciousness. The wizard only controls this spirit, and not the golem itself. Hence, a golem goes berserk when the elemental spirit that powers it breaks free of its body. In fact, you could argue both ways. Either the elemental spirit enjoys having a strong, nigh-indestructible body (it is usually an Earth Elemental spirit, after all), and just goes on to live its life, allowing for a PC to be played, or it still considers its mobile prison as a jail and immediately breaks free, resulting in a berserk golem without randomness.

Not really arguing with what anyone has said about Half Vampire or Hooded Pupil thus far; but I do want to point out that Children of the Night is absolutely amazing for a Half Vampire Child. Even a pair of wolves called forth to defend you and your friends for an hour (even to play with) once a day is more than enough for most bullies, great for dealing with any adult commoner, and even a guardsman. Swap the wolves out for a swarm and you have yourself something that will fight off most mundane threats for you. I'd say that a Half Vampire Commoner up to about level 6 is better off with Children of the Night than either of the other two attacks. The charm is absolutely the best ability, but probably rather addictive and will turn most half vampires at least towards chaotic. Now if you are in an actual fight then Children of the Night isn't going to do anything unless you use it and then begin running away from your problem. Twelve seconds against someone or something trying to kill you is way too long.

That is so cute and yet pretty terrifying. Imagine being this kid's teacher at school. One day, you give him a bad mark, and he starts to call out swarms of insects that circle around him and approach to threaten to eat you if you don't go back on your decision.

Anyway, +1 for hooded disciple, the vampire low-cost n°2 doesn't have anything particularly impressive (except with dark chaos feat shuffling, but who allows that?) and doesn't even have rule of cool going for it like the previous one.

In fact, you could play an elemental spirit of Earth whose purpose in life is to engage other golems to free its kin, and get stronger and stronger bodies to maybe take revenge on all who try to build new golems. They'll never see it coming.

[Thurbane]

Hooded Pupil

• +2 natural armor bonus.
• SLA: Clutch of Orcus 1/day, CL 10.
• Drink blood: on a successful pin (or a helpless foe) on an already injured creature, deal 2 Con damage.
• Resist cold 5.
• Spider climb: at will Su Spider Climb.
• Str +2, Wis +2, Cha +2: net +6, no penalties.
• +2 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot checks.
• Alertness, Improved Initiative, and Lightning Reflexes as bonus feats.

All upsides, no downsides. I would definitely take 1 level in a class that gave all of this. Again, in the context of this thread, probably not enough for +2.

Happy to give LA +1 here.

[GreatWyrmGold]

That is so cute and yet pretty terrifying. Imagine being this kid's teacher at school. One day, you give him a bad mark, and he starts to call out swarms of insects that circle around him and approach to threaten to eat you if you don't go back on your decision.

Superpowered kids require superpowered teachers. If you can't get a Mr. Aizawa in your school, someone who can ignore the kid's powers and force them to sit in a corner is a decent back-up.

...I guess the D&D equivalent of Eraserhead would basically be a beholder, huh?

[liquidformat]

Not really arguing with what anyone has said about Half Vampire or Hooded Pupil thus far; but I do want to point out that Children of the Night is absolutely amazing for a Half Vampire Child. Even a pair of wolves called forth to defend you and your friends for an hour (even to play with) once a day is more than enough for most bullies, great for dealing with any adult commoner, and even a guardsman. Swap the wolves out for a swarm and you have yourself something that will fight off most mundane threats for you. I'd say that a Half Vampire Commoner up to about level 6 is better off with Children of the Night than either of the other two attacks. The charm is absolutely the best ability, but probably rather addictive and will turn most half vampires at least towards chaotic. Now if you are in an actual fight then Children of the Night isn't going to do anything unless you use it and then begin running away from your problem. Twelve seconds against someone or something trying to kill you is way too long.

Why would you bother with having a couple of wolves for an hour when you can have the local thugs as your person bodyguards for an indefinite amount of time. On a failed save they are charmed for a minimum of one day and you have no limit to how many people you can try it on so it isn't that hard to have a group of low level goons with you all the time.

Not that it isn't horrible, but you get to keep them for an hour. If I had that ability, I'd summon them before I got into the dungeon.

I guess you could have the swarm or wolves rush the dungeon to setoff traps and pull monsters but besides that an hour is maybe enough time for them to trigger one trap or one enemy if they are travelling with the party. It is better (if you are evil) to just charm a group of villagers to come explore the dungeon with you to help clear traps.

That is so cute and yet pretty terrifying. Imagine being this kid's teacher at school. One day, you give him a bad mark, and he starts to call out swarms of insects that circle around him and approach to threaten to eat you if you don't go back on your decision.

Again why bother threatening the teacher with a horde of insects when you can just charm them and have them change your grade...

[GreatWyrmGold]

Again why bother threatening the teacher with a horde of insects when you can just charm them and have them change your grade...

1. Protection from evil protects against charms, but not wolves. Not even evil wolves.
2. At the point that we're imagining how schoolchildren would use these powers, mechanical effectiveness isn't really a consideration.

(Also worth pointing out that children of the night is infallible, while charming gaze requires a failed saving throw.)

[Beni-Kujaku]

Superpowered kids require superpowered teachers. If you can't get a Mr. Aizawa in your school, someone who can ignore the kid's powers and force them to sit in a corner is a decent back-up.

...I guess the D&D equivalent of Eraserhead would basically be a beholder, huh?

This does raise a lore question. Children of the night doesn't summon things, it just calls the nearby wolves and insects and then charm them (since they take 2d6 rounds to come). Is the call itself supernatural or does the vampire have some sort of battlecry that replicates a pack's call for help, then dominates the animals. It would be very funny (from a certain point of view) to have the kid and his beholder teacher, the kid gets mad, shouts to call wolves, cannot control them because of the antimagic gaze, and gets devoured.

About the whole "beholders as teachers" thing, I think that the best teachers in a "problem" magic school would be incantifiers. Not only are they impervious to most of their students spells (good luck bypassing that 21 SR when you're a middle schooler), but you litterally are fed by the exercises you give your students ("Now, we're practicing magic missile. All of you, point your scepters towards me and pronounce "Magic Missile" clearly and distinctly. Very good, Kevin! You actually hit me! Now please resume firing so I can heal these 6 damages from Kevin.")

[Thurbane]

1. Protection from evil protects against charms, but not wolves. Not even evil wolves.

Actually, it might, if Children of the Night is considered a summoning effect:

Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by summoned creatures.

...although the wording of CotN doesn't specifically call it out a summoning.

[Beni-Kujaku]

...although the wording of CotN doesn't specifically call it out a summoning.

Children of the Night (Su): Some half-vampires can command the lesser creatures of the world. Once per day, a half-vampire that has this special attack can call forth 1d4 rat swarms, 1d3 bat swarms, or a pack of 1d6 wolves as a standard action. (If the base creature is not terrestrial, this ability might summon other creatures of equivalent power.) These creatures arrive in 2d6 rounds and serve the half-vampire for up to 1 hour.

This ability is weird. It begins with "call forth", which, with the rest of the text, implies that those are only creatures from around the half-vampire that are called, not extraplanar ones; but the "not terrestrial" precision talks about it as summoning creatures...

[Thurbane]

Children of the Night (Su): Some half-vampires can command the lesser creatures of the world. Once per day, a half-vampire that has this special attack can call forth 1d4 rat swarms, 1d3 bat swarms, or a pack of 1d6 wolves as a standard action. (If the base creature is not terrestrial, this ability might summon other creatures of equivalent power.) These creatures arrive in 2d6 rounds and serve the half-vampire for up to 1 hour.

This ability is weird. It begins with "call forth", which, with the rest of the text, implies that those are only creatures from around the half-vampire that are called, not extraplanar ones; but the "not terrestrial" precision talks about it as summoning creatures...

Summon Nature's Ally also does not summon creatures from other planes, but is a Summoning effect. I think CotN is a bit of a corner case, and may require DM adjudication. The fact that it takes the creatures a while to arrive probably means it isn't a Summoning effect as such; however, it also does not rule out using it in areas where the would be no such creatures (nothing saying you couldn't summon wolves in the Underdark, or even on a boat at sea). It's not an overly strong ability, so as a DM, I probably wouldn't hose it any further.

FWIW, if I were playing a half-vamp, I would chose Charm Gaze every time, unless I needed Blood Drain or CotN for some specific build.

[Tzardok]

I would rule that Children of the Night pings creatures in the surroundings, and if the vamp/half-vamp is somewhere where those creatures aren't around, they would need to acclimatize before being able to, I don't know, call a pack of sharks or hyenas.

[Debatra]

Okay guys, take it to a new thread if you want to keep talking about Half-Vampire fluff/builds. We're on the Hooded Pupil.

[One Step Two]

If there was ever a case to be made for LA +1.5, it's the Half Vampire and the Hooded pupil, people have already extolled the virtues for the Half Vampire, but I think the real power of the Hooded Pupil is the fact that it's an Acquired template. It's something that a player can pick when they add it to their progression, rather than slowing down their ability to level initially. Especially if you need any of it's bonus feats as qualifiers for prestige classes. If it had any better SLA's or scaling SR, I'd easily call it +2, but alas it does not.

[Thurbane]

The SLA will also give you a caster level of 10, which may be handy for those PrCs or feats that only check a caster level (and not casting ability).

I feel that it is a pretty solid +1 template, but as I said, not sure I could justify +2.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Spoiler: Gary Gygax and the Ghoul School

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It would be very funny (from a certain point of view) to have the kid and his beholder teacher, the kid gets mad, shouts to call wolves, cannot control them because of the antimagic gaze, and gets devoured.

I mean, that's a very dark kind of joke, but that's what you get when you hire Usually Lawful Evil xenophobes and tell them to babysit a bunch of rambunctious children.

About the whole "beholders as teachers" thing, I think that the best teachers in a "problem" magic school would be incantifiers. Not only are they impervious to most of their students spells (good luck bypassing that 21 SR when you're a middle schooler), but you litterally are fed by the exercises you give your students ("Now, we're practicing magic missile. All of you, point your scepters towards me and pronounce "Magic Missile" clearly and distinctly. Very good, Kevin! You actually hit me! Now please resume firing so I can heal these 6 damages from Kevin.")

That would be handy, but for the 90% of the day when you need the kids to sit still, pay attention, and stop conjuring cute animals or lewd illusions, nothing beats an antimagic field.

[danielxcutter]

I remember some mention of changeling kindergartens and eyes of true seeing or something in a sample campaign hook. Don't remember the details though.

[liquidformat]

The SLA will also give you a caster level of 10, which may be handy for those PrCs or feats that only check a caster level (and not casting ability).

I feel that it is a pretty solid +1 template, but as I said, not sure I could justify +2.

Yeah hoody is a great choice if you want to get into blade dancer for example

[Thurbane]

Yeah hoody is a great choice if you want to get into blade dancer for example

You could also dip Soul Eater, and take the Spell Drain feat. Stealing spells from your enemies without even being a caster is pretty neat.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

10 CL also qualifies you for the Meta SLA feats (or at least Quicken Spell Like Ability), which are great to get early on a Warlock. Nicely flavorful if your powers come from an undead patron, well worth considering if buy-off is in play.

[danielxcutter]

10 CL also qualifies you for the Meta SLA feats (or at least Quicken Spell Like Ability), which are great to get early on a Warlock. Nicely flavorful if your powers come from an undead patron, well worth considering if buy-off is in play.

Quicken SLA only works on a specific SLA though.

[InvisibleBison]

Quicken SLA only works on a specific SLA though.

And it requires that SLA's caster level to be sufficiently high. Having some other SLA with a high caster level doesn't help.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Quicken SLA only works on a specific SLA though.

And it requires that SLA's caster level to be sufficiently high. Having some other SLA with a high caster level doesn't help.

True in the MM I version of the feat (which I didn't know; quick references strike again), but not so in the later versions of the feat.

QUICKEN SPELL-LIKE ABILITY
A creature that has this feat can employ a spell-like ability
with a moment’s thought.

Prerequisite: Spell-like ability at caster level 10th or
higher.

Benefit: The creature can use one of its spell-like abili-
ties as a quickened spell-like ability three times per day

(or less, if the ability is normally usable only once or twice
per day).
Using a quickened spell-like ability is a swift action

that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The crea-
ture can perform another action—including the use of

another spell-like ability—in the same round that it uses
a quickened spell-like ability. The creature can use only
one quickened spell-like ability per round.

The creature can select a only spell-like ability duplicat-
ing a spell of a level less than or equal to half its caster level

(round down) minus 4. For a summary, see the table below.

For example, a creature that uses its spell-like abilities as a
15th-level caster can quicken only spell-like abilities that
duplicate spells of 3rd level or lower. In addition, a spell-like
ability that duplicates a spell with a casting time of greater
than 1 full round cannot be quickened.
Normal: Normally the use of a spell-like ability requires a
standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity unless
otherwise noted.
Special: This feat can be taken multiple times. Each time
it is taken, the creature can apply it to a different one of its
spell-like abilities.

Apologies for the formatting. However, the rule that the selected SLA has to be at least CL 10 is gone; you just have to have at least one SLA that meets that prerequisite. There are a bunch of rules for SLAs that replicate spells, but nothing that prevents a Hooded Disciple Warlock 3 from taking Quicken SLA (Eldritch Blast).

[Debatra]

+1 - InvisibleBison, Troacctid, GreatWyrmGold, Blue Jay, Caelestion, Prime32, PoeticallyPsyco, H_H_F_F, RoninBlack, Beni-Kujaku, Thurbane

With eleven votes, it's a unanimous +1. Hulking Corpse is coming up.

[Debatra]

Hulking Corpse

Size & Type: Large Undead
Space/Reach: 10'/10'
HD: 20
Speed: 30'
Ability Scores: Str +16, Dex +0, Con -, Int -, Wis +2, Cha -2 - Net +16, one penalty
Natural Armor: 12
Natural Weapons: One Primary Bite (2d6), two Secondary Claws (1d6)
Skill List: -
Body Shape: Humanoid
Speech (Languages): No
CR: 9
WotC LA: -
Our LA: -0

Twenty HD (more than double its CR) and all you get is Improved Grab, Rend for 3d6, and DR 5/bludgeoning and magic. See you tomorrow.

[H_H_F_F]

I think the hulking corpse is cool. It's a good "zombie" enemy for higher CR. Its job is to be a dangerous hit point bag at early mid levels, not to hang around ECL 20 parties.

Easy LA -0, obviously.

[AvatarVecna]

Easy -0, next.