LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

[Tzardok]

Any language!!? That's incredible! Surely that will bump it to +1 in no time!

More seriously, I'm not sure, does that count secret languages like druid? Or languages that should not be spoken with a human tongue, like Aboleth or Gnoll languages?

No, secret languages don't count. Gnoll counts; it's among the "common" languages mentioned under Speak Language in the skill description. Wether anything else is common enough (or maybe even count as a secret language) is DM decision.

[NotInventedHere]

Are we even sure that humans can even grab and use weapons? Like, the pictures on PHB 12-13 show them as having some kind of hand or claw, but it's not clear from the picture that they can really grab with them.

I feel it's worth noting that absolutely no Monster Manual entries for "Human" feature them using any weapons. So there's no textual evidence to support weapon-wielding either.

[InvisibleBison]

I feel it's worth noting that absolutely no Monster Manual entries for "Human" feature them using any weapons. So there's no textual evidence to support weapon-wielding either.

All of the human starting packages in the PHB - cleric, fighter, monk, paladin, and sorcerer - feature weapons, so I think it's safe to say that humans can use weapons.

[NotInventedHere]

All of the human starting packages in the PHB - cleric, fighter, monk, paladin, and sorcerer - feature weapons, so I think it's safe to say that humans can use weapons.

The joke is that there's no Monster Manual entry for 'Human'. Dwarf, Elf, Gnome, etc., but not Human.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I feel it's worth noting that absolutely no Monster Manual entries for "Human" feature them using any weapons. So there's no textual evidence to support weapon-wielding either.

Sadly, we're currently covering Libris Mortis, in which Thredra Aranax, page 53, is a human and wields a dagger without malus. We can then assume that humans in general can wield weapons, improbable though it may seem

[Unavenger]

Sadly, we're currently covering Libris Mortis, in which Thredra Aranax, page 53, is a human and wields a dagger without malus. We can then assume that humans in general can wield weapons, improbable though it may seem

I mean, maybe I can see them holding a dagger, but those hands look like they'd have serious problems holding anything much bigger.

[H_H_F_F]

I don't like how the human's fluff doesn't fit the abilities, like, at all. You're going to tell me these things don't have a Wis penalty? Come on.

LA +0 seems like the right fit. It's a great option, but +1 seems like a bit much.

By the way, the favored class: any property which was discussed earlier is actually very useful for any table which uses these rules, IMO. Good for pretty much anything more complex than pure caster.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I don't like how the human's fluff doesn't fit the abilities, like, at all. You're going to tell me these things don't have a Wis penalty? Come on.

A Wis penalty? Come on, that would discourage human clerics! That would be strange for the race of crusades, religion wars and religious terrorism.

[Thurbane]

Human seems to be an easy LA +0. Sure, there are more powerful officially designated LA +0 races out there, but Human seems like a decent base line.

No, secret languages don't count. Gnoll counts; it's among the "common" languages mentioned under Speak Language in the skill description. Wether anything else is common enough (or maybe even count as a secret language) is DM decision.

Fun fact: Tibbit and Dvati from Dragon compendium have any language as a bonus language, and lack the "except secret languages like Druidic" clause that most others have.

[H_H_F_F]

...The race of crusades, religion wars and religious terrorism.

As I said.

A Wis penalty.

[Debatra]

A Wis penalty? Come on, that would discourage human clerics! That would be strange for the race of *snipping so a mod doesn't have to*.

...Okay, we probably want to steer away from this.

[Zecrin]

I mean, a high level wizard can just shapechange into a human, right? Why bother when the wizard just does it better?

LA: -0

[Bavarian itP]

Srsly, guys? A human beatstick gets free power attack. A human cleric gets free DIVINE METAMAGIC. And you don't seem to realize the number of high-op builds whose XP penalty a human just nopes. That XP penalty is the only reason we still see halfling rogues 20 and half-orc barbarians 20. And humans just don't care. Imagine taking a level in a prestige class that gives you these two things and ONE EXTRA SKILL POINT per level, FOREVER. Regardless of the class you take that level in. Is there a prestige class that does this? Of course not, because it would be ridiciously overpowered. I mean, there is a reason why humans are the most populous player race in practically every D&D setting. Not to mention the REAL LIFE setting.

A strong +1, and if I'd play with LA buyoff, I had no scruples to set it to +2.

[danielxcutter]

...How much is this serious and how much is taking the piss?

[H_H_F_F]

...How much is this serious and how much is taking the piss?

I was also confused by this one.

If this is serious, I don't think humans are worth +1 LA. They're very good, but they're very good for LA 0. +1 would render them really bad, especially when compared to other options these threads have given +1.

[AvatarVecna]

I was also confused by this one.

If this is serious, I don't think humans are worth +1 LA. They're very good, but they're very good for LA 0. +1 would render them really bad, especially when compared to other options these threads have given +1.

I agree with this. +0.

Human is the golden standard against which all other races are judged. Both thematically and mechanically they should be LA +0 (albeit a strong one). There are many other races that are competitive, at least under some general circumstances, that also warrant +0. Many many default races are probably too niche or too penalized to deserve that, though, and would maybe warrant a -0 instead.

[Remuko]

...How much is this serious and how much is taking the piss?

I was also confused by this one.

If this is serious, I don't think humans are worth +1 LA. They're very good, but they're very good for LA 0. +1 would render them really bad, especially when compared to other options these threads have given +1.

as OP said it was originally supposed to be posted on April Fools Day, so yeah.

That said: -0 for the human, because my schtick here is to underrate everything compared to general consensus apparently :P

[Debatra]

Yeah, it was a little early because we happened to get to where Humans would fall alphabetically in Libris Mortis before the actual first of the month. 100% joke, though I did have a small part of me wondering if anyone would genuinely argue in favor of -0 or +1. Anyway...

Mummified Creature

Acquired or Inherited: Acquired
Applied To: Any corporeal Giant, Humanoid, or Monstrous Humanoid
Type: Changed to Undead (Augmented [base creature type])
Size: Unchanged
Space/Reach: Unchanged
Hit Dice: Increase all current and future HD to D12
Speed: -10' to land speed, to a minimum of 10'
Ability Scores: Str +8, Dex +0, Con -, Int -4, Wis +4, Cha +4 - Net +12, one penalty
Armor Class: Natural Armor increases to 10, no change if it was already equal or higher.
Skills: Unchanged
CR: +3
WotC LA: +4
Our LA: +2

DR 5/- and Fire Vulnerability cap off a decent chassis. For reference, we gave standard Mummies +0 with 8 RHD. In addition to keeping its natural weapons, the Mummified Creature gains a slam attack if it didn't already have one. (1d8 damage for Medium creatures, keep old damage if it already had a slam.) All of the Mummy's natural weapons can inflict Mummy Rot, which works exactly the same way a standard Mummy's does. (Mummified Kobold anyone?) They also have the exact same Despair ability, forcing anything that sees them to make a Charisma-based Fortitude save vs 1d4 rounds of being paralyzed in fear. There's also the usual 24-hour immunity, but this one is regardless of success or failure on the initial save.

In short, like the Gravetouched Ghoul before them, they are a standard Mummy that keeps everything they had in life. They don't get as much Strength though, probably because WotC figured +14 was a bit much for a template they actually expected the PCs to use on occasion.

[remetagross]

My gut feeling tells me it's a no-brainer (with that -4 to Int, he) at +1. The Int penalty, movement reduction and fire vulnerability are somewhat annoying. But the other ability boosts are huge, Despair is a potent ability that does not require an action to be used (and has a range that's more or less unlimited), Mummy Rot has an incubation period of 1 minute so is actually somewhat relevant as a disease, the natural armor bonus is titanic, and the usual undead immunities are what they are.

I'd be hard-pressed to take it at LA +3, though. +8 Str goes only so far into enhancing one's damage potiential.

Hence, I vote LA+2.

[Thurbane]

Mummified Creature

• Type change to undead (giants, humanoids and monstrous humanoids only. HD become d12)
• Speed decreases by 10 ft.
• +10 natural armor (which sadly does not stack with an existing value).
• Slam attack.
• Despair: on sight, enemies must make a Will save or be paralyzed with feat 1d4 rounds. Works 1/day on any given creature.
• Mummy rot: supernatural disease with relatively quick onset. 1d6 Con & 1d6 Cha.
• DR 5/-.
• Vulnerability to fire.
• Str +8, Con --, Int -4, Wis +4, Cha +4: net +12, one non-ability. Hit to Int is frustrating.

I dunno about this one. I'm going to say LA +2 for now, but I could be swayed down. The template comes with inbuilt downsides: loss of speed, vulnerability to fire, and -4 to Int. For that you get solid natural armor, two special attacks (disease won't act quick enough for most combats), and DR 5/-. Could make a decent Cleric or Swordsage, for instance.

As a DM, have to say this is frustrating as CR +3, because I don't think it powers the base creature up enough to be worth this.

[Beni-Kujaku]

The stat boosts are pretty good, and the natural armor, with DR 5/- and d12 (plus the bonus from desecrate and corpsecrafter) gives it very good durability. I would see a martial cleric want this template without a doubt, even at +2. It doesn't have any incredible ability, though (Despair is very good, but a strong creature will probably resist and a horde of lower creatures will not be wiped out in 1d4 rounds), and Despair even becomes dangerous in social situations. +2 seems reasonable to me, maybe a weak +3.

[Troacctid]

I think this would be a little too strong for +2, if not for the drawbacks. With the penalties to speed and Int combined with the vulnerability to a common energy type, though, I think that's enough to satisfy my concerns. I'd give it a +2.

It doesn't get any turn resistance, does it?

[H_H_F_F]

You pay a real price for this template, but it's still way too good for +1 IMO. Despair is very strong, 10 NA and DR help mitigate the HP loss, and the ability boosts are very good.

I'm voting LA +2 for now, but I might even be willing to change my vote to +3 if I see any good arguements for that.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Human is a great benchmark for +0 LA. It's basically the gold standard.
If you're power-creeping monster races to the point where human feels like a -0, something has gone horribly wrong.

High +0, but yes.

More seriously, I'm not sure, does that count secret languages like druid? Or languages that should not be spoken with a human tongue, like Aboleth or Gnoll languages?

I believe "secret languages" are specifically excluded. They can learn languages that they can't speak (e.g. Aboleth), which lets them understand them (and, if applicable, write their written component)...unless, of course, the unspeakable language is also secret. It's not clear what languages (other than Druidic and, if it still exists, Thieves' Cant) qualify.


Moving onto Mummified Creatures, let me draw your attention to the image used for them:

Spoiler

Show

That's not the preserved remains of some great king. That's a flubbed necromancy experiment that was stuffed into the storage room, where it smashed apart crates full of toilet paper, plaster of Paris, and bottled water in search of...some kind of exotic woodwind instrument? What is that thing it's dragging? Is it supposed to be an ox skull or something?

In any case, mummified characters get a variety of boosts. A spot of damage reduction, d12 hit dice, some attribute boosts, an okay natural weapon, a disease that might have some marginal effect in unusually long fights. The big ones are a potentially double-digit increase to natural armor, +8 Strength, and the Despair ability. How useful are they?
Let's be honest, this is a bruiser class. Casters (wizards &c aside) like the Wisdom and Charisma bonuses, but that's small fry compared to the abilities which boost strength and tankiness (in a not-necessarily-futile effort to balance out losing a Constitution score). Potentially +10 to non-touch AC, +4 to melee attack and damage rolls, and a bit of DR are pretty significant buffs, and action-free paralysis is potentially awesome.
On the other hand, you're losing Intelligence (because some idiot assumed they could take brains out of mummies without any ill effect...though they were righter about that than I expected), you slow down (because some genius decided to try and restrain their dead leaders in case something like this happened), and worst of all, you're flammable. You don't have any defenses applicable to fireballs or dragons' breath, making fire vulnerability is extra dangerous.

A level adjustment of +2 seems reasonable. You're probably better at smashing trash mooks, especially if the party joins in on finishing off paralyzed enemies, but sufficiently literal firepower will burn you to a crisp faster than you can say "At least I don't have a Dex penalty".

[InvisibleBison]

What is that thing it's dragging? Is it supposed to be an ox skull or something?

I believe that is a human torso.

[NotInventedHere]

What is that thing it's dragging? Is it supposed to be an ox skull or something?

The perspective and colours are a bit off, but I think it's supposed to be the top half of a human(oid) corpse. It's holding one arm, and the brownish thing is hair on a head.

[AvatarVecna]

On a cleric or druid, this is maybe worth +2 at low levels and -0 at high levels, because being behind a full spell level is going to suck the higher level you get, and the benefits just don't keep up with what spells give you. But this is Str +8, NA +10, DR 5/- creature. Cleric or druid seems like a bad assumption for the most direct choice: Paladin.

Mummified Human, Paladin Of Tyranny 5. You've got +9 to-hit before taking point-bought Str into account, you have Int 4 but still get 2 skill points per level, which is Ride and either Handle Animal or Diplomacy. Your horse is smarter than you but who cares, it gives you speed to make up for the fact that your own speed sucks. You've got Deadly Touch for either delivering damage+disease or healing yourself (maybe healing your mount too?), you've got Wis +4 boosting your bad Will save, you've got Cha +4 boosting all your saves. The latter will protect against most sources of fire damage (AoEs), and if you're really worried about fire-wielding monsters, you can trade away your armor and a feat for Dragonscale Husk (DrM pg 12) for a scales-with-level untyped bonus to AC and ER 5 (everything but sonic).

"Wait, isn't it NA and thus wouldn't stack with the mummified?" AFAICT, it's not an armor bonus or an NA bonus. Granted, it doesn't stack with armor and has ACP and max Dex, but that doesn't change that it's an untyped bonus. YMMV on how your DM chooses to read it though.

This would also work well as a Crusader or Swordsage. Str boosting accuracy/damage, and either Wis or Cha getting solid class synergy. Swordsage gets evasion at 9th, which helps against most sources of fire damage, and Crusader has their delayed damage tanking ability. Going (Unarmed?) Swordsage also gives you an easy way to go into Shadow Sun Ninja, with their alternating at-will positive/negative energy touches for unlimited out-of-combat healing in your party.

On a cleric, +2 kills you in the high levels. On a paladin, swordsage, or crusader? This is a strong +2, maybe a weak +3, and it remains fairly useful well into the high levels.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I believe that is a human torso.

The perspective and colours are a bit off, but I think it's supposed to be the top half of a human(oid) corpse. It's holding one arm, and the brownish thing is hair on a head.

...alright, I see it now. Not sure why most of it is bone-white, why it has those holes in its back, or what it was doing in the storage closet someone stuffed that thing into, but yeah, it looks like a partial corpse.

[Efrate]

+2 It has a LOT going for it. Need fire res/evasion to be extra safe, but flat DR makes up huge for the HP. A ton of goodies for being a bit slower and dumb. Bunch of strength and NA, wis and cha that is respectable, and your despair. Which might be workable with dread witch? It is a fear effect correct?

[danielxcutter]

Note that if you already have a racial bonus to natural armor, this doesn't give as much as it would on, say, a human. Of course, a lot of monsters still don't have that much natural armor anyways, so you're probably getting a not insignificant bonus whatever you go for. Especially since you don't get a Dexterity penalty.

I wonder why you lose movement speed though. I know Dex and movement speed aren't tied together, but I wonder how you'd be considerably slower than in life while still being nimble enough to dodge things.