LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

[danielxcutter]

Ghosts convert their HD to d12s and have better abilities though.

[Troacctid]

Ghosts convert their HD to d12s and have better abilities though.

That's why I said "Ghost Lite."

[Thurbane]

Murk

• Medium Undead (Incorporeal)
• 3 RHD (d12hp, poor BAB, one good save, 4 skill points/"level")
• Fly 30 ft (good)
• Cha bonus as deflection to AC.
• Incorporeal touch 1d6 Wis.
• Confer negative level: one negative level if you reduce victim to 0 Wis. If the victim has 1HD, rises as a Murk under your control in 1d4 rounds.
• Darkvision 60 ft.
• Incorporeal traits.
• Inescapable craving: Wis and life force.
• Undead traits.
• Str --, Dex +4, Con --, Int -4, Wis +2, Cha +2: net +4, two non-abilities. The hit to Int hurts, as always.
• Small, but useful, racial skill list.

Vaguely humanoid and incorporeal in form. Specifically cannot speak intelligibly. Has a pretty powerful touch attack that can immobilize enemies. All the usual benefits and drawbacks of being incorporeal.

I think at 3RHD, I could agree with LA +0*. Not sure what the best progression might be. Maybe Cleric?

[H_H_F_F]

I'm leaning towards +0 as well. The touch attack is situational, but good. The ability modifiers are nice. Incorporeality is great. 3 RHD is not too bad, though it's still pretty bad. I could still see myself sway to -0.

As for natural progression - I'd lean towards swordsage, personally. Dex & Wis, a good reason to be in melee, sneak type with an int penalty (so no rogue, probably), some RHD...

[danielxcutter]

I assume this is barely +0 for the people who are voting for that? I won't deny that this can work, it's just that this still doesn't seem that strong.

[Troacctid]

Don't underestimate incorporeality. It's a very powerful effect.

[danielxcutter]

I get that, it's just... there are still plenty of other options, most of which have better toys to play with and/or don't have a sizable Int penalty.

[Troacctid]

I get that, it's just... there are still plenty of other options, most of which have better toys to play with and/or don't have a sizable Int penalty.

Such as what? 🤔

[danielxcutter]

Ghosts. Shadows. Wraiths. Allips.

Okay, I suppose aside from ghosts and allips they have more HD. Wait, are these things not weak to sunlight?

[Troacctid]

Ghosts. Shadows. Wraiths. Allips.

Okay, I suppose aside from ghosts and allips they have more HD. Wait, are these things not weak to sunlight?

No, they're not. Also, at +0 LA, murks would be significantly cheaper than any of those, so if anything, you're making the case for a +1, not a -0!

[H_H_F_F]

No, they're not. Also, at +0 LA, murks would be significantly cheaper than any of those, so if anything, you're making the case for a +1, not a -0!

Ghosts have been assigned +3, IIRC. RHD is superior to LA (unless buyoff is on the table), but I still wouldn't call it "sugnificantly" cheaper, especially given how much more ghosts have going on for them.

[Caelestion]

I get that, it's just... there are still plenty of other options, most of which have better toys to play with and/or don't have a sizable Int penalty.

Unless you're supporting that only the most powerful creature in any bracket should have that LA, I don't see why this is a problem.

LA +0*.

[liquidformat]

Ghosts. Shadows. Wraiths. Allips.

Okay, I suppose aside from ghosts and allips they have more HD. Wait, are these things not weak to sunlight?

I think Ghost Brute is probably the best comparison point to this; ghost Brute gets perfect maneuverability instead of Good, ghost Brute gets Bloodcurdling Howl corrupting touch and slavering Doom whereas Murk only has Incorporeal touch, Ghost Brute has rejuvenation Turn Resistance and skills bonuses to hide, listen, search, and spot, ghost Brute gives +8 Cha however pre-template cha must be <=8 whereas Murk gives a variety of bonuses and -4 int. The one thing Murk has going for it is its wis damaging touch attach can be used along side weapon attacks.

Over all we have established that +1 LA is roughly equal to 2 RHD and it seems to me that across the bored Ghost Brute comes out a head of Murk so I will go with -0* LA.

[Caelestion]

We have? When did we do that?

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, I don't think we've ever established that.

[Efrate]

+1* I could be swayed to +0*.

incorporealness plus a stat drain means you can kite most things if they can hurt you or more likely just stay there and wreck them since you only worry about holy water, manufactured magical weapons, and force effects. 50% vs. most magic is really good too. And I guess other incorporeal things.

Most published stuff cannot hurt you at all and you can full scout every area with relative safety unless you know someone has something that can hurt you. Explore the dungeon, find everything, report back.

Being incorporeal is amazing. By itself I can rarely see it not getting +1. 3 bad rhd suck but it is easily an overcomable obstacle over 20 levels.

[liquidformat]

Yeah, I don't think we've ever established that.

No one has expressly said +1 LA = 2 RHD; however, in talking about 1 to 3 RHD monsters the idea has been consistently expressed. I noticed this consistency during lock down, I had gone through and read every single one of these threads during that time...

I am also expressly talking about in the evaluation of creatures in the range of 1 to 3 RHD and the value of a +1 LA, not generally across the board equivalence.

[Remuko]

I think its on the border between -0 and +0. I tend to vote in favor of making things more playable, and thus always aim low (since making things playable is the point of the thread) so I'll vote -0*

[Beni-Kujaku]

3 RHD is a harsh price to pay, but incorporeal is just so valuable at low levels that I think it is still worth it. You are basically invincible up until ECL 4 to 5, and even then, you have very nice advantages, like attacking from below the ground with your ability draining, but it quickly becomes less and less relevant. You have disadvantages, but nothing that Ghost Touch won't get rid of. The problem is your damage output. You wouldn't be able to contribute to much in a party with Wis draining, and being a sorcerer would nullifies much of the incorporeal cheese, and losing 3 caster levels is harsh. So in the end, being a paladin/ranger/swordsage or other half-martial may be the best. And you still lose HP without Con in this case. Having incorporealness without anything else is not that good... +0* for me.

[Falontani]

It can. The extra damage is negative energy damage. You can also just use a weapon; who plays incorporeal creatures without taking Ghostly Grasp, right?

Really the main question here is, what is it worth to be an incorporeal undead, with all the benefits and drawbacks thereof? The inescapable craving is a non-issue (just eat some chickens) and the Wisdom damage is a gimmick. I personally think that it would be worth a solid +1 LA and +0 HD on its own. Murk is basically that, but with some ability modifiers and a Wisdom damage attack thrown in. It's like Ghost Lite. If you could get that for only +2 HD and +0 LA, I think it would be a slam dunk for non-casters of all stripes. It's a lot of immunities.

I think ECL 3 is more than fair for this monster. I put it at +0* LA.

just a small thing (that is potentially more of a big thing)
Sneak Attack damage is applied as any type of damage the attack deals. Wisdom damage gets bonus wisdom sneak attack damage.
The rule I believe Troacctid is speaking of is specifically for ability drain and energy drain, which is not damage, but gets a special mention that it deals negative energy damage.
The rules text appears on page 86 of Complete Arcane.

I reread it, and infuriatingly it specifies ability damage and energy drain. So a sneak attack that only does ability drain, afaict either does more ability drain, does negative energy damage, or just does... nothing extra. However it also specifies that this exception applies to spells. The Murk's wisdom damage is a supernatural ability which is not a spell. So it really is up in the air how this will work, however I would personally argue that Complete Arcane's text should read Ability Drain or Energy Drain, and not only apply to spells, but to all forms of attacks which qualify as a sneak attack; however this is not raw.

[Thurbane]

Not sure if I imagined this, but I though I recently became aware of a rule that incorporeal creatures cannot fully enter solid objects, and must remain adjacent to an open square?

[Debatra]

Not sure if I imagined this, but I though I recently became aware of a rule that incorporeal creatures cannot fully enter solid objects, and must remain adjacent to an open square?

This is true (third paragraph). Oddly, it's part of the incorporeal subtype but not the special ability rules. It's also on page 65 of the Rules Compendium (first paragraph under "Environment").

[Beni-Kujaku]

Not sure if I imagined this, but I though I recently became aware of a rule that incorporeal creatures cannot fully enter solid objects, and must remain adjacent to an open square?

Yeah, that doesn't make much sense. They can fully enter a solid object, but must have one part of their body slightly touching the wall? What, do they have to lean on thin air lest they fall? More seriously, the fluff I like most for that is the same as the one for Mirio Togata in My Hero Academia. When they are inside a wall, they can't see, hear, or sense anything, since the wall is opaque to most of those, and organs (whatever they are for a ghost) aren't meant to function in a solid environment. So if the incorporeal creature is fully inside a wall, it can't understand concepts of up or down, and cannot use any sense. Not only is that a terrifying experience, but when you move around by willing so, losing sense of directions can make you lose your ability to control your flight, and in a minute you find yourself 100 meters below the earth with no way to get out or even understand where you are. So you need a part of you, however small, that is outside and can still sense things, to guide you towards free air if necessary.

[danielxcutter]

just a small thing (that is potentially more of a big thing)
Sneak Attack damage is applied as any type of damage the attack deals. Wisdom damage gets bonus wisdom sneak attack damage.
The rule I believe Troacctid is speaking of is specifically for ability drain and energy drain, which is not damage, but gets a special mention that it deals negative energy damage.
The rules text appears on page 86 of Complete Arcane.

I reread it, and infuriatingly it specifies ability damage and energy drain. So a sneak attack that only does ability drain, afaict either does more ability drain, does negative energy damage, or just does... nothing extra. However it also specifies that this exception applies to spells. The Murk's wisdom damage is a supernatural ability which is not a spell. So it really is up in the air how this will work, however I would personally argue that Complete Arcane's text should read Ability Drain or Energy Drain, and not only apply to spells, but to all forms of attacks which qualify as a sneak attack; however this is not raw.

“Ability drain and energy drain” doesn’t mean it has to both to be used for sneak attack.

[Debatra]

“Ability drain and energy drain” doesn’t mean it has to both to be used for sneak attack.

I think she meant that as in "ability drain isn't listed".

[Falontani]

I think she meant that as in "ability drain isn't listed".

this was indeed my intent

[liquidformat]

Yeah, that doesn't make much sense. They can fully enter a solid object, but must have one part of their body slightly touching the wall? What, do they have to lean on thin air lest they fall? More seriously, the fluff I like most for that is the same as the one for Mirio Togata in My Hero Academia. When they are inside a wall, they can't see, hear, or sense anything, since the wall is opaque to most of those, and organs (whatever they are for a ghost) aren't meant to function in a solid environment. So if the incorporeal creature is fully inside a wall, it can't understand concepts of up or down, and cannot use any sense. Not only is that a terrifying experience, but when you move around by willing so, losing sense of directions can make you lose your ability to control your flight, and in a minute you find yourself 100 meters below the earth with no way to get out or even understand where you are. So you need a part of you, however small, that is outside and can still sense things, to guide you towards free air if necessary.

That is a really cool concept for manifested incorporeal, I really need to watch My Hero Academia people keep bringing up cool stuff like this about it.

[Tzardok]

Did I vote already? No? Well, I'm going with +0*.

[Debatra]

-0: InvisibleBison, liquidformat, Remuko,
+0: Troacctid, Thurbane, Caelestion, Beni-Kujaku, Tzardok
+1: Efrate,
leaning towards +0, could be swayed to -0, hasn't officially voted for either yet: H_H_F_F

While still somewhat close, that leaning vote wouldn't currently change it regardless of his final decision. The Murk gets +0*. Necromentals are next.

[Debatra]

Necromental

A Large Earth Necromental

Acquired or Inherited: Acquired
Applied To: Any Elemental
Size & Type: Size unchanged, Type becomes Undead (Augmented), keeps any subtypes except alignment
Space/Reach: Unchanged
Hit Dice: Drop any HD from class levels (to a minimum of 1), raise remaining to D12.
Speed: Unchanged
Ability Scores: Str +0, Dex +0, Con -, Int becomes 1, Wis becomes 10, Cha becomes 1
Armor Class: +2 Natural
Skills: N/A
CR: +1
WotC LA: -
Our LA: +0* (Uncapped Spawn Ability)

So this thing loses any HD gained from class levels, but does not explicitly lose the levels themselves. The RAI is probably that they do though, especially since Advancement changes to - for base creatures that advance by class. Most of WotC's beasties are just made without caring about PCs playing them, but this one almost seems to have been specifically made to not be played. Anyway...

Any elemental killed by its Energy Drain rises as a Necromental after 1d4 days. No mention of control. Asterisk.

Other than that, it's Energy Drain is fairly unimpressive, dealing a negative level to any living creature hit by its natural weapons. That on its own is fine; but put the blender builds away, because this ability can only be used once per round no matter how many times it hits with a natural weapon. For each negative level bestowed, it gains five temporary HP that last up to an hour. Ten if the attack was a crit.

They gain Fast Healing 3 as long as they have at least one HP left and are within five feet of "some form of its element". Presumably their own body doesn't count. This will of course vary in effectiveness depending on what kind of Elemental they were in life. Air is everywhere (it doesn't say they need open sky above or anything like that), amount isn't mentioned so it could carry a waterskin, metal is specifically listed as acceptable for Earth so most armor or weapons will do... Does a Flaming sword count? It doesn't say non-magical.

For a cherry on top, they get Great Fortitude. Hey, bonus feats are bonus feats.