LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

[Troacctid]

Sounds like a +1 to me. Fast healing, energy drain, undead immunities, all clearly too strong for +0, but losing your Int and Cha is too much of a drawback for it to be worth +2.

[Thurbane]

Not sure how to rate a template that sets your Int to a non-playable score. The rules say 3 minimum to be a PC - and since you have an Int of 1, you aren't eligible for Awaken Undead.

Unless you throw another template on there, or get a Headband of Intellect, you technically cannot be a PC.

[danielxcutter]

I should note that aside from mind-affecting abilities there is very little the template actually grants. In fact it might actually harm more than help, since you lose your Con bonus(all four MM elementals have Con bonuses aside from Small fire and air ones) and you completely tank your mental stats without any way to recover them(even Awaken Undead won't work). I suppose being disqualified for Rapidstrike doesn't matter since only Large and larger elementals(which all got -0) get two slams, though.

[Troacctid]

I should note that aside from mind-affecting abilities there is very little the template actually grants.

What are fast healing, energy drain, and undead immunities? Chopped liver? 🤔

Assuming that a template will only be applied to the obvious Monster Manual choices is how we get things like Primordial Giant at +0 LA. It may be ostensibly fair when you assume the base monster is going to be terrible enough already that you don't need to pile on more LA—but when you start hunting for the cheapest PC-legal applications, it suddenly starts looking a lot stronger. Even if there aren't any good PC races for it yet, it's important to take future-proofing into account as well.

[danielxcutter]

Oh sorry I meant to say that the type change gives you little.

Also what other options are there besides the MM classics(and that we've covered)? Storm Elementals are MMIII I think? Mephits are Outsiders so they don't work.

BTW, I think this was mentioned earlier but it's weird that they made separate "former elemental undead" creatures and then put this in the same book. I wonder what's even the difference in terms of fluff.

What are these things equivalent to in terms of "humanoid" undead? Wights?

[H_H_F_F]

Oh man, I forgot to vote last round? I would've settled on +0*, I thought I did at some point.

You know, this one is confusing. It's an acquired template, but one you really ahouldn't acquire after character creation (unless you're doing some weird TO stuff.) That is, unless I misunderstand the word "any" here.

It doesn't really give much, and the very limited entry makes it harder to capitalize on. It's decent, so it feels strange to vote +0* here, but I'm just not sure it's worth +1* - elementals often have excellent Con, and have a good immunity list on their own. You're sacrificing a lot here.

I'm voting +0* for now, even though that's always a concerning score to give a template.

[Beni-Kujaku]

This template... really doesn't give much, even if you go through everything that WotC put in place to prevent any PC from playing it. Except fire, almost no elemental will really use their slam attack, so the negative level is pretty meh. Fast healing is always nice, and undead immunities are good, but I don't think they offset getting -4 to -10 (depending on the elemental) in Int and -10 Cha on a creature that already is pretty skill-starved, as well as losing Constitution (that most elementals have pretty high, and PCs have even higher.). LA +0* in my opinion, maaaaaybe +1 for a Small Air elemental, but even that I'm not sure.

What are fast healing, energy drain, and undead immunities? Chopped liver? 🤔

Assuming that a template will only be applied to the obvious Monster Manual choices is how we get things like Primordial Giant at +0 LA. It may be ostensibly fair when you assume the base monster is going to be terrible enough already that you don't need to pile on more LA—but when you start hunting for the cheapest PC-legal applications, it suddenly starts looking a lot stronger. Even if there aren't any good PC races for it yet, it's important to take future-proofing into account as well.

There is little future proofing to be made when the game hasn't had any published material for more than a decade. However, that is actually a good point. For example this template would definitely be +1 for something like a fire bat (MM2). And if we go by the highest LA to be sure nothing is overpowered, then +1* is probably needed. But the likes of the bat are very rare, and not that good anyway, so I don't think it is really necessary.

[Troacctid]

Oh sorry I meant to say that the type change gives you little.

Immunity to mind-affecting, immunity to nonlethal damage, immunity to death effects, immunity to ability drain, immunity to energy drain, immunity to physical ability damage. That's something like a 200k gp value or more, if we were to put it in an item. And that doesn't even include the immunity to Fortitude saves, which is a whole 'nother ball game.

Mental ability scores are already dump stats for a lot of martials. I can't imagine giving something like mineral warrior a +0, for example, even if you dialed the mental penalties way up.

[H_H_F_F]

Immunity to mind-affecting, immunity to nonlethal damage, immunity to death effects, immunity to ability drain, immunity to energy drain, immunity to physical ability damage. That's something like a 200k gp value or more, if we were to put it in an item. And that doesn't even include the immunity to Fortitude saves, which is a whole 'nother ball game.

Mental ability scores are already dump stats for a lot of martials. I can't imagine giving something like mineral warrior a +0, for example, even if you dialed the mental penalties way up.

Mineral Warrior doesn't kill your Con.

[Thurbane]

For now, I'm going to buck the trend and give this LA -0* (TBH not sure it needs an asterisk; process takes 1d4 days, is limited to elementals only, and no mention is made that you have any control over them).

The set Int score is very problematic (the set Wis and Cha are also annoying); on top of that, it is only available to a relatively small group of base creatures, almost all of which will be hurt by the lack of Con, and already had a sizeable number of immunities before becoming undead.

Fast healing and energy drain are nice, but I'd rather take a level in Soul Eater, and find a different source of fast healing.

[Troacctid]

Mineral Warrior doesn't kill your Con.

Small and medium elementals aren't exactly swimming in Con bonuses, if you're looking at the MM ones. Boosting hit dice two sizes (and getting +♾️ to Fortitude) more than makes up for it. It's a non-issue. Plus, setting scores to specific values instead of penalizing them means you get to dump them in your point buy—you can sink your entire point allotment into Str and Dex and suffer no consequences whatsoever for putting zero points in everything else.

The question isn't "Which elementals would be taking this," it's "Which elementals wouldn't be taking this?" Any elemental monster that's even remotely playable is going to be significantly improved by this template—it's not like you were going to play your invisible stalker as a spellcaster in the first place.

The set Int score is very problematic (the set Wis and Cha are also annoying); on top of that, it is only available to a relatively small group of base creatures, almost all of which will be hurt by the lack of Con, and already had a sizeable number of immunities before becoming undead.

Elemental immunities are nothing compared to undead immunities. Stun and crit immunity? That's pocket change! It's like saying dracoliches don't gain much for becoming undead because they were already immune to sleep and paralysis. Come on now.

Hurt by the lack of Con? See above. You have maybe +2 or +4 Con, possibly even +0, and you're boosting your HD two sizes and gaining fast healing. That's a either a wash or an upside.

This template is not limited to air, earth, fire, and water elementals. It can be used for any elemental.

Fast healing and energy drain are nice, but I'd rather take a level in Soul Eater, and find a different source of fast healing.

If you think it's comparable to a class level, then I take it you agree that it belongs at +1?

[Lilapop]

Pointbuying and ice-dwelling your way to 3 charisma on a race that also includes famous sorcerers and paladins is one thing, but on this thing you're a DC ~15 know(relig) away from getting hit by ray of stupidity, or whatever other int/cha damage the enemy knowledge boy has up his sleeve.

Except fire, almost no elemental will really use their slam attack, so the negative level is pretty meh.

Slam doesn't necessarily have to be a punch. You would just THF+kick, to get an additional attack that gains all of your power attack or w/e bonus damage, and now that attack also has a nice rider effect.


Bottom line though, I'd consider this a positive trade. Not a no-brainer, as you'll have to look closer at what defenses you do actually need, but good enough to be a +1 (abstaining on the asterisk matter).

[H_H_F_F]

The medium elementals from the MM have either a +4 or a +6 to Con. It's the best score of the water elemental, 2nd best of the rest. If you go larger, it gets more prenounced. If you're going for the "straight melee beast" you seem to be implying is the expected route for elementals (after all, you wouldn't go Pally/ranger/swordsage/whatever with those scores) than small size isn't really the obvious pick for you.

I don't deny it's pretty good, but I'm not sure it's worth +1.

[Troacctid]

Pointbuying and ice-dwelling your way to 3 charisma on a race that also includes famous sorcerers and paladins is one thing, but on this thing you're a DC ~15 know(relig) away from getting hit by ray of stupidity, or whatever other int/cha damage the enemy knowledge boy has up his sleeve.

You're immune to stupidity rays. Most spells and powers that attack Int or Cha are either mind-affecting or poison.

The medium elementals from the MM have either a +4 or a +6 to Con. It's the best score of the water elemental, 2nd best of the rest. If you go larger, it gets more prenounced. If you're going for the "straight melee beast" you seem to be implying is the expected route for elementals (after all, you wouldn't go Pally/ranger/swordsage/whatever with those scores) than small size isn't really the obvious pick for you.

I don't deny it's pretty good, but I'm not sure it's worth +1.

Nah, small is still better because of fewer RHD, and the small'uns have +0 or +2 Con.

[danielxcutter]

Small and medium elementals aren't exactly swimming in Con bonuses, if you're looking at the MM ones. Boosting hit dice two sizes (and getting +♾️ to Fortitude) more than makes up for it. It's a non-issue. Plus, setting scores to specific values instead of penalizing them means you get to dump them in your point buy—you can sink your entire point allotment into Str and Dex and suffer no consequences whatsoever for putting zero points in everything else.

The question isn't "Which elementals would be taking this," it's "Which elementals wouldn't be taking this?" Any elemental monster that's even remotely playable is going to be significantly improved by this template—it's not like you were going to play your invisible stalker as a spellcaster in the first place.

Elemental immunities are nothing compared to undead immunities. Stun and crit immunity? That's pocket change! It's like saying dracoliches don't gain much for becoming undead because they were already immune to sleep and paralysis. Come on now.

Stun and particularly crit immunity are vastly more powerful than sleep and paralysis immunity. Half the reason people take things like Penetrating Strike or Swift Hunter is to get around crit immunity ruining their builds.

Oh and I'd personally say Dracolich is a pretty bad template because the amount of hit points most dragons lose are astronomical. At least Vampiric Dragon gives some bonus hit points.

Hurt by the lack of Con? See above. You have maybe +2 or +4 Con, possibly even +0, and you're boosting your HD two sizes and gaining fast healing. That's a either a wash or an upside.

Except this template doesn't convert class HD to d12s and you're not getting bonus hit points from Constitution either(which a normal elemental would be able to boost further with items, stat increases, and even things like Bear's Endurance). Even without an LA your hit points aren't any better than a Fighter with 12 Constitution(and honestly, who only has 12 Constitution as a Fighter?) at low levels. At high levels even the Wizard can easily have higher hit points than you.

I should note that while you have a natural armor bonus, you have no DR whatsoever. And Fast Healing 3 after the early game isn't even pocket change, it's barely lint.

This template is not limited to air, earth, fire, and water elementals. It can be used for any elemental.

What Thurbane means is that elemental is still a considerably smaller group than, you know, undead or outsider or even aberration I think.

If you think it's comparable to a class level, then I take it you agree that it belongs at +1?

A level of Monk gets you Improved Unarmed Strike and you can do that with Fighter too. I wouldn't take a level of Monk in most builds instead of a Fighter dip, though.

[H_H_F_F]

Nah, small is still better because of fewer RHD, and the small'uns have +0 or +2 Con.

You specifically brought up "small or medium", so I replied that medium ones, are, in fact, swimming in Con. A conservativelt low point buy score for a melee on Con would 14. That's 18/20 Con on a medium sized elemental, with very low investment.

Necropolitan is generally considered a terrible pick for melee types, even though it increases all HD to D12, unlike this one. If you're going small, you'll have two D12 HDs and the rest will be normal class levels with Con -. Nothing to do except melee, on a small base with Okayish Strength.

Can you make it work? Sure. It'd even be pretty good on certain builds, it's not terrible. But "not terrible" and "pretty good on certain builds, if you put in some effort" are the staples of +0.

Usually, if you're going small elemental, don't go straight melee - utilize your elemental nature to have some tricks up your sleeve. If you're big, lean into your strengths. This is never an "obvious no brainer pick", so I'm comfortable with +0.

[Caelestion]

How can a template possibly be worth -0? That's bonkers. That would also lend itself to blatant min-maxing.

[Beni-Kujaku]

How can a template possibly be worth -0? That's bonkers. That would also lend itself to blatant min-maxing.

A template can be -0 if it makes you lose more than it gives you in most builds, and hence is probably not worth taking, even at LA +0 (we of course disregard any kind of negative LA in this thread). Here, the build gives you a type change, and a lot of cool immunities, but sets all your mental stats. Plus, this is an acquired template, which means you don't just have -10 int before you roll, you have 1 Int, period, and hence very probably never get more than 1 skill point per level for your whole career. You also can't use spells of any kind, since you have no mental stats above 10. And finally, you do not have a Con score, which doesn't translate well for a martial. So, yeah, you lose quite a bit, whatever class you want to go in. If it didn't have undead immunities, it would definitely, positively be -0. With undead immunities... Well, you can see there are arguments.

[H_H_F_F]

(we of course disregard any kind of negative LA in this thread).

Tha natural continuation of that sentence would have been:

(...If anyone's interested in that, you can go to the negative LA assignment thread in my signature)

But if you're too shy to self plug, I'll do it for you.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Tha natural continuation of that sentence would have been:



But if you're too shy to self plug, I'll do it for you.

And I'm grateful for you doing it . Come and discuss about bad monsters!

[danielxcutter]

How can a template possibly be worth -0? That's bonkers. That would also lend itself to blatant min-maxing.

Pretty sure zombie is a template.

[Thurbane]

If you think it's comparable to a class level, then I take it you agree that it belongs at +1?

Not really, because a level in Soul Eater is all positives, increases BAB, saves & HD/hp, and gives skills, as well as energy drain.

Necromental comes with too many downsides, IMHO, to be equivalent to a class level.

If it was straight up "template that gives energy drain and fast healing 3; nothing more, nothing less", then yes, I would definitely be behind LA +1.

What Thurbane means is that elemental is still a considerably smaller group than, you know, undead or outsider or even aberration I think.

Indeed; creatures of the Elemental type aren't as numerous as a lot of other types - playable (or play-worthy) specimens even less so.

How can a template possibly be worth -0? That's bonkers. That would also lend itself to blatant min-maxing.

Pretty sure zombie is a template.

We have rated a few templates that came in at -0: Zombie, Skeleton*, Topiary Guardian and Yellow Musk Zombies, according to the index.

[danielxcutter]

Not really, because a level in Soul Eater is all positives, increases BAB, saves & HD/hp, and gives skills, as well as energy drain.

Necromental comes with too many downsides, IMHO, to be equivalent to a class level.

If it was straight up "template that gives energy drain and fast healing 3; nothing more, nothing less", then yes, I would definitely be behind LA +1.

Also extra levels in Soul Eater give more bonuses - it's probably not worth it on most builds, but I can see a couple more levels working for encounters with not much gear.

Amusingly, the Soul Power capstone doubles the uses of Soul Blast, but if you don't have any other per-day abilities that's it. It doesn't really matter for this monster, I just found it funny.

Indeed; creatures of the Elemental type aren't as numerous as a lot of other types - playable (or play-worthy) specimens even less so.

Did a quick search - there's about 120 elemental type monsters in the entire game, including each size of elemental as a separate version, and 220 aberrations for example(not including magazines but including web articles). Now, I'm not sure if my sources are comprehensive, so if someone has a better searcher then do tell, but I suspect that the gap's even bigger for other monster types.

I mean that doesn't inherently mean that this ruins it for elemental characters, but the actual point was that elemental isn't a particularly common type.

We have rated a few templates that came in at -0: Zombie, Skeleton*, Topiary Guardian and Yellow Musk Zombies, according to the index.

Yeah, those.

[Mystic Muse]

-0 from me. The kind of characters on which this template would be anywhere close to desirable seem few and far between to me.

[liquidformat]

There is little future proofing to be made when the game hasn't had any published material for more than a decade. However, that is actually a good point. For example this template would definitely be +1 for something like a fire bat (MM2). And if we go by the highest LA to be sure nothing is overpowered, then +1* is probably needed. But the likes of the bat are very rare, and not that good anyway, so I don't think it is really necessary.

How is Fire Bat a +1 with this template, it looks like s -0 creature to begin with and NECROMENTAL doesn't appear to do much to move if away from that?

What are fast healing, energy drain, and undead immunities? Chopped liver? 🤔

Assuming that a template will only be applied to the obvious Monster Manual choices is how we get things like Primordial Giant at +0 LA. It may be ostensibly fair when you assume the base monster is going to be terrible enough already that you don't need to pile on more LA—but when you start hunting for the cheapest PC-legal applications, it suddenly starts looking a lot stronger. Even if there aren't any good PC races for it yet, it's important to take future-proofing into account as well.

Small and medium elementals aren't exactly swimming in Con bonuses, if you're looking at the MM ones. Boosting hit dice two sizes (and getting +♾️ to Fortitude) more than makes up for it. It's a non-issue. Plus, setting scores to specific values instead of penalizing them means you get to dump them in your point buy—you can sink your entire point allotment into Str and Dex and suffer no consequences whatsoever for putting zero points in everything else.

This is an awful template and I can't think of a time I would willingly take it. you loose your Con score and explicitly don't get d12s for anything but your base RHD "Drop any Hit Dice from class levels (to a minimum of 1), and raise remaining Hit Dice to d12s" that means even if I want to grab more RHD they aren't D12s. That means your HP will always be your weak point and since everyone says this thing is clearly a beat stick since it tanks mental stats this issue is compounded.
Your Int and Cha are set to 1 and your Wis is set to 10, that expressly makes you unplayable without adding another template which must be an acquired template. Since the traditional go to templates for int score increases like Phrenic and celestial/fiendish aren't acquired they are of no use in fixing this problem also it doesn't qualify for celestial or fiendish anyways. In fact I am not seeing any templates that would work.

I don't think we need an asterisk for its Create Spawn ability since it is elementals only (elemental type is pretty rare), it takes 1d4 days, and you gain no control. I think this is similar to ghouls in that it just doesn't have enough to actually be a problem.

On the other hand I think Int being set to 1 might actually be worth an asterisk since it makes you unplayable and as of right now I see no template or awakening spell that could be used to make you playable.

With all that said I am going with -0 LA or -0* LA asterisk for removing Int score set to 1.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

At its best, the template is good, but that requires a whole lot of building around. I'm torn between -0 and +0, but I'll go with +0 for now. Don't think it needs an *, but could be convinced.

EDIT: Actually, it might need a * for the 1 Intelligence, making it illegal for a player race without DM permission or additional resources.

[danielxcutter]

Oh! Undead use Charisma for Concentration checks, so that means you can't really use a lot of Diamond Mind strikes.

Honestly, what can you do with this? Barbarian oh wait you have no Constitution score and apparently according to Ghostwalk undead use their Charisma for duration instead? Fighter? As if it's any better here than on something else. Monk - HAHAHA yeah no.

[liquidformat]

Oh! Undead use Charisma for Concentration checks, so that means you can't really use a lot of Diamond Mind strikes.

Honestly, what can you do with this? Barbarian oh wait you have no Constitution score and apparently according to Ghostwalk undead use their Charisma for duration instead? Fighter? As if it's any better here than on something else. Monk - HAHAHA yeah no.

Anything that requires skill points or mental abilities are out, so the initiator classes and a lot of the maneuvers/stances are not going to be worth while. Similarly rogue isn't great since you have no skill points, as stated Barbarian sucks because you have 1 cha. That leaves us with classes like fighter and monk; and while they both suck you are going to want to dip monk if you want to do things like trip because there is no other way you are getting access to those feats.

All and all this is a terrible template that pigeonholes you into a couple terrible classes just because it doesn't work with anything else. I don't think a lot of people are understanding just how horrible having your Int and Cha set to 1 is, even having your Wis set to 10 is quite bad. Sure if you are running Point Buy you can have 18 Str and Dex but having Int and Cha set to 1 is worse than if they were -.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I mean, there's no reason you couldn't go Crusader, Warblade, or Swordsage. You'd miss out on a couple of the class features, and you'd want to avoid Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw, but that still leaves you 7 disciplines to work with. One attack per round works fine with the level drain, and immunities and fast healing will be good. Is that worth +0? Maybe. Losing Int really sucks, but if you go with a Small [element] Elemental, it's potentially as small as a -2 penalty with point buy (8 - 6, min 3, set to 1). Just don't pick the maneuvers that require skills, and I think you're at least competitive with an equal level initiator of the same race.

I noted this in my first post, but forced Int 1 may be worth an asterisk, as it's illegal for a player character. Asterisking that would solve many of the templates problems, and potentially bump it up to a +1.

[danielxcutter]

Aren't there other maneuvers that use skill rolls besides Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw? Not many, I think, but most disciplines have at least one IIRC.