LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

[Debatra]

Traditionally, we try to change as little as possible aside from asterisks. Besides which, we've already had things with costs beyond LA. The cost of creating a Lich's Phylactery, for instance.

We will be voting as if the XP/level costs were unchanged.

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, easy +0 then. You get some very nice defenses and don't get saddled with terrible HD, but even if the gold cost is manageable at higher levels the XP and level hit is a bit less so.

[Bavarian itP]

Traditionally, we try to change as little as possible aside from asterisks. Besides which, we've already had things with costs beyond LA. The cost of creating a Lich's Phylactery, for instance.

The rating for the lich assumes to get rid of the cost somehow, though.

[Blue Jay]

The rating for the lich assumes to get rid of the cost somehow, though.

The same discussion definitely happened for the lich, but it didn't really come to a resolution. I think Inevitability's vote was definitely weighting the LA for the existence of cost reducers, and most posters made their votes contingent on whether or not the costs were enforced per RAW. Ultimately, I think most of the people who voted at that time would not agree that the lich template is worth LA +2 and the full gold cost.

Do people think it would be worth re-evaluating the lich template in light of our discussion here of the necropolitan template? We've re-evaluated monsters before, so maybe it would be worth re-visiting.

I also kind of wonder if it would be a good idea to offer two alternative LAs in situations like this. Obviously, we should stick to RAW; but in cases like this, it wouldn't be too difficult to tack on a rating for a popular house rule (like waiving the non-LA costs of templates), because the house rule has already dominated our discussion and impacted our votes, anyway. We wouldn't even necessarily have to put the alternative LA in the archive: Debatra could just tally it in his wrap-up post for the monster, or something like that.

[Falontani]

If we do redo lich we should do it at the same time as the alternate lich templates in this book, such as archlich and fiendlich

[PoeticallyPsyco]

If we do redo lich we should do it at the same time as the alternate lich templates in this book, such as archlich and fiendlich

I can get behind that.

[Bavarian itP]

Ultimately, I think most of the people who voted at that time would not agree that the lich template is worth LA +2 and the full gold cost.

Again: According to the final rating, the lich template is not worth +2 and the full gold cost. I was just pointing out that the lich is not suited as precedence for "we should change as little as possible".

[danielxcutter]

I wonder whether the inexorably high price of crafting the phylactery was yet another of WotC’s “Well yes, but actually no” minotaur crap things about monstrous PCs.

[AvatarVecna]

I'm pretty sure that Avatar_Vecna and Thurbane are both proposing the latter. Either way, there's got to be something noted about the template however we go, because the old way needs you to dock a level and 1k XP as well as 3k gold, and the new way sets you at +1 with no actual way to effectively buy that off(as we do not consider those rules here).

I'm nto 100% proposing the latter as much as that...I kinda assumed that the "pay XP instead of LA" would be getting replaced with just LA, because this entire project is about getting rid of the existing costs and reevaluating what various things are actually worth. Tossing out the XP/GP costs makes similar sense to me as tossing out the existing LA, but I can see that's not a universal sentiment. In any case, however the chair ends up viewing it, I've got my vote locked in: LA +0 if it's in addition to the XP/GP, LA +1 if it's in place of them.

Incidentally, how long would it take for "XP is a river" to catch you up to the rest of the players, and how much of an impact would it have then? I'm pretty sure being undead never becomes useless, but at high level the benefits can often be replicated with gold, magic, and/or class features while the costs are a bit harder to mitigate. There's a reason a lot of high-level undead either have Unholy Toughness or ridiculous HD bloat.

Spoiler: Details

Show

Necropolitan is typically taken at lvl 3, since this is when it costs you the least XP - it sets you back half a level, and then -1000 XP, putting you at exactly 1000 XP and exactly at lvl 2, while the other three party members are at exactly 3000 XP and exactly at lvl 3.

The party faces 9 CR 3 encounters, each party member getting 225 XP per encounter. At this point, the necropolitan is at 3025 XP (3rd lvl) and the others are at 5025 XP (3rd lvl).

The party faces 5 CR 3 encounters, each party member getting 225 XP per encounter. At this point, the necropolitan is at 4150 XP (3rd lvl) and the others are at 6150 XP (4th lvl).

The party faces 6 CR 4 encounters, with necro getting 338 XP per, and the others getting 300 XP per. At this point, the necropolitan is at 6178 XP (4th lvl), and the others are at 7950 (4th lvl).

The party faces 7 CR 4 encounters, with everyone getting 300 XP per. At this point, the necro is at 8278 XP (4th lvl) and the others are at 10050 XP (5th lvl).

The party faces 5 CR 5 encounters, with necro getting 400 XP per, and the others getting 375 XP per. At this point, the necro is at 10278 XP (5th lvl) and the others are at 11925 XP (5th).

The party faces 9 CR 5 encounters, with everyone getting 375 XP per. At this point, the necro is at 13653 XP (5th lvl) and the others are at 15300 (6th lvl).

The party faces 3 CR 6 encounters, with necro getting 563 XP per and the others getting 450 XP per. At this point, the necro is at 15342 XP (6th lvl) and the others are at 16650 XP (6th lvl).

The party faces 10 CR 6 encounters, with everyone getting 450 XP per. At this point, the necro is at 19842 XP (6th lvl) and the others are at 21150 XP (7th lvl).

The party faces 2 CR 7 encounters, with necro getting 675 XP per and the others getting 525 XP per. At this point, the necro is at 21192 XP (7th lvl) and the others are at 22200 XP (7th lvl).

The party faces 12 CR 7 encounters, with everyone getting 525 XP per. At this point, the necro is at 27492 XP (7th lvl) and the others are at 28500 XP (8th lvl).

The party faces 1 CR 8 encounter, with necro getting 788 XP and the others getting 600 XP. At this point, the necro is at 28280 XP (8th lvl) and the others are at 29100 XP (8th lvl).

The party faces 12 CR 8 encounters, with everyone getting 600 XP per. At this point, the necro is at 35480 XP (8th lvl) and the others are at 36300 (9th lvl).

The party faces 1 CR 9 encounter, with necro getting 900 XP and the others getting 675 XP. At this point, the necro is at 36180 XP (9th lvl) and the others are at 36975 XP (9th lvl).

The party faces 12 CR 9 encounters, with everyone getting 675 XP per. At this point, the necro is at 44280 XP (9th lvl) and the others are at 45075 XP (10th lvl).

The party faces 1 CR 10 encounter, with necro getting 1013 XP and the others getting 750 XP. At this point, the necro is at 45293 XP (10th lvl) and the others are at 45825 XP (10th lvl).

The party faces 13 CR 10 encounters, with everyone getting 750 XP per. At this point, the necro is at 55043 XP (11th lvl) and the others are at 55575 XP (11th lvl).

The party faces 13 CR 11 encounters, with everyone getting 825 XP per. At this point, the necro is at 65768 XP (11th lvl) and the others are at 66300 XP (12th lvl).

The party faces 1 CR 12 encounter, with necro getting 1238 XP and the others getting 900 XP. At this point, the necro is at 67006 XP (12th lvl) and the others are at 67200 XP (12th lvl).

The party faces 12 CR 12 encounters, with everyone getting 900 XP. At this point, the necro is at 77806 XP (12th lvl) and the others are at 78000 XP (13th lvl).

The party faces 1 CR 13 encounter, with necro getting 1350 XP and the others getting 975 XP. At this point, the necro is at 79156 XP (13th lvl) and the others are at 78975 XP (13th lvl).

From one perspective, you "catch up" before your allies even reach 4th lvl. From another perspective, you don't fully catch up until you're one encounter into 13th lvl.

From perhaps the fairest perspective, it takes you 135 encounters to fully catch up, but also you spend 105 of those encounters at the same level as your allies, except you also have undead benefits on top of that.

EDIT: Obviously the exact details are going to depend on exactly what mix of encounters you deal with. I'm not sure if you'd catch up quicker or slower if there was a proper encounter mix, nor am I sure if you'd catch up quicker or slower if you took Necropolitan at 4th lvl instead of 3rd (since taking it at 3rd lvl, lvl 2 and 3 characters get the same XP reward from encounters, whereas 3rd and 4th lvl characters get different rewards).

[Beni-Kujaku]

In the original thread, there was a very short discussion about a lich selling their phylactery to another one. Would that even work? If you have the 120,000 gp phylactery being the unholy artifact of a Nerull-worshipping company, would it be possible to have all of them link their souls to the same object, hence cutting the costs tremendously and creating a pretty good campaign seting?

[danielxcutter]

Lich phylacteries can't be constructed from items that are already magic. Pretty sure the very act of making something into a phylactery makes it a magic item so...

[Beni-Kujaku]

Lich phylacteries can't be constructed from items that are already magic. Pretty sure the very act of making something into a phylactery makes it a magic item so...

Damn! Foiled by logic and game balance again! (won't prevent me from doing exactly that in my next campaign, though, because I still find it very cool. It will just have to be a custom artifact instead of a RAW phylactery)

[liquidformat]

The same discussion definitely happened for the lich, but it didn't really come to a resolution. I think Inevitability's vote was definitely weighting the LA for the existence of cost reducers, and most posters made their votes contingent on whether or not the costs were enforced per RAW. Ultimately, I think most of the people who voted at that time would not agree that the lich template is worth LA +2 and the full gold cost.

Do people think it would be worth re-evaluating the lich template in light of our discussion here of the necropolitan template? We've re-evaluated monsters before, so maybe it would be worth re-visiting.

I also kind of wonder if it would be a good idea to offer two alternative LAs in situations like this. Obviously, we should stick to RAW; but in cases like this, it wouldn't be too difficult to tack on a rating for a popular house rule (like waiving the non-LA costs of templates), because the house rule has already dominated our discussion and impacted our votes, anyway. We wouldn't even necessarily have to put the alternative LA in the archive: Debatra could just tally it in his wrap-up post for the monster, or something like that.

Well to be fair there is already RAW support that Lich and Dry Lich are LA +0. For Lich a level 20 Dread Necromancer gets the Template for free and for Dry Lich at level 13 for Cleric 3/Walker in the Waste 10 with the Sand Domain.

[Caelestion]

A 20th-level character getting a +2 template for "free" is hardly game-breaking, even by WotC's standards, particularly when you factor in all their other similar class features.

[Debatra]

+1 - remetagross,
+0 - Thurbane, Tzardok, liquidformat, Elkad, Troacctid, Remuko, AvatarVecna, H_H_F_F, Blue Jay, danielxcutter

Caelestion's +1 vote wasn't counted above because he specified that was for if the level/xp cost was removed, and then didn't vote again after it was clarified that wouldn't the case. Either way, we have a clear winner. Plague Blight in a bit.

If we do redo lich we should do it at the same time as the alternate lich templates in this book, such as archlich and fiendlich

Do remind me about those variants later. I'm likely to forget them.

[Debatra]

Plague Blight

Size & Type: Medium Undead (Evil)
Face/Reach: 5'/5' (Errata'd to Space/Reach )
HD: 6
Speed: 30'
Ability Scores: Str +8, Dex +10, Con -, Int +4, Wis +4, Cha +4 - Net +30, no penalties
Natural Armor: 8
Natural Weapons: One Primary Slam (1d6, +2 vs Good-aligned foes, plus Gangrenous Touch)
Skill List: Balance, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Tumble
Body Shape: Humanoid
Speech (Languages): Yes (Common, plus whatever languages it spoke in life)
CR: 6
WotC LA: Not listed, not even the usual "-".
Our LA: +2

From the description, you'd think this thing had some kind of spawn ability, but nope. I also have no idea where the +2 damage against Good foes comes from. It has one more feat than it should, but none of them are marked as bonus feats. The only thing addressed by the errata is that typo I made fun of above.

Its Resistant to Blows halves all physical damage it takes, specifically applying before its DR 5/slashing (or any other DR it may have). +2 Turn Resistance caps off an overall nice chasis. Its Gangrenous Stench forces all living creatures within ten feet to make a Charisma-based Fortitude save or take 1d6 Strength damage and become nauseated. Is that per round? Just once? 24-hour immunity on a successful save? Is the nausea just while it stays within ten feet? No idea. At least it can be turned off.

But its big hitter is Gangrenous Touch, a supernatural disease attached to its slam attack. With an instant incubation, the victim must make a fortitude save every round; taking 1d4 Constitution damage for each failure until they either die, pass two consecutive saves, or receive a remove disease or similar treatment. The save is presumably Charisma-based, but is unspecified. If a creature dies of the Touch, their body rots into nothing over the next 24 hours unless Remove Disease is cast on the remains in that time.

Regardless of the result, a creature can't be infected by Gangrenous Touch again for 24 hours. Note that doesn't specify the Touch of the same Plague Blight.

[H_H_F_F]

Nauseated is one of the best conditions to inflict in the game, hands down. Nothing is immune to it.


The disease does Con damage, which means it is harder to resist every time you fail a save, but it's honestly not as impressive as AoE nauseated in my view. That stench is a real killer.

Unlike the absolute majority of undead, resistance to blows allows the plauge blight to exist comfortably in melee, allowing it to make use of its excellent physical modifiers and natural armor.

I'm not sure what I'm voting yet, but it's going to be +1 or above. This thing is really good for 6 HD, IMO.

[danielxcutter]

How easy is getting through DR/slashing? I was under the implication that damage type DR is pretty easy to get through.

You also have a high AC though, so there's that.

[H_H_F_F]

How easy is getting through DR/slashing? I was under the implication that damage type DR is pretty easy to get through.

You also have a high AC though, so there's that.

Just making sure you've noted "resiatant to blows" applies to all physical attacks, and is not bypassed by slashing damage.

[danielxcutter]

Just making sure you've noted "resiatant to blows" applies to all physical attacks, and is not bypassed by slashing damage.

Oh yeah, that.

How much is blasting a threat to one of these then?

[Thurbane]

Plague Blight

• Medium Undead (Evil subtype)
• 6 RHD (poor BAB, d12hp, one good save, 4 skill points/"level")
• 30 ft speed.
• +8 natural AC.
• Slam 1d6 (+2 damage vs. good) + gangrenous touch.
• Gangrenous touch: supernatural disease; 1d4 Con, immediate onset, save vs. damage each round. 2 saves in a row ends effect. Immune for 24 hours after first infection. If victim dies, it's body dissolves in 24 hours.
• DR 5/slashing.
• Darkvision 60 ft.
• Gangrenous stench: 10 ft area effect, Fort save or take 1d6 Str damage, and be nauseated. No duration listed for the nausea - maybe only until target leaves the area? Can be turned on and off as desired.
• Resistant to blows: half damage from all physical attacks, applied before DR. This is pretty great for a melee type!
• Undead traits.
• +2 turn resistance.
• Str +8, Dex +10, Con --, Int +4, Wis +4, Cha +4: net +30, one non-ability and no penalties.
• Decent racial skill list.

Medium humanoid in form (can manipulate items from artwork), and can speak. Should be no gear of class progression issues.

I think this is a pretty solid melee chassis; lack of con hurts, but the resistance to blows and DR really helps, as well as +8 natural armor. Decent special attacks that are relevant in combat, and nice ability mods. You loose 3 BAB from RHD. At +1, you could hit +16 BAB by ECL 20, but since you probably will rely mainly on your slam for the rider effect, even if you don't should be acceptable. Maybe you could wield in one hand, and slam with the other arm?

Could see this being good for any of the martial adepts, or something like Paladin of Slaughter etc.

LA +2 from me. Could be talked up to +2 at a pinch. +0 seems too little for what you get, even with 6 RHD.

[H_H_F_F]

Oh yeah, that.

How much is blasting a threat to one of these then?

It's a bigger issue for sure, but they should have an excellent reflex save with that Dex, and evasion is only one ring away. Fortitude vased blasting is, of course, useless against them.

As I said, I think this is a very strong option.

[danielxcutter]

It's a bigger issue for sure, but they should have an excellent reflex save with that Dex, and evasion is only one ring away. Fortitude vased blasting is, of course, useless against them.

As I said, I think this is a very strong option.

Well, rays are a thing... Oh wait, +10 Dex.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Oh yeah, that.

How much is blasting a threat to one of these then?

Exactly the same as another character‚ but the Blight has +5 Ref against classical blast and is immune to SoD. Really‚ this is a pain to kill‚ even moreso since if it can approach your casters‚ they get nauseated on Fortitude (so generally it will work nicely). And really‚ there will always be physical damage in a fight‚ even at high level‚ especially if you're a PC and are fighting against monsters.

Really‚ 6 Undead RHD are bad‚ but with the chassis I expected at least 10 (Pathfinder agreed with me‚ by the way‚ giving it 14 HD and a 24h immunity on its nauseated). With these excellent stats on top of it‚ I think I'm going with LA+3 for the Blight. Maybe a strong +2 if there is 24h-immunity.

[danielxcutter]

Exactly the same as another character‚ but the Blight has +5 Ref against classical blast and is immune to SoD. Really‚ this is a pain to kill‚ even moreso since if it can approach your casters‚ they get nauseated on Fortitude (so generally it will work nicely). And really‚ there will always be physical damage in a fight‚ even at high level‚ especially if you're a PC and are fighting against monsters.

Really‚ 6 Undead RHD are bad‚ but with the chassis I expected at least 10 (Pathfinder agreed with me‚ by the way‚ giving it 14 HD and a 24h immunity on its nauseated). With these excellent stats on top of it‚ I think I'm going with LA+3 for the Blight. Maybe a strong +2 if there is 24h-immunity.

I wouldn't say exactly the same as other characters; there certainly are damaging spells that can prove to be a significant threat to one of these. But it's fair to say that it's immune or resistant to most blasting spells I guess.

What kind of blasting spells are there, I wonder? Reflex-for-half spells can be handled yeah(though nat 1s are a thing I guess), and a lot of Fort-based blasting flat out doesn't work on undead either. Rays are a bit more dangerous, but you've got a high touch AC so it's probably a wash. Does Baleful Teleportation work on undead?

[Debatra]

It's a fortitude save that doesn't specify otherwise, so no.

[danielxcutter]

Oh, huh. Thought it'd work.

That leaves like what... Maw of Chaos and Slashing Dispel? Pretty sure there's more than that, but it's still probably a short list I assume?

[Caelestion]

That's a lot of stats for a 6 HD creature. Easily +1, and may well even be +2.

[Troacctid]

Holy hell that thing is beefy. Honestly, I'm on board for the conservative +3. I can easily see this being on par with an ECL 9 human. Maybe +2.

[Caelestion]

I want at least +4 to stats per RHD (it's got +5 and a non-ability), and at least one special ability per 2-3 RHD (touch, stench and resistances, plus being undead into the bargain.)

I'm going to reassess that to at least LA +2.