LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

[H_H_F_F]

LA +2 seems fair to me, and is my vote. It was what I originally thought, but I wanted to see if people could point out unique weaknesses I hadn't noticed, which would bring it down to +1. I'd say +3 is a little too harsh during early levels, though I get why people are saying that.

[Thurbane]

LA +2 seems fair to me, and is my vote. It was what I originally thought, but I wanted to see if people could point out unique weaknesses I hadn't noticed, which would bring it down to +1. I'd say +3 is a little too harsh during early levels, though I get why people are saying that.

Yeah, I've come around to +2. I'm going back to amend my post.

[Remuko]

+1 from me. maybe if there was some more detailed breakdown i could be swayed but as is, it seems good but designed to beatstick, and shouldnt lose that last iterative.

[Efrate]

+2. A very nice base for a non caster. Abilities that give beatsticks staying power, a nice rider that helps your SoL aura out, and nausea is very hard to work around or get an immunity. It is also relevant at all levels and while mostly useless vs. big dumb beatsticks it wrecks most casters. And the con damage may make even the big dumb beatsticks fail sometimes.

Needs some adjudication as to frequency etc. but even the standard save is immune for 24 hours, and nausea as long as they are within range it is still really good.

[remetagross]

I'm nto 100% proposing the latter as much as that...I kinda assumed that the "pay XP instead of LA" would be getting replaced with just LA, because this entire project is about getting rid of the existing costs and reevaluating what various things are actually worth. Tossing out the XP/GP costs makes similar sense to me as tossing out the existing LA, but I can see that's not a universal sentiment. In any case, however the chair ends up viewing it, I've got my vote locked in: LA +0 if it's in addition to the XP/GP, LA +1 if it's in place of them.

Spoiler: Details

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Necropolitan is typically taken at lvl 3, since this is when it costs you the least XP - it sets you back half a level, and then -1000 XP, putting you at exactly 1000 XP and exactly at lvl 2, while the other three party members are at exactly 3000 XP and exactly at lvl 3.

The party faces 9 CR 3 encounters, each party member getting 225 XP per encounter. At this point, the necropolitan is at 3025 XP (3rd lvl) and the others are at 5025 XP (3rd lvl).

The party faces 5 CR 3 encounters, each party member getting 225 XP per encounter. At this point, the necropolitan is at 4150 XP (3rd lvl) and the others are at 6150 XP (4th lvl).

The party faces 6 CR 4 encounters, with necro getting 338 XP per, and the others getting 300 XP per. At this point, the necropolitan is at 6178 XP (4th lvl), and the others are at 7950 (4th lvl).

The party faces 7 CR 4 encounters, with everyone getting 300 XP per. At this point, the necro is at 8278 XP (4th lvl) and the others are at 10050 XP (5th lvl).

The party faces 5 CR 5 encounters, with necro getting 400 XP per, and the others getting 375 XP per. At this point, the necro is at 10278 XP (5th lvl) and the others are at 11925 XP (5th).

The party faces 9 CR 5 encounters, with everyone getting 375 XP per. At this point, the necro is at 13653 XP (5th lvl) and the others are at 15300 (6th lvl).

The party faces 3 CR 6 encounters, with necro getting 563 XP per and the others getting 450 XP per. At this point, the necro is at 15342 XP (6th lvl) and the others are at 16650 XP (6th lvl).

The party faces 10 CR 6 encounters, with everyone getting 450 XP per. At this point, the necro is at 19842 XP (6th lvl) and the others are at 21150 XP (7th lvl).

The party faces 2 CR 7 encounters, with necro getting 675 XP per and the others getting 525 XP per. At this point, the necro is at 21192 XP (7th lvl) and the others are at 22200 XP (7th lvl).

The party faces 12 CR 7 encounters, with everyone getting 525 XP per. At this point, the necro is at 27492 XP (7th lvl) and the others are at 28500 XP (8th lvl).

The party faces 1 CR 8 encounter, with necro getting 788 XP and the others getting 600 XP. At this point, the necro is at 28280 XP (8th lvl) and the others are at 29100 XP (8th lvl).

The party faces 12 CR 8 encounters, with everyone getting 600 XP per. At this point, the necro is at 35480 XP (8th lvl) and the others are at 36300 (9th lvl).

The party faces 1 CR 9 encounter, with necro getting 900 XP and the others getting 675 XP. At this point, the necro is at 36180 XP (9th lvl) and the others are at 36975 XP (9th lvl).

The party faces 12 CR 9 encounters, with everyone getting 675 XP per. At this point, the necro is at 44280 XP (9th lvl) and the others are at 45075 XP (10th lvl).

The party faces 1 CR 10 encounter, with necro getting 1013 XP and the others getting 750 XP. At this point, the necro is at 45293 XP (10th lvl) and the others are at 45825 XP (10th lvl).

The party faces 13 CR 10 encounters, with everyone getting 750 XP per. At this point, the necro is at 55043 XP (11th lvl) and the others are at 55575 XP (11th lvl).

The party faces 13 CR 11 encounters, with everyone getting 825 XP per. At this point, the necro is at 65768 XP (11th lvl) and the others are at 66300 XP (12th lvl).

The party faces 1 CR 12 encounter, with necro getting 1238 XP and the others getting 900 XP. At this point, the necro is at 67006 XP (12th lvl) and the others are at 67200 XP (12th lvl).

The party faces 12 CR 12 encounters, with everyone getting 900 XP. At this point, the necro is at 77806 XP (12th lvl) and the others are at 78000 XP (13th lvl).

The party faces 1 CR 13 encounter, with necro getting 1350 XP and the others getting 975 XP. At this point, the necro is at 79156 XP (13th lvl) and the others are at 78975 XP (13th lvl).

From one perspective, you "catch up" before your allies even reach 4th lvl. From another perspective, you don't fully catch up until you're one encounter into 13th lvl.

From perhaps the fairest perspective, it takes you 135 encounters to fully catch up, but also you spend 105 of those encounters at the same level as your allies, except you also have undead benefits on top of that.

EDIT: Obviously the exact details are going to depend on exactly what mix of encounters you deal with. I'm not sure if you'd catch up quicker or slower if there was a proper encounter mix, nor am I sure if you'd catch up quicker or slower if you took Necropolitan at 4th lvl instead of 3rd (since taking it at 3rd lvl, lvl 2 and 3 characters get the same XP reward from encounters, whereas 3rd and 4th lvl characters get different rewards).

For the first 9 ECL 3 encounters, wouldn't the Necropolitan character gain more exp than the rest of the party? Since he's level 2 at this point. If I'm correct then that means the lost level is regained a tad earlier than what your calculation suggests.

However - congrats for having undertaken the complete process. It's much more tedious than people imagine when they ask "at which level will that LA buyoff allow me to catch up with the others?"

About the Plague Blight: impressive monster. I was surprised to only see 6 HDs too. Its defensive abilities are incredibly potent, it even has a great racial skill list, bonus abilities everywhere, a very powerful aura, and a disease that forces a save every round...I'll go for LA +3 here.

[danielxcutter]

Does the DC keep up? Veil of Allure(probably not exactly RAI, but 100% RAW and pretty cheap too)+Ability Focus should keep it relevant for a while I suppose... though I feel real dirty using a VoA for something like this.

[AvatarVecna]

For the first 9 ECL 3 encounters, wouldn't the Necropolitan character gain more exp than the rest of the party? Since he's level 2 at this point. If I'm correct then that means the lost level is regained a tad earlier than what your calculation suggests.

However - congrats for having undertaken the complete process. It's much more tedious than people imagine when they ask "at which level will that LA buyoff allow me to catch up with the others?"

About the Plague Blight: impressive monster. I was surprised to only see 6 HDs too. Its defensive abilities are incredibly potent, it even has a great racial skill list, bonus abilities everywhere, a very powerful aura, and a disease that forces a save every round...I'll go for LA +3 here.

Characters of levels 1, 2, and 3 gain the same XP benefit from encounters faced if you actually look at things in the Dungeon Master's guide.

[remetagross]

Ah, so that's that. Thanks.

[liquidformat]

I am still sitting on the fence milling over what the rating for this Blighter should be. I think Gangrenous Touch is the first and only disease that is a legitimate concern from a combat point of view; however, disease immunity though less common than poison immunity is still pretty common all constructs and undead are immune by default as are third level and above paladins, fifth level and above monks, anyone with 13 con who takes disease immunity, and its pretty common for any party to keep a couple scrolls of delay disease on hand, with remove disease being a third level spell. While it is disappointing Gangrenous Touch doesn't effect all the blighter's natural attacks which rules out going full natural attack blender it being a rider on slam means you can still use it with a two handed weapon since slam isn't specifically attached to the arms.

Gangrenous Stench while interesting also has some issues as has been stated before the text isn't explicit on activation deactivation action cost and there is a large difference between it being an immediate, free, swift, move, standard, or full round action and I can see an argument for any and all of these. Beyond that 10' radius does really force the Blighter to be up in people's business to be effective.

Resistant to Blows does reduce a lot of the hurt from being an undead in melee especially since the Blighter doesn't get d12 for class level but only for its RHD. But it also makes energy damage the go to way in attacking you so yes optimizing dex is pretty important for you since you are most likely going to be hurting in HP department. Comically the best counter to a Blighter is an archer with an energy bow, if said archer can catch the blighter flat footed they can potentially kill the blighter in a single round. So I guess it is a good thing such archers are pretty uncommon on the NPC side of the table.

I have been thinking about what would be good builds for Blighters. For both Gangrenous stench and touch cha optimization is quite important, Dex optimization is going to be better than Str though with +10 Dex and +8 Str the Blighter is capable of both. Given the fact that like many undead Blighter is stuck with what ever HD it gets from its class going with classes with D10 and D12 is much smarter even if you have RtB. Whirling Frenzy Lion Spirit Totem Barb 1 (2 if you want to pickup trip) into Crusader seems like a pretty easy path though warblade doesn't seem bad either. In this case I don't think Paladin is worth your time unless you want to lean into From Smite to Song and go into War Chanter which gives a pretty big hit to HP but quite interesting. If you want to glass cannon it and completely focus on AC and ignore your HP I think its possible to go straight into Warrior Skald given the right feats (Martial Study [Dimond Mind maneuver] and say apprentice to pickup perform) then lean hard into Snowflake Wardance, extra bardic music and two weapon fighting. If you are feeling like having a headache you could even try to dervish to optimize the use of your Gangrenous abilities.

Either way even with RtB I still worry about HP, I think at +3 LA your hitting the point of no return where you are in danger of being killed in a single round due to low HP. I think +2 LA seems reasonable it locks you out of your final iterative and 9th level maneuvers without LA buyoff which I think is a fair trade for the package you are getting.

On a side note, do spells like shatter that can affect objects and therefore undead make undead make a will or a fort save? If it is forcing a fort save then I am pretty sure an at ECL Caster has a good chance of one shotting a blighter with shatter...

[danielxcutter]

Nitpick: this has nothing to do with Blighters. Blighters suck and these apparently don't.

[liquidformat]

Nitpick: this has nothing to do with Blighters. Blighters suck and these apparently don't.

Fair point but it is easier to type blighter than Plague blight and given context everyone knows what I was referring to, guess I should have gone for Blighty instead?...

[Tzardok]

fifth level and above monks, anyone with 13 con who takes disease immunity, and its pretty common for any party to keep a couple scrolls of delay disease on hand, with remove disease being a third level spell.

Monks are only immune to natural diseases. Gangrenous Touch is a supernatural disease. Also, do you remember where Disease Immunity is from? I can't find it anymore, but I vaguely remember that you had to choose a specific disease to be immune against.

On a side note, do spells like shatter that can affect objects and therefore undead make undead make a will or a fort save? If it is forcing a fort save then I am pretty sure an at ECL Caster has a good chance of one shotting a blighter with shatter...

I would say that it doesn't affect undead at all as long as they aren't crystalline. Shatter only affects crystalline creatures and normal objects. I think that the immunity of non-con creatures (pun intended ) against everything requiring a fort. save except those that also affect objects means that only effects work that don't care wether they target an object or a creature. It doesn't mean that spells that only affect creatures suddenly affect undead too. And Shatter's effect changes depending on if it hits a creature or an object.

[Efrate]

Would beast strike from dragon magazine allow your touch to apply to all unarmed attacks? That is a potent blender and makes undead meldshaper an option. Unarmed swordsage into totemist 2 into xyz would be fine. Maybe crusader and Mot9?

As a walking debuff bot you have a few solid options that synergizes even without being highest tier. A binder for triple debuff aura after binder 6/KotSS.

You also have stats to do pretty much anything. You suck as a pure caster because of RHD but anything else works. Hell you could gimp yourself and be a full caster into abjurant champion, spelldancer, dread witch, eldritch knight with a debuff focus or whathaveyou and still work. Nausea plus glitterdust, grease, or whatever else you want with nauseas penalties is going to be relevant pretty much forever.

[Temotei]

On a side note, do spells like shatter that can affect objects and therefore undead make undead make a will or a fort save? If it is forcing a fort save then I am pretty sure an at ECL Caster has a good chance of one shotting a blighter with shatter...

They would be required to make a Will save if they were hit with the area effect (or if they are crystalline and targeted specifically) and then the spell would do nothing regardless.

Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).

Area or Target: 5-ft.-radius spread; or one solid object or one crystalline creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates (object); Will negates (object) or Fortitude half; see text

Used as an area attack, shatter destroys nonmagical objects of crystal, glass, ceramic, or porcelain. All such objects within a 5-foot radius of the point of origin are smashed into dozens of pieces by the spell. Objects weighing more than 1 pound per your level are not affected, but all other objects of the appropriate composition are shattered.

Alternatively, you can target shatter against a single solid object, regardless of composition, weighing up to 10 pounds per caster level. Targeted against a crystalline creature (of any weight), shatter deals 1d6 points of sonic damage per caster level (maximum 10d6), with a Fortitude save for half damage.

Shatter is indeed an effect that works on objects, so the undead makes the object save (Will negates). Shatter's area line doesn't exclude undead, but the target line does--the solid object part of the target portion of the line wouldn't allow undead to be targeted, since they aren't objects. If it's a crystalline undead, though, they can be targeted.

Though, in this case, that's not great because it does nothing, as per the text, since shatter only destroys objects, and undead are still creatures, despite being vulnerable to spells that target objects. In addition, all undead are immune to the damage portion, even if they are crystalline.

[liquidformat]

Would beast strike from dragon magazine allow your touch to apply to all unarmed attacks? That is a potent blender and makes undead meldshaper an option. Unarmed swordsage into totemist 2 into xyz would be fine. Maybe crusader and Mot9?

As a walking debuff bot you have a few solid options that synergizes even without being highest tier. A binder for triple debuff aura after binder 6/KotSS.

You also have stats to do pretty much anything. You suck as a pure caster because of RHD but anything else works. Hell you could gimp yourself and be a full caster into abjurant champion, spelldancer, dread witch, eldritch knight with a debuff focus or whathaveyou and still work. Nausea plus glitterdust, grease, or whatever else you want with nauseas penalties is going to be relevant pretty much forever.

Sorry I don't play meldshapers much so I am a bit unclear but I thought undead were horrible at meldshaping because they have no con. What benefit is totemist giving over just swordsage. Also swordsage with d6 hd means you are hard tanking HP which can still be an issue for Blighty even with RtB taken into consideration. With that said Beast Strike is a decent choice if you can figure out a good build to go with it, I still don't think monk or unarmed swordsage are great choices for Blighty, but I can see a glass cannon argument for them.

Sure glitterdust, grease and other debuff spells are great in conjunction with nausea but you are at best some goofy low op gish unless you are using tier 0 full casting PRCs. That seems more like an argument that you do well with a debuffer in the party more than you should go down the caster path.

Monks are only immune to natural diseases. Gangrenous Touch is a supernatural disease. Also, do you remember where Disease Immunity is from? I can't find it anymore, but I vaguely remember that you had to choose a specific disease to be immune against.

Heroes of Horror, and I think this is perhaps the only disease really worth taking that feat for, especially for any on going enemies in the game.

I would say that it doesn't affect undead at all as long as they aren't crystalline. Shatter only affects crystalline creatures and normal objects. I think that the immunity of non-con creatures (pun intended ) against everything requiring a fort. save except those that also affect objects means that only effects work that don't care wether they target an object or a creature. It doesn't mean that spells that only affect creatures suddenly affect undead too. And Shatter's effect changes depending on if it hits a creature or an object.

Oh dang yeah after actually reading through Shatter it isn't going to work, what other spells are their that target objects that could be potent on undead?

[danielxcutter]

I think the reason Totemist is mentioned is because even undead can get the crapzillion natural attacks it's well known for with a feat and a good Wisdom. The problem is that they still can't take Incarnum feats, and meldshapers aren't exactly high-tier even with them.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Oh dang yeah after actually reading through Shatter it isn't going to work, what other spells are their that target objects that could be potent on undead?

Disintegrate.

Also Energy Lance, but mostly Disintegrate.

[danielxcutter]

Glass Strike also works I think.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Glass Strike also works I think.

The spell mentions "as Flesh to stone". I don't think undead are considered as "made of flesh" (?).

[liquidformat]

The spell mentions "as Flesh to stone". I don't think undead are considered as "made of flesh" (?).

Hum flesh to stone is always one of those spells that I thought should have had some wording added for 'fleshy' corporeal undead. But that is neither hear nor there.

Disintegrate and sound lance seem pretty nasty for blighty, particularly one who goes for small hd classes like swordsage.

I think the reason Totemist is mentioned is because even undead can get the crapzillion natural attacks it's well known for with a feat and a good Wisdom. The problem is that they still can't take Incarnum feats, and meldshapers aren't exactly high-tier even with them.

So is the idea to add totemist claw damage to the beast fist as well? otherwise it doesn't seem that helpful.

[Troacctid]

Monks are only immune to natural diseases. Gangrenous Touch is a supernatural disease. Also, do you remember where Disease Immunity is from? I can't find it anymore, but I vaguely remember that you had to choose a specific disease to be immune against.

It's a sucker's feat. You want Shape Soulmeld (Pauldrons of Health). That'll make you immune to all diseases and the sickened and nauseated conditions.

[liquidformat]

It's a sucker's feat. You want Shape Soulmeld (Pauldrons of Health). That'll make you immune to all diseases and the sickened and nauseated conditions.

Well there you go even better than Disease Immunity, with one feat you have shutdown both of Blighty's abilities!

[danielxcutter]

Well there you go even better than Disease Immunity, with one feat you have shutdown both of Blighty's abilities!

I’d say a DM who gives every enemy a feat that shuts down someone’s abilities is an arsewipe.

[Troacctid]

Frankly, more NPCs should probably be taking Pauldrons of Health. Glowy floaty shoulderpads may not be fashionable, but disease immunity is very useful in everyday life. Especially if you want to be a chef, or a doctor, or a sanitation engineer...

[Roninblack]

I'll agree +2, lots of non caster options and strong at them, heck this thing might even be an interesting rogue

[Thurbane]

I kind of want to make a Plague Blight NPC/SBEG for my game now. Winder what class levels to apply?

[Beni-Kujaku]

I kind of want to make a Plague Blight NPC/SBEG for my game now. Winder what class levels to apply?

I think it would be extremely cool to have it as a paladin of slaughter, using a (heavily nerfed) nightmare or an undead horse as its mount. It would get to use both physical and mental stats in combat, and could lay on hands on itself to heal.

Alternatively, a cleric with the retribution, slimes, suffering, or pestilence domains could be pretty interesting.

[danielxcutter]

Oh right monsters can cheese the CR. That could be useful. Depends on the power level and CR of the party though.

[liquidformat]

I’d say a DM who gives every enemy a feat that shuts down someone’s abilities is an arsewipe.

I never meant every npc I meant the BBEG and at least some of his goons...

[danielxcutter]

I don't think a DM who makes some of your most used abilities worthless is a great one either unless they're really disruptive. This... isn't that bad.

Also for real; if not just a few spells or items but their builds are specifically designed to counter you I think you're qualified to call BS.