LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

[Debatra]

When it's their entire build, sure. But the line becomes a bit thinner when a single feat manages to cripple a creature.

That said though, undead and constructs are also immune to both of the Plague Blight's big hitters. If the DM is constantly using things that no-sell you, it's an issue. If it's just an occasional thing, it should be fine.

[danielxcutter]

When it's their entire build, sure. But the line becomes a bit thinner when a single feat manages to cripple a creature.

That said though, undead and constructs are also immune to both of the Plague Blight's big hitters. If the DM is constantly using things that no-sell you, it's an issue. If it's just an occasional thing, it should be fine.

Yeah, that sounds fair.

[Blue Jay]

I really dislike the artwork for the plague blight. For whatever reason, that's the picture in Libris Mortis that I find most disturbing, to the extent that I have always summarily avoided looking at this monster entry, and I have to use a cover sheet to read the Necropolitan entry before it.

The aura of nausea seems like the plague blight's most potent weapon to me, because it's passive, controllable, and steals action economy from your enemies. Of course, that's assuming that is a continuous, passive aura (which I assume is RAI). But the actual wording is technically more similar to the wording for an instantaneous effect, so it would be easy to rules-lawyer it like that (providing you have one of those DMs who doesn't do common sense). But using an (Ex) ability is a free action unless otherwise stated; so there's a real problem with that interpretation. This ability clearly needed some much better rules text.

The rapid-incubation disease is also pretty potent. Contrary to liquidformat's statement above, it hasn't been my experience that parties regularly invest in abilities to combat diseases, so this disease would be absolutely terrifying for the people I play with. Well, wait... does lesser restoration remove supernatural diseases? It says it "...dispels any magical effects reducing one of the subject's ability scores...", so it seems like supernatural diseases might be covered. And lesser restoration is definitely a spell that clerics (even enemy clerics) try to always have access to, so maybe the means to combat Gangrenous Touch aren't as rare as I imagine.

At any rate, both of those abilities are still pretty hefty abilities. And that damage resistance + DR, elevated natural armor, and +5 to abilities / HD are all really good for a front-liner, which is the kind of character that can really make use of those hefty special attacks.

I'm not entirely sure that LA +2 is necessary, though. I'm going to vote LA +2 for the plague blight anyway, just to be conservative; but I'm not sure that it wouldn't be okay at LA +1 (ECL 7).

[Temotei]

I kind of want to make a Plague Blight NPC/SBEG for my game now. Winder what class levels to apply?

Duskblade would be kind of fun. Channel spells through your slam attack for extra pain.

[Debatra]

Supernatural Abilities can't be dispelled.

[Thurbane]

Duskblade would be kind of fun. Channel spells through your slam attack for extra pain.

Duskblade into Renegade Mastermaker, so you can get iteratives with your slam!

[edit] Just noticed, you need to be a Humanoid for RM. Unless you cheese your way in with Human Heritage, no dice. [/edit]

[Falontani]

Used a Plague Blight in a fairly recent session. I will admit that my table has a house rule for poisons and diseases escalating in DC every time they are subject to the same one during the duration, but the Gangrenous Touch was absolutely nasty and nearly killed the Vow of Poverty Sentinel of Bharrai gish who was running an Ability Enhancered Bear's Endurance. So roughly 24-26 con? Granted the character has low fortitude saves, but he was down to 2-3 con left at the end of the fight, and was not fighting off the disease. Luckily they had a Rod of Bodily Restoration on hand, and an NPC healer within teleportation range.

I will again remind everyone that becoming large gives the creature multiple slam attacks if nothing else. The creature is a good base for a Paladin of Tyranny/Divine Crusader. Righteous Might is on the Strength Domain.

A good plausible build:
Plague Blight 6/Paladin of Tyranny 4/Divine Crusader 2/Ordained Champion 5/Contemplative 1/LA +2 gets 6th level spells off of the War, Strength, and Destruction domains with Righteous Might and Divine Power your strength will be off the charts, you will have access to Divine Metamagic if you wish, some limited healing from the inflict spells and Harm, you will have 2 slams as a full attack, but could also do your iteratives, most of your HD are d10, you would get your cha to saves, and as a spellcasting stat. Would be a pretty good front line imo.

LA +2

[Tzardok]

I think I am going with +2 too.

[GreatWyrmGold]

The quintessential "I'm undead now" template. Elegant in its simplicity, because it does almost nothing else. You get +2 turn resistance, a +2 profane bonus to saves against the Control Undead spell, and you retain the ability to heal HP and ability damage as if you were still alive. (Though the Heal skill still doesn't work on you.)

Since Debatra didn't, I'm going to point out that those extra bonuses just make you more resistance to things that didn't affect you before and remove one drawback of being undead.

If you just want to be undead without any fancy tricks or big drawbacks, this is probably the simplest way to go about it. ...Well, out of character at least. In character, the Ritual of Crucimigration (Yes, a portmanteau of crucifixion and immigration.) is 24 hours of excruciating pain described as feeling like molten metal in your veins.

I mean, that's probably still simpler than most other methods of becoming an undead. You need to die and hire a necromancer to become most kinds of cool intelligent undead, you need to be a necromancer and get the evil equivalent of a PhD to become a lich, and...well, I guess you can turn into a wight just by getting beaten up by another wight.

I think instead of the xp cost and gold cost, an LA of +1 might be worth considering.

It's certainly simpler than the XP cost. Unless someone acquires the necropolitan template in the middle of a campaign, but that seems unlikely.

I wonder whether the inexorably high price of crafting the phylactery was yet another of WotC’s “Well yes, but actually no” minotaur crap things about monstrous PCs.

Probably. Liches aren't just your everyday evil humanoid; they're supposed to be uniquely powerful spellcasters, endangering entire continents with their fell magic. You can play a renegade drow, but there's no lich society for a lich to renege on.

From the description, you'd think this thing had some kind of spawn ability, but nope.

The description doesn't imply plague blights make more plague blights by corrupting/infecting people. It does make sense thematically, both because it inflicts the same sort of ailment that created it and because it's an undead personification of plague and/or blight (which is infectious), but it's not really implied.

With an instant incubation, the victim must make a fortitude save every round...

Finally, someone found a way to make disease abilities matter in combat! Or at all, once clerics pick up remove disease and maybe lesser restoration...

When it's their entire build, sure. But the line becomes a bit thinner when a single feat manages to cripple a creature.

It's one thing if that feat is, I dunno, Mobility or Power Attack or something, but it's quite another when it's a specific Shape Soulmeld.


I'll go with +2 for the Plague Blight, on account of it having some potent and fairly unique (or at least hard-to-replicate) abilities. Taking half damage from all physical attacks is pretty big for tanks, for instance; it doesn't quite double their effective hit points, but most of the time, enemies with swords and claws are a lot more common than spellcasters and dragons, so it comes close. (Also free-action nauseation and Strength damage and combat-scale disease.)

[Debatra]

+1 - Remuko
+2 - Thurbane, Caelestion, H_H_F_F, Efrate, liquidformat, Roninblack, Blue Jay, Falontani, Tzardok, GreatWyrmGold
+3 - Beni-Kujaku, Troacctid, remetagross

+2 it is then. Quell is next up.

[Debatra]

Quell

Size & Type: Medium Undead (Incorporeal)
Space/Reach: 5'/5'
HD: 5
Speed: Fly 60' (Good)
Ability Scores: Str -, Dex +6, Con -, Int +4, Wis +4, Cha +4 - Net +18, no penalties
Natural Armor: 0
Natural Weapons: Incorporeal Touch (1d4)
Skill List: Diplomacy, Hide, Intimidate, Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival
Body Shape: Humanoid
Speech (Languages): Yes (Common, Infernal)
CR: 3
WotC LA: -
Our LA: -0

Looks like the ghost of an Illumian. Solid ability scores, incorporeality, and +4 Turn Resistance make a good chasis. Daylight Powerlessness sucks as always, but is just as easy to deal with as with any other incorporeal creature. Like the Plague Blight before it, it has too many feats. This time though, Weapon Finesse was removed by the errata. Using Dex instead of Str is still a normal part of being incorporeal of course. ...Of course, even then it still has one too many feats with none marked as Bonus feats.

This thing hates gods and those who serve them. Relax, this thing is nowhere near strong enough to actually attack a deity. (Could you imagine that at 5 HD? ) They have an ability called Intercession, essentially "Turn Divine Spellcasters". It works exactly as the Turn Undead ability of a cleric of their HD, but instead of Turning or Destroying divine casters, the Quell temporarily snuffs out their divine casting and turning abilities. If successful, affected casters lose these abilities for one minute. If the Quell has at least twice as many HD as the caster has divine spellcaster levels (not Caster Level, so boosting tricks won't work to defend against it), it lasts 24 hours. If the Quell attacks an affected caster in any way, or if the caster receives an Atonement, the effect immediately ends. The Quell's allies however, are not restricted. Just like Turning, this can be done 3+ChaMod times per day.

Note that "it works exactly like Turn Undead" is a shorthand used by me, and not by the book. The book goes over the details of how the ability works. Things that boost Turning/Rebuking may or may not work with Intercession. Consult your DM.

Quells can also take a standard action to assist another Quell's Intercession attempt. Each assisting Quell increases the Interceding Quell's effective cleric level by one, with no cap. This is a separate ability from their Intercession, and it doesn't say whether or not this uses one of the assisting Quell's daily Intercession attempts. The lack of a cap makes me wonder if an asterisk might be appropriate, but you'd need a lot of Quells to really abuse it. We've asterisked abusable things despite potential difficulty in doing the actual abuse before, but this isn't exactly on the same level as nigh-infinite ability scores or an uncapped spawn ability. Leave it to the votes, I guess.

[H_H_F_F]

Incorporeality is great, ability scores are very good, but 5 undead HD is a LOT, and the special attack (while certainly powerful) is extremely situational.

That's probably gonna be an LA -0 from me, though I did consider +0 for a moment. I don't see the need for an asterisk without the ability to create more of these guys, but I'll defer to the majority in this case.

[danielxcutter]

This is far from useless but it’s still a bit. Well. Underwhelming. And you can’t really go full caster.

Does the Intercession “turning” bonus stack with class HD? I think that quell archmage in Elder Evils does, but then again adventure paths and such are hardly solid evidence for these things.

[liquidformat]

This is far from useless but it’s still a bit. Well. Underwhelming. And you can’t really go full caster.

Does the Intercession “turning” bonus stack with class HD? I think that quell archmage in Elder Evils does, but then again adventure paths and such are hardly solid evidence for these things.

The way Intercession is written supports class levels and RHD together rather than just RHD. However, Intercession ability, Incorporeal, and undead don't seem like enough to justify 5 undead rhd and Daylight Powerlessness so I am comfortable with -0 LA.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Why does it have Sigils again? Oh, sorry, "free-standing glyphs that viscerally demonstrate the creature's anathema to all things divine". That really looks like something a god would do (you know, like Tarmuid with Illumians), not really occuring naturally. I would see a follower of gods have that, instead of someone who hates them. I could see some deeper thing there (cursed by gods to never be abe to pass on to afterlife or something), but as often, no other edition has it, and what we have is extremely incomplete.
Anyway, Intercession is pretty weird. Disregarding the obvious typo ("if the quell has twice as many HD as the character has divine levels...", which means nothing but would be hilarious if it meant divine ranks), I'm really not sure what the conditions for breaking the intercession mean. Atonement, why? It's not the spellcaster who comitted a fault, so atone for what, and also, who would prepare and cast a 1-hour casting time spell for a condition that in most cases subsides in 1-minute, and never lasts more than a day anyway? And finally, the "attack" condition. Again, what does that have to do with anything? Is the quell supposed to answer to a greater power which hates gods, but it must never intercede for its own protection? Why, then, is it described as hating all life if it can't even kill someone who worships gods? Also, its attack is an incorporeal touch. Does that mean a cleric could just go touch the quell, take the 1d4 (what is that ridiculous amount anyway), and regain their power? That monster is an absolute mess in more ways than one.

Spoiler: Trying to interpret the lore

Show

The atonement means that it is not just that the quell prevents you from communicating with your god, but more that the deity themselves are displeased that you came into contact with the quell (apparently not that displeased since they forgive you in one minute, but still). Which makes me think of the only other effect that has a similar effect: excommunicate. It says that any other person worshipping the god can recognize the excommunicated by sight alone. Which means there is some sort of symbol on the person that can be seen by divine worshippers. A symbol created by gods but as a mark of shame instead of trust like the illumian. Probably the same as the evil brand feat. So a quell would be someone excommunicated not only by one cult, but by all deities at once, preventing it from entering any afterlife and cursing it to stay on earth. This is why it has excommunication brands from all deities, or all pantheons, instead of just one, and hence why everybody can see at least some of them (those corresponding to their patron deity, and to their alignment, supposedly).

At first, I was surprised by the name of the Intercession ability. Why name an harmful ability with a word that means "praying in favor of someone". But with this interpretation, it makes sense. The quell does just that, it prays the caster's deity to help the caster. But since the one making the prayer is so utterly despised by the deity in question, the deity feels like the caster associated with an heretic, and removes their ability to use divine spells. But with atonement, the deity understands the caster did not have anything to do with the quell. Same if the quell attacks the caster, it shows that they are enemies, so there is no reason to keep the ban.

Huh, that made more sense that I initially envisioned, neat.

Mechanically, it is just underwhelming. Incorporality is good, with all it entails (flight, touch attacks....), but the quell lacks almost everything else that made the ghost good, and Intercession really means taking one opponent out of the battle with a lot of conditions, and which probably can't be improved the way turning can. Being a one-trick pony with a situational one trick that doesn't work on people stronger than you has never made a good character. LA -0 for me.

[Remuko]

Seems like a -0 but not massively.

[Thurbane]

Quell

• Medium Undead (Incorporeal)
• 5 RHD (d12hp, poor BAB, 1 good save, 4 skill points/"level")
• Fly 60 ft (good).
• Cha bonus as deflection to AC.
• Incorporeal touch 1d4.
• Coupled intercession: are you likely to be travelling with other Quells? Not much use for a PC.
• Intercession: cut off divine casters from their source, temporarily cutting their access to spells and turning. Very niche, and works much better as an encounter than as a PC's special attack.
• Darkvision 60 ft.
• Daylight powerlessness: annoying.
• Incorporeal traits.
• Undead traits.
• +4 turn resistance.
• Str --, Dex +6, Con --, Int +4, Wis +4, Cha +4: two non-abilities, no penalties, net +18.
• Smallish but decent racial skill list.

Humanoid in form (but incorporeal); can speak. Will have the usual issues that incorporeal creatures have with gear.

So upsides are undead traits, being incorporeal, and decent ability mods. Downsides are sunlight powerlessness, being incorporeal (yes, it comes with a bunch of downsides), non-ability scores, and 5 RHD. I count intercession as neither, since it's so niche to be nigh-on useless. Sure, when you finally are fighting enemy clerics, it will be grand, but it will have zero bearing on the vast majority of encounters.

For class progression, I dunno, maybe skillmonkey or scouting type?

Being incorporeal at 5RHD and having decent abilities mods is nice, but I can't say it's worth 5 class levels. LA -0 from me (not by a lot, though). There are lower HD options for being incorporeal, and this creature gets little to make up for that.

[Troacctid]

I personally think daylight powerlessness is worth an asterisk, and the upside of the extra stats and turn resistance compared to that 3 HD one we just did (whatever its name was) justifies the extra hit dice. I would put it at +0*.

[Falontani]

I honestly can't think of a quell that doesn't go Ur Priest. It just fits too well. I don't really think they are worth LA +0, but I have a soft spot for them

[Efrate]

-0 As much as i hate giving that to incorporeal that mostly all it gets and I do not think its worth 5 undead hd.

[Blue Jay]

Anyway, Intercession is pretty weird. Disregarding the obvious typo ("if the quell has twice as many HD as the character has divine levels...", which means nothing but would be hilarious if it meant divine ranks)...

Why do you think it's a typo? It's kind of a clumsy phraseology, but the meaning is pretty obvious.

I'm really not sure what the conditions for breaking the intercession mean. Atonement, why? It's not the spellcaster who comitted a fault, so atone for what, and also, who would prepare and cast a 1-hour casting time spell for a condition that in most cases subsides in 1-minute, and never lasts more than a day anyway?

It's a situational monster designed for the DM to use in a specific way. If the villain is performing his profane ritual tonight at midnight, knocking out the PCs' divine caster for 24 hours is a pretty solid tactic for him to employ, and those requirements are not really trivial.

And finally, the "attack" condition. Again, what does that have to do with anything? Is the quell supposed to answer to a greater power which hates gods, but it must never intercede for its own protection? Why, then, is it described as hating all life if it can't even kill someone who worships gods? Also, its attack is an incorporeal touch. Does that mean a cleric could just go touch the quell, take the 1d4 (what is that ridiculous amount anyway), and regain their power? That monster is an absolute mess in more ways than one.

It's not that weird. Turn/Rebuke Undead has similar restrictions on how you can interact with a creature you've turned, so it's not like these strictures on the quell's Intercession are completely out in left field.

Plus, incorporeal touch attacks aren't triggered passively, so the quell is in complete control of that.

-----

I think the quell gets LA +0 from me. It looks like it's pretty much identical to the wraith, but with Intercession replacing Constitution Drain. The ability drain seems more versatile than intercession (especially with Create Spawn attached), so the quell loses out to the wraith, in my opinion; but I still think incorporeality is a big enough deal to warrant 5 RHD on this creature. Speaking as someone who has DMed for incorporeal PCs, it does force you to rethink and restructure a lot of encounters and adventures; so I'm sticking with a conservative vote here.

And I also don't think the asterisk is necessary: since quells don't create spawn and aren't available on any summon lists, and there aren't any mechanics listed for creating them, the Coupled Intercession will be quite difficult to abuse.

Finally, I just noticed that Libris Mortis actually explicitly explains what "daylight powerlessness" means. On the table on p. 140, it says: "A powerless undead creature cannot attack, nor can it use any extraordinary or supernatural special attacks. It is treated as being slowed." So I guess we at least know how that mechanic works. That's a pretty debilitating weakness, and that might be the only reason I'd consider revising my vote down to LA -0.

[H_H_F_F]

I personally think daylight powerlessness is worth an asterisk

I don't follow. Why does it need an asterisk?

[Thurbane]

I don't follow. Why does it need an asterisk?

I'm assuming the same reason a Dryad would, due to limits of where the character can operate.

I don't think it asterisk worthy myself. There's feats, spells and items that help, not to mention just sliding into the ground if you need to. Have other daylight vulnerable creatures got an asterisk before?

[GreatWyrmGold]

Looks like the ghost of an Illumian.

New headcanon.

Relax, this thing is nowhere near strong enough to actually attack a deity. (Could you imagine that at 5 HD? )

I theorize that gods are even MORE vulnerable to a Quell than a mortal of the same level would be.


Anyways, I vote -0, no asterisk. No asterisk because enemies you can use Intercession on are extraordinarily rare, so even if you went to the effort of gathering enough Quells to overwhelm them there wouldn't be much point.
I feel confident saying the Quell is more interesting to expand the lore for than to play. On a related note: IIRC, the god stats in Deities & Demigods give them about 40 Hit Dice, from being maximum level in two classes. What would happen if you got a few dozen quells into a god's inner sanctum and had them Intercess it?

[danielxcutter]

New headcanon.

I presume that doesn't involve firing those sigils as ranged attacks as a head cannon.

I theorize that gods are even MORE vulnerable to a Quell than a mortal of the same level would be.

Lemme guess, from OotS?

Anyways, I vote -0, no asterisk. No asterisk because enemies you can use Intercession on are extraordinarily rare, so even if you went to the effort of gathering enough Quells to overwhelm them there wouldn't be much point.
I feel confident saying the Quell is more interesting to expand the lore for than to play. On a related note: IIRC, the god stats in Deities & Demigods give them about 40 Hit Dice, from being maximum level in two classes. What would happen if you got a few dozen quells into a god's inner sanctum and had them Intercess it?

I suspect you'd get beaten to death anyways because most gods still have good BAB and physical stats.

[Tzardok]

I feel confident saying the Quell is more interesting to expand the lore for than to play. On a related note: IIRC, the god stats in Deities & Demigods give them about 40 Hit Dice, from being maximum level in two classes. What would happen if you got a few dozen quells into a god's inner sanctum and had them Intercess it?

60 Hit Dice. Most gods in Deities & Demigods have 20 racial hit die in addition to their 40 levels. The exceptions are Bahamut and Tiamat who have only racial hd and everyone who is an ascended mortal (except St. Cuthbert).

[Beni-Kujaku]

New headcanon.


I theorize that gods are even MORE vulnerable to a Quell than a mortal of the same level would be.


Anyways, I vote -0, no asterisk. No asterisk because enemies you can use Intercession on are extraordinarily rare, so even if you went to the effort of gathering enough Quells to overwhelm them there wouldn't be much point.
I feel confident saying the Quell is more interesting to expand the lore for than to play. On a related note: IIRC, the god stats in Deities & Demigods give them about 40 Hit Dice, from being maximum level in two classes. What would happen if you got a few dozen quells into a god's inner sanctum and had them Intercess it?

Sadly, the Snarl isn't an overweight Quell, or the Gods would have regained their abilities the instant it would have touched them. And about the gods themselves, according to what I believe is the most logical interpretation, it just wouldn't work. The quell cuts the cleric from his god (hence the possibility of atonement), so it wouldn't be able to cut the god from themselves. Also it would probably get destroy way before approaching less than 60 ft from the god, but that's another question.

[Falontani]

Sadly, the Snarl isn't an overweight Quell, or the Gods would have regained their abilities the instant it would have touched them. And about the gods themselves, according to what I believe is the most logical interpretation, it just wouldn't work. The quell cuts the cleric from his god (hence the possibility of atonement), so it wouldn't be able to cut the god from themselves. Also it would probably get destroy way before approaching less than 60 ft from the god, but that's another question.

Perhaps it separates the god from their divine ranks. Turning them mortal, and since most of the gods are way past their max age, turning mortal would kill them :P

[liquidformat]

I'm assuming the same reason a Dryad would, due to limits of where the character can operate.

I don't think it asterisk worthy myself. There's feats, spells and items that help, not to mention just sliding into the ground if you need to. Have other daylight vulnerable creatures got an asterisk before?

Yep like an umbrella, as we are on GitP OotS has already set president that an umbrella should work! Also we have not given an asterisk for daylight vulnerability before, I would assume this is because there are enough ways to bypass it unlike some of the other environment based vulnerabilities like Dryad either needing acorn of far travel or a bonsai oak tree.

I personally think a Dryad who's tree has become a Treant (Cohort) would be pretty awesome and thematic. It also makes some sense, a tree old and magical enough to spawn a Dryad should be similarly old enough and powerful/magical enough to become a Treant.

I think the quell gets LA +0 from me. It looks like it's pretty much identical to the wraith, but with Intercession replacing Constitution Drain. The ability drain seems more versatile than intercession (especially with Create Spawn attached), so the quell loses out to the wraith, in my opinion; but I still think incorporeality is a big enough deal to warrant 5 RHD on this creature. Speaking as someone who has DMed for incorporeal PCs, it does force you to rethink and restructure a lot of encounters and adventures; so I'm sticking with a conservative vote here.

And I also don't think the asterisk is necessary: since quells don't create spawn and aren't available on any summon lists, and there aren't any mechanics listed for creating them, the Coupled Intercession will be quite difficult to abuse.

Finally, I just noticed that Libris Mortis actually explicitly explains what "daylight powerlessness" means. On the table on p. 140, it says: "A powerless undead creature cannot attack, nor can it use any extraordinary or supernatural special attacks. It is treated as being slowed." So I guess we at least know how that mechanic works. That's a pretty debilitating weakness, and that might be the only reason I'd consider revising my vote down to LA -0.

Hmm, Quell actually does have the same number of HD, ability scores, and skill list as a Wraith and even has Daylight Powerlessness; also if we reference Wraith it would appear Alertness and Improved Initiative should be bonus feats which would give them the correct number of feats. Wraith was given +2 LA with an asterisk for spawning, given that comparison I think Quell with the comparatively very situational Intercession seems reasonable at +0, ok I will switch to +0 LA.

[H_H_F_F]

I stand by my original vote. Con drain on a touch attack is an excellent answer to the question "what do you do?" And the Quell has no answer for that question; at least, no answer as far as PC's go.