LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

[Metastachydium]

I personally think a Dryad who's tree has become a Treant (Cohort) would be pretty awesome and thematic. It also makes some sense, a tree old and magical enough to spawn a Dryad should be similarly old enough and powerful/magical enough to become a Treant.

(Not that awakening trees is not a thing (and an easy one at that).)

[GreatWyrmGold]

Quell probably can't beat (or even depower) deities

Probably, but imagining a swarm of them as a threat to the gods themselves is more interesting than pretty much anything related to PC quells.

I stand by my original vote. Con drain on a touch attack is an excellent answer to the question "what do you do?" And the Quell has no answer for that question; at least, no answer as far as PC's go.

Yeah, "f*k with the cleric" is only a viable combat option when you know there's always a cleric to f*k with.

[liquidformat]

(Not that awakening trees is not a thing (and an easy one at that).)

It is but Treant is hands down better than a huge animated object, it has better ability scores, actually has a skill list and feats plus a couple of cool abilities including some minionmancy.

Also Awaken is really screwy, the spell doesn't talk about how you deal with the fact that animated object has no skill list also there is the glaring problem that awakened plants have no con score nor do they have any of the protections that constructs and undead do which potentially leaves them open to some pretty nasty screwness...

[Metastachydium]

It is but Treant is hands down better than a huge animated object, it has better ability scores, actually has a skill list and feats plus a couple of cool abilities including some minionmancy.

Don't get me wrong. I like treants! It's just that 1. awakening the tree doesn't need a DM fiat and 2. giving a dryad PC a treant cohort is like, I don't know, putting crazy high-powered magical beasts on the 4th level druid list for possible animal companions.
Also, an awakened tree wouldn't lack feats either because it has an INT score.

Also Awaken is really screwy, the spell doesn't talk about how you deal with the fact that animated object has no skill list also there is the glaring problem that awakened plants have no con score

Fair enough. That said, the lack of a CON score is an obvious oversight that is easily fixed.

nor do they have any of the protections that constructs and undead do which potentially leaves them open to some pretty nasty screwness...

Well, plant immunities are the very best a living creature can get and (arguably) awakened trees get a hardness on top!

[liquidformat]

Don't get me wrong. I like treants! It's just that 1. awakening the tree doesn't need a DM fiat and 2. giving a dryad PC a treant cohort is like, I don't know, putting crazy high-powered magical beasts on the 4th level druid list for possible animal companions.
Also, an awakened tree wouldn't lack feats either because it has an INT score.

I was more thinking of a ECL 9 character with Dryad as the Race, Alternatively a Treant before even getting class levels could reasonably have a Dryad as its cohort. Either way I find the idea of a Treant and Dryad often being found associated with each other to be quite thematic.

[Thurbane]

I stand by my original vote. Con drain on a touch attack is an excellent answer to the question "what do you do?" And the Quell has no answer for that question; at least, no answer as far as PC's go.

Agreed. Some monsters simply work better as, well, monsters.

It could be an in interesting encounter to throw at a party as a one off, where a Cleric or other divine caster has been dominant, to shut them down and give the other characters a chance to shine, for instance.

Also, really liking the idea of a Dryad having an awakened tree or Treant as her cohort, so she doesn't have to rely on Acorn of Far Travel or similar. Could make an interesting NPC or PC.

I guess one advantage of an awakened tree being an animated object, is it doesn't require air, so having it ride around in a Portable Hole or similar shouldn't be an issue.

[Falontani]

The big problem with treant + dryad, is that they are a two for one deal. Kill one, and you got both.

[danielxcutter]

You know, "plants don't need to breathe" is pretty unrealistic - they don't breathe like us so strangling them is difficult at best, sure, but they do need air.

[Bavarian itP]

You know, "plants don't need to breathe" is pretty unrealistic - they don't breathe like us so strangling them is difficult at best, sure, but they do need air.

But plants need to breathe. http://dndsrd.net/monsterTypes.html#plant

[danielxcutter]

Oh, must have gotten confused. Plants do have a lot of immunities.

[liquidformat]

The big problem with treant + dryad, is that they are a two for one deal. Kill one, and you got both.

That would make them very similar to Dvati from Dragon Compendium, slightly different than the twins feature but similar. I think it is pretty interesting as a concept. The only real question I have is, is it better to be the dryad with a treant cohort or a treant with a dryad cohort?... Also too bad you can't have a petal as a familiar, I think it would make for a good one and it seems similarly powerful than a imp, Coure Eladrin, Musteval Guardinal, or mephit or perhaps slightly less.

[Thurbane]

That would make them very similar to Dvati from Dragon Compendium, slightly different than the twins feature but similar. I think it is pretty interesting as a concept. The only real question I have is, is it better to be the dryad with a treant cohort or a treant with a dryad cohort?... Also too bad you can't have a petal as a familiar, I think it would make for a good one and it seems similarly powerful than a imp, Coure Eladrin, Musteval Guardinal, or mephit or perhaps slightly less.

The DMG does give an indication that the DM is free to allow other creatures as improved familiars:

The list in the table above presents only a few possible improved familiars. Almost any creature of the same general size and power as those on the list makes a suitable familiar.

As a DM, I'd be fine with a Petal as an improved familiar; admittedly, it's a bit underpowered compared to some options.

[liquidformat]

As a DM, I'd be fine with a Petal as an improved familiar; admittedly, it's a bit underpowered compared to some options.

Yeah I think it might be a 3rd or 5th level familiar rather than a 7th

[Elkad]

Yeah I think it might be a 3rd or 5th level familiar rather than a 7th

Is it an Imp? No. But it's definitely better than a small air elemental or a Tressym or a Shocker Lizard.

It's a strong 5th. 20dex, 18cha , 60'(Good) flight, hands, voice.
Absent the Coure at 7th (which is strictly better in every way) I might put it at 7th.

[liquidformat]

Is it an Imp? No. But it's definitely better than a small air elemental or a Tressym or a Shocker Lizard.

It's a strong 5th. 20dex, 18cha , 60'(Good) flight, hands, voice.
Absent the Coure at 7th (which is strictly better in every way) I might put it at 7th.

I hadn't taken a look at it recently it is better than I remember, still they are easily outperformed by other level 7 familiars, I would say it is comparable to the small air elemental but better than a Tressym or a shock lizard.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Also Awaken is really screwy, the spell doesn't talk about how you deal with the fact that animated object has no skill list also there is the glaring problem that awakened plants have no con score nor do they have any of the protections that constructs and undead do which potentially leaves them open to some pretty nasty screwness...

checks the awaken spell
Huh, it turns trees into animated objects. That's odd.

[Debatra]

Okay, it's probably time to call it by the time we start getting this far off-topic. Especially since it was a near-unanimous -0. Raiment coming up.

[Debatra]

Raiment

Size & Type: Small Undead
Space/Reach: 5'/5'
HD: 3
Speed: 20'
Ability Scores: Str +6, Dex +4, Con -, Int -, Wis +2, Cha -4 - Net +8, one penalty
Natural Armor: 1
Natural Weapons: Two Primary Coat Sleeves (1d2)
Skill List: N/A
Body Shape: A set of clothing. (Maybe gloves could be hands?)
Speech (Languages): No
CR: 1
WotC LA: -
Our LA: +0

In some fiction, whatever you were wearing when you died is what you're stuck with in the afterlife. This is a somewhat extreme version of this, as your spirit possesses your clothes instead.

60' of Blindsight and DR 5/magic cap off a somewhat decent chassis for a low-level creature, though once again we have a Small-sized grapple-focused monster. It's Improved Grab works on creatures up to Large size though, and it gets an untyped +4 to grapple checks that puts it back on par with its Medium competition. It can also Constrict for 1d2+Str while also preventing its victim from speaking.

And that's it. For those wondering why this thing has D8 HD, that was errata'd. Also noteworthy is that they are not explicitly blind, so a pair of spectacles may potentially serve as "eyes".

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Clearly deserving of a high LA, due to easy access to the d2 Crusader build.

I want to like this, and 3RHD should have been low enough to make that possible... but it's really not bringing much to the table outside of decent strength and 60ft blindsight. The latter is actually quite hard to get on a low-level PC, requiring either an expensive item that also makes you blind while using it, being a mid-level initiator and taking the relevant stance (Hearing the Air?), or being able to Wildshape into a Dire Bat and taking one of the [Wild] feats (note that Dire Bats are large, so Wildshape Rangers can't qualify). But hard to get doesn't necessarily mean fantastic, and I don't know if it's enough to push the Raiment to +0.

No vote for now.

[Troacctid]

I think it depends on whether you handle mindlessness by giving it an Int score or by ignoring the mindlessness. In the former case, 3 HD is an entirely reasonable price for the creature type and the chassis, and I'd give it +0 (it's quite competitive against three levels in a martial class). In the latter case, though, you don't gain feats for leveling up, and that's enough to push it down to -0.

[Caelestion]

Given that we're about making things playable, I would handwave the mindlessness, but we've already had this discussion before.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Why is it small? Are halflings the only ones who let their clothes in suspicious graveyards? Also "It's attacking us with its sleeves, run for your life!" is something nobody should ever have to utter in a D&D game.

Really, the rating depends on how that body functions. If you can get body slots for magic items and prehensile hands (sleeves?), then 3 RHD for undead immunity, RD 5/magic and blindsight (why the Baator does it have darkvision if it has blindsight on the same range?), plus decent ability scores is... okay I guess. If any of these does not apply, then there is no reason to take it in my opinion.

So, might be half-decent in the best case scenario and very bad otherwise. I vote LA -0 for the Raiment.

I think it depends on whether you handle mindlessness by giving it an Int score or by ignoring the mindlessness. In the former case, 3 HD is an entirely reasonable price for the creature type and the chassis, and I'd give it +0 (it's quite competitive against three levels in a martial class). In the latter case, though, you don't gain feats for leveling up, and that's enough to push it down to -0.

We've already talked about it, mindless creatures somehow got an Int score. In the case of the Raiment, it probably means Awaken Undead. However, that begs the question of who was the original owner of the clothes whose soul haunts them, since it will be a limiting factor for the intelligence from AU. Probably not important. Halflings have 10 int anyway.

[danielxcutter]

...Is it just the art or can this thing fly?

[H_H_F_F]

"Small grappler" is not a great chasis, unless you're going for binding Zagan, and no-con melee is difficult with such a low natural armor score. Then again, 3 RHD isn't that bad, and blindsight 60 is very good. I'm leaning towards -0, but I'm not a 100% sold on it just yet.

[danielxcutter]

...Who’s Zagan?

[H_H_F_F]

...Who’s Zagan?

Zagan is the Duke of Disappointment, a vestige for binders from the Tome of Magic. One of the benefits he grants is counting as large for grappling purposes, which is very useful for small and smaller grapplers.

[Debatra]

(why the Baator does it have darkvision if it has blindsight on the same range?)

To be fair, it's not even the only thing in this book to have that. And even having 60' Darkvision listed is redundant because that's something all undead have anyway.

...Is it just the art or can this thing fly?

Nope. Just the art.

[danielxcutter]

Zagan is the Duke of Disappointment, a vestige for binders from the Tome of Magic. One of the benefits he grants is counting as large for grappling purposes, which is very useful for small and smaller grapplers.

...Don’t most Small beings have Str penalties anyways?

To be fair, it's not even the only thing in this book to have that. And even having 60' Darkvision listed is redundant because that's something all undead have anyway.

I wonder why they didn’t just list “undead traits” and call it a day.

Nope. Just the art.

Bummer. Not even an Air Walk-esque effect?

[H_H_F_F]

...Don’t most Small beings have Str penalties anyways?

Well, yes, which is why you haven't heard of Zagan as some optimization trick. But the Raiment has good Strength and is supposed to be a grappler, which is why I mentioned Zagan. I also didn't say they should go for binder, only that small grappling is very weak without him.

[Tzardok]

I wonder why they didn’t just list “undead traits” and call it a day.

For the same reason it's mentioned in addition to elemental traits, or dragon traits, or plant traits. Or why Blindsight is mentioned in addition to ooze traits. Sensory abilities seem to be thought of as important.