LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

[GreatWyrmGold]

Okay, it's probably time to call it by the time we start getting this far off-topic.

Unless we get on a really interesting topic. But that wasn't.

...Is it just the art or can this thing fly?

It's not flying, it's walking barefoot.

Why is it small? Are halflings the only ones who let their clothes in suspicious graveyards?

In my experience, clothes are smaller than whoever wears them.

Really, the rating depends on how that body functions.

Jokes aside, this is an important point.

Zagan is the Duke of Disappointment, a vestige for binders from the Tome of Magic. One of the benefits he grants is counting as large for grappling purposes, which is very useful for small and smaller grapplers.

And this presumably stacks with the raiment's untyped +4 grapple bonus, making it as good a grappler as a Huge creature (with 16 Strength).
Disappointingly, it's a 6th-level vestige. You need to put at least a dozen Binder levels into a build to get it, because Improved Bind Vestige only gives up to 3rd-level vestiges. (Note to self: Two or three feats can give you a low-level vestige.) That costs you three BAB relative to a full-BAB class, which means you only gain +5 to grapple, and I'm sure you can do better with straight Fighter and picking up every grappling-related feat. If only this build could work...


Anyways, the only notable thing about the Raiment (aside from its unique Coat Sleeves attacks) is its grappling abilities. Compared to a typical 3rd-level human warrior, it will have better Strength and its innate bonus counters its small size, but its BAB is two lower, so it barely comes out ahead (aside from a +1 here and there, Improved Grab, and technically-there constriction). Its AC will also be better, due to size, Dexterity, and the natural armor provided by...clothes? Blindsight and DR are also pretty nice, and its lack of a Constitution is balanced out by larger Hit Dice, because I'm comparing the Raiment to a third-level human warrior.
The Raiment loses out on three levels of class features and possibly its ability to use some/all equipment, in exchange for a handful of perks. They're not useless perks, and it's nice to get them at such a low level. I'm inclined to call the Raiment -0 even if it can use equipment. (And if it can't, there's no point, both because the character would be incredibly weak and because half the fun of a Raiment is having a coat wear a coat.)

This wouldn't affect the judgement, but can Raiments pretend to be a pile of ordinary clothing? Like, to sneak into a castle via laundry or something? What happens if someone puts on a Raiment? What happens if someone puts on part of a Raiment?

[Beni-Kujaku]

This wouldn't affect the judgement, but can Raiments pretend to be a pile of ordinary clothing? Like, to sneak into a castle via laundry or something? What happens if someone puts on a Raiment? What happens if someone puts on part of a Raiment?

"A raiment sometimes lies quiescent, like a pile of cast-off rags, attacking only when its victims are close enough to surprise."
That is surprisingly good tactics for a mindless monster.

[danielxcutter]

I find it amusing how many undead creatures you can make from one body.

Does this thing get bigger with HD? Maybe I could fluff that as animated giant clothes or something.

[H_H_F_F]

And this presumably stacks with the raiment's untyped +4 grapple bonus, making it as good a grappler as a Huge creature (with 16 Strength).
Disappointingly, it's a 6th-level vestige. You need to put at least a dozen Binder levels into a build to get it, because Improved Bind Vestige only gives up to 3rd-level vestiges. (Note to self: Two or three feats can give you a low-level vestige.) That costs you three BAB relative to a full-BAB class, which means you only gain +5 to grapple, and I'm sure you can do better with straight Fighter and picking up every grappling-related feat. If only this build could work...

You could salvage some BaB by taking improved binding, or knight of the sacred seal. I know that because I built a Zagan grappler for the Tattooed Monk round of Iron Chef.

To my understanding, bind vestige can only give the abilities listed in the tables, which aren't as exciting.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I find it amusing how many undead creatures you can make from one body.

Does this thing get bigger with HD? Maybe I could fluff that as animated giant clothes or something.

Forsaken shell for the skin, Blood amniote for the blood, Crawling Claw with the hand, Ghost with the soul, a Flaming Skull with the skull, a skeleton with the skeleton, the brain in a jar, a Dream Vestige from the thoughts (wtf), a skulking cyst with the flesh and visceras, a tomb mote with the dirt in which they are entombed (!), a Vitreous drinker with the eyes (if you want to optimize killing lots of people), and Raiment for the clothes. Impressive value.

Sadly it doesn't get bigger, which I found weird but okay.


By the way, GreatWyrmGold, there are other undeads which are not supposed to be in one piece, like a skeleton, who doesn't have joints and still holds together by the sheer negative energy. I'd say if someone wore the Raiment, it would still be animated and try to kill the one who wears it, but that it would be as difficult to take only one part of the Raiment as it would to take one bone from a skeleton, that is to say, you would have to rip the two clothes apart, eventually dealing enough damage to the Raiment to kill it.

[danielxcutter]

Forsaken shell for the skin, Blood amniote for the blood, Crawling Claw with the hand, Ghost with the soul, a Flaming Skull with the skull, a skeleton with the skeleton, the brain in a jar, a Dream Vestige from the thoughts (wtf), a skulking cyst with the flesh and visceras, a tomb mote with the dirt in which they are entombed (!), a Vitreous drinker with the eyes (if you want to optimize killing lots of people), and Raiment for the clothes. Impressive value.

You probably need the entire skeleton, so no Flaming Skull or Crawling Claws, Vitreous Drinkers don't just need eyes, and I'm pretty sure one person isn't enough to make a Dream Vestige, but that's still what, eight creatures?

Sadly it doesn't get bigger, which I found weird but okay.

Well, it'd be weird for undead clothes to get bigger with age I guess.

By the way, GreatWyrmGold, there are other undeads which are not supposed to be in one piece, like a skeleton, who doesn't have joints and still holds together by the sheer negative energy. I'd say if someone wore the Raiment, it would still be animated and try to kill the one who wears it, but that it would be as difficult to take only one part of the Raiment as it would to take one bone from a skeleton, that is to say, you would have to rip the two clothes apart, eventually dealing enough damage to the Raiment to kill it.

Sounds about right.

[Troacctid]

"Small grappler" is not a great chasis, unless you're going for binding Zagan, and no-con melee is difficult with such a low natural armor score. Then again, 3 RHD isn't that bad, and blindsight 60 is very good. I'm leaning towards -0, but I'm not a 100% sold on it just yet.

Anyways, the only notable thing about the Raiment (aside from its unique Coat Sleeves attacks) is its grappling abilities. Compared to a typical 3rd-level human warrior, it will have better Strength and its innate bonus counters its small size, but its BAB is two lower, so it barely comes out ahead (aside from a +1 here and there, Improved Grab, and technically-there constriction). Its AC will also be better, due to size, Dexterity, and the natural armor provided by...clothes? Blindsight and DR are also pretty nice, and its lack of a Constitution is balanced out by larger Hit Dice, because I'm comparing the Raiment to a third-level human warrior.
The Raiment loses out on three levels of class features and possibly its ability to use some/all equipment, in exchange for a handful of perks. They're not useless perks, and it's nice to get them at such a low level. I'm inclined to call the Raiment -0 even if it can use equipment. (And if it can't, there's no point, both because the character would be incredibly weak and because half the fun of a Raiment is having a coat wear a coat.)

The Strength bonus easily makes up for the lost BAB (cf. hulking hurler), but then you also get bonuses to Wis and Dex, plus blindsight, undead immunities (which, again, I keep beating this drum, but undead immunities are kind of absurd), DR, and the grapple bonuses. That's all well worth 3 levels in my book. Compare that with monk. It's not even close. Or fighter—how many bonus feats are these abilities worth? At least, like, five? The fighter only gets two bonus feats in three levels. You can dismiss it as "a handful of perks" but the fact is, no base class in the game gets anything like this kind of perks in only three levels. Dread necromancers don't get undead immunities until way late in the game. Incarnates are the only class that can get DR like this, and they have to spend their entire essentia supply to do it. Certain spellcasters can get effects similar to blindsight, but only for a very short time at the cost of daily resources.

IMO the only way you can put something like the raiment at less than +0 is if you think being better than lower-tier base classes still makes you underpowered. If this thing has 10 Int, then it dunks all over the monk without even really trying (and then probably takes monk levels for good measure). Imagine a three-level prestige class that gave you this package—every martial would be lining up to pay a feat tax for it. It's like Warshaper+. Frankly, I'm this close to talking myself into a +1.

[danielxcutter]

If it nuked my Con score I'd certainly think twice(and probably not bother with it anyways), especially since you have neither a natural armor bonus nor a DR score worth jack.

[Tzardok]

Well, it'd be weird for undead clothes to get bigger with age I guess.

Additional hit die don't necessarily mean an older version. Golems for example don't age at all.

[Troacctid]

If it nuked my Con score I'd certainly think twice(and probably not bother with it anyways), especially since you have neither a natural armor bonus nor a DR score worth jack.

How many base classes have a natural armor bonus + DR worth jack? I didn't realize dragonfire adept was our primary point of comparison here.

It's essentially a -2 to Con. That's not a big deal. Are we giving elf a -0 LA? Just take Improved Toughness if you're that worried about it. You're so far ahead of other martials, spending an extra feat isn't going to put you meaningfully behind them.

[Remuko]

Its CR is 1 and its HD is 3. Easy -0. There's no way this thing is equal to a lvl 3 PC much less a lvl 4. I think its even strictly worse than a level 2. Hell even with 1 HD and 0 LA I'd still probably almost never play it.

[Troacctid]

Its CR is 1 and its HD is 3. Easy -0. There's no way this thing is equal to a lvl 3 PC much less a lvl 4. I think its even strictly worse than a level 2. Hell even with 1 HD and 0 LA I'd still probably almost never play it.

Actually, according to the rules for improving monsters, making it a PC would increase its CR to 3: +1 for using a PC stat array instead of all 10s and 11s, and another +1 for giving it feats.

[H_H_F_F]

How many base classes have a natural armor bonus + DR worth jack? I didn't realize dragonfire adept was our primary point of comparison here.

It's essentially a -2 to Con. That's not a big deal. Are we giving elf a -0 LA? Just take Improved Toughness if you're that worried about it. You're so far ahead of other martials, spending an extra feat isn't going to put you meaningfully behind them.

How is "con: -" equivalent at all to a -2 on a martial? Con is almost universally the second priority, and boosted through items throughout one's career. Any martial with less than 14 con at the base is probably more than slightly MAD, and any martial not boosting it through items is simply, well, mad.

I feel like we've had this arguement during necromental, so I'll keep it short: undead immunities are very good, same for blindsight. Losing con is very tough, and a huge deal, especially so for melees. You better have good defensive abilities or huge DR/NA if you want to go to melee as an undead. Being small is a downside as well.

[Troacctid]

How is "con: -" equivalent at all to a -2 on a martial? Con is almost universally the second priority, and boosted through items throughout one's career. Any martial with less than 14 con at the base is probably more than slightly MAD, and any martial not boosting it through items is simply, well, mad.

Because penalties chew up more of your point buy than fixed values. While a -4 would be more likely to get you to the same value, it would only do so by taking away points from your other stats, while the undead with a fixed +0 gets to buy up from 16 to 18 Str to make up for it. So, -2 is a closer approximation of the actual cost.

I feel like we've had this arguement during necromental, so I'll keep it short: undead immunities are very good, same for blindsight. Losing con is very tough, and a huge deal, especially so for melees. You better have good defensive abilities or huge DR/NA if you want to go to melee as an undead. Being small is a downside as well.

Small size is upside, not downside. The racial ability here lets you ignore the size penalty to grapple while keeping size bonuses to hit and AC.

Like I said, just take Improved Toughness. There's a million ways to boost HP.

[H_H_F_F]

Small size is upside, not downside. The racial ability here lets you ignore the size penalty to grapple while keeping size bonuses to hit and AC.

Like I said, just take Improved Toughness. There's a million ways to boost HP.

Small size means you're also far easier to trip/bull rush. Not a + in my eyes for a melee character.

I don't know of many ways to boost HP, but I believe you have more knowledge and experience than I. All I see you mention is improved toughness - a feat that could be replicated by a cery cheap item. You'd still fall significantly behind later on, as otger people will have +4/6 con items, and perhaps inherent boosts. You'd be avle to invest more in Str, sure, but you'd have an effective baseline of 10 Con (12 with the feat) throughout your career. A very steep price to pay, IMO. I almost never see necropolitan in discussion of brutes, and I think for a good reason.

[Efrate]

-0. Its okay, but small grappler is bad, itemization is ??? which is a real issue, and it does not really advance anywhere well. You compare poorly to any grapple PC, and grapple PCs are not great in general, and only for a few levels.

[GreatWyrmGold]

By the way, GreatWyrmGold, there are other undeads which are not supposed to be in one piece, like a skeleton, who doesn't have joints and still holds together by the sheer negative energy. I'd say if someone wore the Raiment, it would still be animated and try to kill the one who wears it, but that it would be as difficult to take only one part of the Raiment as it would to take one bone from a skeleton, that is to say, you would have to rip the two clothes apart, eventually dealing enough damage to the Raiment to kill it.

That's probably the most practical way to rule it, and one which makes plenty of sense in what passes for D&D lore, but also the most boring.

The Strength bonus easily makes up for the lost BAB (cf. hulking hurler), but then you also get bonuses to Wis and Dex, plus blindsight, undead immunities (which, again, I keep beating this drum, but undead immunities are kind of absurd), DR, and the grapple bonuses. That's all well worth 3 levels in my book.

In order:
1. Strength is alright. Makes up for the lost BAB, but not much else.
2. Wisdom and Dexterity bonuses are nice, but they only amount to some +1's and +2's in places perpendicular to your grappling focus.
3. Blindsight is neat, but situational.
4. Undead immunities are pretty cool, but they come with a side of not having a Constitution, which as HHFF points out is a pretty big deal for anyone who cares about hit points.
5. DR is good against relatively weak creatures. But it's only five and doesn't work against magic weapons or a good number of mid/high-level monsters (and heck, some low-level ones), so it has a serious shelf life.
6. The Grapple bonus precisely cancels out the penalty for being Small. That's not really a bonus so much as a refund.

So to summarize: A handful of +1's and +2's (+3's for Strength-based things other than melee attacks, such as damage and...I guess Jump checks); damage reduction; and a bunch of abilities that are situational on their own but will consistently provide some benefit most of the time. (No need to worry about a scorpion's poison, but the sting still deals damage.) In exchange, you lose your Constitution score, any function in social encounters, and possibly item use. (Can you wear a headband on your hat? Can you hold a sword in your sleeve? Can your boots wear boots?)

Like I said, just take Improved Toughness. There's a million ways to boost HP.

And non-undead can take every one. Heck, they can take more, because some of those million ways are based around boosting Constitution. Either undead are more fragile, or they need to invest more in being not-fragile (and hence less in other aspects). This isn't trivial, especially if you're going to be fighting in melee, which is the only place most of the Raiment's strengths are any use at all.

Compare a 4th-level human fighter to a Raiment 3/Fighter 1. If the fighter has only 14 Constitution, she has ~36 hit points to the raiment's ~33—and the raiment is only so close because it started with d12's. (A 4th-level barbarian would have at least 40 hit points, compared to a raiment-barian's ~34.) The distance will grow with time, especially once the living start investing in e.g. periapts of health. At 9th level, for instance, the difference is 82 to 58 (91 to 58 with a periapt, 82 to 67 with Improved Toughness, 91 to 67 with both).

The living adventurer's hit points will always outpace the undead's unless the undead spends a lot of its build resources on pure HP, a problem which gets worse as they level up—especially since that piddly 5 DR is going to be reducing enemy damage by less and less every level. Even if the raiment is tough enough at 3rd level, it will lose that edge as it levels up.


The balance point for this thread is ~Tier 3, not Tier 5. But for simplicity, let's look at the Tier 4 barbarian. The barbarian has significantly more hit points than the Raiment even at level 3; the barbarian is also faster, can rage, gets more skills, and doesn't have any of the innate downsides of being a floating laundry heap. Maybe you could argue that the Raiment's numbers and immunities are equal to that? Gets a lot harder once you start looking at tier 3 classes. Gets a lot harder once you start looking past 3rd level.

[Tzardok]

I imagine a raiment wearing magic items simply as replacing the ones it's made from.

[Thurbane]

I've often pondered how Awaken Undead would work with things like the Raiment, or other undead that weren't a specified creature type previously.

Anyhow...

Raiment

• Small undead.
• 3 RHD (d12 hp, poot BAB, one good save, 4 skill points/"level" [once you get an Int score])
• 20 ft speed.
• +1 natural AC.
• 2 "coat sleeves" 1d2.
• Constrict: 1d2 damage, stops creature from speaking, limited to large or smaller foes. Could make it quite useful against casters.
• Improved grab: standard fare. As others have said, grapple is hampered by a small size.
• Blindsight 60 ft., darkvision 60 ft.: solid senses.
• DR 5/magic.
• Mindless: again, unsure why the book has to have this as a quality, when it's a standard rule for all Int -- creatures.
• Undead traits.
• Str +6, Dex +4, Con --, Int --, Wis +2, Cha -4: net +8, two non-abilities. Surprisingly good Str for a small creature. As usual, we assume some way to get an Int score to be playable.
• No racial skills - so even once you have an Int score, your first 3 HD worth of skills will all be cross-classed.

Quite non-standard body type, and can't speak. You're likely to have a few gear related issues (can those sleeves wield a weapon?), and also some class progression issues. I guess the weapon issue isn't so bad if you want to concentrate on grappling. On the plus side, you shouldn't have the same issues that a mouldering-corpse type undead would have in a city - you can look just like a pile of clothes, after all.

So what's the progression here? Martial adept? Swordsage maybe? Being a melee type with no Con modifier, and only your first 3 HD being d12, is less than ideal. I'd say Cleric or Druid, if you can find some way around verbal components. As mentioned, Binder might be decent, but that hit to Cha hurts for binding checks.

[edit] If the DM lets you have a throat slot for magic items, Amulet of Freedom of Speech should allow you to be caster without too many issues. [/edit]

Tough one to call: my initial instinct was -0, but reading what some others have written, I guess I could settle on LA +0 for my vote.

[Morphic tide]

-0. Its okay, but small grappler is bad, itemization is ??? which is a real issue, and it does not really advance anywhere well. You compare poorly to any grapple PC, and grapple PCs are not great in general, and only for a few levels.

It explicitly has the ability to grapple Large creatures, so they have the same hard limit, and get an advantage on the rolls (+3 from Strength, untyped +4 negating Small size, lose 1.5 BAB), and itemization is... Awkward, admittedly, but not much of a problem. For progression, anything that gives attack modifiers will work, with Swordsage and Psychic Warrior probably being the main subjects as both are Wisdom-based and give solid benefits to being a Grappler. Though ironically it's Shadow Hand and Tiger Claw you want, as Setting Sun doesn't give anything to keep Grappling oversized targets.

My own vote is LA +0, as the thing has plenty of ability score bonus to leverage for something, being more raw numbers than the vast majority of Martials get out of their last three levels. And taking 5 damage off any happenstance non-magic attacks is going to do a decent bit for your survivability alongside the Dex+NA shift, making you swingy but not hopeless in the front, and you don't technically need to be a true frontliner.

Seriously, even against PsyWar, what's supposed to be a supremely level-sensitive frontliner, you cap out at losing two feats, three Powers, and 14 PP (Practiced Manifester tax, +2 Wis turns into +10 PP at ML 20), in exchange for +3 damage per hit, +1 to attack rolls, +3 to AC, +1 to save DCs, and the benefits of your two innate Natural Attacks. While leveling, you're one Power Level behind, but a lot of common Powers are doing stuff you get innately so that's pretty readily a wash eating away more at your PP "disadvantage", so it comes down to what upsides that extra Power Level are giving. Which, in the case of the PsyWar, is often not critical since they're basically all about buffs.

We're supposed to save LA -0 for stuff that's outright hard to have function, not stuff that's just somewhat worse than a more normal race. And it doesn't take much in the way of ability scores to make that happen. Having literally half the health of a more typical front-line character only matters if you're expected to take that much in a single fight.

[Troacctid]

We're supposed to save LA -0 for stuff that's outright hard to have function, not stuff that's just somewhat worse than a more normal race. And it doesn't take much in the way of ability scores to make that happen. Having literally half the health of a more typical front-line character only matters if you're expected to take that much in a single fight.

I think this thread has been far too liberal with the -0s on a lot of monsters. No joke, I think you could put elf in this thread and it would be getting -0 votes saying things like "That Con penalty, though," and "What does it even do?"

[Thurbane]

Functionally, there isn't that much of a difference in a -0 and +0 rating. You're still playing with no level adjustment in either case.

My understanding was that -0 is just considered substantially subpar to a standard LA +0 race, or in the case of RHD, worse than a tier 4 character with the same number of levels as RHD.

There's a few monsters we have pegged as LA -0 that I would have a go at playing.

[danielxcutter]

I think this thread has been far too liberal with the -0s on a lot of monsters. No joke, I think you could put elf in this thread and it would be getting -0 votes saying things like "That Con penalty, though," and "What does it even do?"

Elves only get Con penalties, they don’t lose the entire stat. You can always assign more points there, and they can still use the other options available to getting more hit points.

Undead basically have Improved Toughness and Amulet of Tears, and that’s it.

[Debatra]

We're supposed to save LA -0 for stuff that's outright hard to have function, not stuff that's just somewhat worse than a more normal race. And it doesn't take much in the way of ability scores to make that happen. Having literally half the health of a more typical front-line character only matters if you're expected to take that much in a single fight.

I think this thread has been far too liberal with the -0s on a lot of monsters. No joke, I think you could put elf in this thread and it would be getting -0 votes saying things like "That Con penalty, though," and "What does it even do?"

Some monsters and templates may have a LA of '-0'. In such a case, we technically recommend a LA of +0, but the resulting monster will probably be weaker than a comparable PC of the same ECL. Consider asking your DM to strengthen the monster somehow to make it more appropriate as a PC. At lower optimization levels, creatures with this LA may be more balanced: use your own discretion.

The balance point for this thread is ~Tier 3, not Tier 5. But for simplicity, let's look at the Tier 4 barbarian. The barbarian has significantly more hit points than the Raiment even at level 3; the barbarian is also faster, can rage, gets more skills, and doesn't have any of the innate downsides of being a floating laundry heap. Maybe you could argue that the Raiment's numbers and immunities are equal to that? Gets a lot harder once you start looking at tier 3 classes. Gets a lot harder once you start looking past 3rd level.

The comparison point is "the most similar class from tier 1 to 4". So a monster that lends itself to being a martial should probably be compared to 3-4. In this case, since the Raiment is focused on grappling and just plain won't be doing much else in melee (unless it can indeed use weapons, which as discussed is unclear), Tier 4 is probably more appropriate. Pretty good at doing one specific thing, but not much/anything else. (Then again, that one specific thing is grappling, so...)

[Blue Jay]

In my mind, the raiment is a bit under par, in terms of numbers. Small size is an overall hindrance for the grappler niche, partially mitigated by the racial grapple bonus. And those natural attacks are really pathetic, but at least it does get two of them. On the other hand, undead immunities are still amazing, and blindsight is really useful.

Personally, I feel like this monster was supposed to have a fly speed, or at least some kind of "float" mechanic that lets it ignore difficult terrain; but that's neither here nor there.

I'm curious why the designers decided to spell out "Mindlessness" as a separate feature, when they didn't do that for previous mindless monsters in this book. I'm also not sure why it's listed as having +5 on grapple checks. I only get +4 (+1 BAB, +3 Str, +4 racial, -4 Small size).

I'm going to vote LA +0 for the raiment. It's not powerful, but it isn't a complete wash; and 3 HD isn't too big a price to pay. I think you could potentially do a few things with it.

[Remuko]

Actually, according to the rules for improving monsters, making it a PC would increase its CR to 3: +1 for using a PC stat array instead of all 10s and 11s, and another +1 for giving it feats.

i wasnt suggesting it based on any rules in the books, but from experiences from the past 9 LA assignment threads. Creatures statblock CR vs their HD more often than not lines up with where (i believe) they should be. Creatures with CRs above HD are usually LA+ #'s any one with CR lower than HD has never been better than +0 that I remember at least (we've done a lot of monsters so I don't remember nearly all of them).

[Thurbane]

I'm curious why the designers decided to spell out "Mindlessness" as a separate feature, when they didn't do that for previous mindless monsters in this book.

Its weird and inconsistent.

Mindless is listed as a special quality for the Hulking Corpse and Raiment, yet not for the Blood Amniote, Bloodmote Cloud, Bone Rat Swarm, Corpse Rat Swarm or Revived Fossil...

Maybe the intent was that creatures with the Mindless quality could not be Awakened, but that's pure speculation.

[Debatra]

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[Elkad]

Can someone else in the party wear the Raiment character, and if so, how can we exploit this?

It'd be great for sneaking into the Royal Ball, or "hanging out" in the Senate Cloakroom, but what else can we do? Does the DR apply to the guy wearing it? Can the Raiment ride the person? Can the person ride the Raiment (it's got +6 str, so it won't have a problem with the weight on any normal small creature). Can they make assisted grapple checks together? Can I be a straightjacket instead of a regular cloak, so I can sleeve-slap people while the Monk inside me kicks them?

I still can't get to +0 though. Not with 3HD.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Can someone else in the party wear the Raiment character, and if so, how can we exploit this?

It'd be great for sneaking into the Royal Ball, or "hanging out" in the Senate Cloakroom, but what else can we do? Does the DR apply to the guy wearing it? Can the Raiment ride the person? Can the person ride the Raiment (it's got +6 str, so it won't have a problem with the weight on any normal small creature). Can they make assisted grapple checks together? Can I be a straightjacket instead of a regular cloak, so I can sleeve-slap people while the Monk inside me kicks them?

I still can't get to +0 though. Not with 3HD.

Have you ever tried three-legged race? It is pretty hard to synchronize with your partner with one leg attached. So with the whole body? If the raiment doesn't move immediately to follow the host's movements‚ it will be nothing but a hindrance for anything‚ especially to fight. I think I would rule that as being constantly grappled‚ but automatically passing grapple checks‚ since both are cooperative. So you could both move half your speed and have a semi-normal movement‚ make joined Grapples pretty easily and both attack with a light weapon an opponent that you grappled. I... Guess there could be some use‚ with the right feats‚ or by having several Raiments on top of each other to get higher speed‚ but really that's unoptimal.