LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

[Beni-Kujaku]

How dare you use the dome!? Down with Democracy, Anarchy will rule! All hail the Helix!!


For the revived fossil, this is the same as skeleton, but everything better, and -4 Dex. The stronger the base creature, the weaker the result, since it loses almost everything for negligible advantages. For a medium creature with no HD, it's +12 NA, two 2d6 claws, 20 (!) bonus hit points, clearly offsetting the loss of HP due to LA, -2 Dex, fixed 10 Wis, fixed 1 Cha, Undead, Combat Reflexes, and DR 10/Adam.

Compared to skeleton: +10 NA, +20 HP, claws +3 size categories, -4 Dex, and DR 10/Adam instead of 5/Bludg (the feats are roughly equivalent in power). That is a lot for +1 LA. I think the revived fossil would be a strong +2 or a weak +3, on a Medium humanoid with no HD (the best choice, since anything bigger will generally have HD or LA). Since it will be a bit weaker or almost anything else, I'm gonna go with LA +2 for the revived fossil. Rapidly going to +1 or even +0 around 6 to 10 HD.


Edit: I just saw the "one claw per hand". That is pretty rare. An anthropomorphic giant octopus would be busted with it. I mean, even more busted.

[Morphic tide]

My biggest issue with raiment is advancement - barbarians, fighters, and monks can be built to be something besides grapplers, but if you're playing a raiment, it's because you wanna be a grappler. And grappling sucks to specialize in, basically no matter how much effort you put into being good at it.

Eh, a lot of the useful Powers that PsyWar brings are general melee stuff in their use (Expansion may no longer give you Large upsides, but it does negate any Small penalties, which overshoots for grappling), and they're ironically sub-par with attack volume since their enhancements only affect one natural weapon and target their person. And also you do get good high-level Grapplers, in the form of exotic Constrict-alikes on mid-high level monsers, hence giving the Boneyard +0 as a 17th-level monster. But if you aren't a particularly murderous monster-grappler, then it does suffer at dealing with high-level beatstucks.

Fortunately, any progression in applicable t3 classes will have long acquired the spare resources to have something useful outside Grappling, and even so not all high-level monsters ready for melee are Gargantuan+ with over 40 Strength. The CR 20 Pit Fiend is only Large with +35 Grapple, while a Raiment with 17 levels of Psywar will have +13 BAB, +8 from Expansion making them Large, +2 from that same Expansion giving +4 Strength, +3 from their racial Strength, +3 from their +6 item, +4 from Improved Grapple, probably +4 from 18 character Strength, another +2 from ASIs, for +39 before Grip of Iron can give up to +12 on an Immediate Action and any further feats or items. So from this bottom-level optimization it looks to be able to have a coinflip chance of Grappling an Old Red Dragon at a cost of 24PP, and can attempt to Grapple anything that isn't Colossal. Need another +12 to get at a Red Wyrm.

...Looking over a handbook I finally found, being an Undead with a horrible Charisma penalty is a pretty big disadvantage for maximum Grapple bonus from the MoI losses, but you can still get a further +8 for 7 rounds 3/day on a pair of gloves and +4 from an Exotic weapon out of Sandstorm which covers the needed extra to effectively guarantee that Old Red Dragon gets pinned and make the Wyrm a coin-flip, so it's not like you've lost the optimization room required to work, it's just there's some top-level targets you have an uncomfortable chance of failing at and Colossals are a no-go without a source of a third size bump. Note that this build has dedicated one item slot, one sleeve, 3 feats, and a Power to Grappling, and it ends up taking Gargantuan monsters with over 40 Strength to make you question your odds. Anything but the absolute most massive beatsticks in the game are getting Pinned even without the Incarnum stock of benefits. There's plenty more quality of life properties you could get to have more qualitative advantages in Grappling, but at this point the other 16 Powers of your career can pretty much entirely go to standard PsyWar weapon use to beef up the Exotic weapon that'll probably be doing most of the damage. (also you can spend a feat on getting an Astral Construct to use as a backup-beast)

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As for Revived Fossil, remember that you need to have a skeleton, so no Octopus. As the upsides are entirely size-based, we may wish to separate the LA somewhat, but I'll most immediately concur with LA +2.

[Beni-Kujaku]

... and Colossals are a no-go without a source of a third size bump.

A fourth size bump. You need to go from Small to Gargantuan, since the Raiment's ability specifically only works on Large or Smaller, so you'll have to rely on normal Grappling rules (that also means, unfortunately, that with that wording, you lose your Improved Grab on Huge or larger opponents, you keep the +4 though)

[Thurbane]

So looks like we gave Skeleton +1/+0/-0, depending on the base creature?

Revived Fossil

• Type change to undead (augmented, and may or mat not retain some subtypes).
• HD: lose HD "gained from experience" (so class levels, I guess), all remaining HD become d12s.
• Bonus HP based on size, similar to a construct (10 for small, 20 for medium).
• BAB for RHD becomes poor.
• Saves for RHD become poor Fort, poor Ref and good Will.
• Lose fly speed if you had wings.
• Change to natural AC of between +6 and +30, depending on size. +9 for small, +12 for medium.
• Retain all natural (except fleshy one like tentacles) and manufactured weapon attacks; as noted, creatures with hands gain one claw attack per hand.
• Lose all special attacks.
• Lost most special qualities, except those that improve melee or ranged attacks.
• DR 10/adamantine.
• Immune to cold.
• -2 Dex, COn --, Int --, Wis = 10, Cha = 1.
• No skills.
• Lose all feats, gain Combat Reflexes as bonus feat (off bonus feat for a creature with a Dex penalty, IMHO).

Not sure how to feel about this one. Definitely superior to Skeleton, but unsure how to vote at the moment. I might wait a little to vote.

With the subtype, I assume if you keep the Fire subtype, you would be immune to both fire and cold damage?

IN the meantime, I'll be having a think how to use this on an encounter...need to find some creatures with plenty of hands...

[Morphic tide]

A fourth size bump. You need to go from Small to Gargantuan, since the Raiment's ability specifically only works on Large or Smaller, so you'll have to rely on normal Grappling rules (that also means, unfortunately, that with that wording, you lose your Improved Grab on Huge or larger opponents, you keep the +4 though)

...Ah, misread, it's "two or more", not "more than two". Still, things apparently need to exceed +43 Grapple to have any shot of beating you when you push, and Gargantuan monsters remain a stark rarity exiled to the top-most degrees of beatstick. What I've mentioned is a fairly minor investment to have a startlingly reliable way of shutting down anything but the most spectacular of beef. And you can always grab Combat Transformation for +7 BAB if you need to lock-in a particular Grapple and don't feel like you need another Power for the remainder of the fight. (...okay, seriously, how many Standard Action buffs does PsyWar have!? They practically need Metapower and Linked Power and Quicken Power to actually set up a decent proportion of the things)

[Yxylu]

As for Revived Fossil, remember that you need to have a skeleton, so no Octopus.

Don’t be so sure of that!

[PoeticallyPsyco]

An octopus skeleton would presumably just be the beak. Squids and cuttlefish also have cartilage mantles, but octopuses don't (which is why they can squeeze through such small gaps).

[Thurbane]

Yeah, all cephalopods are invertebrates, so not Revived Fossil for them.

However, anthro-octopi may have skeletal systems, to support their legs and arms etc.

Still, tentacles do not have hands, and in any case, RF calls out tentacles as an example of the "fleshy" natural attacks that the template loses.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Spoiler: Raiment

Show

We're supposed to save LA -0 for stuff that's outright hard to have function, not stuff that's just somewhat worse than a more normal race. And it doesn't take much in the way of ability scores to make that happen. Having literally half the health of a more typical front-line character only matters if you're expected to take that much in a single fight.

1. This is incorrect—there are plenty of big brutes that aren't "outright hard to function" but got -0 because they're worse than ordinary races.
2. Barring a cheap healing gimmick (ie a dread necromancer's negative energy touch), health pool size matters a lot for sustainability.
3. It's not just that a raiment doesn't get much—it's that it costs 3 RHD and comes with a really inconvenient form factor. Can it use weapons or other equipment? If not, that's a huge disadvantage!

Just be a Raiment from an eccentric gnome who only wore riverin clothes. Boom, immunity to damage except disintegrate!

I don't think that would work. Not just "No DM would allow that" or "The raiment doesn't change stats depending on material," but also "Riverine isn't flexible enough to make clothing out of".

Also, why does riverine exist? Why would anyone making equipment out of force go "This needs water in the middle"? It would be one thing if the water had fish or something in it, like those fishtank platform heels, but they don't. And IIRC the water's described as being under extreme pressure, so any fish that would thrive in a riverine tank would probably not react well to light.

*counts on fingers*

So your melee rogues, clawlocks, and eldritch knights typically have...26 Con? Am I mathing that right? 🤔

They all have class features. -0 LA isn't just about the basic chassis, it's about opportunity costs. You're arguably about as good a grappler as a level 1 dwarf, two levels later, without any of the class or racial features the dwarf would get.

Revived Fossil

When I first found a PDF of Libra Mortis, I mistook this template as making the creature a construct instead of an undead. It's certainly the constructiest undead in the edition!

Also, hot take: Instead of Revived Fossil, we should have gotten a Fossilized Undead template that can be added to any corporeal skeletal undead. Fighting a semi-living literal-fossil is neat and all, but imagine if the undead dinosaur fossils were lead by a fossilized death knight or dinosapien lich or something!

How dare you use the dome!? Down with Democracy, Anarchy will rule! All hail the Helix!!

TBH, Twitch Plays anarchy is less like anarchy and more like a randomized dictatorship with very short regimes. (Not to mention that every anarchist who I've heard lay out their ideal social structure includes a lot of democracy...)

For a medium creature with no HD, it's +12 NA, two 2d6 claws, 20 (!) bonus hit points, clearly offsetting the loss of HP due to LA...

And also Con, but fixed bonus hit points fade in value pretty fast.
Still though, that kind of natural armor and two greatsword-equivalent attacks is nothing to sneeze at. The DR is also nice—a bit larger and more broadly-applicable than a skeleton's, for sure.

Edit: I just saw the "one claw per hand". That is pretty rare. An anthropomorphic giant octopus would be busted with it. I mean, even more busted.

I think you need to have bones to become a revived fossil—this template can't be applied to trace fossils.


EDIT: I vote +2. We could try a graduated LA like we did for normal skeletons, but I dunno where we'd put the gradiations.

[danielxcutter]

I'm guessing anything that loses more than +6 Con would probably deserve a lower LA. Maybe +4.

[Beni-Kujaku]

When I first found a PDF of Libra Mortis, I mistook this template as making the creature a construct instead of an undead. It's certainly the constructiest undead in the edition!

Flesh Golems, the undeadiest construct: "Finally, a worthy opponent, our battle will be legendary!"

[Thurbane]

Flesh Golems, the undeadiest construct: "Finally, a worthy opponent, our battle will be legendary!"

Revived Fossil Dragon vs. Dragonbone Golem maybe?

Maybe a Dracolich keeps one of each as decoys in his dungeon?

[Troacctid]

This is incorrect—there are plenty of big brutes that aren't "outright hard to function" but got -0 because they're worse than ordinary races.

There's plenty of room to be worse than ordinary races and still be +0. Just look at goblins and (pre-RDr) kobolds. Just saying.

Also, why does riverine exist? Why would anyone making equipment out of force go "This needs water in the middle"?

The water is important to the crafting process. It provides the shape.

They all have class features. -0 LA isn't just about the basic chassis, it's about opportunity costs. You're arguably about as good a grappler as a level 1 dwarf, two levels later, without any of the class or racial features the dwarf would get.

For racial classes, is there really a meaningful difference between class features and racial features? 🤔

[loky1109]

Yeah, all cephalopods are invertebrates, so not Revived Fossil for them.

Belemnitida? Ammonoidea?
I can't imaginative this good, but invertebrates doesn't mean inskeletals.

[AvatarVecna]

Do exoskeletons count? Fossilised spider?

[danielxcutter]

There's plenty of room to be worse than ordinary races and still be +0. Just look at goblins and (pre-RDr) kobolds. Just saying.

Kobolds really would have been -0 if it wasn’t for the sourcebooks though.

[GreatWyrmGold]

For racial classes, is there really a meaningful difference between class features and racial features? 🤔

That's not the point? The point is that the raiment doesn't have much of either. The point isn't to classify the +4 grapple bonus as a class feature and Improved Grab as a racial feature, it's to say the dwarven barbarian has so much more going on.

Do exoskeletons count? Fossilised spider?

Exoskeleton counts as a skeletal system. Exoskeletons don't fossilize the way endoskeletons do, but this template doesn't make the distinction. It just requires "a skeletal system".

(Does that include hydrostatic skeletons? That would bring in a wide variety of invertebrates—though not cephalopods, since their tentacles and whatnot support themselves through pure muscular action. Calling muscular hydrostats a skeleton would be pushing it even more than with hydrostatic skeletons.)

[danielxcutter]

I think I'd be willing to accept insectoid Revived Fossils or other creatures with shells like that, but I don't think I'd let octopi and squid work.

[Blue Jay]

The revived fossil template is really just the skeleton template with some generally better numbers and Combat Reflexes instead of Improved Initiative. It's certainly an improvement over the skeleton template, but it doesn't really do much more than skeleton does, beyond the enhanced numbers.

I think the undead immunities are definitely worth LA +1, as a general rule. But I'm not sure that the extra numbers you get here are quite enough for another +1. I think I'll vote for LA +1 for the revived fossil. If we want a flexible LA, like we made for the skeleton, then I'd vote LA +2 for 1HD humanoids, and LA +1 for everything else.

[Troacctid]

Unlike skeleton, revived fossil doesn't double the creature's RHD, so it doesn't really matter how many hit dice the base creature has.

That's not the point? The point is that the raiment doesn't have much of either. The point isn't to classify the +4 grapple bonus as a class feature and Improved Grab as a racial feature, it's to say the dwarven barbarian has so much more going on.

I wouldn't describe barbarian as a class that has "a lot going on." You get rage, fast movement, uncanny dodge, and trap sense. That's four class features. Meanwhile, dwarves have darkvision, weapon familiarity, stability, a bonus to saves, +0 net ability scores, and like five different ribbons, so I guess they have a lot going on in the same sense that monks are packed to the gills with colorful and unique abiilities?

[Tzardok]

Unlike skeleton, revived fossil doesn't double the creature's RHD, so it doesn't really matter how many hit dice the base creature has.

Skeleton doesn't double RHD. Only Zombie does that.

[Debatra]

+2 - Troacctid, Beni-Kujaku, Morphic tide, GreatWyrmGold,
+1 - Blue Jay

Fair warning that I'll be away for a few days. I was tempted to call it here with a clean majority for +2 and leave on a fresh entry, but I'll give it until I'm back in case there's more discussion to be had. Plus, the next monster might be one of the ones that creates an easy vote followed by a few pages of off-topic discussion, and I don't want to start that with only a few pages left in this thread. In fact, I might even preemptively make a separate thread for that discussion just to keep us on-point here.

Speaking of the last few pages of threads, any thoughts on the next thread title? A little early perhaps, but also why not.

[danielxcutter]

"Maybe +4" - danielxcutter
+2 - Troacctid, Beni-Kujaku, Morphic tide, GreatWyrmGold,
+1 - Blue Jay

Fair warning that I'll be away for a few days. I was tempted to call it here with a clean majority for +2 and leave on a fresh entry, but I'll give it until I'm back in case there's more discussion to be had.

By "maybe +4" I meant "maybe losing a +4 Con bonus", not a LA vote.

[Tzardok]

Speaking of the last few pages of threads, any thoughts on the next thread title? A little early perhaps, but also why not.

Hmm, if this were German, I could make a pun with elf and eleven (it's the same word in German), but I can't think of any in English. Sorry.

[liquidformat]

The revived fossil template is really just the skeleton template with some generally better numbers and Combat Reflexes instead of Improved Initiative. It's certainly an improvement over the skeleton template, but it doesn't really do much more than skeleton does, beyond the enhanced numbers.

I think the undead immunities are definitely worth LA +1, as a general rule. But I'm not sure that the extra numbers you get here are quite enough for another +1. I think I'll vote for LA +1 for the revived fossil. If we want a flexible LA, like we made for the skeleton, then I'd vote LA +2 for 1HD humanoids, and LA +1 for everything else.

I don't think this is enough improvement from the skeleton template to give it a different rating so I will go with +1/+0/-0 just as we did for the skeleton template.

There's plenty of room to be worse than ordinary races and still be +0. Just look at goblins and (pre-RDr) kobolds. Just saying.

To be fair goblin should be -0 but then again so should half elf, half orc and some others...

(Does that include hydrostatic skeletons? That would bring in a wide variety of invertebrates—though not cephalopods, since their tentacles and whatnot support themselves through pure muscular action. Calling muscular hydrostats a skeleton would be pushing it even more than with hydrostatic skeletons.)

I don't know I think some prehistoric cephalopods could make some amusing revived fossils like parapuzosia seppenradensis or Cameroceras, I mean seriously I want an undead torpedo!

[Remuko]

I'll throw in for now at +1 LA Its got some nice stuff but I don't think its that good, especially on stuff that can't trade out the first HD for a class level.

[Efrate]

I think +2. With the caveat that as HD increases it loses a lot of value. At 1HD it is easily +2. Maybe at 2HD as well. Beyond that its diminishing returns.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I wouldn't describe barbarian as a class that has "a lot going on." You get rage, fast movement, uncanny dodge, and trap sense. That's four class features. Meanwhile, dwarves have darkvision, weapon familiarity, stability, a bonus to saves, +0 net ability scores, and like five different ribbons, so I guess they have a lot going on in the same sense that monks are packed to the gills with colorful and unique abiilities?

I didn't say that the barbarian class has a lot going on, I said a dwarven barbarian ha more going on than a raiment. If you're going to twist my words to make them look dumb, you probably shouldn't quote what I actually said.

[Thurbane]

I think I'll throw my vote for revived Fossil in as LA +2, since it is superior to Skeleton, but I could also see an argument for +1.

[Debatra]

Well that took longer than I thought it would.

+2 - Troacctid, Beni-Kujaku, Morphic tide, GreatWyrmGold, Efrate, Thurbane
+1 - Blue Jay, Remuko
+1/+0/-0 - liquidformat

And +2 just becomes a slightly clearer majority. Okay then, Skin Kite coming up!