LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

[Beni-Kujaku]

Yes, you have a huge (haha) bonus to grappling. But you have -5 BAB. For a melee character, that's pitiable. That means you actually have less chance to hit something than a human fighter of your level. Adding the lack of constitution of undeads and you don't make for a really good melee character. Improved grab is neat, but it's only on the bite! You want a toothpick weapon there!

In the end, you are a One-Trick Pony that isn't really uniquely good at its one trick. Yes, you fly, but at this level this is very far from unique, and you'd probably want a flying item to get a bit more than a poor maneuverability.

And that's not even counting the fact that you can't enter a martial prestige class before level 10, not even counting the fact that you only have 1 skill point per level. Even if you manage to get decently good in combat, you will do litterally nothing else. Is that really worth 9 RHD? No! I'm pretty sure not. 6 or 7, maybe, but not 9. The skirr is not a really good monster, and is a way worse PC. I vote LA -0 for this one.

It looks like someone used a Yu-Gi-Oh monster as inspiration for a budget horror movie prop.
That's intended as a compliment. It's a cool design.



That's not diet dependency, that's carnivory going through an emo phase.

You're right! I can see a lot of the Curse of Dragon in there ^^

Spoiler: Curse of Dragon

Show

You know, it's just that it was carnivorous when it was alive, and kinda... forgot it wasn't anymore. Which makes me wonder what it was when it was alive. A flying minotaur? A baby roc? A Phoenix?

[liquidformat]

Yes, you have a huge (haha) bonus to grappling. But you have -5 BAB. For a melee character, that's pitiable. That means you actually have less chance to hit something than a human fighter of your level. Adding the lack of constitution of undeads and you don't make for a really good melee character. Improved grab is neat, but it's only on the bite! You want a toothpick weapon there!

In the end, you are a One-Trick Pony that isn't really uniquely good at its one trick. Yes, you fly, but at this level this is very far from unique, and you'd probably want a flying item to get a bit more than a poor maneuverability.

And that's not even counting the fact that you can't enter a martial prestige class before level 10, not even counting the fact that you only have 1 skill point per level. Even if you manage to get decently good in combat, you will do litterally nothing else. Is that really worth 9 RHD? No! I'm pretty sure not. 6 or 7, maybe, but not 9. The skirr is not a really good monster, and is a way worse PC. I vote LA -0 for this one.

you are actually -7 in the hole once you include size in your bab calc, so when taking into account +12 to Str you are equivalent to a level 9 warrior with 8 strength, yep that is exactly where you want to be at level 9... You are slightly better than Necropolitan human warrior 8 with 10 str

[Morphic tide]

...Alternatively compare to the melee classes that don't have full BAB, in which case Swordsage and Monk are getting the bumped Wis to AC, and both can, again, get 6d6 base damage. Grappling counters the caster-types the moment your 50 ft. speed hits them, and your +13 AC counters non-Touch attacks. You are neither a true glass cannon nor a one-trick pony, Grappling has Monk that you can't avoid having solid normal attack damage with as a Grappler (it's literally the selling point of Monk Grapple), and Swordsage can get the same Unarmed Strike.

You don't have to completely specialize in what the monster does, people, you can use the numbers for other things. And the numbers here are remarkably easy access to 6d6 damage on 10 ft. reach, if not 15 ft. via Burning Brand at literally your first class level.

Edit: Your attack roll is slightly better than Human Necropolitan Warrior 8 with 10 Strength. Your damage puts them completely to shame, even by baseline, because you have three Natural Attacks utterly independent of BAB. You want damage, you can readily get Gargantuan Monk 12 with 34 Strength at ECL 12. Sure, you basically have to go PsyWar to wrangle the Gargantuan beaters, but then my suggested Monk or Unarmed Swordsage 3 has +18 to attack rolls without getting the necklace involved for near-certainty to hit a Purple Wormand, and getting the Purple Worm's attack to start the Grapple via Improved Grab unreliable isn't that big a challenge if you're focusing on just Big Dumb Fighter-ing.

On 28 point-buy, you can afford 18 Str, 14 Dex, and 14 Wis, giving you base +4 Dex bonus, +3 from Wis via Swordsage, +12 Natural Armor, the ability to wear a Chain Shirt if sourcing Light Armor proficiency from elsewhere (you have a level to spare for hitting 7th-level Maneuvers at 20) for AC 33 with no magic items. Throw in a +4 Wis item, +1 that Chain Shirt, grab +3 from other items, and you get to AC 41, making it a 25% chance of a Purple Worm landing its Bite to start Grappling you with rather limited particular effort to AC.

Edit 2: The Iron Golem has AC 30, but a Grapple of only +28 at CR 30, and the CR 12 Colossal Monstrous Scorpion may have +58 Grapple, but only has AC 26. If you aren't solo frontline, you can Grapple what seems to be basically every non-Grapple monster at your level to inflict your inflated Unarmed Strike damage, and be a more normal beatstick against the Grapplers, so long as you have somebody on call to handle the task of actually taking damage. Which is pretty much how Monks and Swordsages operate anyways, they are not bulky HP sacks, they are flighty classes that want to unload damage without response.

[liquidformat]

...Alternatively compare to the melee classes that don't have full BAB, in which case Swordsage and Monk are getting the bumped Wis to AC, and both can, again, get 6d6 base damage. Grappling counters the caster-types the moment your 50 ft. speed hits them, and your +13 AC counters non-Touch attacks. You are neither a true glass cannon nor a one-trick pony, Grappling has Monk that you can't avoid having solid normal attack damage with as a Grappler (it's literally the selling point of Monk Grapple), and Swordsage can get the same Unarmed Strike.

You don't have to completely specialize in what the monster does, people, you can use the numbers for other things. And the numbers here are remarkably easy access to 6d6 damage on 10 ft. reach, if not 15 ft. via Burning Brand at literally your first class level.

since you have 9 rhd you aren't hitting 6d6 until epic level and that is only if your dm is allowing interpolations which isn't 100% otherwise I think you are stuck at 4d8 max. Also you aren't reliably hitting anything with monk 11 or swordsage 11 you are -10 in the hole compared to someone with full bab that is equivalent to being in a half bab progression class, having +12 to str almost puts you on par with a 3/4th bab class with 10 in str/dex (depending on if you have finesse or not). For a 'beatstick' this is a horrible place to be and this is all you have to show for half your build.

In no way is this a good investment, sure you have natural fly speed but with poor maneuverability you can't do much with it, and you have undead traits but that is worth ~1 level worth of class features, you aren't getting enough ability score bonuses nor racial features to make this thing worth the investment.

[Debatra]

We're really comparing this thing to an NPC class? The Warrior is Tier 6, well below anything worth mentioning in these threads.

[Troacctid]

When you think about it, having half BAB for your racial hit dice on a huge beatstick creature is really just another way of saying you have built-in Power Attack.

[InvisibleBison]

When you think about it, having half BAB for your racial hit dice on a huge beatstick creature is really just another way of saying you have built-in Power Attack.

Yeah, but having a version of Power Attack that you can't adjust to the situation isn't the best thing.

[Morphic tide]

since you have 9 rhd you aren't hitting 6d6 until epic level and that is only if your dm is allowing interpolations which isn't 100% otherwise I think you are stuck at 4d8 max. Also you aren't reliably hitting anything with monk 11 or swordsage 11 you are -10 in the hole compared to someone with full bab that is equivalent to being in a half bab progression class, having +12 to str almost puts you on par with a 3/4th bab class with 10 to hit. For a 'beatstick' this is a horrible place to be and this is all you have to show for half your build.

At 12th level, you get +2 BAB from a 3/4th class, +4 BAB baseline, get +10 from your base 30 Strength (18+12), can be generally anticipated the Amulet of Mighty Fists for +1, and a +4 Strength items' not unexpectable. This results in +21 to attack rolls with such barest of efforts, for a 55% chance to hit the apparent considerable outlier of the CR 13 Iron Golem's AC 30, or if Monk you can Flurry for two 45% chances for a roughly 70% chance of one hit. 6k GP for Amulet of Mighty Fists +1, 16k GP for Belt of Giant's Strength +4.

As for damage, again you can have effective Monk 12 at level 12. Superior Unarmed Strike is +4 levels, Monk's Belt is +5 levels, you get 3 levels from Monk or Unarmed Swordsage. This produces 3d6 on a Large Monk, which turns into 4d6 on a Huge Monk, then you use Improved Natural Attack for effective Gargantuan size, which is in fact 6d6. 13k GP, your 12th-level feat, and one of your RHD feats.

The AC comparison point of a second +4 item is another 16k GP, +1 armor is 2k GP, +3 Ring of Protection is 18k GP. 71k GP so far in a deeply sub-optimal capacity (and also ignoring the surcharge of how the Periphat of Wisdom and Amulet of Mighty Fists overlap; Necklace of Natural Attacks covering Bite and Unarmed Strike would actually be cheaper, might be a saving to add +1 Natural Armor over moving to +3 Protection)

The numbers to work are available to you. You may not compete with the Uberchargers, but if you want to try your massive base damage and Strength will scale wonderfully with Valorous to keep up far longer than initially anticipated, and can always Grapple anything worse at it than you.

You're really comparing this thing to an NPC class? The Warrior is Tier 6, well below anything worth mentioning in these threads.

I'm replying to somebody else making that comparison on the basis of accuracy of attacks, pointing out that you have quite sizable damage potential going on. People seem to constantly ignore how Strength make-up produces per-hit damage.

When you think about it, having half BAB for your racial hit dice on a huge beatstick creature is really just another way of saying you have built-in Power Attack.

This is basically the core of my point about a lot of these monsters. Full-BAB classes are expected to trade some accuracy for Power Attack damage, and Monsters are generally built to be quite hittable by 3/4th BAB characters to permit the use of it.

[Thurbane]

You know, it's just that it was carnivorous when it was alive, and kinda... forgot it wasn't anymore. Which makes me wonder what it was when it was alive. A flying minotaur? A baby roc? A Phoenix?

To me, the image in LM screams created undead: the wrappings and mismatched body parts look like some crazy necromancer has stuck a Minotaur skull onto some kind of huge avian or flying beast body, then done some mummification before animating it.

[Troacctid]

I keep hammering on this point, but I do think it's important to not just be like "This is basically strictly better than a normal human monk...but monks suck, so -0." The standard for -0 should be stricter than that. There's no reason this couldn't be +0. Even at 9 HD, it's very easily competitive with core martial classes, if not outright better than them.

[Thurbane]

But is it only good at one thing?

Even a Human Fighter 9 is likely to have more things to do in and out of combat than a huge grappling pile of bones with the intelligence of a goat. He definitely won't be apple to grapple as well, but he can speak and use normal gear without jumping through hoops. And even though the Fighter skill list is pretty miserable, he can, at the very least, Intimidate in a social encounter, train animals, and/or craft mundane items. Also, the Fighter isn't going to have issues walking around in a standard 10 or 5 foot dungeon corridor.

What can the Skirr do outside of combat? Spot or Listen (pick one, unless you sunk and 18 into your base Int score). Maybe act as a flying mount as well (the rules around Intelligent mounts can get a bit awkward in my experience).

When I assign LA, those are factors I also look at (is it a one-trick pony in combat; how will it be able to interact with other creatures; can it use standard adventuring gear and interact with its environment easily; and what, if anything, can it contribute outside of combat).

Not trying to be combative, this is an honest question: do others look at those factors when assigning their votes?

[Troacctid]

But is it only good at one thing?

Even a Human Fighter 9 is likely to have more things to do in and out of combat than a huge grappling pile of bones with the intelligence of a goat. He definitely won't be apple to grapple as well, but he can speak and use normal gear without jumping through hoops. And even though the Fighter skill list is pretty miserable, he can, at the very least, Intimidate in a social encounter, train animals, and/or craft mundane items. Also, the Fighter isn't going to have issues walking around in a standard 10 or 5 foot dungeon corridor.

What can the Skirr do outside of combat? Spot or Listen (pick one, unless you sunk and 18 into your base Int score). Maybe act as a flying mount as well (the rules around Intelligent mounts can get a bit awkward in my experience).

When I assign LA, those are factors I also look at (is it a one-trick pony in combat; how will it be able to interact with other creatures; can it use standard adventuring gear and interact with its environment easily; and what, if anything, can it contribute outside of combat).

Not trying to be combative, this is an honest question: do others look at those factors when assigning their votes?

You have the same skill points as a half-orc fighter (and a +8 size bonus to Intimidate, btw). Let's not pretend like Int isn't already a dump stat. And the flight alone makes you more versatile in and out of combat than the fighter. C'mon.

[Tzardok]

I think the arguments for +0 are convincing.

[Caelestion]

I'll go for LA +0 too.

[Mystic Muse]

LA -0 here for sure.

[Debatra]

Not calling it yet, but the votes so far up to 1412:

+0 - Efrate, Morphic tide, emulord, Troacctid, Tzardok, Caelestion, Lapak
-0 - Thurbane, remetagross, liquidformat, Remuko, Beni-Kujaku, Mystic Muse

We have a tie at six each.

Who Shot CR? - remetagross, Caelestion,
20,000 ECL Under Viability - Beni-Kujaku, danielxcutter,
Come CR Bad Takes - AvatarVecna,
Better LA'd Than Never - Dalmosh, PoeticallyPsyco, Remuko, Tzardok, Lapak

[Thurbane]

You have the same skill points as a half-orc fighter (and a +8 size bonus to Intimidate, btw). Let's not pretend like Int isn't already a dump stat. And the flight alone makes you more versatile in and out of combat than the fighter. C'mon.

Well yes, if you choose the one race in the PHB that takes a hit to Int, I guess.

A Human with 10 Int is getting 3 skill points/level (if they want to be more skill oriented, they can take the Thug variant, but that's digressing). Also, tripping or disarming builds are going to have a minimum Int of 13 in most cases, so Int is not necessarily a dump stat for all Fighters.

The size bonus to Intimidate is a valid point. Assuming a medium Fighter with 10 Cha and 12 ranks in Intimidate, you'll come out with +12. A Skirr with no ranks, 14 Cha and +8 size also comes out at +12. So at ECL 9 it's a wash +10, so it's close - the Fighter, however, has the option of continuing to improved their ranks. The Skirr would too, I guess, depending on it's class progression, and available skill points.

Flight is indeed great, but at ECL 9, most mundanes would either be expected to have an item, or a friendly caster to cover that. The flipside, I guess, is that a Human/Half-Orc whatever isn't going to have the issues with dungeons that a Huge creature is. It's fair to say a fair chunk of most D&D campaigns will be happening in 10 or 5 foot corridors.

But what about the other issues I mentioned? Are they worth considering? In general,. I mean, not just in relation to the Skirr.

[liquidformat]

You have the same skill points as a half-orc fighter (and a +8 size bonus to Intimidate, btw). Let's not pretend like Int isn't already a dump stat. And the flight alone makes you more versatile in and out of combat than the fighter. C'mon.

It's rare if ever that I have dumped Int on any character, skills are a huge part of any campaign and it sucks if you have nothing to do ever outside of combat. Also it isn't exactly hard for a half-orc to double the skill points of a Skirr just add 2 from your point buy, whereas the Skirr has to do some serious investment to do the same.
If I am going to play a character that completely tanks int I am going to need something great to want to do so, this doesn't cut it this doesn't come close. On the other hand Cave Troll which tanks int is actually getting enough out of the deal to be viable. This things just isn't getting much out of the investment, at 6 maybe 7 rhd sure this things is ok, but at sink in 9 rhd you are getting almost nothing in return, your too stupid to do anything outside of combat beside being a mount, you might not even fit in a majority of places everyone else in the party can, might not be capable of speech, and you are only marginally good in combat yeah that sounds like a -0 la to me.

[Troacctid]

Int is often a dump stat. Often enough that you'll regularly see fighters with 8 Int. A single skill point per level is well within normal fighter tolerances. It's not a big deal, and it's certainly not a dealbreaker. And like I said, basic flight capability provides more out-of-combat utility than anything the fighter can do. The fact that the fighter can spend more than half of her WBL in order to afford a comparable flight item isn't really a point in her favor—that just means our derpy oversized beatstick gets to spend that dough on even more utility if it wants.

Fitting in dungeon corridors is always a concern with larger creatures, but you'd never give a monster a lower level adjustment because it grows in size. Quite the opposite—increasing a monster's size is automatically considered an extra +1 CR. It would be unfathomable to price it as a drawback.

Ability to use gear is a valid concern for some monsters (like the skin kite!) but not this monster AFAICT. As for how the monster performs in exploration and interaction encounters, that's traditionally a function of your build, not your race. Obviously if you're something like a half-fey and you have oodles of racial social abilities, that's great and it should factor in accordingly. But when it comes to assigning LA, power is power. There's no reason to demand that it be spread out across multiple different specializations. It's normal for characters not to do everything, and if you really want to do everything, you have feats and class levels and WBL—use 'em. (And if we can handwave things like "I have animal intelligence," then we can certainly handwave things like "Aaah help there's a giant monster flying around town.")

[danielxcutter]

Anyone who cares more about skills than the average Fighter wants at least base skill points. I've never gone below a 10 for Int.

[Troacctid]

Anyone who cares more about skills than the average Fighter wants at least base skill points. I've never gone below a 10 for Int.

Nevertheless, personal preferences aside, it is an entirely logical stat to dump on many martial builds.

[danielxcutter]

Define "many".

No really, the only builds I can think of are builds purely optimized for damage and nothing more, and those are mostly Fighter or Barbarian builds.

[Troacctid]

Well then, I have good news for you: this monster comes with plenty of damage out of the gate and has lots of defense and mobility, so it's more balanced than those damage-only builds. Plus, the fly speed obviates Climb and Jump, and the size and Cha bonus is basically 10 free ranks in Intimidate. Add in max ranks in Listen or Spot and you end up almost a full skill ahead of your 10 Int human fighter.

[Beni-Kujaku]

You say that it is better than the average monk. In damage‚ assuredly‚ nobody here denies it. But the skirr has less‚ in 9 levels‚ than most classes have in 2! The monk has 2 bonus feats and evasion to balance the bad BAB‚ the bard has it's music and spells‚ the swordsage has freaking maneuvers and feats and nifty bonuses. Being a point of BAB behind must pay off. The skirr has no ability. Poor flight means it won't be able to manipulate things while flying‚ reducing drastically it's use. And apart from that‚ it has nothing of worth. This is just a boring monster‚ that I see no reason to use at +0 when I can just play a goliath.

And above all‚ martial classes have a choice. They can multiclass‚ and they can prestige class. The skirr just can't. Everything it tries outside of grappling‚ it will be 5 levels too late. And int as a dump stat? Except barbarian builds who can't use expertise (and who can prestige class! And who have full BAB! And aren't killed by the first ray of stupidity. And could put points in int to increase ttheir skills. The skirr has to put points in int just to not automatically be in a coma!), I really don't think there are much of them.

[Troacctid]

If you told me there was a prestige class that would make my character grow two size categories, sprout wings, become immune to mind-affecting abilities, ignore critical hits, and auto-pass Fortitude saves, all while getting bonuses to primary and tertiary ability scores, and in only nine levels, with only a modest skill tax as a prerequisite...I guarantee you it would be a char-op staple. The skirr doesn't need a prestige class—it is the prestige class. You just take it before your base class instead of after.

[danielxcutter]

If it deleted my Con score and most of my Int and skill points, yes I think I'd be less eager to do that.

[Troacctid]

That's no different from a prestige class requiring that you be a wood elf and have 12 ranks in Craft (whittling).

[Lilapop]

Looks like interest in my little experiment has died down, so I'll unpack: The immediate reaction (and actually none of the reactions) to a beatstick with a d8 hitdie and a reduced incentive to get a good constitution score (because your concentration and fortitude are based on your shape's constitution, not your own) wasn't "oh, your hitpoints will be below par for the role". But when, say, d8+2=6.5 isn't that big of a deal compared to d10+2=7.5, why is d12+0=6.5 always brought up as a major downside? Like, I'm not saying it isn't... I just feel it is being overstated most of the time.

[danielxcutter]

Well, the thing is that unless you go into Warblade or Barbarian you're going to have less than d12s for class HD.

And after a point it's really not that hard to get Con bonuses through spells or items. Wildshape Rangers can buy Con-boosters(all they need on top of that is a few Wildshape Clasps, which are relatively cheap). Undead don't get those. Even with templates that convert class HD to d12s tend to trail behind at higher levels, let alone undead monsters that don't even do that.

[Troacctid]

Looks like interest in my little experiment has died down, so I'll unpack: The immediate reaction (and actually none of the reactions) to a beatstick with a d8 hitdie and a reduced incentive to get a good constitution score (because your concentration and fortitude are based on your shape's constitution, not your own) wasn't "oh, your hitpoints will be below par for the role". But when, say, d8+2=6.5 isn't that big of a deal compared to d10+2=7.5, why is d12+0=6.5 always brought up as a major downside? Like, I'm not saying it isn't... I just feel it is being overstated most of the time.

It's not a big deal at all. I don't know why danielxcutter gets all worked up about it. It's especially not a big deal for flying undead like this one or the last one, since you can take the Slow trait with no real drawback. And even if you don't, it's still approximately equivalent to only a -2, point-wise. If you can play a melee elf ranger, you can play a melee gargoyle mummy bird.