LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

[danielxcutter]

There's both. The feat is called improved maneuverability, and the item is the pectoral of maneuverability (16k gp, torso slot). Both are +1 maneuverability.

To answer your question, you do kinda want "good" so you can hover instead of a minimum forward speed required to stay afloat, allowing non-pounce full attacks (most flying creature's primary natural attack is specifically not the one that deals x2 damage on a dive), summons and other full round actions. Most casters could get way with the lower qualities, relying on standard action spells.

There was a Greater version of the pectoral right? Pretty sure there was.

[Lilapop]

That one I actually did have to look up: 90k gp, +2 maneuverability.

Hmm, page 49. I would like to direct people's attention to the fact that we are turning it up to eleven with the next thread.

[Remuko]

Sounds very damning for the standard fighter class, which also does only one thing and has no out-of-combat utility. In fact, it's pretty damning for the barbarian too. Are we rating fighter and barbarian at -0 LA now?

Yes actually. That's why theres a rule in place for the threads that we don't compare monsters to "low tier" classes like those.

[Debatra]

The rule/guideline is Tiers 1-4, which includes Barbarian (and Fighter if you'd rather go by the 2019 update thread).

[Thurbane]

I'm curious as to what could be done to improve a Skirr's OOC utility, as well as to add other combat options without neglecting grappling focus.

Like, genuinely interested, not trying to be adversarial. As I said in my initial post on the Skirr, I do have a soft spot for them.

What kind of build can anyone suggest that might make me interested in playing one? My focus would be to stay good at grappling, but have at least one other combat option for foes that aren't viable to grapple, and things to do to contribute to a party outside of combat.

What kind of class/feat/item combos could we look at to achieve this?

[Troacctid]

I'm curious as to what could be done to improve a Skirr's OOC utility, as well as to add other combat options without neglecting grappling focus.

Like, genuinely interested, not trying to be adversarial. As I said in my initial post on the Skirr, I do have a soft spot for them.

What kind of build can anyone suggest that might make me interested in playing one? My focus would be to stay good at grappling, but have at least one other combat option for foes that aren't viable to grapple, and things to do to contribute to a party outside of combat.

What kind of class/feat/item combos could we look at to achieve this?

The other option in combat is easy, just punch them really hard in the face. You can kill anything if you just throw enough damage at it. Since you have reach, you can also disarm or trip many smaller enemies without needing the feats. If you really want something orthogonal to that, I guess you could leverage your size with Imperious Command.

If you want noncombat options, try the Bind Vestige line (Malphas makes you an uber-scout) or the Fey/Fiendish Heritage line. You can also take Arcane Schooling to gain access to sorcerer wands, Touchstone (Shrine at Kahar) for healing, or Lifesight to auto-spot people.

That's just feats. Magic items make it even easier. Look for stuff like hand of the oak father, war wizard cloak, third eye clairvoyance, third eye psionic sight, rod of escape, ring of x-ray vision, blast globes, eyes of truth, superior dispelling weapon, or tooth of Dahlver-Nar.

If you want a more versatile class that synergizes with your chassis, you could go into rogue, totemist, swordsage, or even something weird like jaunter.

[liquidformat]

I believed there was an agreement within LA assignment to comparing the monsters with the classes the most similar to them.
Because else all monsters without ridiculously awesome Slas or sur powers or casting would have -0 LA.
So the Skirr should be compared for example to a fighter or a barbarian or a core only monk but not to a swordsage because the swordsage is not similar to a skirr.

Core only Monk should never be a valid comparison point in this thread. Even normal monk shouldn't be a comparison point and Fighter depending on which tiering system we are using is either not valid or an edge case of just barely valid.

Barbarian is the go to comparison point for most beatsticks (especially if we use something like orc/water orc as race) because then we are talking apples to apples since you are optimizing ability score with orc barbarian which is inline with what you are getting from a beatstick monster.

On the other hand I really think we should avoid using fighter especially human fighter as a comparison point just because then you are really rating the versatility of feats themselves and your feat choice is more of the comparison than the build.

Also I am not seeing an argument why swordsage optimized around grappling can't be a comparison point for a grappling monster.

I'm curious as to what could be done to improve a Skirr's OOC utility, as well as to add other combat options without neglecting grappling focus.

Like, genuinely interested, not trying to be adversarial. As I said in my initial post on the Skirr, I do have a soft spot for them.

What kind of build can anyone suggest that might make me interested in playing one? My focus would be to stay good at grappling, but have at least one other combat option for foes that aren't viable to grapple, and things to do to contribute to a party outside of combat.

What kind of class/feat/item combos could we look at to achieve this?

As I pointed to earlier hulking thrower is an interesting PRC to take for Skirr and you could use grappled opponents as thrown weapons so killing to birds with one flying mook.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Yugioh came to the states in 2002 and Libris Mortis was published 2004 so they could very well have used Yugioh for inspiration.

I dunno. I mean, the ancient Egyptian aesthetic isn't exactly unique to YGO. It's not like there's a specific monster that—

You're right! I can see a lot of the Curse of Dragon in there ^^

Spoiler: Curse of Dragon

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Oh dear.


Jokes aside, I don't think there's much going on there. If a children's card game inspired this monster design, it's not overt enough for online randos like us to identify.

When you think about it, having half BAB for your racial hit dice on a huge beatstick creature is really just another way of saying you have built-in Power Attack.

Huh, that's an interesting point. And also a potential way to more precisely rate this sort of monster—compare their increased damage to their lowered attack bonus and see how that compares to PA.

To me, the image in LM screams created undead: the wrappings and mismatched body parts look like some crazy necromancer has stuck a Minotaur skull onto some kind of huge avian or flying beast body, then done some mummification before animating it.

Probably, but why would you assume minotaur skull? There's a monster with a similar skull which would be a lot more common in most settings. It has the head of a minotaur and the body of a centaur. In your tongue, you could call it a "bull".

[Thurbane]

Probably, but why would you assume minotaur skull? There's a monster with a similar skull which would be a lot more common in most settings. It has the head of a minotaur and the body of a centaur. In your tongue, you could call it a "bull".

True - the fact it comes with a 2 Int may also make bull more likely than Minotaur.

Also, a lot of 3E art draws Minotaurs more like weird horned Sasquatches than the mythological bull-headed man.

Spoiler

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[Debatra]

Also, the Skirr's flavor text says "humanoid form with the skull of a long-toothed bull".

[danielxcutter]

Don't think that completely rules out minotaur skulls, but honestly this thing should probably be a manufactured undead anyways.

Actually, how come so many of these things aren't capable of being created by PCs without fiat? Revived Fossil explicitly spells out normal spells won't work(intentionally blocking it from normal PC use) and most just don't even mention the option.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I could also totally see a Skirr spontaneously assembling out of a mixed boneyard.

[Tzardok]

I could also totally see a Skirr spontaneously assembling out of a mixed boneyard.

After a truck load bandages fell in.

[noob]

After a truck load bandages fell in.

Or after the boneyard ate enough wounded people in the medic's tent(because the boneyard is an undead monster too that can create other undead monsters from its own bones)

[Debatra]

Updated vote count:

+0 - Efrate, Morphic tide, emulord, Troacctid, Tzardok, Caelestion, Lapak, Lilapop
-0 - Thurbane, remetagross, liquidformat, Remuko, Beni-Kujaku, Mystic Muse

With the extra two votes since last count, alongside the drifting conversation, +0 edges it out for the Skirr.

Who Shot CR? - remetagross, Caelestion,
20,000 ECL Under Viability - Beni-Kujaku, danielxcutter,
Come CR Bad Takes - AvatarVecna,
Better LA'd Than Never - Dalmosh, PoeticallyPsyco, Remuko, Tzardok, Lapak

We also have a clear winner for the next thread title, Better LA'd Than Never, with five.

See you there with the Skulking Cyst.