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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    I don't think the defenses on this thing are particularly noteworthy, though, aside from the actually nice natural armor; fire damage is common but not quite ubiquitous for that for that to heal enough unless you intentionally take friendly fire(heh) which the other frontliners may have trouble with or are on an Elemental Plane, and Cold To The Touch doesn't heal much either and also doesn't seem to work with weapons. There's no DR to keep your somewhat unimpressive hit points from being turned into shaved ice and being able to get up later on isn't enough if the rest of your party has been obliterated in the meantime.

    Disintegrate is going to be your bane, but I suppose it is going to be a few levels until that becomes mainstream and that's more an inherent weakness of undead in general.
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Popping in (finally) to say a few things!

    Winterhaunt of Iborighu is a great prestige class for this guy because of Coldstrike boosting the damage you deal with any magical cold ability you possess.

    While not the best, you could enter with a cleric dip and warlock then use Hellrime Blast to add your Coldstrike dice to your Eldritch Blast Damage. Add in Hideous Blow and slam a target once per round for Eldritch Blast damage, Slam Damage, and 2x Coldstrike damage.

    I personally read the Contingent Healing as option B. I don't think that the zombie apocalypse will really warrant an asterisk when being limited to humanoids, but I am fine with rating it with an asterisk.

    So what are we left with: a quickly healing undead with a large amount of natural armor and some cold damage. Another creature that is not too flexible in routes available (you are either a melee, a fast progression spellcaster, or a very niche build). I will vote LA +1* but only just. I think that they can do fine in melee, and are more capable than a Water Orc in most scenarios.

    Even a simple Bleakborn 8/Paladin of Tyranny 2/Blackguard 10 would work. Again a simple straightforward character that reaches T3 and does well.
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  3. - Top - End - #123
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Falontani View Post
    Popping in (finally) to say a few things!

    Winterhaunt of Iborighu is a great prestige class for this guy because of Coldstrike boosting the damage you deal with any magical cold ability you possess.
    Okay, that actually kinda makes a lot of sense. Wouldn't be exactly shocked if I'd seen his clerics using them, either. Fits with the fluff as well.

    While not the best, you could enter with a cleric dip and warlock then use Hellrime Blast to add your Coldstrike dice to your Eldritch Blast Damage. Add in Hideous Blow and slam a target once per round for Eldritch Blast damage, Slam Damage, and 2x Coldstrike damage.
    Hellrime Blast is a lesser essence so you'd need at least six levels to get in the first place, and Coldstrike becomes available at WoI level 4 and doesn't get to 2d6 until 8th level. To get all of that you'd need to be ECL 23 or higher for absolute crap at everything.

    I think that rules-wise it works though, because Hellrime Blast and Cold to the Touch are separate sources of cold damage.

    I personally read the Contingent Healing as option B. I don't think that the zombie apocalypse will really warrant an asterisk when being limited to humanoids, but I am fine with rating it with an asterisk.
    Yeah, I think the aura should be read as B as well.

    So what are we left with: a quickly healing undead with a large amount of natural armor and some cold damage. Another creature that is not too flexible in routes available (you are either a melee, a fast progression spellcaster, or a very niche build). I will vote LA +1* but only just. I think that they can do fine in melee, and are more capable than a Water Orc in most scenarios.
    I should note that your actual hit point max is going to be terrible for a melee though, something I think people keep forgetting. The high AC helps with that, but the fast healing seems more like a DM 'gotcha!' tool than a particularly great survival mechanic. As I've said, regeneration et al. doesn't help much if your party's already been slaughtered.

    Even a simple Bleakborn 8/Paladin of Tyranny 2/Blackguard 10 would work. Again a simple straightforward character that reaches T3 and does well.
    Paladin of Tyranny/Blackguard makes no sense whatsoever, you know. Also Blackguard in general kinda sucks without a lot of ex-Paladin levels, though I guess you might be able to make it worth if you know what spells to use. And Hexblade or Crusader should still work.
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  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Ability to constantly re-spawn after being killed by damage is pretty huge, at least IMHO. I personally think regeneration and similar are fairly undervalued in these threads. Sure it won't help in a TPK...but what exactly will (aside from being a Tier 1 type who who wipe enemies before there is any fear of a TPK).

    It may be a little low on HP, but that's going to be an issue for all Undead (and Constructs too, to a slightly lesser extent). We've had other Con -- monsters that have been considered viable melee types.

    All things considered, I'm amending my vote to LA +1*.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Debatra View Post
    The "heal from dealing cold damage" thing is specifically part of its cold touch. The Heat-Draining Aura does not have this text, though the description of its Contingent Healing ability implies this is the case. Further complicating the matter is that the stat block lists the latter as "Contingent Healing 10", perhaps implying it's meant to work like fast healing, but only when a living creature is within its aura, but not actually describing what if anything the ten is for. This is also the only creature I've been able to find with "contingent healing", so we can't even use other examples or a general definition (Unless someone else can find something? I've been through LM and all five Monster Manuals.). So here's what I can think of:

    • Interpretation A: It's just broken. You're not destroyed at 0 HP, but you'll need good old-fashioned negative energy to heal
    • Interpretation B: Fast Healing 10, but only when a living creature is within its Heat-Draining Aura.
    • Interpretation C: The ten is a misprint that does nothing. It is meant to heal from all cold damage dealt, not just its touch.


    As a DM, I'd go with C. I feel like B is least likely of the three, and I really just mention it for the sake of thoroughness.
    I think this thing definitely deserves an asterisk but I don't think it is for the same reason as everyone else is saying. Reading through the Contingent Healing ability it seems pretty straight forward, you heal 10 hp each time your aura affects a living creature, and as long as its corpse isn't destroyed this healing is in effect and it will revive again. Contingent Healing clearly states it can 'only' be healed by its Contingent Healing ability in conjunction with Heat-Draining Aura which flies in the face of the fact that in other sections it is also healed by cold touch and fire. That is screwy but I can live with that too, it makes this undead a lot less powerful since it can't heal from other sources like negative energy only Contingent Healing, cold to the touch, and fire.

    The real issue is Heat-Draining Aura spawns Bleakborn whenever the aura kills a humanoid. It is pretty much guarantied that every level 1 commoner is dead in 1 round of this ability and even if they live they are dead within a couple rounds, so the bleakborn is quite capable of spawning a bleakalypse. It is no wonder the bleakborn in the picture is an elf, elf commoners with their crap con score are prime targets to becoming bleakborn.

    Because of Contingent Healing ability in conjunction with Heat-Draining Aura having to be removed by the dm to make this playable I think this is an easy -0*

  6. - Top - End - #126
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    The Create Spawn ability says that humanoids slain by a bleakborn become zombies, but Heat-Draining Aura says that any humanoids killed by the aura rise as "bleakborn spawn".

    Wow, between this inconsistency and the general "gotcha!" design it seems to have, this thing is a mess. I mean, it's no Tome of Magic, but still...
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    The Create Spawn ability says that humanoids slain by a bleakborn become zombies, but Heat-Draining Aura says that any humanoids killed by the aura rise as "bleakborn spawn".
    The second paragraph of the Create Spawn ability does say that humanoids slain by bleakborn sometimes become bleakborn. By my reading, it seems like the rule under "Create Spawn" is the general rule, and the rule under "Heat-Draining Aura" is a more specific exception to that rule.

    But, it doesn't do much, other than deal cold damage and create spawn. My vote is LA -0* for the bleakborn.

  8. - Top - End - #128
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    From a noncaster perspective, Bleakborn is problematic but workable. d12 HD with no Con mod isn't a huge upgrade for most frontliners, and will even be a downgrade for Fighters/Barbarian/similar bruisers...but the Dex boost, the big NA bonus, and the health recovery mechanics help make up for that. The lack of penalties to attributes means that being MAD hurts quite a bit less, and the big bump to Str will help a meleer out quite a lot. The recovery mechanics mean that anything that fails to actually outright kill you will essentially be auto-healed post-fight, meaning fewer resources are spent keeping you on your feet for the rest of the adventuring day - and "gradual loss of HP over the course of the adventuring day" is one of the few resource management issues noncasters tend to have to worry about. That's pretty useful. But...

    The biggest issue is going to be the BAB +4: while their accuracy shouldn't be an issue, being behind on BAB means iteratives are coming online later, and Bleakborn doesn't have the natural attacks or pounce necessary to make the lack of iteratives sting less. Even assuming we set it at LA +0, we're talking about a second iterative at lvl 10, and only barely reaching 4 iteratives pre-epic. Again, that's assuming we set the LA as low as possible. Being stuck doing "move + single attack" is the bane of noncaster's existence past lvl 6, but at least with them a spell or item can maybe solve their problem. You're just kinda stuck with it until you get another couple BAB under your belt, which is at minimum lvl 10, just barely before other frontliners are getting their 3rd attack. This is straight up going to make your DPR suffer. Str +12, even two-handed, is at most effectively +9 damage per swing, but that's not as good as getting an extra swing for your DPR outside of weird situations. Is the extra cold damage going to make up for that? That'll help, certainly, especially if you're using the natural attack, but it's not going to be enough to get you into rocket tagging hard enough in the mid-high levels.

    TL;DR Bleakborns make a good enemy because they don't play rocket tag - they don't hit too hard compared to equal-level PCs, but they're difficult to hit and insanely hard to keep down. This avoids some of the usual problems of encounter design and almost makes them into a puzzle boss. That's great monster design, and terrible race design: self-healing, effectively self-rezzing, and being super-difficult to hit makes you a really good tank. The problem is, this is 3.5 and tanking sucks. Being able to deal subpar DPR for more rounds of combat per day than a real fighter could spend dealing useful DPR does not a frontliner make, and self-healing to make up for the fact that your super-AC and mediocre HP weren't good enough is more or less saving you from having to apologize to your cleric for not being good at your one job. The mental attribute bonuses and the good Will save help noncasters enough that I can't really justify a -0. It's a tossup between +0 and +1 for me, at least for noncasters. That makes casters the tiebreaker.

    From a caster perspective, there's a lot to like here. d12 HD, even without Con, might well be a significant upgrade for you overall. The BAB isn't much lower than you were going to have anyway even if it gets a good chunk of LA, and attack rolls are for people who can't control the universe. The big boosts to all remaining stats means you can dump all points into your casting stat without worrying too much about everything else, the big NA bonus and the regen mechanics make you that much harder to take out of the fight, and you can self-target with AoE fire blasts without a care in the world. Except then inevitably we come to the downside of big HD on a caster build: the lost spell levels. CL can be made up with items and feats and shenanigans, but it's difficult to cheat your way into casting spells of a level you shouldn't.

    A bleakborn 8/Paladin 6 can cast a single first lvl spell pre-Cha, while a Paladin 14 has 4th lvl spells. A bleakborn 8/Bard 2 has 1st lvl spells, while a Bard 10 has 4th lvl spells. A bleakborn 8/Cleric 1 can cast Cure Light Wounds, while a Cleric 9 can cast Mass Cure Light Wounds. A bleakborn 8/sorcerer 4 can cast Scorching Ray, while a Sorcerer 12 can cast Disintegrate. A bleakborn 8/Wizard 9 has started using Scry N Die tactics...while a Wizard 17 is busy using Wish or Shapechange or Gate to achieve ultimate cosmic power.

    TL;DR Bleakborn does a lot of great things for casters. Really just an absolute ton of them. But the one bad thing is does is really freaking bad. If the game only had casters in it, Bleakborn would be a -0 IMO - certainly nowhere near as bad for their level as the vast majority of -0s are, but even +0 feels like a ripoff tbh.

    Final vote for me: -0*


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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    I don't own the book, so I'm not clear: does the cold damage rider (with healing) apply only to their standard natural attack, or could it be piled on to any rider NAs they get? I'm wandering down the idea of one that grabbed Undead Meldshaper and went Totemist or something, piling on as many natural attacks as possible.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    It's from their touch. So if you really wanted to go ham on the cold natural attacks, I guess you could polymorph into a hydra or something.
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    So let me get this straight: any humanoid slain by a bleakborn become zombies under its control. Sometimes, though, they become bleakborn instead. And a humanoid slain by the heat draining aura rises as a "bleakborn spawn" (whatever that is), but not under its control?

    Also, how exactly do you permanently destroy them, since they can be healed from 0hp or below. Does destruction of the body stop this happening? Does it have to be destroyed in some manner not involving loss of HP?

    The more I hear about and re-read this monster entry, the more questions I have. This thing needed some serious editing before being published.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    So let me get this straight: any humanoid slain by a bleakborn become zombies under its control. Sometimes, though, they become bleakborn instead. And a humanoid slain by the heat draining aura rises as a "bleakborn spawn" (whatever that is), but not under its control?

    Also, how exactly do you permanently destroy them, since they can be healed from 0hp or below. Does destruction of the body stop this happening? Does it have to be destroyed in some manner not involving loss of HP?

    The more I hear about and re-read this monster entry, the more questions I have. This thing needed some serious editing before being published.
    I have a feeling this was at least partly designed as a "gotcha!"
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    So let me get this straight: any humanoid slain by a bleakborn become zombies under its control. Sometimes, though, they become bleakborn instead. And a humanoid slain by the heat draining aura rises as a "bleakborn spawn" (whatever that is), but not under its control?

    Also, how exactly do you permanently destroy them, since they can be healed from 0hp or below. Does destruction of the body stop this happening? Does it have to be destroyed in some manner not involving loss of HP?

    The more I hear about and re-read this monster entry, the more questions I have. This thing needed some serious editing before being published.
    Disintegrate would work, since it would still turn to dust if it hits 0 even if it makes the save. Sufficient dismemberment should as well, since they can't regenerate. (Though I suppose it may technically be possible for it too just turn into an immobile but still technically active pile of body parts.)

    As for what a "bleakborn spawn" is, I'm just assuming the fact that I can't find any reference to that anywhere else just means it was a poorly-worded reference to its zombie-spawning ability. Yes, I know I'm being naive.

    Would you guys like to know what the Libris Mortis errata says about bleakborns? It corrects the missing grapple bonus in its stat block. That's it.
    Last edited by Debatra; 2021-01-12 at 11:50 PM.
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    My vote is LA -0* for the bleakborn.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    -0* Rules wise it's a mess. Infinite spawning generally always get the *, and all its abilities are kind of all over. Great strength but horrid BaB, good mentals but piles of HD, weird aura and you cannot die. It's an odd one.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Also, how exactly do you permanently destroy them, since they can be healed from 0hp or below. Does destruction of the body stop this happening? Does it have to be destroyed in some manner not involving loss of HP?
    PAO the corpse into a humanoid corpse should work as it is technically still a humanoid corpse already. Baleful Polymorph in general is good strategy in dealing with this thing. As has been said a few times, disintegrate and other such things that destroy the corpse also work just fine.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    I don't think "corpse" would be the right word, since even ignoring that it's already undead it normally isn't destroyed. But Disintegrate should work yeah... and is like at least four levels away from when you're likely to meet one of these. And that depends on what your DM had for breakfast.

    Yeah, not exactly a fan.
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    My vote is for LA +0. I think -0 is too harsh here: 8 RHD is not that much, and it gets great ability modifiers and a few great benefits. I think especially being practically unkillable by normal means didn't get enough credit by quite a few here. At most campaigns, a clever player could utilize that a LOT.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Haven't voted in a while but +1 no asterisk it needs the minion spawning to be there. If your killing villagers I'm not seeing it matter and after level 8 you are going on adventures by themselves to get zombies that matter. +0* if you believe it needs an asterisk but I'm wondering what you are raising in the humanoids? What would this thing hunt down to be broken, serious question.

    Edit:Assuming the aura makes zombies
    Last edited by Sutr; 2021-01-14 at 03:37 PM.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    I don't see how this is -0 in the slightest. The absolute lowest it could be is +0.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    My vote is for LA +0. I think -0 is too harsh here: 8 RHD is not that much, and it gets great ability modifiers and a few great benefits. I think especially being practically unkillable by normal means didn't get enough credit by quite a few here. At most campaigns, a clever player could utilize that a LOT.
    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    I don't see how this is -0 in the slightest. The absolute lowest it could be is +0.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sutr View Post
    Haven't voted in a while but +1 no asterisk it needs the minion spawning to be there. If your killing villagers I'm not seeing it matter and after level 8 you are going on adventures by themselves to get zombies that matter. +0* if you believe it needs an asterisk but I'm wondering what you are raising in the humanoids? What would this thing hunt down to be broken, serious question.
    The issue that is making this * is Heat Draining Aura as the text seems to suggest you spawn Bleakborn whenever you kill a humanoid with the aura, this would very easily create a bleakalypse since walking into any urban area would kill pretty much all the level 1 npcs in a round. That is a major issue, and * means we rate the creature without the offending ability. If we get rid of Heat Draining Aura we also have to get rid of Contingent healing 10 since it is a rider on Heat Draining Aura and without either of these abilities Bleakborn is been fairly gimped making it -0*.

    I agree with you all of you that if we leave it alone its probably sitting around +0/+1 but that aura is a major issue similar to shadow's spawning ability that should be addressed, this one would be a fairly easy homebrew fix just simply making Heat Draining Aura spawn zombies but as is the language of the ability leans towards spawning uncontrolled bleakborn...

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Once again, you're interpreting the asterisk in the harshest manner possible. It's pointless even pretending to rate these creatures if we keep stripping out their unique abilities because they're difficult to handle.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    Once again, you're interpreting the asterisk in the harshest manner possible. It's pointless even pretending to rate these creatures if we keep stripping out their unique abilities because they're difficult to handle.
    The unfortunate truth, though, is some creatures simply are too problematic or virtually unplayable as written. I think the asterisk is a good device to signal that DMs need to be aware of potential issues if they allow the creature in question as characters.

    It would be interesting to run some kind of play-by-post/forum campaign with a party made up of asterisked monsters to see how they play out...

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    Once again, you're interpreting the asterisk in the harshest manner possible. It's pointless even pretending to rate these creatures if we keep stripping out their unique abilities because they're difficult to handle.
    That is what the asterisk means, we need to be consistent with the way we use the asterisk as we are consistent with other things in our rating system. Here is what using the asterisk means inside this thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Some monsters and templates may be marked with an asterisk. In such a case, the rated material has abilities that are not simply strong, but entirely game-breaking. Examples include an efreeti's ability to grant essentially unlimited free Wishes, or a nightmare's ability to use ridiculously powerful high-level spells at-will at a very low ECL.

    In such a case, no LA is going to make these monsters truly balanced, with the resulting PCs being either one-trick ponies or overpowered abominations. Instead, they will be rated as if they didn't possess the offending ability, with the asterisk indicating the actual statblock cannot be rated properly. Anyone wanting to play these creatures is advised to simply do away with the ability in question.
    So unless we change what the asterisk means (in which case we must go back and rerate all asterisk'ed monsters) that is the way I will continue interpreting it and you should as well. If you think there is an LA it functions just fine with without an asterisk then great give that LA. However, the asterisk specifically means we are dumping the offending ability and rating it as if it didn't have said ability.

    There is already RAW backing for doing this with monsters such as Pixies being rated differently based on having irresistible dance, summoned monsters not being able to summon other monsters or shadowdancer's shadow not being able to spawn shadows.
    Last edited by liquidformat; 2021-01-13 at 03:22 PM.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    The unfortunate truth, though, is some creatures simply are too problematic or virtually unplayable as written. I think the asterisk is a good device to signal that DMs need to be aware of potential issues if they allow the creature in question as characters.

    It would be interesting to run some kind of play-by-post/forum campaign with a party made up of asterisked monsters to see how they play out...
    I'm playing a vampire lord yathrinshee in an actual game here ITP where the campaign goal is taking over the world. It's a gestalt-ish game using the Oslecamo monster classes. Long story short, I have all my spawn-generating abilities, including powerful necromancy magic, but a lot of it's being relegated to the background as "this fortress is being kept in good repair by all the zombies and wights and vampires I made when we were here", to avoid having to actually deal with having an army of minions in every fight. Uncapped spawning abilities are leadership by another name, which is to say that they can either be cool fluff that lets you not worry about certain background stuff, or they can be the thing that's actually incapable of not breaking the campaign over your knee.

    EDIT: You may notice that "the ability is only really useful in the background" is, for all purposes but the big-picture story, functionally identical to how the game would be going if I didn't have those spawning abilities.

    ...well, that's not quite true either. Whenever we pick a fight, I'm weighing in the back of my head whether they'd be more useful to the story as themselves or as undead versions of themselves. Because I'm a yathrinshee, I default to "more useful dead", but the party doesn't always agree. If I didn't have my spawning abilities, we'd have to got the diplomatic route every time to get the allies we need.

    So in a weird roundabout fashion, spawning abilities let me "fill" the role of party face.
    Last edited by AvatarVecna; 2021-01-13 at 03:22 PM.


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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    The issue that is making this * is Heat Draining Aura as the text seems to suggest you spawn Bleakborn whenever you kill a humanoid with the aura, this would very easily create a bleakalypse since walking into any urban area would kill pretty much all the level 1 npcs in a round. That is a major issue, and * means we rate the creature without the offending ability. If we get rid of Heat Draining Aura we also have to get rid of Contingent healing 10 since it is a rider on Heat Draining Aura and without either of these abilities Bleakborn is been fairly gimped making it -0*.
    I forgot the asterisk on mine.

    My view was that it is completely reasonable to assume the offending ability is the ability to raise Bleakborn. Removing that does not necessitate removing the aura, or the healing. I think the ability to raise more Bleakborn, which is clearly the only problematic part, is distinct enough to be removed on its own. It's not really tethered with the aura itself in a way that would make it hard to distinguish.

    Removing half of the bleakborn capabilities when you could have just as easily remove the issue in an uncomplicated and straightforward way doesn't seem sensible, IMO.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    There's more than one way to interpret "remove the offending ability" and I stand by saying that we should interpret stat-blocks as fairly as possible when removing problematic abilities.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    That is what the asterisk means, we need to be consistent with the way we use the asterisk as we are consistent with other things in our rating system. Here is what using the asterisk means inside this thread:

    So unless we change what the asterisk means (in which case we must go back and rerate all asterisk'ed monsters) that is the way I will continue interpreting it and you should as well. If you think there is an LA it functions just fine with without an asterisk then great give that LA. However, the asterisk specifically means we are dumping the offending ability and rating it as if it didn't have said ability.

    There is already RAW backing for doing this with monsters such as Pixies being rated differently based on having irresistible dance, summoned monsters not being able to summon other monsters or shadowdancer's shadow not being able to spawn shadows.
    Like I said upthread, slavish devotion to the semantics of this rule is not going to make our results any more consistent, because it's the monsters themselves that are written inconsistently. For example, the way the vampire is written, the "offending ability" that we removed encompassed only the uncapped spawn-creation effect, so the vampire lost its uncapped spawn-creation without losing any of the abilities that fed into it (Energy Drain and Blood Drain). But, the bleakborn isn't written with its abilities so neatly parsed out, so you're talking about removing its uncapped spawn creation effect and all mechanics that are peripherally related to it.

    Applying the rule with the kind of consistency you've advocating will have us surgically clipping something off the top of one monster, and completely gutting another one. I don't see how you think this is going to be more consistent than trying to apply some common sense to the problem.
    Last edited by Blue Jay; 2021-01-13 at 09:29 PM.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    The issue that is making this * is Heat Draining Aura as the text seems to suggest you spawn Bleakborn whenever you kill a humanoid with the aura, this would very easily create a bleakalypse since walking into any urban area would kill pretty much all the level 1 npcs in a round. That is a major issue, and * means we rate the creature without the offending ability. If we get rid of Heat Draining Aura we also have to get rid of Contingent healing 10 since it is a rider on Heat Draining Aura and without either of these abilities Bleakborn is been fairly gimped making it -0*.

    I agree with you all of you that if we leave it alone its probably sitting around +0/+1 but that aura is a major issue similar to shadow's spawning ability that should be addressed, this one would be a fairly easy homebrew fix just simply making Heat Draining Aura spawn zombies but as is the language of the ability leans towards spawning uncontrolled bleakborn...
    Why would we get rid of the entire aura instead of just the spawning ability?

    EDIT: And I'm also not convinced that one line means it doesn't heal from negative energy, et al. Now that the specific line has been pointed out, it actually just makes me think it works like fast healing with a prerequisite.
    Last edited by Debatra; 2021-01-14 at 05:40 AM.
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    There's more than one way to interpret "remove the offending ability" and I stand by saying that we should interpret stat-blocks as fairly as possible when removing problematic abilities.
    No there is not. And the fairest way is to be consistent across the board, not to pick and choose what the asterisk means each time we have a situation that requires an asterisk. Changing what the asterisk means each time we have a problematic creature is in no way fair nor consistent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Debatra View Post
    Why would we get rid of the entire aura instead of just the spawning ability?

    EDIT: And I'm also not convinced that one line means it doesn't heal from negative energy, et al. Now that the specific line has been pointed out, it actually just makes me think it works like fast healing with a prerequisite.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jay View Post
    Like I said upthread, slavish devotion to the semantics of this rule is not going to make our results any more consistent, because it's the monsters themselves that are written inconsistently. For example, the way the vampire is written, the "offending ability" that we removed encompassed only the uncapped spawn-creation effect, so the vampire lost its uncapped spawn-creation without losing any of the abilities that fed into it (Energy Drain and Blood Drain). But, the bleakborn isn't written with its abilities so neatly parsed out, so you're talking about removing its uncapped spawn creation effect and all mechanics that are peripherally related to it.

    Applying the rule with the kind of consistency you've advocating will have us surgically clipping something off the top of one monster, and completely gutting another one. I don't see how you think this is going to be more consistent than trying to apply some common sense to the problem.
    The problematic ability for a vampire was a standalone ability and not a subset of an ability. That is dramatically different. If we want to change what asterisk means that is fine but as is the asterisk means scrapping the entire offending ability and that is how we have been rating creatures. It hasn't been a big deal in the past because as you point out many of the offending abilities are self insolated.

    It is also fine if you want to say that the Aura is referring to the zombie spawning ability just doing a crap job of doing so and therefore doesn't need an asterisk. However, until we change what using an asterisk means we should be rating it as if the offending ability was removed when using an asterisk.

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