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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Bloodmote cloud, LA -0. I don't think it needs any further explanation here.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Page 300 of the Monster Manual; Calculating Saving Throw DCs
    Charisma: Use Charisma for anything pitting the creature’s will against an opponent: gaze attacks, charms, compulsions, or energy drain. The creature’s Charisma modifier affects the save DC for any spell-like abilities it has (no matter what form they take). Also use Charisma for any DC that normally would be based on an ability score the creature does not have. For example, undead creatures have no Constitution score, so any poison attacks they have would use Charisma to determine the save DC.
    So the swarm does use it's charisma for it's distraction DC.

    Does not change the rating at all though. -0
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  3. - Top - End - #213
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Normally yes, but the book specifically says it's Con-based this time, and calculates it accordingly. Maybe some editor made a mistake there, but that's what it says and the errata is silent on it.

    Edit to avoid triple-posting: And we have an unsurprising -0. See you in a little bit with the Bone Rat Swarm.
    Last edited by Debatra; 2021-01-19 at 08:08 PM.
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Swarms have a bunch of immunities, but also a limited ability to do anything. On the bright side, they don't need to make attack rolls, so you won't waste much of anyone else's time with your turns.
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  5. - Top - End - #215
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Bone Rat Swarm

    Size & Type: Tiny Undead (Swarm)
    HD: 4
    Speed: 15', Climb 15'
    Ability Scores: Str -8, Dex +6, Con -, Int -, Wis +0, Cha -10 - Net -12, Two big penalties
    Natural Armor: 0
    Natural Weapons: Swarm (1d6)
    Skill List: -
    Body Shape: Rat Swarm
    Speech (Languages): No
    CR: 3
    WotC LA: -
    Our LA: -0

    On top of half-damage from piercing and slashing that comes from being a swarm of Tiny creatures, these skeletal undead also get DR 5/bludgeoning. They're also immune to cold. Like the Bloodmote Cloud before it, the DC for a Bone Rat Swarm's Distraction ability is explicitly called out as being Con-based. But this case of specific-trumps-general will almost always work in both creatures' favor, as the normal rule Falontani mentioned above would usually backfire given the -10 to Charisma they also have in common.

    They don't have anything else fancy going for them. On one hand, that's a lot more reasonable for four RHD than ten. On the other, it's probably still not worth it for a swarm that can't fly.

    Compared to the normal rat swarm (which we gave -0), you get +2 Dex, -2 Wis, -1 Cha (which is effectively -2 Cha because of how the racial modifiers are calculated) change your Type from Animal to Undead (better HD, worse BAB, completely flip your saves), lose low-light vision, gain 60' Darkvision, lose your Con and filth fever, gain DR 5/B and cold immunity. Apparently all that is worth +1 CR, but is it worth getting to +0?
    Last edited by Debatra; 2021-01-21 at 09:42 PM.
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  6. - Top - End - #216
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    When I compare the bone rat swarm to the living rat swarm, I think the biggest thing the bone rats get is the new pile of immunities for being undead. But swarm immunities already cover a lot of ground in a way that's not easy to wrap my brain around, so I'm not sure I can adequately judge how big of a difference the undead immunities will make.

    The biggest thing you give up, I think, is probably Scent. The disease isn't a very effective contribution to the living swarm's toolkit, low-light vision helps in the types of situations that most DMs will probably just gloss over anyway, and Weapon Finesse is a neat bonus feat, but swarms can't really use it anyway.

    The bone rat swarm is definitely a bit of an upgrade (in general) from the living rat swarm, but I still don't think it makes it to break-even territory.

    I vote LA -0 for the bone rat swarm.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jay View Post
    When I compare the bone rat swarm to the living rat swarm, I think the biggest thing the bone rats get is the new pile of immunities for being undead. But swarm immunities already cover a lot of ground in a way that's not easy to wrap my brain around, so I'm not sure I can adequately judge how big of a difference the undead immunities will make.

    The biggest thing you give up, I think, is probably Scent. The disease isn't a very effective contribution to the living swarm's toolkit, low-light vision helps in the types of situations that most DMs will probably just gloss over anyway, and Weapon Finesse is a neat bonus feat, but swarms can't really use it anyway.

    The bone rat swarm is definitely a bit of an upgrade (in general) from the living rat swarm, but I still don't think it makes it to break-even territory.

    I vote LA -0 for the bone rat swarm.
    Agreed, with all points. LA -0 from me as well.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    It definitely deserves the CR increase, but +0 still seems farfetched. My vote is for -0.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Debatra View Post
    Size & Type: Tiny Udnead (Swarm)
    You have a typo in your stat-block.

    As for the creature(s), it has two non-abilities, two massive penalties and it's mindless. I'm not sure that even 2 RHD would be sufficient to avoid LA -0.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Debatra View Post
    On top of half-damage from piercing and slashing that comes from being a swarm of Tiny creatures, these skeletal undead also get DR 5/bludgeoning.
    Out of curiosity, is there RAW for what order that goes in? If someone stabs a bone rat swarm for 10 damage, do they take two damage ([10-5]/2) or zero ([10/2]-5)?


    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Jay View Post
    When I compare the bone rat swarm to the living rat swarm, I think the biggest thing the bone rats get is the new pile of immunities for being undead. But swarm immunities already cover a lot of ground in a way that's not easy to wrap my brain around, so I'm not sure I can adequately judge how big of a difference the undead immunities will make.
    The two sets of immunities don't overlap that much. There is some overlap—mind-affecting effects that target a single creature, for instance—but they mostly defend against different things.
    But a big pile of immunities is only worthwhile if enemies have a reason to target you. Bone rats are tough, but they don't have much they can do and I'm not sure how you can advance one. A swarm's innate abilities need to be something special (or tacked onto few enough RHD that their swarm damage is still meaningful) to convince me it isn't -0.
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  11. - Top - End - #221
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    Out of curiosity, is there RAW for what order that goes in? If someone stabs a bone rat swarm for 10 damage, do they take two damage ([10-5]/2) or zero ([10/2]-5)?
    Unless otherwise specified, you apply effects in whatever order is most beneficial to you. So an attack that would normally deal ten slashing and/or piercing damage does zero to a BRS.

    What I'm less certain of is a mixed-damage weapon like a morningstar. For DR, the rule is clear. If the attack deals bludgeoning damage, it goes through. But the swarm trait is "half damage from slashing and piercing weapons", not "half damage except from bludgeoning weapons".
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  12. - Top - End - #222
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    I think I'd be okay with morningstars going through the swarm resistance, but that's not necessarily RAW I think.
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Debatra View Post
    Unless otherwise specified, you apply effects in whatever order is most beneficial to you. So an attack that would normally deal ten slashing and/or piercing damage does zero to a BRS.

    What I'm less certain of is a mixed-damage weapon like a morningstar. For DR, the rule is clear. If the attack deals bludgeoning damage, it goes through. But the swarm trait is "half damage from slashing and piercing weapons", not "half damage except from bludgeoning weapons".
    It does have damage from the piercing but full damage from the bludgeoning so it would still be full damage...

    Anyways BRS might be nigh unkillable but they are also nighunusably useless so -0 LA seems fine here.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Debatra View Post
    Unless otherwise specified, you apply effects in whatever order is most beneficial to you.
    Really? Could you say where that principle is established?

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Caelestion View Post
    Really? Could you say where that principle is established?
    I would love to... But I can't seem to find it. I'm fairly confident I didn't just make that up one day, but now I guess I can't be sure.

    I've asked the Simple RAW thread. Though I don't think either answer would save this thing from the -0 pile, it's still good to know in case it matters for some future monster. (Or you know... just in general.)
    Last edited by Debatra; 2021-01-21 at 03:00 PM.
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Debatra View Post
    I would love to... But I can't seem to find it. I'm fairly confident I didn't just make that up one day, but now I guess I can't be sure.
    Yeah, I have seen this too.

    I think it's something like "Apply modifiers in whichever order is most beneficial for the player" or something like that...

    [edit] FAQ has some some relevant entries, FWIW (underlining mine):

    When do “add-on” effects such as poison occur? For example, if an assassin delivers a death attack with a weapon bearing wyvern poison, does the poison take effect first, thus potentially reducing the target’s Fortitude save against the death attack?
    As a general guideline, whenever the rules don’t stipulate an order of operations for special effects (such as spells or special abilities), you should apply them in the order that’s most beneficial to the “controller” of the effect. In this case, the assassin is the “controller” of both the poison and the death attack, so he’d most likely choose for the poison to take effect first, and then the death attack.
    If a monster has resistance and vulnerability to the same kind of damage (such as fire), which effect is applied first? And when does the saving throw come in?
    Always roll a saving throw before applying any effects that would increase or reduce the damage dealt. For example, if a frost giant is struck by a fireball that would deal 35 points of damage, it would roll its Reflex save, then apply its vulnerability to fire after determining how much damage the fireball would normally deal. If the save failed, the frost giant would take 52 points of damage: 35 + one-half of 35 (17.5, rounded down to 17). A successful save would mean the frost giant suffered only 25 points of damage: one-half of 35 rounded down (17), plus one-half of 17 rounded down (8).
    If the creature has both resistance and vulnerability to the same kind of damage, apply the resistance (which reduces the damage dealt by the effect) before applying the vulnerability(which increases the damage taken by the creature). For example, imagine our frost giant wore a ring of minor fire resistance (granting resistance to fire 10). If the save failed, the frost giant would take 37 points of fire damage: 35 (fireball) –10 (resistance to fire 10) = 25, plus one-half of 25 (12.5, rounded down to 12). If the save succeeded, the frost giant would take only 10 points of damage: 17 (half damage from the fireball, rounded down) – 10 (resistance to fire 10) = 7, plus one-half of 7 (3.5, rounded down to 3).
    As a general guideline, whenever the rules don’t stipulate an order of operations for special effects (such as spells or special abilities), you should apply them in the order that’s most beneficial to the creature. In the case of damage, this typically means applying any damage-reducing effects first, before applying any effects that would increase damage.
    So going by that second entry, you would halve the damage first, then apply the DR. As usual, FAQ is generally not considered RAW, but the second, in relation to damage, tends to make sense to me. [/edit]

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    The two FAQs quoted seem to contradict each other.

    In the first, the attacker (the assassin) gets to choose whichever order is most beneficial—first poison (to weaken Fort save), then death (to murder). The victim doesn't get a choice; it would be better for them if the death effect was applied first (oddly enough), but it isn't.
    In the second, the target (the frost giant) gets to choose whichever order is most beneficial—first resistance then vulnerability (which reduces the total damage taken). The caster doesn't get a choice; it would be better for them if the fire vulnerability was applied first, but it isn't.

    It's hard to see how these fit into a single general rule. Either there's some distinction between "direct" effects which the attacker gets to determine activation order and indirect ones where they don't (shanking vs. fireballing); whoever has the "most special" ability chooses how it's applied (death effect trumps Fort save, fire vulnerability trumps spellcasting); or the FAQs are the result of individual people answering individual questions to fill in the gaps where centralized direction was lacking.

    TL;DR: I'm not sure what, exactly, Thurbane thinks makes sense.
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    The two FAQs quoted seem to contradict each other.

    In the first, the attacker (the assassin) gets to choose whichever order is most beneficial—first poison (to weaken Fort save), then death (to murder). The victim doesn't get a choice; it would be better for them if the death effect was applied first (oddly enough), but it isn't.
    In the second, the target (the frost giant) gets to choose whichever order is most beneficial—first resistance then vulnerability (which reduces the total damage taken). The caster doesn't get a choice; it would be better for them if the fire vulnerability was applied first, but it isn't.

    It's hard to see how these fit into a single general rule. Either there's some distinction between "direct" effects which the attacker gets to determine activation order and indirect ones where they don't (shanking vs. fireballing); whoever has the "most special" ability chooses how it's applied (death effect trumps Fort save, fire vulnerability trumps spellcasting); or the FAQs are the result of individual people answering individual questions to fill in the gaps where centralized direction was lacking.

    TL;DR: I'm not sure what, exactly, Thurbane thinks makes sense.
    I think the rule that can be applied there is that each creature can apply their own abilities in whatever order works best. In the first case, it's the assassin's poison and the assassin's death attack, in the second, all the abilities belong to the frost giant, so the giant applies them in the order that's best for the giant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWyrmGold View Post
    TL;DR: I'm not sure what, exactly, Thurbane thinks makes sense.
    Ah, I've missed our sparkling repartee...

    Yes, I was unclear, I should have said I agree with the second example, which more directly relates to damage. I found that example after I'd posted the first, and should have edited better.

    Also do note that it refers to "special effects (such as spells or special abilities)": I'm not sure melee damage inflicted counts as such.

    Quote Originally Posted by TiaC View Post
    I think the rule that can be applied there is that each creature can apply their own abilities in whatever order works best. In the first case, it's the assassin's poison and the assassin's death attack, in the second, all the abilities belong to the frost giant, so the giant applies them in the order that's best for the giant.
    Indeed.

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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by TiaC View Post
    I think the rule that can be applied there is that each creature can apply their own abilities in whatever order works best. In the first case, it's the assassin's poison and the assassin's death attack, in the second, all the abilities belong to the frost giant, so the giant applies them in the order that's best for the giant.
    Alright, that makes sense.

    Let's hope we never encounter an edge case where both parties have special abilities where the order of application is relevant...
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Well presumably they would just control the order of their own abilities.

    And either way, the Bone Rat Swarm gets another fairly easy-0. Boneyard is next up.
    Last edited by Debatra; 2021-01-21 at 09:43 PM.
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Oh boy, the ginormous undead slinky. Let's see how high an LA it's going to get.
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Boneyard

    Size & Type: Huge Undead
    HD: 17
    Speed: 20', fly 60' (Good)
    Ability Scores: Str +20, Dex +4, Con -, Int +8, Wis +10, Cha +8 - Net +50, no penalties
    Natural Armor: 20
    Natural Weapons: One Primary Bite (2d8)
    Skill List: Balance, Climb, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot
    Body Shape: Various (see below)
    Speech (Languages): Yes (Common, Terran, Abyssal)
    CR: 14
    WotC LA: -
    Our LA: +0

    It can arrange the mass of bones that make up its body into just about any shape, from a harmless pile of debris to a large skeletal serpent "or some other form of its choice". Body slots, manipulative digits, etc. shouldn't be an issue. EDIT: I suppose I should have been clearer that this is not some special ability, but just the description of what it can look like. It has zero mechanical impact.

    DR 10/- and fast healing 10 make for some decent durability against anything that manages to hit past its massive 20 natural armor. Cold immunity is always nice, and SR 24 is still relevant at this level, though not exactly reliable. It also has Improved Grab for Large or smaller creatures.

    It's Bone Subsumption forces any creature with a skeletal structure that it bites to make a Cha-based Fortitude save or take 2d4 damage to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution as some of its bones are pulled from its body to merge with the Boneyard. This even explicitly works on undead (which make will saves instead of Fortitude). This also feeds its Inescapable Craving for bones. Once per day it can use bones from its own mass to summon either 3-6 Troll skeletons or 2-4 Adult Red Dragon skeletons. They take 1d10 rounds to form and last an hour.

    And now for the big one. Its "Utter Subsumption" ability. With three successful Grapple checks (one to establish the grapple, one to pin, and a final one to use the ability), it can instantly kill its target with no save. While one may reason that it works on undead and only creatures with a skeletal system because of Bone Subsumption, neither of those two points are made explicit in the ability's description. (Though the text does reference ripping every bone from the target's body, so you could interpret having them as a requirement.) On one hand, a no-save-just-die ability is a bit more reasonable at 17th-level than anywhere else, and Mind Flayers weren't given the asterisk for their similar Extract ability. On the other hand, Illithids seem to have dodged the asterisk (for that specific ability anyway) mainly because they aren't amazing grapplers right out of the box, and a Huge creature with +20 Str that deals Str damage does a bit better in that area than a Medium creature with +2 Str.
    Last edited by Debatra; 2021-01-24 at 03:19 PM.
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  24. - Top - End - #234
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Okay, this isn't actually as horrible as I imagined, but Wizard-level hit points and arguably even less utility than a Barbarian doesn't exactly sound promising. At least you're not murdering commoners by literally existing like some of the past few.
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Debatra View Post
    Well presumably they would just control the order of their own abilities.
    No, I mean the order of abilities of different people.

    Like, to pick an example that's easy to come up with and explain, a snark's acid breath deals double damage against humanoids of the (grumpkin) subtype, but the target grumpkin has a ring of acid resistance. Does the doubling apply before or after the resistance? Does the grumpkin get to decide the order, or the snark?


    Quote Originally Posted by Debatra View Post
    And now for the big one. Its "Utter Subsumption" ability. With three successful Grapple checks (one to establish the grapple, one to pin, and a final one to use the ability), it can instantly kill its target with no save. [...] On one hand, a no-save-just-die ability is a bit more reasonable at 17th-level than anywhere else, and Mind Flayers weren't given the asterisk for their similar Extract ability. On the other hand, Illithids seem to have dodged the asterisk (for that specific ability anyway) mainly because they aren't amazing grapplers right out of the box, and a Huge creature with +20 Str that deals Str damage does a bit better in that area than a Medium creature with +2 Str.
    At best, you're spending three rounds to kill one target. That's not terrible, but what could a 17th-level martial character accomplish with three whole rounds? I imagine they could kill multiple smaller targets, or at least put a significant dent in a boss with three full attacks. (Not to mention that important high-level enemies can probably do something to respond to being grappled.)

    I'm not sure whether the boneyard deserves a level adjustment or not. However, I can be fairly certain of two things:
    1. Utter Subsumption isn't enough to be worth an asterisk at this level.
    2. Utter Subsumption is probably enough to avoid a -0. Maybe not by much, but it's something distinct and useful when compared to fellow martial characters. (Obviously it sucks compared to 9th-level spells, but we only compare a 17 HD monster to that when it casts high-level spells.)
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  26. - Top - End - #236
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    I like that they speak Terran for some reason. Is it because bones are buried in a boneyard? Thus dirt, thus Earth, thus you can talk to outsiders from the Elemental Plane of Earth? IDK if 17 Undead RHD for a grappler (admittedly a decent one with a no-save kill) is worth LA. +0
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Quote Originally Posted by Luccan View Post
    I like that they speak Terran for some reason. Is it because bones are buried in a boneyard? Thus dirt, thus Earth, thus you can talk to outsiders from the Elemental Plane of Earth? IDK if 17 Undead RHD for a grappler (admittedly a decent one with a no-save kill) is worth LA.
    Frankly, if you wanted to give them a non-outsider language I can hardly think of a better one aside from maybe Draconic.
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  28. - Top - End - #238
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    Post Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    OK, lets look at this sucker:

    Boneyard

    • Huge Undead (10 ft reach)
    • 17 RHD (d12hp, poor BAB, 1 good save, 4 skill points/"level")
    • 20 ft speed, fly 60 ft (good): flight is always nice.
    • +20 natural AC: decent.
    • Bite 2d8 (+ bone subsumption)
    • Bone subsumption: On a bite, Fort save (or will save for undead) or take 2d4 Con, Dex and Str damage. Decent rider effect. Only works on creatures with skeletal structure, but that will be a large majority of foes.
    • Improved grab: usual fare for large melee monsters.
    • Summon skeletons: once/day, create 3-6 troll skeletons, or 2-4 young adult red dragon skeletons. Takes 1d10 rounds, and they last for 1 hour. Not terrible, but also not amazing for minionmancy at this level.
    • Utter subsumption: auto kill enemies after a couple of grapple checks. Nice, if you can pull it off.
    • DR 10/-: not bad.
    • Darkvision 6o ft.
    • Fast healing 10: decent.
    • Immunity to cold.
    • Inescapable craving: for bones, satisfied by bone subsumption. You could always bite your own created skeletons, if you needed to.
    • SR 24: a little low for you level, and doesn't scale.
    • Undead traits.
    • Str +20, Dex +4, Con --, Int +8, Wis +10, Cha +8: net +50, one non-ability. Not bad.
    • Small-ish, but generally useful, skill list.

    Weird, huge, body type (I'm going to slightly disagree with the chair here: the text is a bit quiet on how far their form shifting goes, and I still think you'll run into item slot issues, and possibly issues manipulating items). Can speak, which is always a plus.

    It's basically bite/grapple/kill chassis. No Con to hp hurts, but DR and FH offset this a little. What really hurts is 17HD worth of poor BAB - but again, this is offset somewhat by good Str and your huge size. You are pretty much going to be a one trick pony, so maybe Swordage (or other initiator) would be your best progression. Your aiblity to "summon" skeletons is handy, but a little underpowered at your level of play.

    At this point I'll vote a tentative LA +0, but I can also see -0 being more appropriate.

  29. - Top - End - #239
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    Oh right, they have impenetrable DR(aside from bypassing it entirely, which isn't unheard of but not terribly common either unless your DM frequently uses ToB) and Fast Healing. I guess that's better than nothing.

    Incidentally it's easy to think that these things would be mindless or at least not that smart, but they actually have good mental stats. Not like they'd be much for social interaction for the most part, but they're not dumb brutes. Smart brutes, maybe, but still.
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  30. - Top - End - #240
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    Default Re: LA Assignment Thread X: New Year, New Management, Same Old Unplayable Monsters

    I'm kind of a fan of the boneyard as a creature concept, but I'm not sure the mechanics get there. The numbers aren't far off the expected (I "expect" ~+3.5 in ability boosts and +1 natural armor / level for a melee brute monster), but one melee attack is pretty bad for this level, even with the ability-damage rider effect. The skeleton summoning is kind of neat, but it's not very versatile. It grapples okay, and can grapple opponents to death (literally); but the 17 undead hit dice with poor BAB are a handicap for a grappler. It was the same problem with the hullathoin from Fiend Folio. In fact, the hullathoin and boneyard make for a very interesting comparison, because these two monsters are built with very similar premises, and have quite similar numbers. I think the hullathoin comes out on top, because it has a wider range of options, and its minionmancy is more diverse and more extensive; but the boneyard could probably hold its own in a one-on-one.

    In the end, if the hullathoin couldn't make it to LA +0, I just don't think the boneyard has enough to get there either, so I'm voting LA -0 for the boneyard.

    Incidentally, I have a remake of the boneyard ready, but I haven't posted it in my homebrew Bestiary thread yet, because I'm not totally satisfied with it, and I want to tinker some more. Maybe I'll get to that soon, now that we're covering it here.

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