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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default How to steal without stealing

    So I need suggestions for how to aquire items from a shot, without buying them!

    My character is LE, and while that does not mean he cannot break the rules at all, it does mean that I'm first going to try a more "lawful" approach.

    My definition of my characters aligment is a mix of "The Prince" and "The Executive" as described here. None of them fit the bill perfectly but these two comes reasonably close. Naturally I do consider the official definition too but its not completly dominating my way of viewing LE.

    So, what would be some cool, interesting, fitting way of gaining access to items which does not belong to me, which I can't afford to buy, but want access to now?

    Specifically I'm talking potiond and scrolls, so its not like I'm breaking the game by gaining access to these things, but its a great help for sure.


    Any suggestions which fit my alighment would be great since I want to try and adhere to the idea of LE!


    Thanks in advance!
    Quote Originally Posted by chaotic stupid View Post
    tippy's posted, thread's over now

    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to steal without stealing

    Quote Originally Posted by Melcar View Post
    So I need suggestions for how to aquire items from a shot, without buying them!

    My character is LE, and while that does not mean he cannot break the rules at all, it does mean that I'm first going to try a more "lawful" approach.

    My definition of my characters aligment is a mix of "The Prince" and "The Executive" as described here. None of them fit the bill perfectly but these two comes reasonably close. Naturally I do consider the official definition too but its not completly dominating my way of viewing LE.

    So, what would be some cool, interesting, fitting way of gaining access to items which does not belong to me, which I can't afford to buy, but want access to now?

    Specifically I'm talking potiond and scrolls, so its not like I'm breaking the game by gaining access to these things, but its a great help for sure.


    Any suggestions which fit my alighment would be great since I want to try and adhere to the idea of LE!


    Thanks in advance!
    Is this a real character or are we making your character?

    Level of Character?

    Class of Character?

    Trustworthy partners in crime?

    Other information that we are missing?

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: How to steal without stealing

    Quote Originally Posted by MR_Andersom View Post
    Is this a real character or are we making your character?

    Level of Character?

    Class of Character?

    Trustworthy partners in crime?

    Other information that we are missing?
    No, its a real character for a real campaign. One of quite a few I'm playing in different campaigns at the moment...

    He's level 7, he's a Marshal, he only really has his followers as trusted criminals in arms... rest of party are goody goody!

    There is not much to say... the concept is young noble, gathering followers for his band of merry men... Sort of. He has Leadership, and he is gathering followers, so he's sort of a mix of commander/diplomancer... not a new concept by any means... we hear about it like every other week here, but its fairly new to me.

    My problem are severely limited resources. So I somehow wants to get hold of scrolls and potions, but I simply can't afford to buy them. What do?

    Again, I want to try and adhere to my alignment as much as possible, without it becoming too prescriptive!
    Quote Originally Posted by chaotic stupid View Post
    tippy's posted, thread's over now

    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to steal without stealing

    Blackmail?

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Batcathat's Avatar

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    Default Re: How to steal without stealing

    You mention he's a noble, does that come with any land or subjects? Harshly taxing (think Prince John of Robin Hood fame) and otherwise exploiting the common people seems like a classic LE way of making money. Not illegal, but very immoral

    If not that, maybe convincing people to sponsor him in some way? It sounds like he's pretty charismatic so it shouldn't be that hard to charm some rich people into some bad deals (maybe they give him money now and profit from it way in the future?). Again, legal but sketchy.

    A variant of that might be to find some rich old lady (or rich old man, if that's socially acceptable in-universe) and straight up marry them for their money. There's always the option of them having some tragic accident soon after the wedding (though that part might not be very Lawful).
    Last edited by Batcathat; 2021-01-03 at 07:52 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Default Re: How to steal without stealing

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    There's always the option of them having some tragic accident soon after the wedding (though that part might not be very Lawful).
    There are perfectly legal ways for them to overexert themselves too, if you need [winkyface].

    EDIT: Remove typo from quote that wasn't in actual quote but was because of my sausage fingers.
    Last edited by FrogInATopHat; 2021-01-03 at 11:56 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    MaxiDuRaritry's Avatar

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    Default Re: How to steal without stealing

    There's always protection rackets.

    Depending on the laws of the land, and you being a noble and all, you could just kill them and take the money as spoils. Killing isn't stealing, after all, and it might not even technically be murder, even*.





    *The definition of murder is "illegal killing."

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to steal without stealing

    Keep in mind that lawful doesn't necessarily mean following the laws of the land you're living in. It means having rules that you hold yourself to - they could be the local laws, a personal code of honor, rules set for you by a specific authority figure, etc.

    For example, I'd argue that Dexter Morgan from the TV series Dexter is Lawful alignment, but he regularly breaks the law. He's a serial killer who has a strict personal code for selecting victims that was inspired by the teachings of his adopted father. He only kills people who have committed a certain severity of crimes vs innocent victims and the justice system has failed to give them sufficient retribution. It's to the point where, when a close friend and overall good person asks him to mercy-kill her, he seriously agonizes about it not so much because he doesn't want her to die (she's dying of cancer and in intense pain) but because his code of who to kill doesn't cover this situation.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: How to steal without stealing

    So you are already the head of a 'merry band of criminals' so you clearly aren't following the law of the land but the 'code of your band of criminals' or something there in. With that said, here are some ideas off the top of my head.

    - demand protection payment
    - request sponsorship (pretty much the same as above but you are making them think they are doing it out of the kindness of their heart rather than being extorted)
    - forge documents to make it look like they are selling stolen merchandise then 'confiscate' said merchandise
    - if they are part of your noble dutchy then demand taxation in the form of goods
    - if not everyone realizes that you are the head of your merry band of criminals you could do the crime and set someone up as the fall guys and confiscate the merchandise as evidence.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to steal without stealing

    "Gee. This is a nice shop here. Be a shame if anything happened to it. Now, I'm going to go fight a dragon. Probably be some collateral damage- some buildings destroyed, livelihoods ruined. Of course, anything you might be able to donate to the cause will let me control the situation more. Not perfect, but, hey, when I'm trying to steer that dragon around, I'll remember who my friends are."
    ***
    "Look, friend, this is an opportunity you can't afford to turn down. For a simple donation of some goods, I'll make sure everyone knows that Possum Pete's Potion 'Porium is the best, the finest, and the only choice of top tier operators such as myself. I've taken the liberty of having my art team draw up a heraldic device for your shop, and I can guarantee this will be on my shield, banner, and tabard for every great deed of renown. Act now, and I'll get the party bard to compose a jingle for your store, to be performed at inns, taverns, cathouses and noble courts across the land."
    ***
    "As a duly empowered representative of the Baron/Duke/King/Church/Gods, I'm appropriating these potions for the greater good. Please write to the Castle/Capitol/Palace/Temple/Afterlife for appropriate compensation, making sure to include a copy of this receipt which I am now making out to you."*

    *Given a good bluff/disguise score, this can work regardless of whether you are in fact a duly empowered representative. See Wilhelm Voigt for historical example.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    GreataxeFighterGirl

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    Default Re: How to steal without stealing

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajustusdaniel View Post
    "As a duly empowered representative of the Baron/Duke/King/Church/Gods, I'm appropriating these potions for the greater good. Please write to the Castle/Capitol/Palace/Temple/Afterlife for appropriate compensation, making sure to include a copy of this receipt which I am now making out to you."*

    *Given a good bluff/disguise score, this can work regardless of whether you are in fact a duly empowered representative. See Wilhelm Voigt for historical example.
    Even better if you could do this under actual authority. Bribe or bamboozle the Baron, or someone in his employ, to issue a completely genuine warrant for seizure of the whatzit. Then acquire the whatzit, perhaps by surreptitiously replacing it with a fake?

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to steal without stealing

    Lawful characters don't steal, they requisition.
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  13. - Top - End - #13
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to steal without stealing

    Best way for a LE person to overcome his personal code is merely have someone else do it for him, it could even be right in front of him, but so long as someone else does it.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Batcathat's Avatar

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    Default Re: How to steal without stealing

    Quote Originally Posted by MR_Andersom View Post
    Best way for a LE person to overcome his personal code is merely have someone else do it for him, it could even be right in front of him, but so long as someone else does it.
    That seems like an odd interpretation of LE to me. Why would anyone – much less specifically a Lawful person – be more okay about breaking their personal code if doing it by proxy?

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: How to steal without stealing

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    That seems like an odd interpretation of LE to me. Why would anyone – much less specifically a Lawful person – be more okay about breaking their personal code if doing it by proxy?
    Depends on the code they are following...

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Batcathat's Avatar

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    Default Re: How to steal without stealing

    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    Depends on the code they are following...
    Well, yeah, I guess if their code is "It's not cool for me to steal but it's cool for me to order other people to steal" it would work, but that seems... kinda weird.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    MaxiDuRaritry's Avatar

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    Default Re: How to steal without stealing

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    Well, yeah, I guess if their code is "It's not cool for me to steal but it's cool for me to order other people to steal" it would work, but that seems... kinda weird.
    Entitled Karens who were strenuously taught that "stealing is wrong!" but try to skirt by on a technicality (using their "ethical outlook on life" while still getting all the benefits of the wrongdoing) is a thing that definitely happens.

    "I didn't do it, so I'm not in the wrong" is most definitely a thing.
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2021-01-05 at 09:13 AM.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to steal without stealing

    "This is not a robbery, it's a medical emergency! I've been inflicted with the rare stabbing plague, that makes me stab everyone I see. The only cure is to give me lots of free merchandise! Quick, I feel the stabs coming on!"

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Batcathat's Avatar

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    Default Re: How to steal without stealing

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    Entitled Karens who were strenuously taught that "stealing is wrong!" but try to skirt by on a technicality (using their "ethical outlook on life" while still getting all the benefits of the wrongdoing) is a thing that definitely happens.

    "I didn't do it, so I'm not in the wrong" is most definitely a thing.
    Absolutely. But in those cases it's usually a lot more indirect. Overlooking that the stuff you buy is made in a sweat shop or whatever is a lot easier than ordering your henchman to steal, right in front of you, and pretending it's not like stealing yourself. It could probably happen, people are capable of an astounding amount of delusion and hypocrisy, but I doubt it would count as Lawful behavior.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: How to steal without stealing

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    Well, yeah, I guess if their code is "It's not cool for me to steal but it's cool for me to order other people to steal" it would work, but that seems... kinda weird.
    I mean he is playing an LE character in with a merry band of criminal followers, I don't expect he is following the standard set of laws everyone else is. His moral code could be something like protecting, supporting and strengthening his people in which case someone unrelated to them with things they need is just another mark.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Batcathat's Avatar

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    Default Re: How to steal without stealing

    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    I mean he is playing an LE character in with a merry band of criminal followers, I don't expect he is following the standard set of laws everyone else is. His moral code could be something like protecting, supporting and strengthening his people in which case someone unrelated to them with things they need is just another mark.
    A Lawful person could absolutely have a code that allows stealing, it's the "it's not okay if I do it, it's okay if my henchman does it" bit I'm disagreeing with.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    MaxiDuRaritry's Avatar

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    Default Re: How to steal without stealing

    He could run a protection racket but actually follow through. He's not doing it out of the goodness of his heart, but he actually does what he promises. He might be rough about it, and he might not give people a choice, but it's like an insurance company: Everybody hates having to pay for insurance, but they're sure glad that when their house burns down, they get all their stuff replaced.
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2021-01-05 at 09:29 AM.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: How to steal without stealing

    Quote Originally Posted by Batcathat View Post
    A Lawful person could absolutely have a code that allows stealing, it's the "it's not okay if I do it, it's okay if my henchman does it" bit I'm disagreeing with.
    public reputation and persona can be very important just look at king pin, publicly everyone thinks he is a philanthropist out to fix the wrongs of society.

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Batcathat's Avatar

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    Default Re: How to steal without stealing

    Quote Originally Posted by liquidformat View Post
    public reputation and persona can be very important just look at king pin, publicly everyone thinks he is a philanthropist out to fix the wrongs of society.
    Sure, but neither has to do with Kingpin's hypotethical alignment. A person who appears to be a living saint but who secretly eats orphans should (everything else being the same) have the same alignment as the person who openly eat orphans.

    So our LE noble could certainly use minions for the dirty work in order to look better for the public but that wouldn't make his actions any more or less Lawful.
    Last edited by Batcathat; 2021-01-05 at 10:06 AM.

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to steal without stealing

    You cold also go for a long con. It won't help you now but will in the not too distant future.

    Tell the merchant you want to help his store and spread the word of his goods. Get him in on a legal contract where you legitimately assist him by becoming a field sponsor. Wait for an adventure to go by.

    On the day you return have one and just 1 of your merry band of criminals rob his store. Get stabbed by your own guy and retrieve the merchandise. The thief gets away. Give it back to the shopkeep. Complain about not having 1 more healing potion when you needed it most. (leave it at that).

    During your next adventure, have his store vandalized and robbed. When you return after having spread the word and bring a party member or 2 with you this time. Exclaim "This is terrible!" I told 6 ppl about this place over in "town name". One of the guys coming is looking for a job and was a guard. Talk to Bobby. ( Bobby is one of your merry band). I wish I could help you more fair shopkeeper.

    Before the 3rd adventure go to the shop explain you will be going to "town name" and will be handing out flyers but need potions too. Talk him into giving you a few scrolls and potions as sponsor items. He is indebted to you. Now you have free stuff and have an inside guard and the shopkeeper trusts you.


    From here slowly abuse the shop more and more.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Telonius's Avatar

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    Default Re: How to steal without stealing

    If you really want to keep up the Lawful part of the alignment, I think you have a few options.

    You could go with the "organized crime" angle (mentioned above already). Extort "insurance" from the shopkeeper.

    Getting dirt on the guy might not be hard, depending. "Look, I know that you're violating (insert stupid law X). Now, I understand that this is just a temporary situation. So, get it fixed, and I'll help you out and not report you. But I'll want something in return."

    You could always direct some high gp, low level Aristocrats to the shop, and defeat them in fair combat after they've made their purchases.

    Extend them a loan with a complicated interest schedule, that balloons to the point that the store would have to close. Let the shopkeeper know that clearly you don't want to bankrupt him, and that you're willing to negotiate down to payment in merchandise on a schedule you can negotiate.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    GreataxeFighterGirl

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    Default Re: How to steal without stealing

    It might be helpful to just ignore the lawful/chaotic spectrum* and just think about the goal: "I want to obtain the dingus from this shop without resorting to outright theft."

    Though the moral part of the equation may be the impetus, look at it as a tactical restriction, as if the shop has an utterly impenetrable security system, so no break-ins, burglary, or smash-and-grab solutions are possible. What, then, are the potential options?




    * Personally, I tend to look at the lawful/chaotic spectrum more as flavor text than anything, unless the character is explicitly devoted to the divine concept of Law or Chaos in some way.

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    DwarfBarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: How to steal without stealing

    Con artist? You could involve the goodies in the con without them knowing it until after the fact, without impacting their alignment if you're careful. You can con party members who fall into the con too.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: How to steal without stealing

    My first suggestion is to be a Kender. They never steal anything. They're just curious.
    Since it's for an existing character though, just steal it. There is nothing inherent about Lawful alignment that prevents you from breaking the law. It's all about the character of your Player Character.
    The beatings will continue until morale improves!

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  30. - Top - End - #30
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: How to steal without stealing

    An idea I came up with while homebrewing alternatives to the paladin:

    Sit down and rigidly define your code of conduct. Specify exactly what the rules you personally follow are and be sure to leave lots of loopholes.

    Then follow the letter of those rules and only those rules with no regard for what if anything the spirit of said rules might be.


    So a good 'do not steal' rule might read:

    'Take no goods from a trader without offering payment'
    I am rel.

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