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Thread: Cobra Kai

  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
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    That doesn't fit with his reaction to Johnny when he sees him again at the dealership. He has clearly let bygones be bygones.
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    I think you have to look at the season as a whole and consider the escalation that was across the whole season, i.e. Daniel's attitude to Johnny had markedly changed from their first encounter to their last.

    When Danny sees Johnny for the first time, Daniel has no idea Johnny is about to resume karate, Daniel is successful and on his home turf, and he sees Johnny as a washed-up loser who is no threat to him. It's easy to be urbane and gracious in victory, especially given that in the very closing moments of Karate Kid 1, it's Johnny who hands Daniel the winner's trophy, saying "You're all right, LaRusso, good match." And Daniel isn't above getting what he doubtless thinks of as good-natured ribbing of Johnny in the encounter, but which is played to the audience as something of a humiliation for Johnny. Either Daniel does this deliberately or he lacks empathy such that he doesn't realise how this makes Johnny feel.

    It's events in the second/third episode which get Daniel's blood up: when he sees the Cobra Kai sign. That's what gets the feud going again on Daniel's part, not personal antipathy towards Johnny per se. Johnny was sure part of the initial bullying of Daniel, but across the whole film series it was mainly Cobra Kai that bullied and outright intimidated Daniel.

    By the time we hit discussions about the tournament, Daniel has already argued that Cobra Kai shouldn't be re-registered and he's all but come to associate Johnny completely with the Cobra Kai philosophy as he remembered it. I'm not sure whether the big posters were just up for the tournament because it was the 50th anniversary, but given all of the preceding I don't think it's hard to imagine a conversation where the subject of whose phizzes go on the pozzers came up, and Daniel hits the roof when it's suggested that Johnny or any Cobra Kai is permitted on said papers.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Spoiler: Season 3 - Aisha
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    I liked Aisha and sincerely hope she can reach an understandement with the producers and be back for season 4.

    That said, I honestly didn't even realize she was gone until I rewatched S3... That throw-away line about she going to a private school was the only moment when I thought of her.

    Now, I must say that the reasons stated for her departure are mostly rumor. There are no official statements that I could find, only hear say... But it does seem to fit... They clearly wanted to expand Aisha's role in S2, so it's weird for her to be nonchallantly dropped in S3.
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
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    I think you have to look at the season as a whole and consider the escalation that was across the whole season, i.e. Daniel's attitude to Johnny had markedly changed from their first encounter to their last.

    When Danny sees Johnny for the first time, Daniel has no idea Johnny is about to resume karate, Daniel is successful and on his home turf, and he sees Johnny as a washed-up loser who is no threat to him. It's easy to be urbane and gracious in victory, especially given that in the very closing moments of Karate Kid 1, it's Johnny who hands Daniel the winner's trophy, saying "You're all right, LaRusso, good match." And Daniel isn't above getting what he doubtless thinks of as good-natured ribbing of Johnny in the encounter, but which is played to the audience as something of a humiliation for Johnny. Either Daniel does this deliberately or he lacks empathy such that he doesn't realise how this makes Johnny feel.

    It's events in the second/third episode which get Daniel's blood up: when he sees the Cobra Kai sign. That's what gets the feud going again on Daniel's part, not personal antipathy towards Johnny per se. Johnny was sure part of the initial bullying of Daniel, but across the whole film series it was mainly Cobra Kai that bullied and outright intimidated Daniel.

    By the time we hit discussions about the tournament, Daniel has already argued that Cobra Kai shouldn't be re-registered and he's all but come to associate Johnny completely with the Cobra Kai philosophy as he remembered it. I'm not sure whether the big posters were just up for the tournament because it was the 50th anniversary, but given all of the preceding I don't think it's hard to imagine a conversation where the subject of whose phizzes go on the pozzers came up, and Daniel hits the roof when it's suggested that Johnny or any Cobra Kai is permitted on said papers.
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    Daniel lost the fight on keeping Cobra Kai banned, though. They allow Cobra Kai back largely based on the fact that it's no longer run by Kreese and has no association with Silver, currently run by a former champion. There's no way that Daniel lost the fight to have Cobra Kai banned and yet won the fight against having a previous two-time winner represented on the banner of the 50th anniversary big showdown where the association clearly pulls out all the stops.

    For what its worth, I believe that Johnny did have banners up, and just nobody mentioned it. I'm just complaining about the writing, since they could have had a single throwaway line to canonize it, and ideally could have mentioned it along with the mention of Daniel in the finale.
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  4. - Top - End - #94
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    The other thing with Aisha is she was already basically a "good" Cobra Kai- note that she didn't really do much in the school fight at the end of the season. I wondered if maybe they couldn't think of a good plotline that involved her that tied in with Kreese corrupting everyone quickly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sloanzilla View Post
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    The other thing with Aisha is she was already basically a "good" Cobra Kai- note that she didn't really do much in the school fight at the end of the season. I wondered if maybe they couldn't think of a good plotline that involved her that tied in with Kreese corrupting everyone quickly.
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    Honestly there's nowhere for her character to go. She basically had her complete arc.
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  6. - Top - End - #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sloanzilla View Post
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    I wondered if maybe they couldn't think of a good plotline that involved her that tied in with Kreese corrupting everyone quickly.
    IIRC the writers openly stated as much some time ago.
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  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    IIRC the writers openly stated as much some time ago.
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    Yea nothing I've seen really supports the narrative about her being thrown off for being difficult. What I did see was a statement about how she would probably be back but they just didn't have a spot for her character in the seasons arc.
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    Spoiler: Hawk
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    To be honest I liked the show so far but I found the redemption of Hawk very poorly written. It's too sudden and unbelievable.

    The rest of the show is fine, even Hawk's descent into darkness. But the sudden heel/face turn stroke me as something out of the established character growth of the three seasons. I was hoping to see some sort of "sometimes, the bad side of Cobra Kai sticks, it just needs some good soil made of insecurity and will for revenge". But no, it seems they chose the route that will have the usual jocks as the "bad guys".

    And what about Demetri and the others, who all witnessed Hawk turn into the worst bully and ****? It seems they are all right with having him as a friend again? I swear to god, the teens I used to hang with in school were far less forgiving, and for much minor offenses.

    As much as I despised Hawk, I found his transformation from bullied to bully an very interesting plot point. He went quite far and no amount of epiphany is going to fix that in five minutes.

    That was by far my main gripe about the show so far. The power of "I'm sorry" (as I call it) stretched my suspension of disbelief too thin, I guess.
    Last edited by Jan Mattys; 2021-01-20 at 02:17 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jan Mattys View Post
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    To be honest I liked the show so far but I found the redemption of Hawk very poorly written. It's too sudden and unbelievable.

    The rest of the show is fine, even Hawk's descent into darkness. But the sudden heel/face turn stroke me as something out of the established character growth of the three seasons. I was hoping to see some sort of "sometimes, the bad side of Cobra Kai sticks, it just needs some good soil made of insecurity and will for revenge". But no, it seems they chose the route that will have the usual jocks as the "bad guys".

    And what about Demetri and the others, who all witnessed Hawk turn into the worst bully and ****? It seems they are all right with having him as a friend again? I swear to god, the teens I used to hang with in school were far less forgiving, and for much minor offenses.

    As much as I despised Hawk, I found his transformation from bullied to bully an very interesting plot point. He went quite far and no amount of epiphany is going to fix that in five minutes.

    That was by far my main gripe about the show so far. The power of "I'm sorry" (as I call it) stretched my suspension of disbelief too thin, I guess.
    Really?

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    The whole season was gearing up for his turn - people who grew Cobra Kai with him are suddenly out and the enemy. His actual enemies are now Cobra Kai and his supposed allies. He gets bullied right back the second they come in. He was conflicted about breaking Denetri's arm and clearly conflicted about it afterwards. The whole season he's waking up to the fact that Kreese's Cobra Kai is a cult and that he is in fact, a bully, just as bad to others as Kyler was to him. The turn isn't sudden, it's the culmination of his character arc for the entire season. Everything involving him this season was building up to this. Before now, I didn't even think anyone could have been surprised by that turn - the foreshadowing wasn't subtle.
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  10. - Top - End - #100
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    I can see how Hawk was rushed.

    Sure, they made him feel bad about breaking Demitri's arm... But pretty much every other scene he was in, he's either trying to get respect from CK or envying those who have it... He brutally beats and spits on a new student, participates in the heist to steal a cobra and is shown to be jealous when Robby does it and gets the admiration of other CKs.

    They basically started a redemption arc for him... Then completely ignored it or even went against it... Then suddenly decided to skip straight to the conclusion of the arc.

    So... His redemption wasn't completely out of the blue, but it was very inconsistently developed.

    Honestly, they should have kept Hawk in CK... During the brawl, he should've just stopped someone from harming Demitri, but stayed on the CK side, then, after being punished for it, realized what CK really is and left.
    Last edited by Lemmy; 2021-01-20 at 06:34 PM.
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    I think Hawk is an interesting character. The way I consider his arc, I think it is two things:

    1. The inclusion of his former bully.

    2. The breaking of Demitri's arm.

    I think Hawk really believed in the lessons of Cobra Kai. One scene in particular stood out to me when I watched it, and it was after the kids played Capture the Flag in the woods. Miguel showed "no mercy" to Hawk and struck him when he was defeated. Afterwards, Miguel goes to make amends. Normally, this would be the start of a bitter rivalry between two characters. But Hawk shrugged it off and said something along the lines of "we were enemies for that lesson, but we'll always be brothers" (I'm just trying to remember the sentiment). I think Hawk really believed it what was being taught and thought it made him a better person.

    I think when he sees Tyler(?) join, I think it makes him reflect on who he used to be and who he is now. He used to be bullied, and of course he thought it was unfair and hated it. And Cobra Kai channeled that frustration and anger into Hawk becoming a formidable warrior. But obviously he became the very thing he despised. But Hawk couldn't see this. Miguel defeated the bullies through Cobra Kai, and now Hawk is becoming like Miguel. He's not a bully, he's the guy that can defend himself against bullies, and part of being able to do that is being tough and making other people tougher by tough with them.

    When Tyler joins, it sort of rocks Hawk's world, as Kreese says these are the types of students they need to be competitive. Hawk reflects on Tyler's character and what it means that this is what Cobra Kai is looking for, on Miguel's path, on the fact that he broke Demitri's arm. He begins to understand that he may be in the wrong dojo.

    I too am not impressed with how this arc was handled, but it's not that bad. I think we have to remember that Hawk was a gentle soul in the beginning. He has done some messed up stuff with Cobra Kai, including breaking Demitri's arm, but I think it's reasonable to understand that his evil does not go that deep. I think seeing the guys that tormented him embraced by Kreese really shook him up, as did his brutality against his former best friend.

  12. - Top - End - #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemmy View Post
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    I can see how Hawk was rushed.

    Sure, they made him feel bad about breaking Demitri's arm... But pretty much every other scene he was in, he's either trying to get respect from CK or envying those who have it... He brutally beats and spits on a new student, participates in the heist to steal a cobra and is shown to be jealous when Robby does it and gets the admiration of other CKs.

    They basically started a redemption arc for him... Then completely ignored it or even went against it... Then suddenly decided to skip straight to the conclusion of the arc.

    So... His redemption wasn't completely out of the blue, but it was very inconsistently developed.

    Honestly, they should have kept Hawk in CK... During the brawl, he should've just stopped someone from harming Demitri, but stayed on the CK side, then, after being punished for it, realized what CK really is and left.
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    Thankyou for putting it better than I could. Yes, that's what I meant.
    Of course I picked up the clues about him being conflicted about the new members of CK and about Demetri's arm, but the whole season didn't seem like a natural progression for the character. I like the young actor playing Hawk and I think he did a good job... so it must be the writing that didn't do it for me. Not for his arc, at least.
    Last edited by Jan Mattys; 2021-01-21 at 08:14 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #103
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    I don't understand the phenomenon of this series. It's childish, naive, weird. But it's still fun to watch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TommyJo View Post
    I don't understand the phenomenon of this series. It's childish, naive, weird. But it's still fun to watch.
    Well, part of its charm is precisely because it's naive and weird, rather than gritty and political... And and as you mentioned, it's very fun to watch.

    The forte of the series is its mix of comedy, drama and action... But even more so, its characters. It takes really overly simplistic black-and-white characters from a cheesy 80's movies and gives them depth without taking away their charm.

    The series also has an on-going theme of "everyone has their story, even villains from cheesy 80's movies" and "when there's conflict, very likely both sides have a point, despite often seeing and trying to paint each other as absolute evil".
    CK and Myagi-do, Johnny and Daniel, have very conflicting core principles, but they both have merits and flaws, and both can be pushed too far.

    Considering how much we have of gritty-and-dark media that are more propaganda than entertainment, it's no wonder that a fun, light-hearted show would be as successful as it is... Specially when it's so good at balancing nostalgia with introduction of new characters and elements (something Disney, Warner and most other studios and production companies haven't managed to do right at all).
    Last edited by Lemmy; 2021-01-22 at 06:59 PM.
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    Yea, the series doesn't bother to be embarrassed by it's blatantly high melodrama or hide it away behind a layer of grounded gritty yellow filters. Between that and a cast of spectacular all start actors acting the hell out of well written characters the series just works and the way the second season played out was positively Shakespearian in it's use of dramatic irony and tragedy.
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  16. - Top - End - #106
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    At the time William Zabke appeared on How I Met Your Mother he spoke in an interview he had a bit difficult time in his real life in the movie's era because fans treated him as the Bully Everyone Hates. Not just Karate Kid he also played The Bully in other movies. It was unfair of me to hate on Ralph Maccio because of Eight Is Enough. It was unfair for people to hate on Zabke off the screen. I totally get it if part of the reason he did this show was to get Redemption not only for Johnny but also himself.

    Where I am in the show I call Daniel's cousin as the Villain. I'm still not on Team Johnny, but I am in the hopes he and Daniel can finally get over each other.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    I'm still not on Team Johnny, but I am in the hopes he and Daniel can finally get over each other.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    Where I am in the show I call Daniel's cousin as the Villain. I'm still not on Team Johnny, but I am in the hopes he and Daniel can finally get over each other.
    Pretty sure I can nail down the episode.
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  19. - Top - End - #109
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    Finished Season 1.
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    I did find it a little bit sappy how they mirrored the tournament in the movie even of Hawk's disqualification, but it didn't ruin anything and I did laugh at Daniel's fake out calling for a medic instead of healing the shoulder. If anything it did show the Cobra Kai transformation of the bullied kids now being the bullies. I liked the hint of showing Johnny getting it that he went too far. One of the two new Karate Kids had to win and the other lose, and they managed to do it in a way respectful for both, granted the winner is a converted victim to bully. He's not officially a bully yet. I'll have to watch season 2 to see if that's the case. Brownie points for him he did not abandon his friend who left Cobra Kai after his first session.


    Season 1 played on the nostalgia. It would have to be fans of the movies to make the show a success. It needed to blend familiarity with new things. Despite my earlier misgivings it was fun, and I will start season 2 soon enough. I don't binge watch.
    Last edited by Pex; 2021-01-27 at 11:02 PM.
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  20. - Top - End - #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    Finished Season 1.
    Spoiler: Season 1 finale
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    I did find it a little bit sappy how they mirrored the tournament in the movie even of Hawk's disqualification, but it didn't ruin anything and I did laugh at Daniel's fake out calling for a medic instead of healing the shoulder. If anything it did show the Cobra Kai transformation of the bullied kids now being the bullies. I liked the hint of showing Johnny getting it that he went too far. One of the two new Karate Kids had to win and the other lose, and they managed to do it in a way respectful for both, granted the winner is a converted victim to bully. He's not officially a bully yet. I'll have to watch season 2 to see if that's the case. Brownie points for him he did not abandon his friend who left Cobra Kai after his first session.


    Season 1 played on the nostalgia. It would have to be fans of the movies to make the show a success. It needed to blend familiarity with new things. Despite my earlier misgivings it was fun, and I will start season 2 soon enough. I don't binge watch.
    The season 2 finale is amazing.
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  21. - Top - End - #111
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    I've had my eye on this for years (since it was trapped in Youtube Red jail), and caught up with all of it now that it's on Netflix. I came in expecting a nostalgia binge (for the first movie anyway...I wasn't even actually aware there WERE sequels before now), a few good fights, and general all around entertainment, which I got, but I was surprised by how smoothly everything flows. The writing of this series is great; not complex, but it's refreshing watching a series where I can clearly and easily trace back effect in one episode to cause in an earlier one. Nothing really feels like an asspull.

    The main thing about the series is it can't seem to decide whether it takes place in "the real world" or operates completely under "martial arts movie logic", but I think it fits for a series based on a movie franchise that was "martial arts movie-lite" to begin with. One minute people are fighting to the actual death, the next they're concerned with some silly tournament.

    As for who's the "Bad Guy", I find it interesting nobody has pointed out who the real bad guy is, at least in season 2. And it's not Daniel OR Johnny.

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    It's Sam. I kept expecting the series to point this out, but the entire feud with Tory (which dragged in everyone else on BOTH sides) was her fault to begin with. At every single turn she instigated conflict, and while it was ultimately Tory that took it TOO FAR, Sam pushed that poor girl to the brink; accusing her of theft, trying to search her bag by force, bothering her at work, kissing her boyfriend, etc. I was already somewhat sympathetic of Tory before I even learned what her home life was like. Maybe I just have a hard time sympathizing with spoiled rich brats.

  22. - Top - End - #112
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    Every character has flaws... No one is painted as being the de facto Good Guy or Bad Guy (well... We get a Bad Guy in season 2, but even that one is given a few moments that make we understand him better and perhaps even sympathize a little bit with him (although not enough to like or defend him).

    Miguel is probably the most consistent "Good Guy" in the show (and arguably the true protagonist of the show), but even him has moments that makes us angry at him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    I've had my eye on this for years (since it was trapped in Youtube Red jail), and caught up with all of it now that it's on Netflix. I came in expecting a nostalgia binge (for the first movie anyway...I wasn't even actually aware there WERE sequels before now), a few good fights, and general all around entertainment, which I got, but I was surprised by how smoothly everything flows. The writing of this series is great; not complex, but it's refreshing watching a series where I can clearly and easily trace back effect in one episode to cause in an earlier one. Nothing really feels like an asspull.

    The main thing about the series is it can't seem to decide whether it takes place in "the real world" or operates completely under "martial arts movie logic", but I think it fits for a series based on a movie franchise that was "martial arts movie-lite" to begin with. One minute people are fighting to the actual death, the next they're concerned with some silly tournament.

    As for who's the "Bad Guy", I find it interesting nobody has pointed out who the real bad guy is, at least in season 2. And it's not Daniel OR Johnny.

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    It's Sam. I kept expecting the series to point this out, but the entire feud with Tory (which dragged in everyone else on BOTH sides) was her fault to begin with. At every single turn she instigated conflict, and while it was ultimately Tory that took it TOO FAR, Sam pushed that poor girl to the brink; accusing her of theft, trying to search her bag by force, bothering her at work, kissing her boyfriend, etc. I was already somewhat sympathetic of Tory before I even learned what her home life was like. Maybe I just have a hard time sympathizing with spoiled rich brats.
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    To be fair, Sam searched her bag " AFTER " Tori commented on stealing from the place. But yeah she did instigate some stuff. And Tori was trying to force a breakup already, she knew Miguel and Sam were together, and she took advantage of him when he was emotionally unstable to try and push them apart. Both groups did crappy things.
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  24. - Top - End - #114
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Cobra Kai

    I feel season three slipped some. Iíve gone back and watched the second and third Karate Kid movies, since my own kids hadnít seem them. Definable appreciate the Netflix series more when the old movies are fresh in oneís mind.

  25. - Top - End - #115
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Cobra Kai

    Few episodes in Season 2. So far this is where Daniel keeps losing. Hero can't win unless he overcomes obstacles. This will hurt. Here's to hoping his marriage doesn't fall apart. His wife is right he shouldn't be obsessed. That's where it will happen if it happens. It better not.

    Hope he learns the lesson. Wax On/Wax Off and Paint The Fence work, but he can't leave it a mystery how like it was for him.
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  26. - Top - End - #116
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
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    Daniel consistently shows a failure of understanding what bMiyagi tried to teach him. Daniel needed to learn patience, so Miyagi taught by chores without telling him the purpose. Daniel never learned patience and instead believed that that is the only way to teach.

    Miyagi was wrong about one thing. There can be a bad student, and Daniel is the quintessential example of that.
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  27. - Top - End - #117
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Daniel consistently shows a failure of understanding what Miyagi tried to teach him. Daniel needed to learn patience, so Miyagi taught by chores without telling him the purpose. Daniel never learned patience and instead believed that that is the only way to teach.

    Miyagi was wrong about one thing. There can be a bad student, and Daniel is the quintessential example of that.
    I think it's more a case of Daniel seemingly having a very peaceful and successful life... So his patience has never truly been tested in the time period between the 3rd movie and the events of CK season 1.
    Patience is a skill. It can be learned, but if not exercised, it can also get rusty. It doesn't help that Cobra Kai as a whole seems to be quite the potent emotional trigger for Daniel, and one he wasn't expecting at all. Specially after 30+ years.
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  28. - Top - End - #118
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Cobra Kai

    Hawk officially becomes the bully, and Daniel/Miyagi Do strikes back. Now it's Something. Daniel spoke for me. He wants to let the past go, but Johnny makes it so hard. I know Kreese is the instigator. Johnny is not totally wrong, but he still hasn't won me over.
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  29. - Top - End - #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    Hawk officially becomes the bully, and Daniel/Miyagi Do strikes back. Now it's Something. Daniel spoke for me. He wants to let the past go, but Johnny makes it so hard. I know Kreese is the instigator. Johnny is not totally wrong, but he still hasn't won me over.
    Eh. Daniel SAYS that but he certainly doesn't live it. He continually exudes this aura of "I'm better than you" at Johnny at every opportunity, and while it wasn't his intention you have to admit the optics of "turning his son against him" are pretty bad.

    As a bit of a tangent, one of the things I found most intriguing about the series was the format. You don't often see a 30 minute drama; they're always 45 minutes to an hour. Hell, you don't see a flat 30 minutes very often at all, it's usually 24.

    It makes the show feel breezy but meaty. More shows should adopt that format, since a lot of 45 minutes to an hour long shows feel like they need to pad things out to fill the runtime usually.

  30. - Top - End - #120
    Dragon in the Playground Moderator
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rynjin View Post
    Eh. Daniel SAYS that but he certainly doesn't live it. He continually exudes this aura of "I'm better than you" at Johnny at every opportunity, and while it wasn't his intention you have to admit the optics of "turning his son against him" are pretty bad.

    As a bit of a tangent, one of the things I found most intriguing about the series was the format. You don't often see a 30 minute drama; they're always 45 minutes to an hour. Hell, you don't see a flat 30 minutes very often at all, it's usually 24.

    It makes the show feel breezy but meaty. More shows should adopt that format, since a lot of 45 minutes to an hour long shows feel like they need to pad things out to fill the runtime usually.
    22-44 minute shows were built for cable where commercials pad them out to 30 minutes or an hour. Don't need that for streaming shows with no commercial breaks. The Mandalorian is also interesting in this regard, as it's very inconsistent with episode timing - it's episodes take as long as they need.
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