Cobra Kai

[Brother Oni]

Turns out Johnny is a pretty cool, if off color, guy when he doesn't have a karate cult leader telling him what to do. Who knew?

And that Daniel can be a bit of a brash a-hole if he doesn't have a more calming presence reigning him in.

It's almost as if they're basically the same person, just with different people influencing them as they grew up...

[Saintheart]

Finally there's a thread about this excellent series!

Spoiler: Fanboyish random gushing, spoilers for season 3

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- About the best thing I perceived, or liked, about this series is its theme of escalation. The Danny/Johnny feud has been sleeping for thirty years, but when it emerges back into daylight, it quickly grows not just to become higher stakes with each interaction, but it also entangles other people and indeed entire families into its destructive vortex. This is true of revenge; don't just dig holes for you and the other person, dig holes for many of your personal relationships as well. And it keeps getting worse because the two people at its centre are as bone-headed as each other, to the point that it takes the object of their mutual affection, the very person who started it all, to get the two to put the dispute to bed. (Although I doubt it'll really be put to bed. It'll come back up, because that's plot, and that's the two protagonists: strong personalities.)

- The theme of balance is writ pretty large in the first season, and damned if the whole series doesn't do balance exceptionally well: 80s references with modern thinking, comic book biology with the fact they don't make Danny, Johnny, and Kreese all fight with the speed of 18 year olds, callbacks to the past with Johnny and Danny being actual 50something people as characters who've actually grown and changed somewhat. There were so many notes, plot points, and scenes that the writers could have gotten hideously wrong or overly saccharine and they without exception pulled back from each and every one.

- As said, it's great to see how the show doesn't just put the 20something characters of Johnny and Danny in older skinsuits and run around as if it's Karate Kid V: The Cobra Awakens. (I was a bit worried with the first shot of the series: Johnny sprawled on the floor of his apartment in the same position as when he hit the mat back in 1984, i.e. 'We have literally picked up the character from a moment in time and thrown him down to the same place, 30 years later, classic fish out of water'. But no, the balance with his character is perfect. Perfect.) Yes, Johnny has a lot of unrefined 80s sensibilities, but when he first kicks out after no practice for 30 years he does himself a groin injury, and he's not just the doomed sociopath character we were expecting. Johnny Lawrence has depth. He has contradictions. He is an adult, and the role is played like an adult with a child occasionally busting free.

- Bring back Chozen, and soon. About 10 minutes of actual screentime and he immediately became one of the most noble characters in the whole series, a villain turned Jedi Knight with a genuine smile and real heart to his character. I was worried that we'd see a surly, kinda-forgiven-Daniel character, but no, the writers once again give us balance, they give us a man who was transformed due to Daniel's influence in his life and who is probably more mature than any of the principal leads.

- Give Martin Kove his due as Kreese, that guy might be in his late seventies and, body double or not, he carries himself in such a way that you believe he could still kick Johnny's butt. And he sure appears to be really enjoying himself in the part.

- That said, this is William Zabka's show, end of story. Let's leave aside he seems to have aged a hell of a lot better than Ralph Macchio, the guy just carries scene after scene after scene and it never feels forced or contrived, the performance is always pitched just right no matter whether he's playing it serious or comedic. That said, mad props to Xolo as Miguel, he has some great comedy chops and he shifts from sociopath at the end of Season 1 to padawan Jedi in Season 3 with a real subtlety.

- QUIET!

Editing to include an illegal face kick:

Spoiler: Season 3 again

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Attention to detail from the writers. Remember Johnny's long Facebook post that he deleted, in favour of "Not much, u?" Welp, they did actually write it out:



In this tweet I learned Johnny liked Predator. The man has taste.

[Tyrant]

I watched the first episode of this when it started on YouTube and thought it had potential. Over the last few days I watched the whole thing on Netflix. As someone who thought the movies were okay*, this show is better than I would have ever thought a show that is a spin off of The Karate Kid could ever hope to be. They have managed to make Johnny a 3 dimensional character who has problems but seems to be trying to be better. What impresses/surprises me is the people from the movies they have managed to incorporate into the series.

Spoilers, I suppose:

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Apparently all three of the people encountered in Okinawa are the actors who played those characters in the second movie. The original Cobra Kai gang was a surprise as well. I really wasn't expecting Ali (though I probably should have the moment they had her respond on Facebook). While I am sure there will still be some turbulence, it was nice seeing someone else that had a front row seat to the rivalry weigh in on it and make the two guys realize they just might have a lot in common. At this rate I am half expecting the villains from part 3 and Hillary Swank at some point in season 4.

I was somewhat surprised (would've been real surprised if the set up hadn't been obvious) at the change in tone in the season 2 finale. The big fight was almost inevitable after the summer of tit for tat. So I expected that. I didn't expect the sharp turn to real consequences.

Also, the filled in backstory for Kreese is interesting. I guess he is yet another example in the show of a person being shaped by the people and events in his life. He started off standing up to bullies only to be shaped into a killer in Vietnam. I do wonder what his real endgame is. I mean, win the tournament and prove he is right, sure. But what else? The guy won't live forever and doesn't appear to have any kids. Is it enough for him to know he shaped others to his ideals? Johnny and Daniel are trying to help the kids and Johnny is trying to fix his life so I understand their goals. Does Kreese even have a goal?

* I watched them around the time they came out. Thought they were entertaining then. Nothing life changing or seriously moving but worth watching on TV a few times here and there.

[Sloanzilla]

It's good- really good.

I do feel like the show can't always make up its mind in terms of whether consequences are a thing or not.

But the play between Johnny and Daniel and Johnny and Miguel= perfect. And I love Amanda.

[Dragonus45]

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Also, the filled in backstory for Kreese is interesting. I guess he is yet another example in the show of a person being shaped by the people and events in his life. He started off standing up to bullies only to be shaped into a killer in Vietnam. I do wonder what his real endgame is. I mean, win the tournament and prove he is right, sure. But what else? The guy won't live forever and doesn't appear to have any kids. Is it enough for him to know he shaped others to his ideals? Johnny and Daniel are trying to help the kids and Johnny is trying to fix his life so I understand their goals. Does Kreese even have a goal?

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Ultimately I think he just wants to be right, to prove that the philosophy he learned through hardship and tragedy is true and correct and to destroy anyone who says otherwise. I also think a big part of it was making sure it lived on through Johnny but that seems to be a bust at this point.

[Dr.Samurai]

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Ultimately I think he just wants to be right, to prove that the philosophy he learned through hardship and tragedy is true and correct and to destroy anyone who says otherwise. I also think a big part of it was making sure it lived on through Johnny but that seems to be a bust at this point.

Spoiler: Season 3 spoilers

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I hope this backstory is expanded on in the next season. To my mind, I haven't seen young Kreese do anything that would explain his character in the original movies or in the current series. I understand he went through a traumatic experience as a POW, but nothing that happened there seemed to indicate a turn to the type of person he is now, so I'm hoping there's more to that story than what we've seen so far. There is, to me, a difference between killing his commander after suffering trauma as a POW, and the sort of cold, manipulative, sadistic bully that Kreese has become.

[Peelee]

Spoiler: Season 3 spoilers

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I hope this backstory is expanded on in the next season. To my mind, I haven't seen young Kreese do anything that would explain his character in the original movies or in the current series. I understand he went through a traumatic experience as a POW, but nothing that happened there seemed to indicate a turn to the type of person he is now, so I'm hoping there's more to that story than what we've seen so far. There is, to me, a difference between killing his commander after suffering trauma as a POW, and the sort of cold, manipulative, sadistic bully that Kreese has become.

I feel like I can pinpoint the moment you argue is missing, but that may be difference of interpretation.

[Lemmy]

One of the most impressive things about season 3, is that Amanda actually became a really cool and interesting character.

In seasons 1 and 2, she was rather boring and forgettable... Didn't have any personality other than "Daniel's Conscience".

[DigestPantheon]

It's good- really good.

This surprises and intrigues me. I think that I, like maybe some others, saw the show and thought it was just some nostalgia cash grab. But checking the reviews they're positive as well. I might have to give this show a shot.

[Dr.Samurai]

I feel like I can pinpoint the moment you argue is missing, but that may be difference of interpretation.

Well, less an argument and more an opinion. I put "to my mind" and "to me" because I suspect others will see it differently. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on it though.

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Are you referring to when he kills his commanding officer?

I think sometimes writers go a little too far to make someone sympathetic. For me, everyone there has been through a traumatic event, and to have his commanding officer basically write them all off and eagerly fight him to the death while delivering the awful news about his girl back home... well, I don't think what he did is out of real expectations. But I may be missing something.

Kreese, to me, is more than "I'm capable of killing someone". He is manipulative and calculating. Young Kreese doesn't seem so much like those things and I'm not sure that what we've seen so far sells it to me.

[Sloanzilla]

I'd say it is good because it treats itself with the right amount of seriousness. It also manages to balance the teen plots and adult plots much better than most shows.

[Saintheart]

Spoiler: Season 3 spoilers

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I hope this backstory is expanded on in the next season. To my mind, I haven't seen young Kreese do anything that would explain his character in the original movies or in the current series. I understand he went through a traumatic experience as a POW, but nothing that happened there seemed to indicate a turn to the type of person he is now, so I'm hoping there's more to that story than what we've seen so far. There is, to me, a difference between killing his commander after suffering trauma as a POW, and the sort of cold, manipulative, sadistic bully that Kreese has become.

Well, less an argument and more an opinion. I put "to my mind" and "to me" because I suspect others will see it differently. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on it though.

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Are you referring to when he kills his commanding officer?

I think sometimes writers go a little too far to make someone sympathetic. For me, everyone there has been through a traumatic event, and to have his commanding officer basically write them all off and eagerly fight him to the death while delivering the awful news about his girl back home... well, I don't think what he did is out of real expectations. But I may be missing something.

Kreese, to me, is more than "I'm capable of killing someone". He is manipulative and calculating. Young Kreese doesn't seem so much like those things and I'm not sure that what we've seen so far sells it to me.

Spoiler: Season 3 and whatnot

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The Kreese backstory was the most clunky element of the season. And it started being clunky because this sort of attempt really never works out that well; it's never easy to try and rehabilitate or sympathetically explain the motives of someone who to that point has just served as the Big Bad of a franchise. I think maybe the closest it's ever gone was Godfather II with the backstory of Don Corleone. Even George Lucas, revisionist historian of Darth Vader and Han Solo/Greedo shooting first, was smart enough to never fully explain the Emperor's personal history; sometimes you need a bottomless pit of blackness that is not explainable, and at least in the first couple of films John Kreese was basically just that, he didn't need a motive.

The introduction of his backstory I'm guessing was to amplify the season's theme that 'there's two sides to every story'. As it was, I didn't think that theme needed further exegesis; the previous two seasons had addressed it elegantly when Johnny told his side of the Danny/Johnny feud to Miguel, counterpointed with flashbacks to parts of the original film. Even though Johnny was telling the story from his point of view, we got Danny's side of it via the flashbacks and were able to recognise 'Okay, Johnny has a different take on what happened, it wasn't just plain evil on his part, he was just a young idiot or he chooses to remember stuff differently, just as we all do.'

By contrast, Kreese terminating his commanding officer I suspect was intended as a twist on the 'two sides' theme: no, despite what you probably thought from all the scenes back in 1955, there isn't actually a sympathetic side to Kreese's story, he is a cold-blooded murderer who deliberately chose to do what he did even though they'd already been rescued. It didn't work as well as it could have. Were it up to me, I would not have made it explicit that Kreese caused his CO to fall; I would have had the CO hanging by his fingertips, then the explosions and USAF rescue, then back to Kreese who's looking down at the empty precipice, and with a flat look on his face that we can't interpret as a smile or a scowl, i.e. leave it equivocal about whether the CO fell or was caused to fall by Kreese.

However, I can see some reasonably straightforward paths for how Kreese got to where he is based on that quick sketch of his history. We know Kreese is an abused child, likely fatherless or with an abusive father. We know Kreese realised his CO used the news of his girlfriend's death to unbalance him for the death duel. We know Kreese had seen the CO as a sort of father figure (a common theme in this franchise, Johnny and Danny outright share that characteristic). We know Kreese realised he'd been manipulated and the pit of snakes he dropped the CO into turned up in Cobra Kai's insignia. Kreese, then, acts out the Hollywood (if not real life) pathology of overcompensation: he addresses the series of crappy father figures in his life, or lack of father figures, by being the father that he would have wanted to have - a strong father who believed in showing his children how to strike first, not let the world destroy them, and to rise above their weakness. He believes the principle by which he survived in Vietnam reflects the principle by which he lived his life before the Army: strike first, strike hard, and have no mercy.

Ever heard the expression that we despise most in other people what we hate about ourselves? That's John Kreese. He hates weakness, because he perceived himself as small and weak when he was a young man, and in his heart he knows he didn't win the fight against his CO squarely or on his own skill: he resorted to literally a backstab, and then to killing someone when they were vulnerable. So he pays out extra hard on those he thinks of as weak, and he convinces himself he's trying to destroy that weakness in his students.

[Bunny Commando]

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Ever heard the expression that we despise most in other people what we hate about ourselves? That's John Kreese. He hates weakness, because he perceived himself as small and weak when he was a young man, and in his heart he knows he didn't win the fight against his CO squarely or on his own skill: he resorted to literally a backstab, and then to killing someone when they were vulnerable. So he pays out extra hard on those he thinks of as weak, and he convinces himself he's trying to destroy that weakness in his students.

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I disagree: Kreese didn't backstab his CO - when you're fighting for your life there are no rules. The CO was overconfident, thought he had won and didn't pay enough attention, Kreese saw an opportunity and took it.
The CO was his enemy in that moment, and if Kreese chose to follow some arbitrary rules or show mercy he would've died.

[Devonix]

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I disagree: Kreese didn't backstab his CO - when you're fighting for your life there are no rules. The CO was overconfident, thought he had won and didn't pay enough attention, Kreese saw an opportunity and took it.
The CO was his enemy in that moment, and if Kreese chose to follow some arbitrary rules or show mercy he would've died.

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Kreese is teaching people to survive in wartime, because to him he never left. He's still in a fight for his life every day. This is someone who needs serious therapy. He's trying to impart the one and only lesson he feels he has to offer.

[Lemmy]

Spoiler: Kreese

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I believe Kreese wants two things:
1- To leave a legacy. He doesn't seem to have kids and doesn't want to be forgotten. He also genuinely believes his lessons are beneficial, perhaps even necessary, to those kids.

And, probably more important, even if he maybe doesn't realize it:

2- He wants to have a goal, a mission. He mentions being an aimless vagrant for years, with nothing to look forward to. Anyone who has been unwillingly unemployed for an extend period knows how bad it feels when you no longer see yourself as a productive or valuable member of society. It's freaking devastating.

Seeing Cobra Kai reborn, specially due to his prized star student, reignited a flame Kreese almost certainly believed to be dead forever... And he will do whatever it takes to keep if from being snuffed again.

His backstory in season 3 doesn't make him look particularly sympathetic, but tells us how he started down the path that led him to become the man he was when we first met him all the way back in 1984. We still don't like him, but we can understand him a little better.

One of the main themes of this whole series is that everyone has their story. Even cheesy one-dimensional villains from an 80's movie.

[Peelee]

Spoiler: Season 3 and whatnot

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The Kreese backstory was the most clunky element of the season. And it started being clunky because this sort of attempt really never works out that well; it's never easy to try and rehabilitate or sympathetically explain the motives of someone who to that point has just served as the Big Bad of a franchise.

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I don't think it was clunky at all, and it was asking my favorite parts of this season, because it's not any agent to rehabilitate or sympathetically explain. If explains who he is, how he got to be that person, but there's no sympathy. The closest it gets is his girlfriend dying, Aang every that is just used to further radicalize him and teach him that anything can be weaponized.

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I disagree: Kreese didn't backstab his CO - when you're fighting for your life there are no rules. The CO was overconfident, thought he had won and didn't pay enough attention, Kreese saw an opportunity and took it.
The CO was his enemy in that moment, and if Kreese chose to follow some arbitrary rules or show mercy he would've died.

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The CO stored being his enemy the second the choppers landed. They were free to go. Nobody was forcing either of them to kill the other anymore. That's what the CO even told Kreese directly. Kreese didn't kill in self defense or preservation there. That was cold-blooded, just like the snakes.

[Bunny Commando]

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The CO stored being his enemy the second the choppers landed. They were free to go. Nobody was forcing either of them to kill the other anymore. That's what the CO even told Kreese directly. Kreese didn't kill in self defense or preservation there. That was cold-blooded, just like the snakes.

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I believe you have misunterstood my post.
I was talking about the fight between Kreese and his CO and Saintheart's assertion that Kreese believes himself to be weak because he couldn't defeat his CO without resorting to some underhanded tactics - I disagree with this assertion.
When air support showed up the fight was already over and I agree that the actual killing of the CO was unnecessary.

[Peelee]

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I believe you have misunterstood my post.
I was talking about the fight between Kreese and his CO and Saintheart's assertion that Kreese believes himself to be weak because he couldn't defeat his CO without resorting to some underhanded tactics - I disagree with this assertion.
When air support showed up the fight was already over and I agree that the actual killing of the CO was unnecessary.

Ahhh. Yeah, I misunderstood. My bad!

[WinterKnight404]

I must be the only one who can't stand this show. The acting is terrible and the writing is cheesy just like the original movies. I loved the original movies when my mother took me to see them when I was 10 years old. I've re-watched them since then and it's laughable to think I ever enjoyed them. There is SOMETHING to the new philosophy of Cobra Kai but I can't get past the cheesy-lameness type of the production value.

Also, who cares about karate that much in this day and age? Certainly not the throngs of devoted fans willing participate in monstrous tournaments like is depicted in this show. Not even in the 80s was karate EVER that popular! I took kempo karate all through middle and high school an never thought I was cool because of it.

[Peelee]

Also, who cares about karate that much in this day and age? Certainly not the throngs of devoted fans willing participate in monstrous tournaments like is depicted in this show. Not even in the 80s was karate EVER that popular! I took kempo karate all through middle and high school an never thought I was cool because of it.

A show about karate largely focuses on karate. News at 11.

[WinterKnight404]

A show about karate largely focuses on karate. News at 11.

I meant that in the context of the show but that's kind of my point. Why is it so popular? Who's really big on karate to want to watch a show specifically about it? If it wasn't for its connection to the Karate Kid franchise no one would watch it or give it a second thought.

[Peelee]

I meant that in the context of the show but that's kind of my point. Why is it so popular?

Because the show would not exist without that so they take liberties. Why is Sherlock Holmes so smart? Why does Wakanda inexplicably have 90% of the world's vibranium supply? The answer is always the same: so that the storytellers can tell a story about that.

Who's really big on karate to want to watch a show specifically about it? If it wasn't for its connection to the Karate Kid franchise no one would watch it or give it a second thought.

...yes, a show that was literally made solely because of the Karate Kid has a connection to the Karate Kid. Again, I'm not really understanding the issue here.

[WinterKnight404]

Again, I'm not really understanding the issue here.

It's set in our time and our modern world therefore paralleling our reality. In our reality, karate is not popular therefore it's not realistic nor an accurate depiction of reality.

[Dragonus45]

I meant that in the context of the show but that's kind of my point. Why is it so popular? Who's really big on karate to want to watch a show specifically about it? If it wasn't for its connection to the Karate Kid franchise no one would watch it or give it a second thought.

Me and my love of karate, martial arts in general, and Hong Kong cinema in general strongly disagree.

[Peelee]

It's set in our time and our modern world therefore paralleling our reality. In our reality, karate is not popular therefore it's not realistic nor an accurate depiction of reality.

It is not supposed to be an accurate depiction of reality. It is supposed to be a depiction of an alternate reality very similar to ours, except in which karate fever swept the Valley.

If you want to watch an accurate depiction of reality, might I suggest Planet Earth?

[Brother Oni]

...yes, a show that was literally made solely because of the Karate Kid has a connection to the Karate Kid. Again, I'm not really understanding the issue here.

I suspect he's being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative, rather than trying to add anything to the conversation.

It's set in our time and our modern world therefore paralleling our reality. In our reality, karate is not popular therefore it's not realistic nor an accurate depiction of reality.

If by 'our reality', you mean 'in my little social bubble'. Karate is still popular in the martial arts and competitive fighting scene, not to mention in Japan itself.

[Dr.Samurai]

Spoiler: Season 3 and whatnot

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The Kreese backstory was the most clunky element of the season. And it started being clunky because this sort of attempt really never works out that well; it's never easy to try and rehabilitate or sympathetically explain the motives of someone who to that point has just served as the Big Bad of a franchise. I think maybe the closest it's ever gone was Godfather II with the backstory of Don Corleone. Even George Lucas, revisionist historian of Darth Vader and Han Solo/Greedo shooting first, was smart enough to never fully explain the Emperor's personal history; sometimes you need a bottomless pit of blackness that is not explainable, and at least in the first couple of films John Kreese was basically just that, he didn't need a motive.

The introduction of his backstory I'm guessing was to amplify the season's theme that 'there's two sides to every story'. As it was, I didn't think that theme needed further exegesis; the previous two seasons had addressed it elegantly when Johnny told his side of the Danny/Johnny feud to Miguel, counterpointed with flashbacks to parts of the original film. Even though Johnny was telling the story from his point of view, we got Danny's side of it via the flashbacks and were able to recognise 'Okay, Johnny has a different take on what happened, it wasn't just plain evil on his part, he was just a young idiot or he chooses to remember stuff differently, just as we all do.'

By contrast, Kreese terminating his commanding officer I suspect was intended as a twist on the 'two sides' theme: no, despite what you probably thought from all the scenes back in 1955, there isn't actually a sympathetic side to Kreese's story, he is a cold-blooded murderer who deliberately chose to do what he did even though they'd already been rescued. It didn't work as well as it could have. Were it up to me, I would not have made it explicit that Kreese caused his CO to fall; I would have had the CO hanging by his fingertips, then the explosions and USAF rescue, then back to Kreese who's looking down at the empty precipice, and with a flat look on his face that we can't interpret as a smile or a scowl, i.e. leave it equivocal about whether the CO fell or was caused to fall by Kreese.

However, I can see some reasonably straightforward paths for how Kreese got to where he is based on that quick sketch of his history. We know Kreese is an abused child, likely fatherless or with an abusive father. We know Kreese realised his CO used the news of his girlfriend's death to unbalance him for the death duel. We know Kreese had seen the CO as a sort of father figure (a common theme in this franchise, Johnny and Danny outright share that characteristic). We know Kreese realised he'd been manipulated and the pit of snakes he dropped the CO into turned up in Cobra Kai's insignia. Kreese, then, acts out the Hollywood (if not real life) pathology of overcompensation: he addresses the series of crappy father figures in his life, or lack of father figures, by being the father that he would have wanted to have - a strong father who believed in showing his children how to strike first, not let the world destroy them, and to rise above their weakness. He believes the principle by which he survived in Vietnam reflects the principle by which he lived his life before the Army: strike first, strike hard, and have no mercy.

Ever heard the expression that we despise most in other people what we hate about ourselves? That's John Kreese. He hates weakness, because he perceived himself as small and weak when he was a young man, and in his heart he knows he didn't win the fight against his CO squarely or on his own skill: he resorted to literally a backstab, and then to killing someone when they were vulnerable. So he pays out extra hard on those he thinks of as weak, and he convinces himself he's trying to destroy that weakness in his students.

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I agree with Peelee here, I don't actually think it was clunky and I also find his backstory interesting.

However, I think where I part with the few others that have commented is that I do think the backstory made Kreese sympathetic. He was bullied, but stands up to his bullies when he sees them abusing the girl. He is respectful, and a hard worker and a go getter. These are all great qualities. He refuses to blow the bomb because his fellow soldier is still in the killzone. He protects the soldier that is breaking down and takes his place in the fight. That's straight up heroic.

His CO, on the other hand, abandons his boys once they are captured. There is no hope, no semblance of morale or brotherhood or strategy. He just blames them all and leaves them to their fear and inevitable deaths. There was nothing somber in his countenance when he had to fight Kreese. Instead, he was glad to get it out of the way and be the last man standing.

I really struggle to see this as the day Kreese became an evil a-hole. I can see it being the first step. I see it more now reading your thoughts and calling out that once the Americans had come, the old order was re-established. So yeah... it was no longer a fight to the death. I guess. I can see it but I also can't. I mean, there's a difference between two men being forced to fight to the death and seeing your commander casually enter the ring with you fully expecting to murder you in the next few moments. I suspect something like that might change your perspective toward them.

But I'm probably over-thinking it. As was mentioned, the snakes are there so this is presumably where Cobra-kai was born.

[Peelee]

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As was mentioned, the snakes are there so this is presumably where Cobra-kai was born.

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Not just Cobra Kai, Kreese's entire obsession with snakes. And it is a full-blown obsession. Dude based his entire style on snakes, describes everything in snake terms, talks about brumation vs hibernation, has a tattoo of a snake getting choked (a king cobra, named as such because it eats cobras), etc.

I liked it as a villainous origin story. The fall of Kreese, in a way.

[Saintheart]

If you want to watch an accurate depiction of reality, might I suggest Planet Earth?

I haven't been too impressed with the first 6.5 billion seasons of it, to be honest, though there are parts of it that were okay. It certainly jumped the shark last season with the whole "Pimply Sphere" pandemic subplot.

[Saintheart]

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I agree with Peelee here, I don't actually think it was clunky and I also find his backstory interesting.

However, I think where I part with the few others that have commented is that I do think the backstory made Kreese sympathetic. He was bullied, but stands up to his bullies when he sees them abusing the girl. He is respectful, and a hard worker and a go getter. These are all great qualities. He refuses to blow the bomb because his fellow soldier is still in the killzone. He protects the soldier that is breaking down and takes his place in the fight. That's straight up heroic.

His CO, on the other hand, abandons his boys once they are captured. There is no hope, no semblance of morale or brotherhood or strategy. He just blames them all and leaves them to their fear and inevitable deaths. There was nothing somber in his countenance when he had to fight Kreese. Instead, he was glad to get it out of the way and be the last man standing.

I really struggle to see this as the day Kreese became an evil a-hole. I can see it being the first step. I see it more now reading your thoughts and calling out that once the Americans had come, the old order was re-established. So yeah... it was no longer a fight to the death. I guess. I can see it but I also can't. I mean, there's a difference between two men being forced to fight to the death and seeing your commander casually enter the ring with you fully expecting to murder you in the next few moments. I suspect something like that might change your perspective toward them.

But I'm probably over-thinking it. As was mentioned, the snakes are there so this is presumably where Cobra-kai was born.

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Not just Cobra Kai, Kreese's entire obsession with snakes. And it is a full-blown obsession. Dude based his entire style on snakes, describes everything in snake terms, talks about brumation vs hibernation, has a tattoo of a snake getting choked (a king cobra, named as such because it eats cobras), etc.

I liked it as a villainous origin story. The fall of Kreese, in a way.

Spoiler: Season 3 and stuff, great comments guys

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I might be overreacting mainly because I'm touchy about this sort of subplot in films or series, but I'll get to that in a minute. That said, can I offer the suggestion that what Doc's sensing is wrong with Kreese's Flip-Flop to the Dark Side is of a similar bent to Anakin Skywalker's "Now I Shall Evil" face turn in ROTS: they seem to come out of nowhere because up to that point you've been getting a series of scenes and story devices that attempt to excuse both characters' choices rather than explain them as they should.

Look, for much of Kreese's backstory, maybe it's my cynicism talking, but the elements they choose to use are well-worn hero's background stuff: Kreese is working class, survived a bad family background, has been a fighter all his life, but is respectful, stands up for girls who are getting harassed, and despite being at the lower rung of the Great Unspoken Western Class System, he hasn't developed the sort of temper which inclines him to Molotov the diner when he gets tripped over by Biff Tannen. And these elements work out for him! The girl picks him, says she'll wait for him, he's picked out for Teh Elite Special Forces in the US Army, and notwithstanding the indoctrination and a PG-15 version of Colonel Kurtz from Apocalypse Now, he still can't bring himself to blow up a buddy for the sake of The Mission. All noble warrior stuff, you know?

But -- to me, and as said this is a similar irk I have with Little Orphan Annie in Revenge of the Ian McDiarmid -- that's what makes his decision to terminate the CO not fit. Because all of these factors, to me, do not explain a sudden desire to murder one's teacher in cold blood. We haven't seen, unless I am forgetting scenes or story beats, Kreese deciding to deliberately cheat, or lie, or try out Being Evil before crossing the rubicon of deliberate murder. We don't really see him as a guy who has poor impulse control, he knows when to pick his battles even back in civilian life. And we don't see the war change him as such to become a murderer; he might realise that his hesitation caused them all to get captured, but his decision to kill the CO is not a decision made overcompensating against hesitation, it is deliberate and directly against the simpler solution. Maybe Kreese kills the CO because he's worried he'll get kicked out of the Army for hesitating and thus blowing the original mission, but again, where is the setup for this? Where are the scenes of Kreese getting hauled over the coals for doing something sneaky, where is the scene that says 'One more screwup, busboy, and it's a dishonourable discharge for you'? Where, in short, does this outright desire to murder someone come from?

As said I probably was prejudiced against this sort of storyline anyway because I personally see the Star Wars prequels as a little bit distasteful, or maybe missing the mark: all 3 of the original films are written as a conscious or unconscious desire to make the audience think that Darth Vader's not such a bad guy. The endless cry for 'context' is the cry of the narcissist: 'Wait, you don't understand, I had reasons for everything horrible I did, it wasn't me, it was my upbringing that made me execute pre-teen children, torture a royal figure, stand by while literally billions of people were turned to cosmic dust, and - until the last - stand by while my own son was being electrocuted and begging for help.' I just get a bad taste in my mouth for this sort of thing, not just personally but also aesthetically, from a story point of view: it cheapens the character's will, it denies him actual agency or the sense that the character is making his own choices and is just being evil Because His Background Says He Must Be.

All that said - good calls fellas.