A Monster for Every Season: Summer 2
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  1. - Top - End - #631
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    Griffon

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    Default Re: This year we kill it: Corona Virus Thread Mark II

    Sometimes, people are just silly.

    Authorities in north Germany have asked more than 8,000 people to get repeat Covid vaccinations because a nurse is suspected of having injected saline instead of vaccine in many cases.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-58186032
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  2. - Top - End - #632
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    Default Re: This year we kill it: Corona Virus Thread Mark II

    Quote Originally Posted by halfeye View Post
    Sometimes, people are just silly.
    Or malicious. Remember this kid?
    May you get EXACTLY what you wish for.

  3. - Top - End - #633
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    Default Re: This year we kill it: Corona Virus Thread Mark II

    I won't go into specifics on recent policy updates relating to COVID (good ones mostly), but I have unrelated good news
    After falling off in May, vaccination rates have been slowly climbing over the last few months, and the US in particular broke a million in a day for the first time since like June. Really glad about that.
    On one hand, about 40% of people have received at least one dose. But, as unfortunately expected, only about 2% of people in low-income countries have at least one dose.
    Hopefully there'll be some sort of concerted effort to start shifting more towards vaccinating, you know, the entire world? There's also research underway about a whole bunch of things related to COVID including an easier to transport vaccine, which would help a lot in getting that 2% up.
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  4. - Top - End - #634
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    Default Re: This year we kill it: Corona Virus Thread Mark II

    I would urge people in more privileged countries to get vaccinated. I feel that until their population has been fully vaccinated then will those vaccines get to those under priviledged countries.

  5. - Top - End - #635
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    Default Re: This year we kill it: Corona Virus Thread Mark II

    The big problem with transporting vaccines is the storage temperature. The mRNA technology behind BioNTech and Moderna has been in development for years and I'd be surprised if anyone can work out how to shift it above dry ice and freezer temperatures so quickly. Oxford, Janssen, and Sputnik V use older technology with refrigerator temperatures and I'd be even more surprised if they can be shifted to room temperature. So, the Third World need fleets of refrigerated lorries and GP surgeries with reliable electricity. I think most can achieve that.
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  6. - Top - End - #636
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    Default Re: This year we kill it: Corona Virus Thread Mark II

    also what happened in my country, a batch of pfizer vaccines basically went bad because of poor storage conditions.

    The moderna and J&J ones seems able to handle normal vaccine refrigiration while pfizer needs special refrigiration methods

  7. - Top - End - #637
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: This year we kill it: Corona Virus Thread Mark II

    Quote Originally Posted by anjxed View Post
    The moderna and J&J ones seems able to handle normal vaccine refrigiration while pfizer needs special refrigiration methods
    Moderna and J&J are best stored between 2 and 8 Centigrade.

    Whereas Pfizer is -90 to -60C.

    And with Moderna looking to offer the better protection compared to J&J to the new variants, it might be the go-to for international efforts.

    Even then, though, is just getting to remote areas AND coordination... which I said a long time ago.
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  8. - Top - End - #638
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    Default Re: This year we kill it: Corona Virus Thread Mark II

    We are living in a real-life science fiction movie that has become a reality to this damn virus. I just found out early this morning in Facebook Messenger that one of my friend's grandmothers passed away from COVID.
    It's time to get my Magikarp on!

  9. - Top - End - #639
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    Default Re: This year we kill it: Corona Virus Thread Mark II

    This one seems appropriate: xkcd: Vaccine Research. Sadly, most people 'researching' the vaccines online aren't hitting the medical studies.
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    Default Re: This year we kill it: Corona Virus Thread Mark II

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    We are living in a real-life science fiction movie that has become a reality to this damn virus. I just found out early this morning in Facebook Messenger that one of my friend's grandmothers passed away from COVID.
    Blast! My sympathies. Small wonder so many are losing patience with those who won't get vaccinated.

    Case in point: the Man who died of a heart condition because he couldn't get into an ICU . He went to 43 of them. 43. They were all full of covid patients, almost all of whom were unvaccinated.


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    Default Re: This year we kill it: Corona Virus Thread Mark II

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Blast! My sympathies. Small wonder so many are losing patience with those who won't get vaccinated.

    Case in point: the Man who died of a heart condition because he couldn't get into an ICU . He went to 43 of them. 43. They were all full of covid patients, almost all of whom were unvaccinated.


    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    He did not go to 43. He went to Cullman hospital, and the staff there contacted 44 other facilities that could provide the care he needed. 43 were unable to take him in, and he was transported to teh 44th, where he passed away. Tiny nitpick that doesn't really change anything, but still.

    Also, significantly better link which doesn't try to autoplay any videos and just has less invasive/annoying site design in general : https://www.npr.org/sections/coronav...ty-ray-demonia
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    Default Re: This year we kill it: Corona Virus Thread Mark II

    My older brother got his first vaccination today. I'm very proud of him.
    It's time to get my Magikarp on!

  13. - Top - End - #643
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    Default Re: This year we kill it: Corona Virus Thread Mark II

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    My older brother got his first vaccination today. I'm very proud of him.
    Ayyyy, congrats! That's awesome!

    Small reminder to keep on wearing a mask when in public since Delta spreads like crazy.
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  14. - Top - End - #644
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I won't go into specifics on recent policy updates relating to COVID (good ones mostly), but I have unrelated good news
    After falling off in May, vaccination rates have been slowly climbing over the last few months, and the US in particular broke a million in a day for the first time since like June. Really glad about that.
    On one hand, about 40% of people have received at least one dose. But, as unfortunately expected, only about 2% of people in low-income countries have at least one dose.
    Hopefully there'll be some sort of concerted effort to start shifting more towards vaccinating, you know, the entire world? There's also research underway about a whole bunch of things related to COVID including an easier to transport vaccine, which would help a lot in getting that 2% up.
    Looks like it's still only about 2% for the low income countries. They're likely to lag high income countries by...quite a lot. Even with sustained efforts, the sheer amount of population and the transportation logistics are daunting. Being in a high income country with a lot of infrastructure in place is handy when unexpected events arise.

    Even here, accidents definitely happened. My vax site accidentally let a bunch spoil, and then, not knowing, injected them into a bunch of people. Fortunately, I missed that batch by a couple of days. Best as I know, nobody died or anything from that, they just had to redo it. Could be worse.

    Unfortunately, the data out of Israel indicates that herd immunity is fairly unlikely. A 41% reduction in symptomatic disease ain't nothing, but it's certainly not enough to push R below 1, even with a 100% vaccination rate. It *does* seem to significantly improve individual outcomes with regards to survival rates and what not, but transmission largely happens early on, when you don't yet know you're sick. Thus, improved individual outcomes are unlikely to have a big effect on herd immunity.

    Perhaps, and this is speculative, a vaccine that targets more than a single spike is needed. Only one avenue of attack is fairly easy for a disease to mutate resistance to, and with many variants already existing, well, efficacy suffers. This isn't a knock on the initial attempts...speed is also a factor, and there are inherent tradeoffs between speed and complexity. Still, vaccines are apparently falling far short of the initially promised performance.

  15. - Top - End - #645
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Looks like it's still only about 2% for the low income countries. They're likely to lag high income countries by...quite a lot. Even with sustained efforts, the sheer amount of population and the transportation logistics are daunting. Being in a high income country with a lot of infrastructure in place is handy when unexpected events arise.

    Even here, accidents definitely happened. My vax site accidentally let a bunch spoil, and then, not knowing, injected them into a bunch of people. Fortunately, I missed that batch by a couple of days. Best as I know, nobody died or anything from that, they just had to redo it. Could be worse.

    Unfortunately, the data out of Israel indicates that herd immunity is fairly unlikely. A 41% reduction in symptomatic disease ain't nothing, but it's certainly not enough to push R below 1, even with a 100% vaccination rate. It *does* seem to significantly improve individual outcomes with regards to survival rates and what not, but transmission largely happens early on, when you don't yet know you're sick. Thus, improved individual outcomes are unlikely to have a big effect on herd immunity.

    Perhaps, and this is speculative, a vaccine that targets more than a single spike is needed. Only one avenue of attack is fairly easy for a disease to mutate resistance to, and with many variants already existing, well, efficacy suffers. This isn't a knock on the initial attempts...speed is also a factor, and there are inherent tradeoffs between speed and complexity. Still, vaccines are apparently falling far short of the initially promised performance.
    The interesting thing to me is that delta seems to not be taking an 'evade immunity' approach so much as an approach based on changing the profile of virus production and distribution, e.g. producing 1000x as much virus early on (presumably at the cost of triggering the host immune response sooner and losing out on spread during a long induction period). Whereas other variants lack that early pulse production, but have changes which are better than delta at evading immunity. A combination of both would be worse for us, but if e.g. we got a variant which evaded the existing immunity well enough that it out-produced delta, maybe it could displace delta's high-production strategy. Though I don't know what cross immunity between variants would look like in that case...

    Anyhow, I guess the point is, we can fairly easily print new mRNA vaccines for variants - that's the cool thing about that technology - but there's not as much we can do about the virus changing its lifecycle towards being infectious earlier. So it'd be better to have a bunch of variants which change their shape to evade the vaccines as opposed to variants which evolve in a way that makes transmission inherently less sensitive to the state of the host's immune response.

  16. - Top - End - #646
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    Default Re: This year we kill it: Corona Virus Thread Mark II

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Perhaps, and this is speculative, a vaccine that targets more than a single spike is needed. Only one avenue of attack is fairly easy for a disease to mutate resistance to, and with many variants already existing, well, efficacy suffers. This isn't a knock on the initial attempts...speed is also a factor, and there are inherent tradeoffs between speed and complexity. Still, vaccines are apparently falling far short of the initially promised performance.
    If memory serves, there are studies on the effectiveness of mixing vaccinations (so say Pfizer 1st, then Moderna after 10-12 weeks).

  17. - Top - End - #647
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    Default Re: This year we kill it: Corona Virus Thread Mark II

    Quote Originally Posted by Storm_Of_Snow View Post
    If memory serves, there are studies on the effectiveness of mixing vaccinations (so say Pfizer 1st, then Moderna after 10-12 weeks).
    All current vaccines rely on targeting the spike protein alone, IIRC. Therefore, we shouldn't expect to see huge protection gains from mixing and matching.

    Booster studies are goin' on, and some of the data here appears a bit contentious, though even here, most seem to be reccomending againsta mix and match approach for booster vaccines. I've seen some suggestion of a rNa booster for the one shot vaxes*, but most combinations just don't have a ton of data/studies yet. I wouldn't *expect* any particularly bad interactions from doing so, because the original vax has long since left your system, all you're really doing is stimulating antibody production...but without actual tests from professionals, I probably wouldn't try it myself.

    That said, there is at least a small subculture that has already been getting additional vaccinations by creative means(often crossing state borders and pretending to be unvaxxed) and they don't *seem* to have had any severe known problems yet.

    *shrug*

    Lack of information is an ongoing confounding factor. For instance, if we take the CDC's data literally, we already beat the first covid wave, and almost all of the illness across the US is now caused by Delta, which originated outside the US and wasn't recorded here until March. So, basically a second pandemic swept across the entire country unslowed by vaccinations. If they are correct, vaccines are...immensely useless in stopping the spread, even if they help for outcomes.

    The reason to doubt this is that there is no test to distinguish delta from any other strain of covid. Sure, the CDC has other methods available(genomic sequencing), but all the broadly available testing isn't able to tell what flavor you have, just that you popped positive for covid of some kind. That greatly reduces available data, and correspondingly increases risk of error. Perhaps prevalence of delta varies significantly from the 93% believed. We can't reasonably sequence the genome for every single patient, hell, we're short on even the basic testing kits now. "Vax or test" mandates cause high test usage among people who are unlikely to be ill, and supply chains are still playing catchup a bit, so test availability is somewhat spotty.

    So, while it's most definitely interesting to theorize, I am a little bit hesitant to make any sort of bold claims. If you dig through journals, you get a lot of conflicting stuff(Lancet recently published a study advising against boosters altogether, for instance, but there's support for it elsewhere). I'm sure it'll all shake out eventually, but attempting to project too strongly based on incomplete data has bitten us a few times.

    *J&J, Astrazeneca. I'm less familiar with the Chinese vaccinations, etc, more so the US/European strategies.

  18. - Top - End - #648
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    Default Re: This year we kill it: Corona Virus Thread Mark II

    I don't think a vaccine to expose the immune system to multiple virus proteins is necessary because it's already happening, meaning we're already being exposed to the various proteins of real Covid particles. Delta variant is so contagious, it's practically unstoppable, with New Zealand looking to be only exception, and repeated exposure to it is simply unavoidable. The single spike protein was chosen because it's needed to stick to cells and a mutation in that renders the virus non-infectious. So far, it looks like the scientists got it right and Delta only achieves vaccine escape by infecting and retransmitting before an already primed immune system can gear up and purge it.

    It also means boosters aren't needed, except for those with poor immune systems, as the immune system gets repeated reminders. Endemic equilibrium. Like seasonal flu. Only nastier.
    Last edited by warmachine; 2021-09-28 at 09:26 AM.
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  19. - Top - End - #649
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    *J&J, Astrazeneca. I'm less familiar with the Chinese vaccinations, etc, more so the US/European strategies.
    China's Sinovac utilizes the inactivated virus method.

    They're advocating boosters. From a Chinese news site:

    "Led by reputed Chinese epidemiologist Zhong Nanshan, researchers from the Guangzhou Center for Disease Control and Prevention found that two shots of the vaccines provided an efficacy of 59 percent against COVID-19 caused by the Delta variant, 70.2 percent against moderate form of the disease, and 100 percent against severe cases."
    May you get EXACTLY what you wish for.

  20. - Top - End - #650
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    Default Re: This year we kill it: Corona Virus Thread Mark II

    I am...very leery of 100% claims, particularly given the extremely troubled nature of the data coming out of China over the pandemic.

    I particularly doubt that it is so immensely effective when they resorted to a second wave of severe lockdowns. That is generally not the kind of measure that says everything is under control.

  21. - Top - End - #651
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    Default Re: This year we kill it: Corona Virus Thread Mark II

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    I am...very leery of 100% claims, particularly given the extremely troubled nature of the data coming out of China over the pandemic.

    I particularly doubt that it is so immensely effective when they resorted to a second wave of severe lockdowns. That is generally not the kind of measure that says everything is under control.
    Severe could mean “on a ventillator” and moderate could mean “in the hospital”. If so those numbers could still require heavy lockdowns.

  22. - Top - End - #652
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    Default Re: This year we kill it: Corona Virus Thread Mark II

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    I am...very leery of 100% claims, particularly given the extremely troubled nature of the data coming out of China over the pandemic.

    I particularly doubt that it is so immensely effective when they resorted to a second wave of severe lockdowns. That is generally not the kind of measure that says everything is under control.
    Reporting 100% could mean e.g.: in our study with N people in the control group, N/50 got it, N/250 had to go to the hospital, and N/2000 died; however, N=20000 and no one happened to die in the treatment group. So could be 80% effective, 90% effective, 100% effective...

  23. - Top - End - #653
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    Default Re: This year we kill it: Corona Virus Thread Mark II

    Quote Originally Posted by Chen View Post
    Severe could mean “on a ventillator” and moderate could mean “in the hospital”. If so those numbers could still require heavy lockdowns.
    They issued rules earlier this year banning funerals for covid victims. That's not an "everything is okay" option.

    They have been massively underreporting deaths for the entire pandemic. The massive backlogs at funeral homes along with the above measure clearly demonstrated that.

    Looking at the WHO's testing, it explicitly notes that "only a few individuals over 60 were enrolled" which is...the main risk group for Covid. If the vaccination was only tested on the young, the numbers are essentially garbage.

    Chile used their vaccine, and according to their studies on over 10 million people, it is only 86.3% effective at preventing death, which is...well past the definition of severe, I think. Worse, those numbers were pre-delta, so the efficacy may be far worse now.
    Last edited by Tyndmyr; 2021-09-29 at 09:38 AM.

  24. - Top - End - #654
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    Default Re: This year we kill it: Corona Virus Thread Mark II

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Chile used their vaccine, and according to their studies on over 10 million people, it is only 86.3% effective at preventing death, which is...well past the definition of severe, I think. Worse, those numbers were pre-delta, so the efficacy may be far worse now.
    Depends on what they mean by 86.3%, if they are taking the death rate due to unvaccinated covid as 100% then reduction of that to 13.7% is pretty good if not ideal, if on the other hand they are taking the whole population as 100% that's pretty near to the unvaccinated death rate.
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    Default Re: This year we kill it: Corona Virus Thread Mark II

    A 20-year-old girl died this week over here because of a stroke, after being vaccinated with Janssen vaccine. It has not been confirmed that the vaccine itself has been the cause of her death, but that hasn't stopped the anti-vax crowd of grabbing it and running with it. I've heard there are big protests going on in her name, with her father being on the forefront of it. "She is not a statistic", he says, "she was my daughter."

    I wanna make this official. Her death is a tragedy. It would have been a tragedy no matter her age, but one so young... I am truly sorry for her.

    But at the same time, I am deeply disgusted by anti-vax crowd coopting her death for their loathsome ends. Would pointing out that her death and all deaths like hers are nowhere near those caused by the virus itself? That contraceptives cause more blood clots than vaccines? That peanuts are more dangerous due to, relatively speaking, high prevalence of allergies?

    Speaking to a coworker today, she gave an idea that every people vaccinated with mRNA vaccine should be on antithrombotic therapy for some time. Of course, further studies would be required, but hey, I find it a good idea.

    Would that soothe antivaxers? Would it inflame them more? I'm betting on the latter.

    I am despearing pretty deeply for humanity right now, suffice to say.
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    Default Re: This year we kill it: Corona Virus Thread Mark II

    I see it as a natural problem with human thinking. People naturally understand the world through stories and narratives, while statistics and analysis are very unnatural.

    People get killed by hit by lightning at 10 times the rate as they get killed by serial killers, and killed at the same rate. People watch shows about serial killers and avoid hitchhiking due to fears about serial killers, because it is a story but getting struck by lightning is just an event.

    Getting killed by a chemical is a story, getting killed by a disease is just a fact.
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    Default Re: This year we kill it: Corona Virus Thread Mark II

    It seems there's a very strong bias in some circles as to how the trolley problem should be resolved - its better to do nothing that can be traced back to any particular person's decision or action and have more people die in the end, rather than take an action which definitely causes a particular death but in general saves lives. And that perception extends to actions taken by others as well. So people tend to worry more about e.g. the murder rate in a place than the local lung cancer rate. With murder, its clear what killed someone, whereas with lung cancer, well, there could be lots of prior causes other than the local pollution levels which could be blamed for it - people around here like to smoke more, people around here have a genetic bias towards it, people around here just happen to live in a less healthy way (but I'll be fine!), etc.

    So some people would rather take a chance with being 'vaccinated' by a hostile virus that's far more likely to harm them but is non-sentient and non-social over being vaccinated by a drug designed by another person, because that feeling of being put in harm's way as a result of another human's request triggers a whole slew of different social reasoning than just personal risk evaluations, adapted for a very different circumstance than the one we're in.

    And I think that kind of bias isn't restricted just to anti-vax sentiment. Medical regulations are heavily slanted at avoiding liability or blame rather than maximizing beneficial outcomes.
    Last edited by NichG; 2021-09-29 at 02:45 PM.

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    Default Re: This year we kill it: Corona Virus Thread Mark II

    True, but they also kill other people with their attitudes. Because of the high number of non-vaccinated people in certain areas, the hospitals there are full of COVID patients and therefore other people can't get the treatment they need.
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    Default Re: This year we kill it: Corona Virus Thread Mark II

    Quote Originally Posted by farothel View Post
    True, but they also kill other people with their attitudes. Because of the high number of non-vaccinated people in certain areas, the hospitals there are full of COVID patients and therefore other people can't get the treatment they need.
    Yeah, that's kind of my point. The act with more death but (if death happens) less possibility for direct attribution is favored over the act with less death but (if death happens) more possibility for direct attribution. A hundred thousand people being responsible for a thousand deaths is being held to be better than one person being responsible for one death, even when that death is their own. It's like the justification for using firing squads for executions rather than a single person - that way, no one knows whose bullet was actually the one that killed the person so they can all move on in their own minds as if they personally had nothing to do with it.
    Last edited by NichG; 2021-09-29 at 03:37 PM.

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    Default Re: This year we kill it: Corona Virus Thread Mark II

    Quote Originally Posted by NichG View Post
    It seems there's a very strong bias in some circles as to how the trolley problem should be resolved - its better to do nothing that can be traced back to any particular person's decision or action and have more people die in the end, rather than take an action which definitely causes a particular death but in general saves lives....
    And I think that kind of bias isn't restricted just to anti-vax sentiment. Medical regulations are heavily slanted at avoiding liability or blame rather than maximizing beneficial outcomes.
    Yes and that also plays into the trust deficit we are currently seeing. Because it is also true at the government agency

    Spoiler: grrrrrrr....vent
    Show
    Most people around here don't pay much attention to our local history with the CDC etc. But many people know someone who does. And the local history is BAD. And I'm talking less than 6 years. We have had multi drug resistant TB, bad doctors giving out hepatitis C as a bonus to "stem cell therapy", a meningitis outbreak at our local uni even before the fires, and isolation of critically fragile elderly due to secondary disasters (and do you evacuate in front of yet more threats). In all cases the CDC advice was keep calm, do nothing, don't investigate, and report everything. There has been a "nothing to be done" attitude combined with a sticking ones head in the sand, and nobody wanting to take any kind of stand. Because if an early action works, nothing happens, and those people will be blamed for the costs of that stand. And because unless someone does something different no data is generated to show anything can work...so there is no data to recommend doing anything....so people don't try...which helps prove that nothing can be done. (pardon me while I grrrrr)

    We (as in my county) happened to have a County Health Officer who didn't much like that. And in California country officials have the powers that in most US States hold at the state level. She did do investigations and found the problems. At times even going explicitly against CDC and HHS advice. What do you know, she found stuff. She tried things to mitigate the problems. And now the CDC even uses some of solutions as recommended practice (because they have data now showing it can work....without data try nothing). So locally we probably have this effect more strongly. She made it pretty obvious that trust in the larger system was deeply misplaced...there was enough CYA to let people die. This was in local papers and TV.

    The FDA has been rocked by low key scientific scandals where the people judging efficacy or writing standards are on the payroll of the drug companies benefiting (So many waivers). Between p-hacking, malstructuring (mis-structuring?) studies allowed people to come up with answered desired by the study sponsor (NEJM, JAMA, Lancet and more even came out with a group letter nearly 20 years ago saying that these problems were so bad that you couldn't take anything they published as good anymore....caused no change). And as long as that study was there to CYA and the panal's gave their recommendation people would give out meds that were horribly bad. But CYA was preserved, few ever paid and nobody has gone to jail. Profits were there enough and members of the public die for it.

    The public and local governments have gotten side swiped by this pandemic, there has been very little prep work really. People know what a fire evacuation is, know how it has been announced and while sure there are almost holdout it has become a normal thing to comply with. That social distancing has been shown to work and should be normal tool...just wasn't impressed into the culture of either the public or the people asked to impose or enforce one....hell it actually is pretty new (mid naughties) and had gone 180 degrees against over 40 years of previous CDC guidance. So when asked there are still a lot of people who are set against it and people are set to being attacked for either doing it or failing to do it....in which case safer to do nothing-see above quote.

    Now all this is known by a subset of those who pay attention to these types of things. And to use Malcolm Gladwell's terms they have counted as mavens now that suddenly everyone wants to know about who to trust.

    And if you come looking for a villain for your conspiracy theory for whatever idea you are selling there is plenty to work with and adding a fair bit of truth sells the lies.


    I'm not saying that these groups are evil or anything but that they have earned a lot of the distrust that exists. And than when combined with poor preparation. It isn't surprising that we get the reactions we do. It is a pretty understandable response to being the people not at the switch of the trolley problem but being the people who live on the tracks.

    I would say that the CDC etc are like brilliant oncologists. Great at what they do, very data driven and reliant on tests etc, but not necessarily suited to the current situation which is more like an ER doc. ER docs have to make educated guesses on what is wrong half the time and start treating it. If they wait for blood work, the cultures and genetic tests the issue may have grown so much worse that it is untreatable or already fatal. And the system strongly pushes against making those kind of calls before all the data is in. and in the meantime what is safest is not to make a call....not to pull that trolley switch.

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