This year we kill it: Corona Virus Thread Mark II

[pendell]

The Old thread is at 51 pages, so it's time for that thread to die, much as I hope the CoronaVirus will die as well.

Although, truth be told, I expect it to be a permanent issue and we will be continually vaccinating against it for the rest of our lives. I know the comparison to the flu is odious, but if it mutates we will constantly have to be on guard against it from now on.

Leaving aside the biology (about which I know practically nothing) removing the vaccine means truly believing that practically every doctor, every government, every chemist in the world is lying to you and is totally onboard with an evil plot to mutate the world's DNA for.......................reasons.
That's not rational

The problem is that they are not listening to us. They listen to their own closed circle of friends who reinforce their beliefs. And the more they are ridiculed , the more they withdraw into that closed circle. I deal with such people in my own family.

I've said it before, but hollywood has done us a dis-service. "The government/church/corporation has a secret plan to kill us all" is a staple of science fiction since forever. Da Vinci code is one example, and the video game series/novel tie-in Rainbow Six actually had a scheme to kill 90% of the world's population with a live virus vaccine as the plot, which the heroes had to stop. We don't trust each other, or our institutions, and feeding that distrust has been a major income source for decades. Now we reap the consequences of that action.

Although, in fairness, it's very hard to have a story in the modern world where the government or other powers aren't dysfunctional that way. If the government is on the ball, there's no place for an action hero to come in, break the rules, and save the day. If the government officials are intelligent and respond rationally to threats, the story wraps up in 15 minutes, and no one will pay to watch that.


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Tvtyrant]

I think Thomas Pynchon's insight on the subject is also correct. Conspiracy theories reassure people that humans are the center of the narrative and the world is more then just random noise and chaos.

Imagine how much more easy it is to swallow that bad people made up the whole thing and are forcing everyone to blow up a minor problem then to believe the best efforts of the whole world are barely sufficient to best a simple virus.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

They listen to their own closed circle of friends who reinforce their beliefs. And the more they are ridiculed , the more they withdraw into that closed circle.

I'm sorry, but this is putting the cart before the horse. They did not withdraw into the close circle (or bubble) because they were ridiculed. They withdrew there of their own volition, no amount of persuasiveness will draw them out, and what is left to do is derision. Conspiracy theories work very much the same as any other personality cult: they have rejected reality for a fantasy from a persuasive man* that promises to exalt them above all others, and the first dogma of the fantasy is that any information that contradicts the fantasy is a lie and the person providing it must be rejected as a THEM and an OTHER. This idea that if we just sit with them and calmly explain to them that their beliefs are not grounded in reality will just work has been attempted endless times, and has never produced any meaningful results.

As to blaming Holliwood, that too is more than suspect. Cults have existed for forever. The current version of it - QAnon - is just a rehash of the centuries old antisemitic blood libel conspiracy theory. Which as far as I can tell is from the 1500s

Grey Wolf

*Or almost always a man. I won't reject the possibility of some women-led cult somewhere, even if I don't know of any

[pendell]

:Nod: Sounds very similar to the child witch phenomenon in Africa, though it has been an issue in the west historically, also.

Humans don't like to accept the idea that the universe has a great deal of randomness and we have very little power to overcome it. Instead, the common belief is that the world is, by default, perfect and orderly. And if it isn't, it's because some human actor, a "witch", is somehow bringing misfortune on the community. So misfortune or mishap becomes an excuse to find the person at fault and at the very least outcast them from the community. Sort of like the werewolf games we play in the game section of this forum, except there are no actual werewolves. it does, however, provide a useful pretext for outcasting the poor or the unpopular or minorities who dare to be more than abject slaves before their society's dominant caste.

Or another example would be Kipling's "Just so" stories. Again, nothing in these stories happen by random chance. If the serpent can't walk on legs it must be because it did something to be cursed and lose them. If a leopard has spots it must be because it offended some god or other and now its descendents bear the mark of shame generations later and so on. It's always someone's fault -- which implies we can avert calamity if we just do the right things and perform the right rituals.

People would rather believe in human bad actors being responsible for misfortune because otherwise they have to acknowledge that we are all very small people clinging to a little ball hurtling through space, which could be instantly be destroyed by any of a thousand mis-chances, and there's nothing we can do about it.

Although I have to wonder whether that second viewpoint is even viable from a societal point of view. Because if humans embraced the idea that they are helpless in the face of the cosmos and they cannot appease it, they might very well simply decide to "eat , drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die." A human society built on such principles probably wouldn't last long in the face of one that stuck together in the face of adversity because they still have some kind of hope, however irrational that hope may be.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[sihnfahl]

Alas, vaccination drives seem to be lagging.

I live and work in a high tourist throughput area, and ... well, they have 400 doses available for a county of 80k.

This may take a while.

[warty goblin]

To be clear, I am absolutely against any mockery or disdain for somebody not knowing how any given biomedical thing (or really anything) works. Ignorance is not a sin or personal failing, and nobody should be made to feel it is. If they ask questions in good faith, they should be politely and respectfully answered.

To reach the conclusion that a vaccine is going to mutate your DNA though, you have to deliberately ignore enormous amounts of information, easily available for people at pretty much any level of scientific literacy. At that point, a functioning adult's incorrect belief isn't lack of correct information, its a willfully chosen state of being. For a medical professional, its also a direct dereliction of their duty.

Basically I think at some point a person's mistaken beliefs have to considered beyond anybody's ability to rectify. Not because they aren't worthy of it - judgements of worth are usually a dead end - but simply because we (thankfully!) lack the ability to externally change the mind of somebody who doesn't want it changed. Maybe with reflection this man can divorce himself from the BS he's fallen into, maybe he can't, and that's pretty much up to him.



Closer to home, it's time for Fun With Probability And Graph Theory: Dangerous Disease Edition, the game that will have your whole family grimacing in worry! My girlfriend's best friend was exposed on Saturday, and the gf saw her on Sunday. Said friend tested negative on Monday. Both the friend's exposure, and my girlfriend's exposure were outdoors and I believe fairly distanced.

The test isn't particularly good evidence one way or the other, it's too close to exposure time for that. But the gf's exposure was so close to the friend's that even the friend does have it, she was extremely unlikely to be infectious at that point.

Conclusion: Friend is likely to be safe. Girlfriend is extremely likely to be safe. I hate this game.

[Astral Avenger]

I haven't weighed in on the previous thread, but I have worked as a statistical analyst on several studies for various drug and therapy combinations to treat Covid-19. I can't give any more detail than that due to NDAs, but I can say that as someone who has specifically been paid to do the math, I will be getting vaccinated at my first opportunity.

TLDR: Getting poked with a needle in the arm a couple times is way better than getting poked in the trachea with a ventilator.

[sihnfahl]

If they ask questions in good faith, they should be politely and respectfully answered.

IMO, no question asked is made in bad faith. A 'question' where the individual is expecting a specific answer and rejects all others is not a question; it's a search for validation.

Also:

Rockphed: I could swear that just about all carcinogens mess with DNA expression.

Carcinogens damage DNA. There are several ways they do so, but they're literally damaging the DNA during replication.

[Rogar Demonblud]

And there's a new variant in South Africa. Again, more infectious but likely not more lethal.

And no, calmly explaining to a pharmacist that has presumably had at least four years of university education that no substance that fits in a bottle can possibly do what they claim it will do is not going to produce any result on the the delusional maniac other than you being branded a THEM. He already got that education, and had to throw the whole thing into a bin if he's so far around the bend as to believe for a second the nonsense he spouts. Further education will be similarly ignored.

Actually, a PharmD would be six years. Grueling years at that. More likely this is actually just some lab tech without real training and education.

[Keltest]

And there's a new variant in South Africa. Again, more infectious but likely not more lethal.

Actually, a PharmD would be six years. Grueling years at that. More likely this is actually just some lab tech without real training and education.

I dont think you get to work at a pharmacy in any sort of capacity where youre actually handling the various medications and such without at least a certain amount of education. Even lab techs need to go to school to learn tech stuff.

[pendell]

I dont think you get to work at a pharmacy in any sort of capacity where youre actually handling the various medications and such without at least a certain amount of education. Even lab techs need to go to school to learn tech stuff.

It's vocational training. You need to get certified by passing an exam. Getting prepped for the exam is 400 course hours/ 1 year worth of study. The company I work for offers a course in that, in fact.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Tvtyrant]

It's vocational training. You need to get certified by passing an exam. Getting prepped for the exam is 400 course hours/ 1 year worth of study. The company I work for offers a course in that, in fact.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I looked up the wages and that is one dead end job. The average pharmacy tech makes just over minimum wage, and it has no college requirements. It's analogous to a forklift driving certification.

[sihnfahl]

I looked up the wages and that is one dead end job. The average pharmacy tech makes just over minimum wage, and it has no college requirements. It's analogous to a forklift driving certification.

Right, in Wisconsin, they just have to have graduated a pharmacy school. No college required.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

More likely this is actually just some lab tech without real training and education.

[citation needed]. The AP article I linked refers to them as a pharmacist, and for comparison, refers to the one that raised the alarm when they arrived one morning and found the vials outside the fridge as a pharmacist technician, so they are aware that they are different. Sounds to me like he had gone through the full 4 or 6 years or however long it is in that state.

GW

[Tvtyrant]

Right, in Wisconsin, they just have to have graduated a pharmacy school. No college required.

Nope. Wisconsin has no pharmacy tech requirements at all.

Most states have extremely low requirements, which is why the techs are paid so little. The highest paying state is New York at $17.50 an hour, which is pennies. Now if he is an actual pharmacist it is a whole other ballgame, but the techs are more then likely working joes.

[KillianHawkeye]

Imagine how much more easy it is to swallow that bad people made up the whole thing and are forcing everyone to blow up a minor problem then to believe the best efforts of the whole world are barely sufficient to best a simple virus.

I think the issue is that the whole world isn't putting forth their best efforts.

[pendell]

[citation needed]. The AP article I linked refers to them as a pharmacist, and for comparison, refers to the one that raised the alarm when they arrived one morning and found the vials outside the fridge as a pharmacist technician, so they are aware that there are different. Sounds to me like he had gone through the full 4 or 6 years or however long it is in that state.

GW

Urban Milwaukee confirms: He is a licensed pharmacist, not merely a pharmacy tech.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Tvtyrant]

I think the issue is that the whole world isn't putting forth their best efforts.

George S. Sorel divided personality types into optimists, pessimists and cynics. His use of the words isn't the same as ours (also he was French so it wasn't the same words.)

By these he meant that people underestimated the amount of effort something took or overestimated it. Optimists think the smallest effort should be sufficient, so they go through life thinking problems are relatively small. Pessimists think any issue will require massive efforts to accomplish, and shy away from trying to solve problems that aren't pressing because they believe it will require tearing the world apart to fix it. Cynics are the optimists who have lost faith in accomplishing things because they have consistently been wrong (I don't know what he calls pessimists who realize it doesn't take that much work.)

From his point of view the issue would be caused by optimists thinking two weeks would solve the problem, and when they discover that this isn't they become cynics and lose faith that anything can be fixed at all. Between personality conflicts and conspiracy theories being spread around it's hard to convince people who have either lost hope or never believed in the issue that they can fix it.

Urban Milwaukee confirms: He is a licensed pharmacist, not merely a pharmacy tech.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

So big oof there.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Uff da, I can't even...

Okay, we need to recheck standards at whatever institution trained this particular monkey, because they are not earning their keep.

[pendell]

Uff da, I can't even...

Okay, we need to recheck standards at whatever institution trained this particular monkey, because they are not earning their keep.

I don't think the institution could have caught this. Perhaps he didn't have these conspiracy ideas when he went there. Or it's also possible he'd give the answers the institutions wanted while not actually believing them himself. All the institution can show by testing is that you read and understood the material well enough to pass an exam; it gives no indication as to whether you're going to safely use that information, or go off to build a steam-powered rocket to prove the earth is flat with an engineering degree.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't think the institution could have caught this. Perhaps he didn't have these conspiracy ideas when he went there. Or it's also possible he'd give the answers the institutions wanted while not actually believing them himself.

Agreed. I refer again to cults and how their members are gathered. Intelligence, education and the like (or lack thereof) is not a crucial characteristic. Both intelligent and stupid people can fall in the trance of the charismatic leader. Far more crucial is a feeling of being abandoned by the world, and a desire to belong.

All the institution can show by testing is that you read and understood the material well enough to pass an exam; it gives no indication as to whether you're going to safely use that information, or go off to build a steam-powered rocket to prove the earth is flat with an engineering degree.

To be fair, there seems to be a decent amount of evidence that Mike Hughes was not in fact a flat earther, just pretended to be one so he could get donations from flat-earthers to build his steam powered death trap. To be even more fair, I'm not sure "pretending to be a member of the group to scam the true believers" is a better position to be in that "rube".

Grey Wolf

[georgie_leech]

To be even more fair, I'm not sure "pretending to be a member of the group to scam the true believers" is a better position to be in that "rube".

Grey Wolf

It's at least more fun for the steampunk rocket guy.

[Rynjin]

Grey Wolf

*Or almost always a man. I won't reject the possibility of some women-led cult somewhere, even if I don't know of any

Arguably, Gwyneth Paltrow is a female cult leader; her Goop "brand" is pretty close to qualifying by any metric.

[Bartmanhomer]

Anyway, as someone else mentions before in the old Coronavirus thread that we're not clear at the end of the tunnel yet. I agree and we still have a long way to go when everything goes back to normal.

[sihnfahl]

Anyway, as someone else mentions before in the old Coronavirus thread that we're not clear at the end of the tunnel yet. I agree and we still have a long way to go when everything goes back to normal.

My current worry is that we won't be able to vaccinate enough to hit the 'wall' requirement before there's enough mutations to require a second vaccine to be developed and injected.

[Bartmanhomer]

My current worry is that we won't be able to vaccinate enough to hit the 'wall' requirement before there's enough mutations to require a second vaccine to be developed and injected.

What do you mean by the 'wall' requirement?

[sihnfahl]

What do you mean by the 'wall' requirement?

When there's enough people vaccinated that the virus can't transmit to another individual and won't be in a state to mutate.

[Bartmanhomer]

When there's enough people vaccinated that the virus can't transmit to another individual and won't be in a state to mutate.

Oh, I see but I think we have a great chance to vaccinated everybody and the outcome is very good so far.

[Rogar Demonblud]

What outcome? The first half injections are trickling out to those who need them. We won't start to have outcomes until a couple weeks after people start getting the second shot and immunity kicks in.

[comicshorse]

I believe the first shot does provide partial immunity