This year we kill it: Corona Virus Thread Mark II

[warty goblin]

They got my vote. I can't stand needles. This whole vaccination business isn't exactly something I look forwards to.

As I like to tell people, I have no opposition to vaccine. Just the needle. I'm an anti-needler.

I mean needles are hardly my favorite, but on WNG's List of Sustained Sharp Instrument Trauma, they're way down the list. Hardly any bleeding, and absolutely no permanent nerve damage. Plus, nobody ever decides to give you a shot right through your fingernail, and I've had a few knife mishaps that did exactly that.

[Sigako]

Don't like needles, at all. But one shot I can endure. Even two. Especially since they use these new ultra-thin needles you can barely feel (not like in my infancy, when I had to be restrained by 3 people).

[snowblizz]

At one point when I was a child they gave a vaccine in a sugarcube. I've never forgotten there's an alternative. They should put some effort into doing that for more vaccines.

[sihnfahl]

At one point when I was a child they gave a vaccine in a sugarcube. I've never forgotten there's an alternative. They should put some effort into doing that for more vaccines.

You mean the old Polio vaccine distribution in the US. There's a reason why they stopped doing that... increased chance of VAPP (Vaccine-associated paralytic polio) when the supposedly inactivated virus reactivates. While rare, it does occur. So notoriously risk-averse companies went with the alternative.

Then there was the Cutter Incident...

Also, the viral proteins in question have to be able to withstand the pH of stomach acid.

[Osuniev]

Anyone here feels they have a clear grasp of what's going on with the Astrazeneca vaccine ? They are suspending it here in France, and Germany and Italy, due to a possible side effect who caused at least a death. I feel this has ruined my only chance of convincing my Mom (a long time antivaxxer) that vaccines could help.

And, well, I feel like she does have a point.

[sihnfahl]

Anyone here feels they have a clear grasp of what's going on with the Astrazeneca vaccine ?

Long story short? There were 37 cases of thrombosis - 15 deep vein (clots that form in the legs) and 22 pulmonary (clots in the lungs). In 17 million injections.

While evidence is that the vaccine injection is not the reason for the clots, they're holding off until they can review the cases because of 'perceptional issues'.

[Bartmanhomer]

Well, I have a little fever last night and I fully recovered.

[Tyndmyr]

Anyone here feels they have a clear grasp of what's going on with the Astrazeneca vaccine ?...

And, well, I feel like she does have a point.

I have no particular insights to that vaccine.

However, if they are pulling it for a single death, that is somewhat comforting. That indicates a fairly high standard of safety.

Perhaps the two of you would feel more comfortable looking at the vaccine varieties to see which is safest. After all, quite a lot of people are getting them in a short amount of time. If one has a chance to be lethal, it'll show up quite quickly.

It isn't quite as fast as just getting whatever the first available vaccine is, but if you are concerned about side effects, waiting for your vaccine of choice should be doable.

[Keltest]

Got my first dose today. My arm feels like somebody stuck a needle in it then ripped out a bunch of arm hair when the band-aid came off, but that's all. And since that stuff actually happened, that's probably a good thing.

[sihnfahl]

Perhaps the two of you would feel more comfortable looking at the vaccine varieties to see which is safest. After all, quite a lot of people are getting them in a short amount of time. If one has a chance to be lethal, it'll show up quite quickly.

In the US, we have VAERS - the vaccine Adverse event reporting system. It can be accessed via CDC's Wonder.

You can break it down by manufacturer, and yes, it has the COVID19 vaccine in it.

And the EU has adrreports.

[snowblizz]

Long story short? There were 37 cases of thrombosis - 15 deep vein (clots that form in the legs) and 22 pulmonary (clots in the lungs). In 17 million injections.

While evidence is that the vaccine injection is not the reason for the clots, they're holding off until they can review the cases because of 'perceptional issues'.

Read the Swedish authorities said they were indeed reviewing the vaccine but not because of the blood clots which in fact have been less common than random chance would provide.

You mean the old Polio vaccine distribution in the US.

No, I'm neither old nor in the US. Though polio sounds familiar.

Also, the viral proteins in question have to be able to withstand the pH of stomach acid.

See, there they have something to work on.

[sihnfahl]

Read the Swedish authorities said they were indeed reviewing the vaccine but not because of the blood clots which in fact have been less common than random chance would provide.

The Folkhälsomyndigheten report, though?

"– Beslutet är en försiktighetsåtgärd, säger statsepidemiolog Anders Tegnell.

Europeiska läkemedelsmyndigheten (EMA) och Läkemedelsverket utreder rapporter om misstänkta biverkningar om blodpropp i kombination med blödning hos individer som vaccinerats med Astra Zenecas vaccin mot covid-19. I utredningen granskas de rapporter om misstänkta biverkningar som kommit in de senaste dagarna för att avgöra om det finns ett orsakssamband till vaccinet eller inte.

De misstänkta biverkningarna har innefattat blodpropp (tromboser) i kombination med låga nivåer av blodplättar (trombocytopeni) hos ett fåtal personer. I Sverige har inget sådant fall hittills rapporterats in.

Det är högsta prioritet att vaccinerna som används har en hög säkerhetsprofil, vilket är anledningen till att Läkemedelsverket och EMA nu utreder de misstänkta fallen.

Astra Zenecas vaccin ger ett gott skydd mot covid-19 och det totala antalet vaccindoser som givits uppgår till 17 miljoner.

– Det finns en god kunskap om vaccinet, men det är ändå viktigt att vi nu pausar vaccinationen tills EMA utrett om dessa händelser kan ha ett samband med vaccination, säger Anders Tegnell.

Folkhälsomyndigheten samverkar med Läkemedelsverket i frågan och följer löpande resultat från utredningen."

So... hm!

No, I'm neither old nor in the US. Though polio sounds familiar.

I'm not THAT old, but that was how it was originally distributed - liquid form, dropped onto sugar to coax kids to take it.

Lots of stories from those days... and yes, not all of them nice. Especially in the days of the smallpox vaccine, when it required some scraping of the arm. Folks old enough to have been born during the smallpox era may still have the tell-tale scar... which is one way to know, in the US, if they were born before 1973...

[farothel]

The main issue at this moment is that a lot of people are getting vaccinated in a very short period of time with a lot of media attention.

And while I don't know the data (only what's being reported in the media) so I won't be commenting on whether or not the AstraZeneca vaccine causes blood cloths, there is one thing I would like to point out: it's not because something happened after you were vaccinated that it's caused by the vaccine.

We had that discussion here as well, as some people died after being vaccinated. But since we're vaccinating at this point people of 85+ years old, often with underlying conditions, death is something that unfortunately can happen and has not necessarily anything to do with the vaccine. And given the fact that the amount of people in that age category in our hospitals or dying from COVID has dropped to almost zero, I'd say the vaccines are working.

[snowblizz]

The Folkhälsomyndigheten report, though?

De misstänkta biverkningarna har innefattat blodpropp (tromboser) i kombination med låga nivåer av blodplättar (trombocytopeni) hos ett fåtal personer. I Sverige har inget sådant fall hittills rapporterats in.

So... hm!

Well was just reading what the papers said. But yes that, blood clots and the exact opposite at the same time? Funky.

The problem of course is something was going to happen, just statistically speaking vaccinating so many people something will happen that can't easily be explained.

[sihnfahl]

And while I don't know the data (only what's being reported in the media) so I won't be commenting on whether or not the AstraZeneca vaccine causes blood cloths, there is one thing I would like to point out: it's not because something happened after you were vaccinated that it's caused by the vaccine.

Yeah, correlation does not imply causation.

Well was just reading what the papers said. But yes that, blood clots and the exact opposite at the same time? Funky.

They're not mutually exclusive, though. Especially if the platelets are getting bound up in clots, not circulating in the blood, and the body isn't producing a lot of new ones.

[Forum Explorer]

Anyone here feels they have a clear grasp of what's going on with the Astrazeneca vaccine ? They are suspending it here in France, and Germany and Italy, due to a possible side effect who caused at least a death. I feel this has ruined my only chance of convincing my Mom (a long time antivaxxer) that vaccines could help.

And, well, I feel like she does have a point.

From what I've heard, it's less than a death per million person vaccinated, and it's all from a particular batch of the vaccine. So they are checking it over to be doubly safe that there isn't something wrong with that vaccine (like it got stored improperly or something) but odds are that it's actually nothing and they are just playing it safe. (Some might argue too safe. After all, the time they spend investigating is time that the shots are being used).

[Sam113097]

I will say that the needle they used to apply my first Moderna dose yesterday was remarkably thin- it was the least painful injection I've ever had, which was a relief. I have had some pretty persistent soreness since then but no other noticeable side effect. My co-worker, on the other hand, got the same vaccine on the same day and has been feeling short-of-breath and has had a headache since she got vaccinated.

[Azuresun]

Long story short? There were 37 cases of thrombosis - 15 deep vein (clots that form in the legs) and 22 pulmonary (clots in the lungs). In 17 million injections.

While evidence is that the vaccine injection is not the reason for the clots, they're holding off until they can review the cases because of 'perceptional issues'.

Also worth noting that this is a political decision, not one supported by medical professionals.

Grist for the anti-vaxxer mill, of course, but what isn't?

In the US, we have VAERS - the vaccine Adverse event reporting system. It can be accessed via CDC's Wonder.

You can break it down by manufacturer, and yes, it has the COVID19 vaccine in it.

And the EU has adrreports.

Just be careful. Anti-vaxxers LOVE to cite this as evidence of the dangers of vaccines, forgetting that anyone can post anything on there.

This is a good explanation of how the system works.

[Tyndmyr]

From what I've heard, it's less than a death per million person vaccinated, and it's all from a particular batch of the vaccine. So they are checking it over to be doubly safe that there isn't something wrong with that vaccine (like it got stored improperly or something) but odds are that it's actually nothing and they are just playing it safe. (Some might argue too safe. After all, the time they spend investigating is time that the shots are being used).

There's also a strong clustering of who is affected. All who died were in the 20-50 yr range, and all but one were women.

This strongly points at a factor like a bad interaction with birth control or something. It's probably not that the vaccine is bad overall, but possibly that a very specific set of rare conditions makes for a dangerous situation.

The death rate was substantially over the expected accident rate. IIRC, normal blood clot death rate for the number vaccinated was 1.4 people, and they had 7 die instead. That is statistically significant, though it still translates to a quite low risk on an individual basis.

Pulling pre-emptively until they know what it is can make sense, but honestly, if you're not in the demographic that's been affected, your personal risk is probably fine.

[Ibrinar]

It sadly already had far less trust than others in germany, because a) it initially wasn't approved for people over 65 at first (because of lacking data not problems iirc) and b) The lower percentage that was given.

So this probably doesn't help with that at all.

[Tyndmyr]

That is unfortunate, but hey, the erring on the side of caution should help folks feel confident in the other vaccines, I hope. Being willing to pull stuff for even fairly small problems indicates that the not pulled stuff is safer.

And honestly, it's probably safe enough for a large population even as is. I believe Poland is still using it, at least according to the last news I read on the topic.

[Osuniev]

They restarted vaccination with AstraZeneca in France, now.

[Osuniev]

Perhaps the two of you would feel more comfortable looking at the vaccine varieties to see which is safest. After all, quite a lot of people are getting them in a short amount of time. If one has a chance to be lethal, it'll show up quite quickly.

Oh, I'm definitely convinced that the risk of the vaccine is much smaller than the risk of the disease, even disounting the necessity of vaccines to get out of this cluster****. And I'll get my shot as soon as I can.

But my Mom has been an antivaxxer for decades, and as irrational as it might be, the fact that officials deemed the risk of the vaccine bad enough to suspend it conforted her into that belief.

When I said "I feel like she's got a point", I meant that from her point of view, having an official message "this vaccine might not be safe" from several governments is strong evidence for "vaccines = bad".
She's not scientifically literate enough to know what studies are flawed or not, and is (understanbly given how much fake news circulate) wary of expert opinion.

[Cygnia]

Got my 1st shot today (Pfizer). Hubby got his 1st yesterday (Moderna).

[Tyndmyr]

But my Mom has been an antivaxxer for decades, and as irrational as it might be, the fact that officials deemed the risk of the vaccine bad enough to suspend it conforted her into that belief.

Ah, entirely fair, I've got some family like that myself. That line between reasonable caution and overreactions isn't as apparent to someone who hasn't dug into that.

She may be somewhat more comfortable if you/other people she knows get it and have no reaction, though. Firsthand evidence can sometimes feel more real than statistics.

[sihnfahl]

She may be somewhat more comfortable if you/other people she knows get it and have no reaction, though. Firsthand evidence can sometimes feel more real than statistics.

That'll be very difficult, as most folks DO have a reaction to it. Like my temperature reaching 103; fever isn't unexpected in the second shot.

I suppose the qualifier is -significant- reaction.

Also, it looks like AZ finished a good bit of testing in the US; it shows 79% efficacy in prevention of symptomatic cases. Comparing it to the other vaccines might not be a good gauge, as the others also tracked asymptomatic cases, IIRC.

[sktarq]

the Oxford/AZ vaccine is interesting in that it is just weird study case.
Basically the first set of studies were basically all in areas with some of the worst variants emerging (UK, Brazil, & South Africa)
It seems to do better with a longer wait between doses and seems quite sensitive to dosing changes in general.
The more recent trial was set in France, SW South America, and the US

Though confidence in it is rock bottom in Europe which is probably not going to help matters in these times.

[sihnfahl]

Basically the first set of studies were basically all in areas with some of the worst variants emerging (UK, Brazil, & South Africa)

And now an independent Data Safety and Monitoring Board told the US National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases... uh, take a second look at the data, will you? They may have relied on outdated data, which puts in an incomplete view of the vaccine's efficacy.

[Dire Moose]

I had my first shot (Pfizer) over the weekend and will have the second shot on April 12.

[comicshorse]

And now an independent Data Safety and Monitoring Board told the US National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases... uh, take a second look at the data, will you? They may have relied on outdated data, which puts in an incomplete view of the vaccine's efficacy.

And so they have

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-56521166

Its dropped the efficacy rate from 79% to 76 % (or 80-85% for over 65's)