Odin's words in #1145

[unbeliever536]

Has anyone thought about the possibility that parts of Odin's more nonsensical-seeming dialog in strip 1145, meeting up with Thor, Durkon and Minrah, might be some kind of coded prediction or foreshadowing? I mean the following set of lines:

Spindles wind the string foreward, but not back.

Who's to say? Loops and twirls. It seems to have all worked out. It's a mango!

You know, hoops have no end, until suddenly they do.

Sure, you can boot off a floppy, but don't pull it out in the middle!

Mortal height is fun. My hands are hand-sized!

The dialog here feels coded in a weird way to me, especially the way Odin's response to Thor's question is interwoven with a couple of nonsense phrases. Specifically, this looks like some form of cipher that involves a lot of junk data - something related to an index into the sentence, or into individual words, or to the number of letters in a word, rather than a letter-changing cipher like Haley's speech in the second half of volume 2 and early volume 3. That would constrain the Giant's writing enough to perhaps suggest comical sentences like the line about floppy disks, but still allow coherence to poke through as when Odin answers Thor and even for that last-panel joke (though that also might just be a joke). If this is a code of some sort, I have no idea how to decode it, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't include any of Odin's dialog before the sentence about spindles and threads and fate and such, since that just seems like normal speech and doesn't have any mango nonsequitors or oracular storytelling metaphors.

Any thoughts? Was this discussed or shot down in the book 6 commentary and I'm just now noticing something that's been common knowledge for (checks front page) more than a year at this point?

[InvisibleBison]

I do recall seeing some speculation along this line back when 1145 was new. Some of the lines seem to have fairly clear meanings to me, others not so much. Here's my analysis:

"Spindles wind the string forward, but not back." : Something about the linear nature of time, perhaps? As in, he's going to trust Thor's description of past events because he can't go back and check himself? This one is fairly obscure.

"Who's to say? Loops and twirls. It seems to have all worked out. It's a mango!" : He's saying that predicting the future is hard, because it's not certain until it's happened, but Durkon's prophecy has ended well regardless.

"You know, hoops have no end, until suddenly they do." : This is a reference to how the appearance of the Dark One has suddenly provided a way to end the seemingly unending cycle of worlds.

"Sure, you can boot off a floppy, but don't pull it out in the middle!" : Another obscure one. It's related to his mental issues and recovery, but I'm not sure how. Perhaps he's saying that the process isn't something that can be bypassed?

"Mortal height is fun. My hands are hand-sized!" : No deep meaning here; he's just enjoying an unusual experience.

[Darth Paul]

Spindles wind the string foreward, but not back.

The Snarl was the end result of all the threads of creation tangling together as the gods created the world from their various color yarns, or quiddities, yes? Maybe this is a confession of their inability to do anything to affect the Snarl now.

Who's to say? Loops and twirls. It seems to have all worked out. It's a mango!

Nevertheless, he foresees a happy ending to the process; "loops and twirls" is exactly wht the Snarl has been portrayed as in the crayon drawing flashbacks, and if it has "all worked out", then we've come to a point where it will be neutralized. Or possibly even allied with?

You know, hoops have no end, until suddenly they do.

InvisibleBison interpreted this the same way I would. A new element suddenly provides a way out of the cycle of world creation/destruction.

Sure, you can boot off a floppy, but don't pull it out in the middle!

You have to be an old fella like me to get this, maybe. Most people don't even remember floppy disks.

If something is wrong with your computer's operating system that's preventing it from booting up, you can boot the system from an external floppy disk. But if you pull the disk out before it's done booting, that may mess up the process even worse than before.

So, something is amiss in the world that can't be fixed with the elements currently in the system. The Dark One and his new quiddity represent an external floppy disk that can reboot the system, but only if the process goes through to the finish- if it's interrupted, the chance is lost.

[ebarde]

He seems to talk a lot about swirls and untangling, so I think he was just describing the Snarl

[KorvinStarmast]

{deciphers}

Nice post, and there is another allusion to this in the cryptic godsmoot coomment by Odin:

I see worlds within worlds, yarn winding yarn. Odin, god of magic, votes NO.

[The Pilgrim]

So, something is amiss in the world that can't be fixed with the elements currently in the system. The Dark One and his new quiddity represent an external floppy disk that can reboot the system, but only if the process goes through to the finish- if it's interrupted, the chance is lost.

Not only lost. They can end up worse, with two or more Snarls. Just like if you removed the floppy during boot you could not only screw up things even more in the system, but even physically damage the floppy and even the hard drive.

[Taevyr]

Nice post, and there another allusion to this in the cryptic godsmoot coomment by Odin:

"Yarn winding yarn" might refer to the Snarl itself creating something with the quiddities it has/consists of, as far-fetched as that may be. Which could explain the world in the rift.

Guess I have a new slightly-reasonable crack theory

[Dion]

Short answer: I haven’t seen anyone do a serious stenographic analysis on Odin’s speech to identify if there is information cryptographically hidden in it, no.

As you can see, most people believe it’s “poetic” cryptography, where the meaning is hidden in metaphor and allusions, and not in mathematical algorithms.

I don’t have any information that would disprove “real” cryptography, though.

[KorvinStarmast]

I don’t have any information that would disprove “real” cryptography, though.

Cryptic does not mean cryptographic.

[Darth Paul]

"Yarn winding yarn" might refer to the Snarl itself creating something with the quiddities it has/consists of, as far-fetched as that may be. Which could explain the world in the rift.

Guess I have a new slightly-reasonable crack theory

That.... is amazingly good. (picks jaw up off floor)

Very nice, Taevyr. Thank you, you've sent me in a whole new direction.

What if the Snarl itself is a new god, creating worlds of its own to play with? Suppose it is lashing out, not because it wants to destroy, but because it's scared of being destroyed? And therefore the worlds it is protecting being left defenseless?

Am I way off base in thinking that somewhere in the story there was a remark to the effect that everything we think about the Snarl might be wrong? Either in the comic itself or in the Giant's commentary?

[InvisibleBison]

Am I way off base in thinking that somewhere in the story there was a remark to the effect that everything we think about the Snarl might be wrong? Either in the comic itself or in the Giant's commentary?

You're probably thinking of #945, where Roy doubts the existence of the Snarl but events proceed to prove him very wrong.

[hroþila]

Cryptic does not mean cryptographic.

And it shouldn't be confused with cryptid either.

[KorvinStarmast]

Am I way off base in thinking that somewhere in the story there was a remark to the effect that everything we think about the Snarl might be wrong? Either in the comic itself or in the Giant's commentary?What if the Snarl itself is a new god, creating worlds of its own to play with? Suppose it is lashing out, not because it wants to destroy, but because it's scared of being destroyed? And therefore the worlds it is protecting being left defenseless?"

In Strip 0900, among others, we get "Maybe someone's been yanking everyone's chain" and in the last strip of book 4, V opines that maybe we don't understand what's going on after Blackwing describes what they saw in the rift, and there is another brief discussion between Roy and V after they get away from Tarquin about "we really don't know what's going on"

So yeah, might be that the Snarl, who is made out of the quiddity of all four quiddities that created the initial world, has the capacity over time to create stuff while being stuck in a prison - the created OoTS world is its prison, crafted by the deities who remain - bored out of its mind with out much else to do.

"I'll show 'em, I'll make a nice world ... "

Why not?

[unbeliever536]

That.... is amazingly good. (picks jaw up off floor)

Very nice, Taevyr. Thank you, you've sent me in a whole new direction.

What if the Snarl itself is a new god, creating worlds of its own to play with? Suppose it is lashing out, not because it wants to destroy, but because it's scared of being destroyed? And therefore the worlds it is protecting being left defenseless?

Am I way off base in thinking that somewhere in the story there was a remark to the effect that everything we think about the Snarl might be wrong? Either in the comic itself or in the Giant's commentary?

No, something in that vein is definitely heavily implied, despite InvisibleBison's cite. You've got V's line from the end of DSP, after hearing about the world in the rift, plus the fact that (at least as far as we can tell from the end of the Durkon/Thor sequence) the gods don't seem to be aware of said world, much less what's in/on it.

[WanderingMist]

No, something in that vein is definitely heavily implied, despite InvisibleBison's cite. You've got V's line from the end of DSP, after hearing about the world in the rift, plus the fact that (at least as far as we can tell from the end of the Durkon/Thor sequence) the gods don't seem to be aware of said world, much less what's in/on it.

The IFCC aren't aware either, as they didn't know why Blackwing was staring.

[unbeliever536]

The IFCC aren't aware either, as they didn't know why Blackwing was staring.

Good point. Overall, it looks like none of the major players except a few in the Order and maybe Serini are aware that there's anything other than divine rage and frustration hiding behind the rifts.

[Metastachydium]

Good point. Overall, it looks like none of the major players except a few in the Order and maybe Serini are aware that there's anything other than divine rage and frustration hiding behind the rifts.

Why would Serini be aware? She was part of a group that dedicated itself to closing the Rifts, whatever it takes. It doesn't look like they considered the Snarl anything other than destruction incarnate.

[elros]

It is clear that the god's do not understand the Snarl, that they think is just chaos.
But I don't think the Snarl created the planet, either. I think that the "Eastern Pantheon" may be the ones at work.
I also think one of two Eastern Pantheon characters next to Zeus will be the character that has only appeared in one strip so far.

[Schroeswald]

The IFCC aren't aware either, as they didn't know why Blackwing was staring.

The IFCC weren’t aware of the world in the rift at that time but they’ve been watching V since then, they would’ve heard Blackwing tell V, V and Blackwing talk about it, and V tell Roy about it, they definitely know about it now.

[Dion]

The IFCC weren’t aware of the world in the rift at that time but they’ve been watching V since then, they would’ve heard Blackwing tell V, V and Blackwing talk about it, and V tell Roy about it, they definitely know about it now.

Yes, maybe. Or maybe not.

As an aside, I recently re-read Neil Gaiman’s Season of Mists, and one of the he does remarkably well is show us how little information the gods often have, and how much of their power depends on secrets and deception.

Of course, OotS is not Sandman. Gaiman used entire books to detail his imaginary nuances of interactions between godlike beings. The Giant is focused instead on mortals, and has spared perhaps a few dozen panels for the gods and outsiders.

The point being that we have almost no idea what the powers of the IFCC are, or what they know, or how they know it. And since the work isn’t about gods and outsiders, it probably doesn’t matter much to the story either way.

But in my personal headcannon, the gods and other powerful outsiders spend most of their time and effort trying to hide things from other gods and outsiders, and the rest of their time trying to discover what’s hidden from them. Assumptions of near omniscience is incompatible with my headcannon.

[CriticalFailure]

Generally agree with the gist of the comments... I thought this was generally accepted? Anyways, some additions...

> Spindles wind the string foreward, but not back.

iirc Odin says this about themself? I think it means he has clear insight into the future via prophecy but that his understanding of the past is messed up due up the non magic user induced mental problems. They know they can prophesize the future but they acknowledge they don’t remember the past including giving prophecies.

> Who's to say? Loops and twirls. It seems to have all worked out. It's a mango!

Sounds like it is saying that part of the nature of prophecy is that the giving prophecy creates alters and changes things - prophecy isn’t a linear process of seeing the future but rather a more nuanced insight to the future that interacts with the events at hand. It’s a mango likely a variant of it’s a peach/it’s peachy.

> You know, hoops have no end, until suddenly they do.

Agree this is saying that an end to the infinite trap snarl/snarl destroys everything loop has appeared.

> Sure, you can boot off a floppy, but don't pull it out in the middle!

Agree this is a reference saying that they can “reboot” the universe to remove the snarl errors but that pulling the plug in the middle will mess things up much worse. This could be only a reference to big purple or it could also be referencing the changes in the snark.

> Mortal height is fun. My hands are hand-sized!

joke

> yarn weaving yarn

Agree this is a reference to the snarl changing and some sort of spontaneous creative process occurring in the rift, due to the snarl or otherwise. I suspect that Belkar’scomment about scruffy never getting bored of playing with yarn may foreshadow that after the chaotic impetus of the snarl may had finally gotten bored of chaos and decided to experiment. My guess is that the final resolution must involve the world in the rifts and it with involve both the purple quiddity and all four previous prior ones, I think that green will be accessible from the world in the rift. Just a wild speculation though.

[KorvinStarmast]

> yarn weaving yarn

Agree this is a reference to the snarl changing and some sort of spontaneous creative process occurring in the rift, due to the snarl or otherwise. I suspect that Belkar’scomment about scruffy never getting bored of playing with yarn may foreshadow that after the chaotic impetus of the snarl may had finally gotten bored of chaos and decided to experiment. My guess is that the final resolution must involve the world in the rifts and it with involve both the purple quiddity and all four previous prior ones, I think that green will be accessible from the world in the rift. Just a wild speculation though.

That would indicate to me that snarl didn't just slay the Green Pantheon, but 'absorbed them into its essence, which might then imply that any and all worlds subsequently destroyed - or maybe only the souls within them - are also absorbed into the Snarl. What it does with all of that stuff - a glutton who puts the MiTD to shame - I guess involves the world in the rift.

[unbeliever536]

Why would Serini be aware? She was part of a group that dedicated itself to closing the Rifts, whatever it takes. It doesn't look like they considered the Snarl anything other than destruction incarnate.

No particular reason; I just wanted to acknowledge that we don't have evidence that she isn't aware. And of course, something broke the Order of the Scribble; this knowledge seems like a reasonable candidate.

[Dion]

I just wanted to acknowledge that we don't have evidence that she isn't aware.

This is probably the most important point. It’s safe to assume that everyone has exactly the right amount if information they’ll need to move the story forward, unless it’s been shown they don’t.

[PontificatusRex]

The bit about "don't boot a floppy", plus other hints like Thor complaining about the comic book making him blonde and the whole thing about Odin being crazy because Northerners didn't believe in magic make me strongly inclined to believe that the last world was our world.