The Watch

[Palanan]

I caught the first part of this when it aired last weekend, and at first words just failed me.

Spoiler

Show

Even now, it’s hard to know where to begin with this. I’ve enjoyed the TV-movie adaptations of other Discworld novels, but this…gah.

For some inexplicable reason, probably budget, they chose to set the story not in a traditional period version of Ankh-Morpork, but a bizarrely modern one that looked as if it was shot on location in the seediest concrete tenements they felt safe in visiting. Streets with electrical wires and masses of spray-paint graffiti, modern clubs with thumping music, plastic laundry baskets and countless other industrialized tells, including a phone-like screen for scrolling through images.

I can’t fathom why they would have done this, and it wasn’t simply a consequence of filming in cheap locations; they leaned hard into the modern grunge, so much it was difficult to tell what some locations were even supposed to be. Maybe they were going for modern stylish noir, or…something; but it didn’t work.

As for the characters…Vimes was gawdawful, nothing but an absurdly exaggerated series of gapes and squints, so overdone it wasn’t remotely humorous. The troll sergeant looked like someone’s junior high art project, and the other characters were barely characters at all.

I managed to force myself through part of it, but it was such a ridiculous muddle I couldn’t bring myself to care. There was something about a book and a dragon, but any hint of story was drowned by the overdone visuals and wretchedly distorted characters.

So if anyone was wondering if it could possibly be as bad as it looked from the previews…trust me when I say it’s worse. Vastly, impossibly worse.

[The Glyphstone]

Spoiler

Show

Did Anna Chancellor at least pull off a decent Vetinari? That was the only potential hope of quality I had left for this disaster, since frankly Vetinari's gender is the least essential element of the character.

[Palanan]

Spoiler

Show

No.

I didn't even recognize that she was supposed to be Vetinari, especially since a few scenes earlier they showed a street poster of Vetinari looking very much like Machiavelli, harshly and unmistakably male.

So at her first appearance, I couldn't immediately work out that she was Vetinari, and there was no force, presence or menace to her version of the character. Like several other actors, in some way she seemed diminished by the ridiculous costumes, as if she realized that she looked ridiculous and everyone else looked ridiculous.

"Disaster" is as good a term as any. I can't imagine what they were thinking.

[Dire_Flumph]

I watched the first episode, and it wasn't very good at all. I'd give it a few more episodes before going with "disaster", but it doesn't inspire confidence.

Spoiler: Quick thoughts on the first episode

Show

The narrative and worldbuilding are both a mess, they have trouble getting exposition across, and they can't seem to decide on a tone, or at least they can't seem to mesh the lighter source material they're adapting with the more serious tone they seem to be going for. The framing device with Death is headscratching and pointless so far except as a way to shoehorn the character in. Potentially funny ideas (like the goblins being more nuanced and philosophical than they appear) are just botched in execution.

This isn't really an adaption of the books, it doesn't even really capture (or try to be going for) the spirit of the books, and anyone who's going to be upset at the wide array of changes to the setting and characters should do themselves a favor and keep away. There are a few potential bright spots and I'll likely give it a couple more episodes to see if what they're trying to do here comes together a bit better, but I think in the end this will probably fall on the sadly large pile of disappointing attempts to bring Sir Terry's work to life.

I think one of the biggest problems with putting any thoughts together on this show so far is that it's hard to separate things I didn't like that they changed from the books with actual narrative problems the show brings on its own.

Spoiler

Show

Did Anna Chancellor at least pull off a decent Vetinari? That was the only potential hope of quality I had left for this disaster, since frankly Vetinari's gender is the least essential element of the character.

Spoiler: Vetinari

Show

Vetinari is in all of one scene in the first episode and it was pretty pointless, giving Chancellor nothing to work with. It wasn't really needed even as exposition.

[Corvus]

They used the infamous words 'inspired by' when describing it. That doesn't instil any confidence at all.

Not a single character matches anything as describe in the books. I think the biggest travesty is Sybil. It is like they read the description about her and then reversed every single aspect.

Lets just say that Terry's daughter Rhiannon is not exactly happy with the travesty that transpired.

[Anonymouswizard]

Well this is a shame, both Hogfather and Going Postal were enjoyable adaptions that stuck to the source material (I've heard that The Colour of Magic adaptation is worse, and haven't dug up the cartoons yet).

From what I've heard though they've just got Ankh-Morpork completely wrong. My mental image has always been this patchwork of London from about 1500-1800, with it being bright and colourful under the dirt nobody's bothered to wash off for at least a month. Really disappointed with that.

[Eldan]

I mean, they aren't trying to be Pratchett's Ankh-Morpork, clearly. They deciced Punk is popular and they want to be that.

Honestly, I would be fine with a lot of changes. Female Vetinari? Go right ahead. Modern Ankh-Morpork? Can work. Angua's been in the watch longer than Carrot? Why the heck not, doesn't really matter.

But then they make changes that feel like actively working against what the character is. "How about we take this character, Lady Sybil, who is middle aged and nice and make her a badass vigilante? People like sexy badass vigilante women, it's going to be feminist!" Except her story is literally about how she's still badass despite not conforming to those basic expectations of what a badass woman is like. And her love story is about two mature, not conventionally attractive people slowly and quietly falling in love mostly because they appreciate each other's characters, not looks.

And how the heck do you screw up Cheerie like that. So, we have a character who is laid out as a comment on gender norms and expectations. How about we make her a different character who is a comment on different gender norms and expectations, but worse?

Urgh.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Well this is a shame, both Hogfather and Going Postal were enjoyable adaptions that stuck to the source material (I've heard that The Colour of Magic adaptation is worse, and haven't dug up the cartoons yet).

The Colour of Magic and the two animations (Soul Music and Equal Rites) were OK. They didn't stick exactly to the original Diskworld material all the way, but they don't stray any more than Hogfather and Going Postal. Overall I would term them "good enough" - they were fun to watch, and engaging enough that I didn't start obsessing on how much they deviated from source.

The two animations are much closer to the originals - Cosgrove Hall (makers of the original Danger Mouse, by the way) did an excelent job, all told.

[SuperPanda]

I saw the first two episodes and I came away with it more hurting my head rather than liking it or hating it.

The original pitch I'd seen for this show years and years and years ago was that it was going to be a group of new original characters running around in a post-book discworld with nods to the original books but without any direct references. I was legitimately excited to see what that looked like.

Development hell must have been literal for this project because - ooh boy is that not what we got.


Spoilers to be polite - but I'm not really spoiling anything, if you've read the books you'll probably want to read this in advance because it will probably save you a lot of headaches.

Spoiler: What the show felt like as best I can word it

Show

So the best way I can describe this is that it feels like one of the writers did a deep dive into a set of fan wiki's about the original books and pulled out all the parts they liked, then the rest of the writing staff threw those ideas into a blender along with their own ideas.

There were nods to all the discworld watch books in the first two parter. The Noble dragon story line - but wrong. Teases of Angua and Carrot's story from Man at arms - but wrong. The thing in the dark that spoke to Vimes from Thudd, but wrong. Carcer Dunn and the lightning storm on the Library roof - but wrong. Admitedly I haven't seen any Jingo references yet but from the trailer I know they are comming.

I mean, they keep the "I'm just tall for a dwarf" joke along with the reactions it gets for Carrot but have Cheerie be the same height as him and be an actual dwarf.

Everyone is playing one note of their original character to cartoonish exaggeration. Detritus is big and loyal, that is his whole character. Sybil has a small dragon. Angua is moody and thinks of herself as a monster. Cheerie is present and dressed "differently than you would expect." Vimes is drunk. Carrot is devoted to trying to be a watchman.

Honestly, of all of the characters they screwed up Carrot of all of them pissed me off the most. This is equal parts because I genuinely loved Carrot in the first few books he is in and because his original character would have tonally fit so well with all the other ones they'd messed up. Back in Guards, Guards Carrot was an idealistic and charismatic kid who dreamed of being a hero and thought that was what the Watch was. Here he's a moody, angsty, man who is already an experienced cop that is determined to do his job despite the restrictions on him. With how grungy and moody they made everyone else - that optimistic charisma for Carrot would have worked so well. The way book Carrot would go around learning everyone's name, smiling, and genuinely commanding the respect and admiration of others while being fiercely loyal to his team and to Captain Vimes - to the point where it made the rest of them want to do their job... it would have worked.

As it stands he's just a stubborn newbie that half the city wants to execute and that his team members don't really have any reason to want to keep around.

The version of Carrot we got would have worked better if he was playing off of Colon and Nobbs (not present in the show) - because the moody focus on doing his work could bounce off of the incompetent laziness of the other two. Instead we've got the extremely talented Cheerie, the forever moody Angua, the eternally drunk pirate known as Sam Vimes.


The show is a jumbled mess that would be decidedly "meh" on its own and not worth commenting on - but instead it insists of referencing Sir. Terry's work constantly with enough nods and winks as if the writers are trying to say "you could have had a real adaptation, but we just wanted to piss you off." If you didn't read the books you'll see a show that has potential to find its footing and go from "meh" to okay. If you read the book you'll find yourself constantly fighting the "but in the books" impulse. All of the actors, costumes, sets look "wrong." None of them give the impression that they couldn't work - it feels more like the show runners are actively trying to make sure they don't work together. The Actor playing Sam looks nothing like Vimes does in my head - the way he is written and performed is absurdly wrong - and yet there are moments where the actor gives the distinct impression that he'd be able to pull of the real character but was denied the chance.

[Anonymouswizard]

But then they make changes that feel like actively working against what the character is. "How about we take this character, Lady Sybil, who is middle aged and nice and make her a badass vigilante? People like sexy badass vigilante women, it's going to be feminist!"

Wait, what?

Maybe I need to reread Guards, Guards, because I distinctly remember Lady Sybil being a plump woman in her thirties or so with charisma, a sharp mind, money sense, and a passion for swamp dragons. One who's response to her home being attacked was to arm herself with a swamp dragon (although I believe that's not until Thud).

That's the character I want to see, a woman in a fireproof suit responding to an emergency with more calm than her chief of police usband.

Also I'm not sure if her being large is actually fromthe books, or just my imagination.

The Colour of Magic and the two animations (Soul Music and Equal Rites) were OK. They didn't stick exactly to the original Diskworld material all the way, but they don't stray any more than Hogfather and Going Postal. Overall I would term them "good enough" - they were fun to watch, and engaging enough that I didn't start obsessing on how much they deviated from source.

The two animations are much closer to the originals - Cosgrove Hall (makers of the original Danger Mouse, by the way) did an excelent job, all told.

Yeah, the Sky adaptations are great because they get the spirit of the books down and have the setting look right. And I do really need to watch those three.

[SuperPanda]

Wait, what?

Maybe I need to reread Guards, Guards, because I distinctly remember Lady Sybil being a plump woman in her thirties or so with charisma, a sharp mind, money sense, and a passion for swamp dragons. One who's response to her home being attacked was to arm herself with a swamp dragon (although I believe that's not until Thud).

That's the character I want to see, a woman in a fireproof suit responding to an emergency with more calm than her chief of police husband.

Also I'm not sure if her being large is actually from the books, or just my imagination.

She is definitely described as a larger set person in the books. I don't remember if she had that level of practicality in the first book - but this "adaptation" puts all the books in a blender and pulls out the pieces of each character that it likes the best from the resulting slurry - so that might be why they start her off as a more "action-hero" at the start here.

She certainly has more "moxy" than Vimes does at the start, but she most certainly does not have a level head.

I remember Book Sybil being a genuinely kind soul who was passionate about her causes and was able to recognize the nobility deep inside the crushed soul of Sam Vimes - overtime she grew the badassery that grew out of that core person and the practicality she'd always possessed from surviving as a member of the nobility in a world with legal assassination.

This version of her has Vimes' anger at the guild system and desire to see real police work happen again - a mysterious tragic backstory which seems to be the reason her kind nature hasn't shown itself - and what almost feels like a bloodlust for vigilante work. She is unrecognizable as her book counterpart. Vimes at least is a drunk, broken man (as he started) - though that is where the similarities end. Carrot is at least an idealist with red hair and an adopted dward (though that is where the similarities end, Angua is at least a blond werewolf who doesn't want to hurt innocent people (you get the idea...)

Sybil is, still rich, still female, and owns one small dragon (though the dragon is the size of a mouse instead of the size of a dog).

[Anonymouswizard]

I'm more used to late-book Sybil because I've read those books more recently

Honestly, if I was adapting the Watch books I'd focus Episode one almost entirely on a young idealistic Carrot as he arrives in Ankh-Morpork to join the Watch, and then when the audience has got the basic idea switch to focusing on Sam and Sybil and their character growth for the rest of the series. Begin the series with the broken Vimes and jumpy Sibyl, and then dedicate the entire series to their relationship and how that improves both them and the city.

Because darn it, the climatic scenes in both Guards, Guards and Thud don't work if Vimes is still the broken drunkard he is at the beginning of theseries. Yes, he's still a drunkard at the end of the first book, but thanks to both Carrot and Sybil he has begun to rebuild his beliefs. That's the moments I want to see.

The series isn't available over here yet, but I looked up some of the previews, and, uh...

Spoiler

Show

Is that meant to be the man who fights through a force of heavily armed dwarfs and then stops because he won't kill defenceless old men, despite being posessed by an ancient demon thing of vengeance? Because that to me is Sam's defining moment, and I can't see this version of the character doing that.

[SuperPanda]

Spoiler

Show

Is that meant to be the man who fights through a force of heavily armed dwarfs and then stops because he won't kill defenceless old men, despite being posessed by an ancient demon thing of vengeance? Because that to me is Sam's defining moment, and I can't see this version of the character doing that.

Yes, this is suppose to be him, but now he thinks he's a pirate.

Vimes in Guards Guards was a person who had long ago wasted away into his booze - so I don't have as much of a problem with him not looking like he's capable of his later book feats yet - that is suppose to be the man who will eventually become that as he gives up booze, reclaims his ideals - and step by step regains his physical and emotional health.

I think the actor could pull it off if he was given anything to work that suggested that sort of man was somewhere inside (he isn't).

This is an "adaptation" of the characters and storylines of the source material in the same was Sucide Squad, The Last Airbender, and Dragonball Evolution were.

[Misery Esquire]

Wait, what?

Maybe I need to reread Guards, Guards, because I distinctly remember Lady Sybil being a plump woman in her thirties or so with charisma, a sharp mind, money sense, and a passion for swamp dragons. One who's response to her home being attacked was to arm herself with a swamp dragon (although I believe that's not until Thud).

That's the character I want to see, a woman in a fireproof suit responding to an emergency with more calm than her chief of police husband.

Also I'm not sure if her being large is actually from the books, or just my imagination.

She's past, er, usual childbirth years by the time of Night Watch; it's hard to tell how many years are going by as the novels go on, but I always figured it was middling 30s at the start. Not so much on the money sense as "being hugely rich allows you not to spend money (except on dozens of dragons)", Vimes' Boots Theory* and such. She wants to be a wifely wife of wifing, but comes from a lineage of Shout Loudly, Kill Problems. (Attempts to charge and slaughter the palace guards with a claymore in Guards, Guards.) And can't cook right. But that's OK, because Vimes can't eat right.

And it is from the books that she's large - there's even jokes comparing Errol (maybe 20lbs, after eating a kettle)/Noble Dragon (several tons) to Vimes/Sybil. Though, you know, kind of impolite to say, eh?


*Very different from Mat's Boots Theory.

[Rodin]

She's past, er, usual childbirth years by the time of Night Watch; it's hard to tell how many years are going by as the novels go on, but I always figured it was middling 30s at the start. Not so much on the money sense as "being hugely rich allows you not to spend money (except on dozens of dragons)", Vimes' Boots Theory* and such. She wants to be a wifely wife of wifing, but comes from a lineage of Shout Loudly, Kill Problems. (Attempts to charge and slaughter the palace guards with a claymore in Guards, Guards.) And can't cook right. But that's OK, because Vimes can't eat right.

And it is from the books that she's large - there's even jokes comparing Errol (maybe 20lbs, after eating a kettle)/Noble Dragon (several tons) to Vimes/Sybil. Though, you know, kind of impolite to say, eh?


*Very different from Mat's Boots Theory.

Vimes is over forty at the start of Men-At-Arms, and I always read it to be mid-to-late 40s rather than early 40s. He was expected to retire when he got married and it was only the massive expansion of the Watch that prevented it. Sybil reads as around the same age and is probably early 50s by Night Watch, hence the concerns about the childbirth.

I've always liked Sybil as a contrast to Angua/Cheery. She's a very old-school traditional type and that isn't shown as a bad thing. She is who she is and the goodness of her heart matters more than her upbringing. Anyone that underestimates her because she's a "wifely wife" is going to get their figgin toasted by a dragon.

[Spacewolf]

Vimes is over forty at the start of Men-At-Arms, and I always read it to be mid-to-late 40s rather than early 40s. He was expected to retire when he got married and it was only the massive expansion of the Watch that prevented it. Sybil reads as around the same age and is probably early 50s by Night Watch, hence the concerns about the childbirth.

I've always liked Sybil as a contrast to Angua/Cheery. She's a very old-school traditional type and that isn't shown as a bad thing. She is who she is and the goodness of her heart matters more than her upbringing. Anyone that underestimates her because she's a "wifely wife" is going to get their figgin toasted by a dragon.

I don't think he was expected to retire due to his age though, it was just because he was a gentlemen and gentlemen certainly don't spend their nights standing in the rain looking out for criminals.

[Sapphire Guard]

I wonder who the target market for this is?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard
I wonder who the target market for this is?

I can’t fathom this myself. Anyone not knowing the books will probably be baffled and thrown by the barely comprehensible story, not to mention the ridiculous visuals. Anyone who does know the books is more than likely to be turned off by the slapdash nature of the “adaptation.”

I’m not sure who else this is meant to appeal to. It’s not serious, not funny, and acts like it’s far cooler than it really is.

[Wraith]

Discworld was the first fandom that I ever got seriously into - I own all the books, including some of the obscure short-stories and things, and I thought that all of the Sky TV adaptations were great - so I have to say that reading this thread is pretty heart-breaking. As much as I miss Terry Pratchett and the Disc, I think it very unlikely that I'm going to watch this series just to get hurt again. Maybe I'll catch the highlights on YouTube and change my mind, but.... yeah.

Spoiler

Show

Did Anna Chancellor at least pull off a decent Vetinari? That was the only potential hope of quality I had left for this disaster, since frankly Vetinari's gender is the least essential element of the character.

Spoiler

Show

Someone on Twitter made a very persuasive argument to me that, despite Anna Chancellor potentially being a highlight of the series, Vetinari being portrayed by a woman is a terrible idea, particularly for the themes that tend to appear in the Watch.

The Watch novels have always had significant stories about strong women and feminism. Angua is mistaken for being 'just a pretty face' and occasionally the joke is teased that she "was only allowed into the Watch because she's a w-" (the joke being that the speaker was going to say 'werewolf' but is cut off, and it retains both the mystery and the joke). Cheery is an openly female Dwarf, which is scandalous because all she's asking is to be treated in the same way as men - to be left alone to do what she wants.

There's also subplots about the inherent Power of being a well-connected wife to a Duke, who happens to know a lot of other Wives Of Powerful Men and essentially being the power behind the government (Sybil), and in one book where Vetinari is put on trial, the key people who save him from prosecution are the Heads of the Seamstresses' and Beggars' Guilds - both women, in positions of overlooked power from supposedly minor organisations. All these women are making themselves known and using their influence in different ways, but all of them are significant and consistently surprise the men who didn't realise just how much power there was in being a woman and owning it.

But by making Vetinari female, that all gets diluted. There is no 'glass ceiling' to rail against - the most politically powerful person in the world is a woman, and she's notoriously excellent at it. Therefore a lot of conflict is potentially averted - Angua is the first woman in the Watch? So what? Vetinari has been in power for years, women in places of power is unremarkable now. Cheery is openly feminine? So what? Feminine people literally run the world.

It really feels like the TV show has missed the points that Pratchett was making about women and feminism - not just that they're oppressed and are fighting for better opportunities in mainstream roles, but as well they already have their own form of power and that its subtle, but just as effective as the 'normal' kind.
But no - Sybil gets to be Batman, because as we all know that Bruce Wayne never achieved anything by building hospitals, or providing for charities, or by shaking hands with the janitor and making sure he gets a scholarship into a decent College...

Vimes is over forty at the start of Men-At-Arms, and I always read it to be mid-to-late 40s rather than early 40s. He was expected to retire when he got married and it was only the massive expansion of the Watch that prevented it. Sybil reads as around the same age and is probably early 50s by Night Watch, hence the concerns about the childbirth.

Spoiler

Show

Young Sam was 17 in Night Watch, and the events of that book happened 30 years ago, from the perspective of Sir Vimes. That makes him between 40 and 45 when we first meet him in Guards! Guards! (or thereabouts) and Young Sybil is 1 year younger than him as she's 16 when we see her also in Night Watch.

[factotum]

Isn't this the series where Rhianna Pratchett is on record as saying it shares "no DNA" with her father's work? And where the main writer actually forgot to mention Terry Pratchett in the Instagram post where he thanked everyone for wrapping up production? Is there actually anybody out there (apart from possibly said main writer) who thought this was ever going to be good?

[GloatingSwine]

Yep.

It's back to the old school of film and TV adaptation where the things that made the popular thing popular are completely ignored by people who clearly "know better".

[The Glyphstone]

Spoiler

Show

Someone on Twitter made a very persuasive argument to me that, despite Anna Chancellor potentially being a highlight of the series, Vetinari being portrayed by a woman is a terrible idea, particularly for the themes that tend to appear in the Watch.

The Watch novels have always had significant stories about strong women and feminism. Angua is mistaken for being 'just a pretty face' and occasionally the joke is teased that she "was only allowed into the Watch because she's a w-" (the joke being that the speaker was going to say 'werewolf' but is cut off, and it retains both the mystery and the joke). Cheery is an openly female Dwarf, which is scandalous because all she's asking is to be treated in the same way as men - to be left alone to do what she wants.

There's also subplots about the inherent Power of being a well-connected wife to a Duke, who happens to know a lot of other Wives Of Powerful Men and essentially being the power behind the government (Sybil), and in one book where Vetinari is put on trial, the key people who save him from prosecution are the Heads of the Seamstresses' and Beggars' Guilds - both women, in positions of overlooked power from supposedly minor organisations. All these women are making themselves known and using their influence in different ways, but all of them are significant and consistently surprise the men who didn't realise just how much power there was in being a woman and owning it.

But by making Vetinari female, that all gets diluted. There is no 'glass ceiling' to rail against - the most politically powerful person in the world is a woman, and she's notoriously excellent at it. Therefore a lot of conflict is potentially averted - Angua is the first woman in the Watch? So what? Vetinari has been in power for years, women in places of power is unremarkable now. Cheery is openly feminine? So what? Feminine people literally run the world.

It really feels like the TV show has missed the points that Pratchett was making about women and feminism - not just that they're oppressed and are fighting for better opportunities in mainstream roles, but as well they already have their own form of power and that its subtle, but just as effective as the 'normal' kind.
But no - Sybil gets to be Batman, because as we all know that Bruce Wayne never achieved anything by building hospitals, or providing for charities, or by shaking hands with the janitor and making sure he gets a scholarship into a decent College...

Spoiler

Show

That is actually a very good argument, and if this was anything approaching a faithful adaptation of the Watch I'd agree. But since they'd burnt everything else about it to the ground, the least I was hoping for was a good portrayal of a sinister hyper-competent tyrant with a withering sense of sarcasm. Vetinari in the context of the setting is better male, Vetinari taken in isolation would be gender-independent.

[SuperPanda]

Spoiler

Show

That is actually a very good argument, and if this was anything approaching a faithful adaptation of the Watch I'd agree. But since they'd burnt everything else about it to the ground, the least I was hoping for was a good portrayal of a sinister hyper-competent tyrant with a withering sense of sarcasm. Vetinari in the context of the setting is better male, Vetinari taken in isolation would be gender-independent.

Spoiler: Show Vetenari

Show

She barely has any screen time and doesn't get much to work with. In one appearance she is complaining about Vimes bringing Detritus to the palace grounds because his weight damages the stonework. She assigns Vimes to hunt for a missing library book and comments on plot events - but functionally she's just an exposition dump and quest giver.

In the second scene she's in she seems to give a gentle push to Vimes towards being a better person - but it comes off more as "motherly" than manipulative. There is a bit of her handling the wizards and guild leaders - but that comes off more as them being absolute children while she's not. She's fine, so far, but doesn't stand out the way Sir Charles Dance did in going postal.

[Friv]

Spoiler

Show

But by making Vetinari female, that all gets diluted. There is no 'glass ceiling' to rail against - the most politically powerful person in the world is a woman, and she's notoriously excellent at it. Therefore a lot of conflict is potentially averted - Angua is the first woman in the Watch? So what? Vetinari has been in power for years, women in places of power is unremarkable now. Cheery is openly feminine? So what? Feminine people literally run the world.

Continuing Vetinari spoilers...

Spoiler

Show

I think there is very much room for a better writer to have a woman be the Patrician in the context of Discworld. Queen Elizabeth I was a terrifyingly competent and powerful politician and reigning monarch, but that didn't make England in the 1500s less sexist overall. The Patrician having to be twice as ruthless while also letting her council of dumbasses have a bit of leeway could help with the weirdness that is the ways that early Ankh-Morpork is a rolling disaster barely held together by a competent dictator.

This show is not the show that is going to do that, though.

[Sapphire Guard]

Y'know, I always thought Vimes was much older than that. Since he was due to retire in MAA, I thought he was in his sixties or seventies, since Vimes being Vimes, he'd retire only when you prise his fingers off the badge one by one and throw it into a volcano. But the Night Watch timeline checks out.

[Silfir]

I thought the expectation that Vimes would retire from the force was less about his age and more about his marriage to Sybil Ramkin having elevated him to the nobility, and his new responsibilities taking precedence over something as base and vulgar as police work.

Sybil is probably 5-10 years younger and in her late thirties at most in Guards, Guards. Way into unwanted spinster territory, but still plausible for having at least one child without the benefit of modern day reproductive medicine.

[GloatingSwine]

Continuing Vetinari spoilers...

Spoiler

Show

I think there is very much room for a better writer to have a woman be the Patrician in the context of Discworld.

Spoiler

Show

Nah. Granny Weatherwax wouldn't put up with it...

Or, to be more prosaic, in the wider context of Discworld powerful and extremely competent women were far from rare.

[Divayth Fyr]

Sybil is probably 5-10 years younger and in her late thirties at most in Guards, Guards. Way into unwanted spinster territory, but still plausible for having at least one child without the benefit of modern day reproductive medicine.

As was mentioned in one of the spoilers, she was a teenager 30 years before the modern part of Night Watch (and specifically described as looking sixteen). Making around 46 the closest we have for her age during Night Watch, and IIRC, Guards, Guards is set about 5 years prior (I believe Vimes is mentioned as having served for 25 years at that point).

[Antediluvian]

I also felt pretty let down.

[Darth Paul]

*sigh*

Guess I'll watch the Dirk Gently adaptations again, then. Which, although "based upon" rather than straight adaptations, and starring a chap who looks rather more like Matt Smith as the Doctor than the podgy and "hideously unattractive" Dirk described in Douglas Adams' novels, at least caught the flavor of the whole thing in what I thought was an admirably holistic way.

I realize others may not agree, but it certainly sounds better than this hodgepodge.