The Watch

[Sapphire Guard]

Did anyone watch any further?

[Dire_Flumph]

I did. Started episode six last night, but had to get to bed before I could finish it.

Honestly, it's not bad taken on its own. A lot of the muddle I didn't like in the first episode got more ordered, Richard Dormer thankfully settled down the horrific number of tics Vimes was originally saddled with and I got a better feel of what the show was going for. By episodes 3-4 I was enjoying it a lot more.

It's interesting. It is not an adaption really, but it's not entirely it's own thing. The writer for this is obviously familiar with the source material, but used it as a starting point to explore it in different ways.

It's not great either, don't get me wrong. The comedy is still very hit and miss, I can't say every step they've taken sits well with me, and even though I'm only about halfway through episode six I really don't care for what they've done with the Summoning Dark.

Being fair, I like several of the characters quite a bit, even if they don't jibe with the book versions. Some of the material is pretty funny. I like the fact that we are taking a lot of things about Discworld and watching them through someone else's interpretation. It's the sort of thing that might have gone down better if this had been adapted more in the past. But as this is the first visual adaption of the Night Watch books (barring cameos in Hogfather and Going Postal), I get that people feel cheated of a more straightforward adaption.

Do I recommend it? No, not really. For folks who aren't fans of the material this probably isn't the best introduction unless something particular about the previews interested you. For fans, well, only if you can completely let go what you know of the characters from the books and take this on its own merits. While I don't think it's as bad as the reactions to the first episode would suggest, it's not good enough to overcome the fact that many will see this as trashing the source material.

[pendell]

I did. Started episode six last night, but had to get to bed before I could finish it.

Honestly, it's not bad taken on its own. A lot of the muddle I didn't like in the first episode got more ordered, Richard Dormer thankfully settled down the horrific number of tics Vimes was originally saddled with and I got a better feel of what the show was going for. By episodes 3-4 I was enjoying it a lot more.

It's interesting. It is not an adaption really, but it's not entirely it's own thing. The writer for this is obviously familiar with the source material, but used it as a starting point to explore it in different ways.

It's not great either, don't get me wrong. The comedy is still very hit and miss, I can't say every step they've taken sits well with me, and even though I'm only about halfway through episode six I really don't care for what they've done with the Summoning Dark.

Being fair, I like several of the characters quite a bit, even if they don't jibe with the book versions. Some of the material is pretty funny. I like the fact that we are taking a lot of things about Discworld and watching them through someone else's interpretation. It's the sort of thing that might have gone down better if this had been adapted more in the past. But as this is the first visual adaption of the Night Watch books (barring cameos in Hogfather and Going Postal), I get that people feel cheated of a more straightforward adaption.

Do I recommend it? No, not really. For folks who aren't fans of the material this probably isn't the best introduction unless something particular about the previews interested you. For fans, well, only if you can completely let go what you know of the characters from the books and take this on its own merits. While I don't think it's as bad as the reactions to the first episode would suggest, it's not good enough to overcome the fact that many will see this as trashing the source material.

The humor comic strip Bloom County Once wrote a parody movie review .

It went thus:

"George Phblat's new film, 'Benji Saves the Universe,' has brought the word 'BAD' to new levels of badness. Bad acting. Bad effects. Bad everything. This film just oozed rottenness from every bad scene...Simply bad beyond all infinite dimensions of possible badness...(thinks a minute) Well, maybe not that bad, but Lord, it wasn't good."

That's what I'm taking from your review. It isn't a total dumpster fire like 'Plan 9 from Outer Space', but it's still not making anyone's list of greatest shows of all time.

It wasn't as bad as all that, but it certainly wasn't good. I think the word we're looking for is 'mediocre'.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Dire_Flumph]

That's what I'm taking from your review. It isn't a total dumpster fire like 'Plan 9 from Outer Space', but it's still not making anyone's list of greatest shows of all time.

It wasn't as bad as all that, but it certainly wasn't good. I think the word we're looking for is 'mediocre'.

Not really a review, but that's largely what I was trying to get across. I don't think it quite deserves the reams of hate it's been getting, but by and large, there's a lot out there and likely better things to spend time on.

I'm keeping with it largely because I find it interesting, and I am enjoying it for what it's worth. But it's not presenting a vision successfully enough to make me really want to defend or recommend it like say, "Lower Decks" a few months ago. That was another one that took some risks with an established and beloved property, but I feel it did so a lot more deftly than "The Watch" has. At least so far.

[Palanan]

I watch a fair amount of BBC America, so I end up seeing a lot of commercials for this. Way too many.

Apart from the characters, I just can't fathom a version of Ankh-Morpork with old keyboards, neon paint and electric guitars. The choice to represent the city as some sort of strange medieval-modern hybrid is absolutely jarring to me. Makes no sense, and from what I saw of the first episode it isn't especially well-executed, like most everything else in the mix.

So I can certainly believe it isn't presenting a coherent vision. The only silver lining is that the commercials gave me fair warning of what to expect.

[uncool]

The choice to represent the city as some sort of strange medieval-modern hybrid is absolutely jarring to me.

I mean, that kinda describes Ankh-Morpork to a 't' in the later books. Computers, rapid and reliable long-distance communication, cameras, computers, fundamental physics, rock music, forensics...yes, it takes a while to get there, but it's definitely there.

[Rodin]

I mean, that kinda describes Ankh-Morpork to a 't' in the later books. Computers, rapid and reliable long-distance communication, cameras, computers, fundamental physics, rock music, forensics...yes, it takes a while to get there, but it's definitely there.

The difference is in execution. The TV series created a modern world and then arbitrarily made aspects of the setting medieval. That requires explanation - if there are neon lights, where are the other fruits of technology that allowed the creation of neon lights? With no explanation, the results are nonsensical.

Compare the books. There is exactly one computer (unless there's another computer besides Hex I'm not recalling), and it was made using magic by the wizards. There are no additional computers because the wizards themselves don't know what they did and don't understand it. Cameras use salamanders to function. A PDA is an imp that remembers stuff for you. Rock music existed briefly due to freaky magical effects and then went away. Forensics exists, but at a level Sherlock Holmes would be comfortable with. That ties in well with the pseudo-Victorian feel of the later books.

What you cannot call any aspect of the original setting is "punk". The TV show tried to add that, and I have no idea why.

[Anymage]

Sensible fidelity to what would be technologically feasible has never been something that discworld bothered itself about. Given how much Pratchett used magic doohickies to mimic modern technological devices all over the place, I don't think being a bit more tech forward would really be a problem if the show was otherwise better.

Or to put it another way. If the show were a more faithful recreation of one of the better plots, or at least managed to keep the original Pratchett feel while creating a new story, I don't think you'd have more than token commentary about the visual style. It's just one change, and by definition a very visible one, in a series that changed enough to become rather mediocre.

[Aedilred]

Continuing Vetinari spoilers...

Spoiler

Show

I think there is very much room for a better writer to have a woman be the Patrician in the context of Discworld. Queen Elizabeth I was a terrifyingly competent and powerful politician and reigning monarch, but that didn't make England in the 1500s less sexist overall. The Patrician having to be twice as ruthless while also letting her council of dumbasses have a bit of leeway could help with the weirdness that is the ways that early Ankh-Morpork is a rolling disaster barely held together by a competent dictator.

This show is not the show that is going to do that, though.

On this, Upstart Crow did a reasonable job of it, in the episode with The Taming of the Shrew:

Spoiler: Upstart Crow

Show

Will has written Shrew, which his male friends think is hilarious, but which upsets his female friends and relatives with its misogyny. Will submits Shrew to Robert Greene, Master of the Revels, for approval. As everyone knows, Greene hates Will, and he refuses to allow the play out of spite.

Marlowe, who is Will's friend but has his own agenda, goes to Greene to "thank" him for not passing the play along to the Queen, because she would surely have taken great offence and had Will punished. Of course, Greene immediately takes the play to the Queen hoping for that outcome, but to the surprise of all (except Marlowe) she loves it and it is duly put into production.

Marlowe subsequently explains his reasoning to Will and family: Elizabeth has been queen for decades and in that time she has done nothing to advance the position of women. She likes being in charge, benefits from the system as it is, and doesn't want other women getting any ideas, so she was happy to approve Shrew to help keep them in their place.

[Wraith]

Compare the books. There is exactly one computer (unless there's another computer besides Hex I'm not recalling), and it was made using magic by the wizards. There are no additional computers because the wizards themselves don't know what they did and don't understand it. Cameras use salamanders to function. A PDA is an imp that remembers stuff for you. Rock music existed briefly due to freaky magical effects and then went away. Forensics exists, but at a level Sherlock Holmes would be comfortable with. That ties in well with the pseudo-Victorian feel of the later books.

What you cannot call any aspect of the original setting is "punk". The TV show tried to add that, and I have no idea why.

It feels to me like The Watch is what you'd get if you tried to make a Discworld TV show without reading the books, but instead having someone who read them describe the setting to you, and then made assumptions on what else also must therefore exist.

"Discworld is like, medieval London, but there's computers and cameras and rock music and stuff."

None of that is incorrect per say, but it's missing all the big pieces that go in between to explain that there is exactly one computer, and it's a magical hodge-podge of crazy ideas and intelligence that no one understands. Similarly, yes there was rock music but that's not the same thing as there being electric guitars. "Sybil Ramkin is a duchess, but she's also a heroine and does lots of things to help people" - That's also all true, but it's all true in entirely the opposite way that would make her into Batman.

I haven't yet brought myself to watch the show in full - mostly because I'm British and we don't get BBC America without some... creativity.... - But I have been watching clips on youtube to see if I want to make the effort. I have to say, I think that despite everything I've heard I like all of the actors so far - ignore the wonkiness of the characters and trying to measure them up the those in the books, they're all clearly having a good time and are taking it far more seriously than one would expect.
Especially Jo Eaton-Kent who plays Cheery - I like their no-nonsense approach to a non-binary character who, rather than being portrayed as neurotic and scared of being 'found out' like many Hollywood adaptations would have us believe to be the norm, it very competent and enjoyable to watch.

I'm warming to it. Dire-Flumph's summary is a lot more flattering - yet also objective - than most other things I've read about the show, and I'm now intrigued. I've enjoyed plenty of "Not Good, But Not Really Bad" stuff in the past, so it's probably fair that I give it a fair shot.

[Anonymouswizard]

Compare the books. There is exactly one computer (unless there's another computer besides Hex I'm not recalling), and it was made using magic by the wizards. There are no additional computers because the wizards themselves don't know what they did and don't understand it. Cameras use salamanders to function. A PDA is an imp that remembers stuff for you. Rock music existed briefly due to freaky magical effects and then went away. Forensics exists, but at a level Sherlock Holmes would be comfortable with. That ties in well with the pseudo-Victorian feel of the later books.

There is another computer or at least proto-computer in the books IIRC, it's at another uni and HEX communicates with it. But the point you're making is that the book began with a certain level of technology that people understand and when it required something they didn't fit (a computer) it came up with a suitable and thematic explanation (an ant farm but like really complex).

What you cannot call any aspect of the original setting is "punk". The TV show tried to add that, and I have no idea why.

There's some political views that qualify, but that's it.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Rodin
The difference is in execution. The TV series created a modern world and then arbitrarily made aspects of the setting medieval. That requires explanation - if there are neon lights, where are the other fruits of technology that allowed the creation of neon lights? With no explanation, the results are nonsensical.

Exactly. “Nonsensical” describes pretty much everything we see.

Originally Posted by Rodin
What you cannot call any aspect of the original setting is "punk". The TV show tried to add that, and I have no idea why.

This, this, and more this.

Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard
There is another computer or at least proto-computer in the books IIRC, it's at another uni and HEX communicates with it.

As mentioned, this works well for the books; but it doesn’t explain why, in the show, there are piles of beat-up old keyboards just laying around.

Fact is, Pratchett did a lovely job of evoking the feel of Ankh-Morporkh as a Renaissance/Victorian setting, which is one of the many reasons I loved the books so much. The fact that they used ingenuity and/or magic to replicate certain isolated aspects of modern life, while otherwise maintaining the period feel, does not lend itself to body-slamming the city into a bizarre techno-grunge look.

For those who watched past the first episode, are there any cars, trucks, mopeds, etc.? Since the show's version of Ankh-Morpork evidently has some form of electricity, are there any electric vehicles? Because, if there are electric lights, electric guitars, electric keyboards, etc., it would be strange if there were no electric vehicles.

[Dire_Flumph]

For those who watched past the first episode, are there any cars, trucks, mopeds, etc.? Since the show's version of Ankh-Morpork evidently has some form of electricity, are there any electric vehicles? Because, if there are electric lights, electric guitars, electric keyboards, etc., it would be strange if there were no electric vehicles.

Sort of. The tech level of the show isn't supposed to be as high as a lot of the random stuff seems to indicate. Keyboards, guitars, etc seem to have their origins in stuff pulled in by the Wizards of Unseen university from other worlds for study. It's indicated that doing so causes a lot of thaumic energy to stick to them, which can be unpredictable. I'm not sure I've got quite a handle on how this all ties into the story or if it's just to hand-wave the background away as we haven't spent a lot of time with the Wizards of the setting so far.

It's also not clear that the setting does have electricity. What looks like electricity in one scene is referenced by Cheery as "excessive Thaumic Fields". Some of what we see, like the video cameras with imps in them are clearly fantasy-alternative tech meant to emulate more modern tech like in the books.

So a car does make a prominent appearance in one scene, but electric vehicles are not a feature of the setting as presented (the Watch had clearly never seen anything that looked like the car before).

[brionl]

There is another computer or at least proto-computer in the books IIRC, it's at another uni and HEX communicates with it. But the point you're making is that the book began with a certain level of technology that people understand and when it required something they didn't fit (a computer) it came up with a suitable and thematic explanation (an ant farm but like really complex).

As mentioned in Unseen Academicals that would be Pex, at the University in Brazeneck, under Adrian Turnipseed. When last seen it was suffering from a COE (Chicken Oversize Error).

[Sapphire Guard]

I could get behind not being too bound to the books, you frequently have to do that with most adaptations. But where that leaves me is 'what is in here that makes this worth a look? What does it bring to the table?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Sapphire Guard
I could get behind not being too bound to the books, you frequently have to do that with most adaptations.

Thing is, they didn't have to make any of the changes that they did. There are several other TV/movie adaptations of Discworld novels that stay very close to the source material, and range from enjoyably workable to hilariously well-done.

They could have made an equally close, equally enjoyable adaptation of the Watch novels, but they chose not to, for reasons unknown. Some people are evidently able to work with this show, but for those of us who prefer adaptations to be more than vaguely recognizable, this show just doesn't bring anything to the table.

[pendell]

Thing is, they didn't have to make any of the changes that they did. There are several other TV/movie adaptations of Discworld novels that stay very close to the source material, and range from enjoyably workable to hilariously well-done.

Such as? My fav is Going Postal because Charles Dance plays Vetinari, and owns the part. Are there others? My video library needs expanding. Pray expand on the 'hilariously well done' shows :).

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Dire_Flumph]

Such as? My fav is Going Postal because Charles Dance plays Vetinari, and owns the part. Are there others? My video library needs expanding. Pray expand on the 'hilariously well done' shows :).

Respectfully,

Brian P.

There have been five to memory. The Two Cosgrove Hall animated adaptions (Wyrd Sisters, Soul Music) and the three Sky live action adaptions (Hogfather, Colour of Magic (also adapts Light Fantastic), and Going Postal). Additionally, an animated feature film of "The Amazing Maurice and his Educated Rodents" is supposed to be in production and out next year. For other Pratchett works, Cosgrove Hall did an animated version of "Truckers" and there was an Amazon production of "Good Omens" out a couple of years ago. I live in the States, so I may have missed others.

I'd definitely recommend Hogfather as by far the superior one, it features some stellar performances by Michelle Dockery and Marc Warren.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Dire_Flumph
The Two Cosgrove Hall animated adaptions (Wyrd Sisters, Soul Music)….

Thanks for the comprehensive list, I didn’t even know about these.

Originally Posted by Dire_Flumph
I'd definitely recommend Hogfather as by far the superior one, it features some stellar performances by Michelle Dockery and Marc Warren.

This is the standout that I’ve seen, primarily because of Michelle Dockery. As far as I know, it’s the only fantasy work that she’s done, but she approached it with skill and professionalism.

It’s been some years since I’ve seen it, but I recall it followed the book fairly closely. Certainly the best of the Sky adaptations, which are the only ones I’ve seen.

Originally Posted by pendell
...Charles Dance plays Vetinari, and owns the part.

Yes. Yes he does.

Charles Dance is the Vetinari. When you absolutely, positively have to kill every wizard in the room...accept no substitutes.

[Corvus]

There is also Troll Bridge, a short film based on a short story by Pterry. It is phenomenally good.

[Rodin]

Thing is, they didn't have to make any of the changes that they did. There are several other TV/movie adaptations of Discworld novels that stay very close to the source material, and range from enjoyably workable to hilariously well-done.

They could have made an equally close, equally enjoyable adaptation of the Watch novels, but they chose not to, for reasons unknown. Some people are evidently able to work with this show, but for those of us who prefer adaptations to be more than vaguely recognizable, this show just doesn't bring anything to the table.

I can understand not wanting to do a direct adaptation of the Watch novels. They are murder mysteries after all. I realize that hasn't stopped other famous murder mysteries from getting direct adaptations, but I would still have liked to see a proper police procedural set in Ankh-Morpork. The idea of the show is solid. The Watch novels focus on major events - a dragon attack, an attempted coup, etc. There's plenty of room between that and the "distraught housewife standing over the body with a bloody rolling pin" that Vimes remarks isn't really a murder.

Stay faithful to setting and write serious murder mysteries investigated with humorous means. That's all they had to do to spark my interest. I wouldn't have expected the writing to be on par with Sir Pterry's. It doesn't have to be. It just has to be good and make appropriate use of the wonderfully weird world he created.

[Cuttlerilla]

The Watch is an abomination unto us fans! But fear not, as Troll Bridge came out recently! Cohen is old, and he's dreadfully cold, and he just wishes things could go back to the good old days. I'm apparently not allowed to post links as a fairly inactive account, :( but it's available for free at trolbridge [dot] film :D

[Dragonus45]

So having finally gotten around to really watching this I have a new great example, next to Castlevania, to point towards for how something can be not really all that bad on it's own but also be a truly terrible adaptation of it's source material. Mostly in the characters really, you can change so much about the city and it's aesthetic and whatnot and it still fine but you have to get the characters right. They didn't even get most of them in. Which honestly was to be expected I think, The Watch stuff probably needed to be a series of movies instead of a show.

[Wraith]

This thread feels like as good-a place as any to pay tribute to Terry Pratchett.

Today, March 12th, is the 6th anniversary of his walk across the black sands, and I for one still feel a choke in my throat when I type that sentence.

So, I'm going to do what I always like to do: Treat other Discworlders to links to some of my favourite Pratchett TV and short films.

Nullus Anxietus Presents: Run, Rincewind, Run! - a 2007 short-film wherein Rincewind escapes from the Discworld and meets his Creator. Again.

Shaking Hands With Death - An open lecture on the nature of life and death, written by Terry and narrated by Tony Robinson.

Back in Black - The Terry Pratchett story, a biographic documentary narrated by... Terry Pratchett! (Or rather, Paul Kaye doing an absolutely stunning impression)

Mind how you go.

[Tyndmyr]

So, uh, I watched the pilot, and let me tell ya, it ain't great.

It's sort of like if someone watched Lord of the Rings and said "Yeah, this is okay, but the Balrog needs an ipad."

After you get past the grungy neon cyberpunk aesthetic, the characters sort of bother you a bit. If you want to focus on a Watch that doesn't want to do its job, why would you cut out Sgt Colon and Nobby? That's...kind of what they are, and they're hilarious at it.

They drop references to all the books as if it's some kind of oddball fan service, but I don't really want a one line reference to a story, I'd like to watch an actual story. And in the pilot, nothing much really happens. We get to meet our cardboard cutout characters, and the main plot is, uh, the bad guy deals drugs to get a book that summons dragons, but none of that or how it happens makes a great deal of sense.

For all the talk about the guilds, we never actually get to see them working much. Why was this made, and for who?

[factotum]

For all the talk about the guilds, we never actually get to see them working much. Why was this made, and for who?

Like I implied earlier, pretty sure it was made mainly to stoke the ego of the head writer on the project.

[Manga Shoggoth]

...and the main plot is, uh, the bad guy deals drugs to get a book that summons dragons, but none of that or how it happens makes a great deal of sense.

So, stealing ideas from the first of the Watch books, but adding nothing new. (And in the original, the book was stolen from the UU Library by a member of The Elucidated Brethren of the Ebon Night, who I bet don't turn up here...)

[Tyndmyr]

So, stealing ideas from the first of the Watch books, but adding nothing new. (And in the original, the book was stolen from the UU Library by a member of The Elucidated Brethren of the Ebon Night, who I bet don't turn up here...)

Correct. Like pretty much all of the rest of the references, they grab the thing, but miss the context that made the thing important.

Like, yeah, Carcer has a gun, but nobody treats it as weird, and given the setting, there's no real reason for the viewer to consider it as such. Why would a gun be odd if people have smartphones?

Like I implied earlier, pretty sure it was made mainly to stoke the ego of the head writer on the project.

Probably the most reasonable explanation, though honestly, if I wrote this, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want credit for it.

[pendell]

This thread feels like as good-a place as any to pay tribute to Terry Pratchett.

Today, March 12th, is the 6th anniversary of his walk across the black sands, and I for one still feel a choke in my throat when I type that sentence.

So, I'm going to do what I always like to do: Treat other Discworlders to links to some of my favourite Pratchett TV and short films.

Nullus Anxietus Presents: Run, Rincewind, Run! - a 2007 short-film wherein Rincewind escapes from the Discworld and meets his Creator. Again.

Shaking Hands With Death - An open lecture on the nature of life and death, written by Terry and narrated by Tony Robinson.

Back in Black - The Terry Pratchett story, a biographic documentary narrated by... Terry Pratchett! (Or rather, Paul Kaye doing an absolutely stunning impression)

Mind how you go.

Thank you. May Sir Terry rest in peace.

Respectfully,

Brian P.