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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Guide: The Best Subclasses For Party Roles After Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything

    Guide updated - draconic sorcerer is now rated as the best blaster. Ancestral guardians barbarian in damage mitigation has been lowered to an honourable mention. Evoker wizard (with a hexblade dip) has been put into the three way toss up for best single target nova damage overall. Honourable mention added for arcane trickster in single target sustained damage. And possibly some other changes I am forgetting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hael View Post
    So the best 'melee striking' damage builds in the game are all ranged (or with access to range), b/c in practice you don't get to melee all the time as others have pointed out. But i'll sketch the whiteroom analysis.
    For this guide, I decided to split “striker” into “sustained single target damage” and “single target nova damage” because they’re whole different beasts and it is not all that useful to compare builds that are good at one of them directly to builds that are good at the other in terms of effectiveness. I’ll reply to your analysis first about the sustained damage and then the nova damage. To jump the gun: I don’t think we really disagree about anything.

    All of the classes we're talking (Zealot barb, fighter generally, oathbreaker paladin, hexblade) about are basically using the same element to get massive damage: PAM+GWM. You're totally right that they're in the same stratosphere of damage.

    Comparing them in terms of sustained single target damage, oathbreaker and hexblade both need a turn to set up their always on advantage where they aren't attacking, whereas the zealot barbarian doesn't. They only forego one attack for rage. They also get bonuses to damage (aura of hate, lifedrinker, divine fury) which are essentially comparable - but the Zealot Barbarian's is biggest.

    The fighter can't set up their own advantage (not easily anyway) but they do get that third attack. That is why I’ve chosen to give them an honourable mentions for sustained damage rather than hexblade or oathbreaker, who don't have anything above and beyond what the zealot does for sustained damage.

    Now, in terms of nova damage, you’re completely right again: Zealot barb has nothing at all, and falls off against the others completely.

    So I suppose this is to say that I don’t think we’re really disagreeing about anything, except perhaps about whether a barbarian who is raging really counts as doing ‘sustained damage’. I’ll admit, it is a pretty subjective question. But at high levels a barbarian will be raging almost all the time, whereas oathbreaker/hexblade/samurai won’t be doing their nova stuff all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gignere View Post
    Whereas I’m playing an arcane trickster and I’m doing full DPR the second initiative is rolled with no setup. So in theory my DPR should be far behind the hexadin but in practice I nearly always out DPR the Paladin in every encounter.
    Yeah, I’ve received some other feedback about the AT too. They’ve now got an honorable mention in the guide.

    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot View Post
    I don't understand why you value the Paladin's basic level 6 ability so highly but then assume the party won't be grouped in a way to benefit from it during combat, where it actually matters most.

    Many effects that will force a saving throw are from spells, Ancients aura makes using Aura of Protection safer.

    I'm not basing it solely off the Aura, although it's a fantastic ability for taking damage away from your spellcasters (reminder that a spellcaster who takes no damage makes no con saves for concentration), but also their oath spells like Sleep, Counterspell and Hypnotic Pattern. Part of mitigating damage to yourself and allies is preventative and Redemption gets a lot of tools for this.
    [...]
    For a simple bonus to initiative to amount to a substantial increase in mitigated damage your party has to regularly go before all of the enemies and always kill at least one enemy before that enemy has a turn, otherwise you haven't actually mitigated any damage you've just gone first.
    Prosecutor Godot, thanks for expanding on your reasoning. I am completely convinced - I've overrated the value of initiative in damage mitigation and made some overly generous assumptions about its use. In terms of its replacement:

    Quote Originally Posted by OldTrees1 View Post
    Actually, the Ancients aura allows both their auras to cover the entire party. Unlike other Paladins, the Ancients aura directly addresses the reason why the party is not normally within the Paladin's aura. So, in actual play across multiple campaigns, the Ancients Paladin aura protects the entire party.
    Perhaps ancients is the best among the paladin subclasses for damage mitigation after all. Not only does it protect you from magical damage, but in so doing it makes it even easier than before to crowd into the paladin’s aura and take advantage of the bonus to saves. But both ancients and redemption will get honourable mentions in there because it’s pretty damn close and situational - you’re point about the great bonus spells from redemption and its regeneration are well taken.

    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot View Post
    And speaking of control, Oath of Conquest didn't even make honorable mention on your control list?
    So far, the control list is only full casters, and the reason for that is versatility. The oath of conquest paladin’s ability is pretty powerful, but one good ability does not a good controller make. Many enemies are immune to fear. And your ability to deploy fear is dependent on resources which you have on a very limited basis (CD once per short rest, 3rd level or higher spell slots)
    Last edited by Doccit; 2021-01-10 at 10:59 PM. Reason: Typos,

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Guide: The Best Subclasses For Party Roles After Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything

    First: Thanks for sharing with us your labor of love. That was no small amount of work that you put in there. *applause*

    I find your analytical model to be at odds with how the game is built. The fundamental encounter structure is for a party of 3, 4, of 5 PCs. You identify 8 roles. Granted, you can play with larger parties (I've been in two six player games, and a seven player game) but they stretch the framework. The roles are either 4, or 5, and if I am being generous, 6. You offer 8. Besides the Utility role being a non starter (Utility is a secondary mission area for any other role) the model for the game is either 4 or 5 as built. Action economy gets a little goofy as PC count goes up.

    I'd be more receptive to your guide if you clearly identified 5 roles and then made the case for the best of that five. I say this based on a thread we had a while back on a philosophy for Party Optimization, not for single class optimization.

    Your guide is about methods, not roles. As such, I find the roles of "Utility" and "Surviviability" to be irrelevant. If I may quote Kembai Shimata: "If we only defend, we lose the war."

    I'd suggest that you rescrub this and find five roles, and sell me on them. (OK, maybe 6 since Blaster and Controller are both discrete Arcane Caster approaches to that role)
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2021-01-19 at 10:09 AM.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Guide: The Best Subclasses For Party Roles After Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything

    Quote Originally Posted by Doccit View Post
    So far, the control list is only full casters, and the reason for that is versatility. The oath of conquest paladin’s ability is pretty powerful, but one good ability does not a good controller make. Many enemies are immune to fear. And your ability to deploy fear is dependent on resources which you have on a very limited basis (CD once per short rest, 3rd level or higher spell slots)
    Control tends to fall short on most big bads even as far as spellcasters are concerned, and the small mooks (which are often the primary targets of large range control spells) tend not to be immune to fear.

    Also, not to forget, if there is a larger target who isn't immune to fear then Wrathful Smite, a 1st level spell, is a fantastic option. It doesn't just fear them but also makes efforts to overcome the fear after the initial failure a check, rather than a saving throw.

    There's a very well written guide on Conquest Paladin, I would recommend giving it a look, perhaps it can convince you.

    EDIT: I realize I might be coming off a bit too aggressive in my critique, I hope that it doesn't seem malicious because my goal is only to help, as 5E grows it becomes easy to overlook some things.

    I'd also second KorvinStormast's comment above, you could reasonably crunch down the categories. If it were me, I might start with a handful of defined roles and then have 1 or 2 subsets if there's enough variance in their role in the party.

    As an example, Support would be a primary role and Healer/Controller would be subsets of this role.
    Last edited by ProsecutorGodot; 2021-01-10 at 07:57 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Guide: The Best Subclasses For Party Roles After Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    First: Thanks for sharing with us your labor of love. That was no small amount of work that you put in there. *applause*
    Thanks so much for saying so! I really appreciate it.

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    I find your analytical model to be at odds with how the game is built. The fundamental encounter structure is for a party of 3, 4, of 5 PCs. You identify 8 roles. Granted, you can play with larger parties (I've been in two six player games, and a seven player game) but they stretch the framework. The roles are either 4, or 5, and if I am being generous, 6. You offer 8.
    Perhaps my use of the word 'role' here is misleading - I am not trying to say anything about proper party composition. I'm describing 8 different ways in which a character can be exceptionally powerful, in ways that contribute to the success of the party (although survivability, as you note, is an oddball here).

    I don't think the best party will have 8 characters, each of which excels in a different one of these areas. Rather, I'm describing 8 different 'character building goals' that a person might have, and describing the best way to achieve each of them.

    I, personally, would not want to build a character that was not very good in at least two of these roles, and it is totally possible to build characters who do.

    I don't think 5th edition dungeons and dragons is built with too much attention to party roles in your sense of the word - at least to nowhere near the same extent that 4th edition was.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Guide: The Best Subclasses For Party Roles After Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything

    I think you are still underselling the AT a bit, because your zealot barbarian actually has optimized feats.

    For an AT or any melee rogue if you wanted optimized DPR you would use sentinel for off turn sneak attacks. I think even if you assume it only procs 2-3 times per encounter it would increase the AT and any rogue’s sustained DPR dramatically.

    With a one round set up an AT can almost guarantee that sentinel procs by combining with mirror image.
    Last edited by Gignere; 2021-01-10 at 08:29 PM.

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    Default Re: Guide: The Best Subclasses For Party Roles After Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything

    I agree with some, I disagree with some, but it was an enjoyable read nevertheless and it's a fun conversation piece. I echo Korvin's comment and say thanks for making it!

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    Default Re: Guide: The Best Subclasses For Party Roles After Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything

    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot View Post
    Control tends to fall short on most big bads even as far as spellcasters are concerned, and the small mooks (which are often the primary targets of large range control spells) tend not to be immune to fear.

    Also, not to forget, if there is a larger target who isn't immune to fear then Wrathful Smite, a 1st level spell, is a fantastic option. It doesn't just fear them but also makes efforts to overcome the fear after the initial failure a check, rather than a saving throw.

    There's a very well written guide on Conquest Paladin, I would recommend giving it a look, perhaps it can convince you.
    Interesting points - I forgot about Wrathful smite. Thanks for the link! I'll definitely look into it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot View Post
    EDIT: I realize I might be coming off a bit too aggressive in my critique, I hope that it doesn't seem malicious because my goal is only to help, as 5E grows it becomes easy to overlook some things.
    I appreciate you saying so. You did come off a bit aggressive, but not more so than many of the other people in this thread - lol. In any case your comments were quite helpful for improving the guide.

    Quote Originally Posted by ProsecutorGodot View Post
    I'd also second KorvinStormast's comment above, you could reasonably crunch down the categories. If it were me, I might start with a handful of defined roles and then have 1 or 2 subsets if there's enough variance in their role in the party.
    I disagree - comparing apples to apples already causes enough disagreement and uncertainty. I'd want to avoid comparing apples to oranges where reasonably possible, which is what comparing a specialized healer to a specialized controller would consist in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gignere View Post
    For an AT or any melee rogue if you wanted optimized DPR you would use sentinel for off turn sneak attacks. I think even if you assume it only procs 2-3 times per encounter it would increase the AT and any rogue’s sustained DPR dramatically.

    With a one round set up an AT can almost guarantee that sentinel procs by combining with mirror image.
    Without the mirror image thing, I don't think sentinel provides very many attacks at all. With it, wow - that seems astonishingly good. I'll look into it because I am have my suspicions that this is a big stretch RAW wise. If it does, AT with sentinel/Worcester surely deserves a closer look. That seems on the border of nova damage though because of how few spell slots the rogue gets.

    Quote Originally Posted by EdenIndustries View Post
    I agree with some, I disagree with some, but it was an enjoyable read nevertheless and it's a fun conversation piece. I echo Korvin's comment and say thanks for making it!
    I'm glad to hear you enjoyed it! You're very welcome!
    Last edited by Doccit; 2021-01-10 at 08:58 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: Guide: The Best Subclasses For Party Roles After Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything

    Quote Originally Posted by Doccit View Post
    I disagree - comparing apples to apples already causes enough disagreement and uncertainty. I'd want to avoid comparing apples to oranges where reasonably possible, which is what comparing a specialized healer to a specialized controller would consist in.
    That's why I suggested subsets in the categories. Both are clearly supporting roles, but through different paths.
    Last edited by ProsecutorGodot; 2021-01-10 at 09:07 PM.

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    Default Re: Guide: The Best Subclasses For Party Roles After Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything

    Quote Originally Posted by Doccit View Post
    Without the mirror image thing, I don't think sentinel provides very many attacks at all. With it, wow - that seems astonishingly good. I'll look into it because I am have my suspicions that this is a big stretch RAW wise. If it does, AT with sentinel/Worcester surely deserves a closer look. That seems on the border of nova damage though because of how few spell slots the rogue gets.
    Well the number of times sentinel procs depends a bit on party make up, if you have at least one other melee without sentinel you can expect it to proc at least once if not more than once per encounter.

    My current AT isn’t high enough for sentinel yet but I would had many opportunities to use it because I’m always in melee with the hexadin. If your DM isn’t out to counter sentinel there is no reason for most mobs not to attack the hexadin/other melee at least a few times.

    Another nova AT can do is with haste instead of mirror image + sentinel. They can sneak attack with haste attack and ready an action and attack on another turn for another sneak attack. So more than one ways for the AT to nova.

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    Default Re: Guide: The Best Subclasses For Party Roles After Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything

    Quote Originally Posted by Doccit View Post
    I'm back with more replies. Thanks for your thoughtful commentary LudicSavant!
    NP!

    You're completely right. I am thoroughly convinced. Calling the tempest cleric the best blaster was a mistake. Destructive wave is great, but that it can't be upcast, and the small radius and small damage of shatter and call lightning, even where maximized, are big problems.
    Speaking of Destructive Wave, consider that the Light Cleric's Channel Divinity covers the same area of effect. It also doesn't count as a spell, so you can do something like cast Spiritual Weapon or use Telekinetic in the same turn.

    So for example, a level 10 Light Cleric using the same resources as a Tempest Cleric's Destructive Wave can cast a level 5 Spirit Guardians (which they can keep going for multiple encounters in a dungeoneering scenario), then on their turn they can use Radiance of the Dawn (their channel Divinity) for 2d10+10, then hit for 5d8 (with a better save target than Constitution) with Spirit Guardians, and for one target fish for an extra 5d8 from the "enters" damage from Telekinetic, for a total of 66 damage, plus the potential for more from ally combos (since allies can push enemies in and out of Spirit Guardians for repeated activations).

    Maximized Destructive Wave is nice, but it's about as good as the Tempest Cleric's AoE blasting is gonna get and it is hindered by targeting Con and lacking scaling. (Shatter and Thunderwave are also limited by targeting Con, and Call Lightning is limited by having a teensy weensy AoE and being worse than Spirit Guardians for ongoing damage).

    Edit
    Not that anyone asked, but if you're curious about how the Metamagic Adept feat impacts the post-Tasha's single class Tempest Cleric, the answer is... it lets you turn Fire Storm and half of Flame Strike to Thunder damage. And that's about it. Turns out the Cleric spell list has very few spells that deal Acid, Cold, Fire, or Poison damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doccit View Post
    Great point about the fact that even casting it in lower level spell slots, you're still out damaging the samurai. I had overlooked this. The simulacrum is worth mentioning (I'll be sure to) but it is about as situationally relevant as the Shepard Druid's massive damage before you get 9th level spells - it costs 1500gp and has a 12 hour casting time, and there is no way to get its spell slots back. I will update my analysis of the evoker.
    I think you're still missing things about the Evoker (it's one of the classes with the biggest gaps between optimization floor and ceiling), but for now just talking about Simulacrum.

    Simulacrum can be thought of as a way to convert gold pieces into slot resources and action economy at an exchange rate which is frankly insane. 1500gp is a complete steal for what it does. You don't even need to use its spell slots often, even your cantrips hit unusually hard as an Evoker. It's honestly difficult for anyone to compete with optimally-played Simulacrum-using blasters at level 13+, even if your wallet's tight.

    Edit
    Another thing I think you may be underestimating is how effective they can be before level 11. A common mistake people make when evaluating the Hexvoker on paper after hearing about it on the internet is thinking that the Magic Missile + EE + Curse combo is basically about where it starts and about where it ends... but little could be further from the truth. The greatest strength of a Hexvoker is their versatile toolkit. Consider that we have an entire guide on this forum written by a guy arguing why they're the best blaster specifically when Magic Missile is banned. I don't necessarily agree with everything that poster says, but it's a big mistake to think that the Hexvoker is MM+EE+HC, rather than MM+EE+HC being but one tool in their giant Batman toolbelt. And even when you are using MM+EE+HC, it should often be used simultaneously with other tools. One of the best things about them is their ability to efficiently expand their action economy in a variety of ways, you should be using that.

    Edit2
    For example, you can just be Concentrating on something useful more often than not. Cast Darkness on that Devil's Sight Hexbow. Cast Holy Weapon on that many-attacking Samurai. Cast a Tasha's summon. Cast Overchanneled Melf's Minute Meteors. These things don't have brief durations, and they boost your damage output (even in the cases of buffs that boost an ally, that's still damage you are causing to occur). And you have non-Concentration things like Animate Dead and Crown of Stars and Otiluke's Freezing Sphere and Fire Shield, too. And Contingency to use a spell slot from last week without an action. And your Owl familiar should habitually be using Flyby help to contribute to DPR itself (or be delivering potions, dropping ball bearings or oil, etc etc. Familiars can do lots of things).

    You can say that any of those things are situational but you have so many of them that there's just about always a few for the situation you're in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doccit
    In 5th edition, tanks in general are not very good.
    Quote Originally Posted by Doccit View Post
    There is a comparison to the Cavalier fighter in the guide now, which is in the honourable mentions.
    That's an improvement, but why would we be talking about something like Cavalier when Rune Knights exist? Not to mention Eldritch Knights, Conquest Paladins, Redemption Paladins, Ancients Paladins, heck just "optimized tank Paladins in general," Arcana Clerics, Tasha-enhanced Life Clerics, Peace Abjurers, Retvokers, Sorcadins, Bardblades, and more?

    There's very strong competition for the Ancestral Guardian out there that seems to have gone unaddressed. Competition that I daresay is better than the Cavalier.

    I think the issue may be less that tanks in 5e are bad, so much as that you might not have seen a lot of different kinds of optimized interdiction tanks played. Am I wrong?
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2021-01-10 at 10:40 PM. Reason: Added stuff as time permits.
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Guide: The Best Subclasses For Party Roles After Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything

    I'd echo those who have said the guide doesn't sufficiently take saves into account in the 'survivability' and 'mitigation' categories. Not only is it not true that other classes lack the aggro capabilities of moon druids and zealot barbarians (at the very least totem barbarians, spirit barbarians, & cavalier fighters warrant mention), even without a bespoke aggro mechanic, you can draw /a ton/ of heat away from your allies by being a walking +5 to all saves aura, while simultaneously giving three (or more) party members an additional +d4 to saves (and attacks!) on top of that. Even if you have the best AC and max HP in the party, enemies in many encounters are still going to target you in the hopes of knocking out the aura, or at least making you fail concentration and lose the bless, because they know that the enemy groups most dangerous attacks, which are almost always save based, simply aren't going to land as long as you're standing.

    And that doesn't even get into other potential abilities and concentration effects. You do have ancients and redeemers in honorable mention as mitigation, but the way they operate as mitigators makes them effective tank/survivability characters as well. Conquerors, while certainly not top tier due to the proliferation of strong wisdom saves and not-uncommon fear immunity, probably warrant honorable mention somewhere in here as well. It's not uncommon for conquerors to lock down multiple foes with their subclass aura, while attracting heat from even more enemies hoping to free their allies by forcing concentration saves. And while they don't really 'turn on' until level 9, spirit guardians is so good on top of the paladins existing package of abilities that even the oft maligned oath of the crown paladins warrant mention in games that are going to spend much time at levels 9 and above. And it's not like they're bad before that, they're still paladins after all. A vuman sword & board crown paladin who picks up sentinel with their bonus feat is going to be quite effective in a survival/mitigation role right from level one.

    These probably aren't the outright best options, so maybe don't need in depth exploration in this kind of article, but at the same time the article goes out of its way to say that 'no other class in the game' can function well in a tanking type role apart from moon druids and zealot barbarians, and that's just not accurate at all. Several barbarian and fighter subclasses can manage just fine, as can /any/ paladin, and even some off beat options like abjuration wizards.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Guide: The Best Subclasses For Party Roles After Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything

    Quote Originally Posted by Doccit View Post
    I, personally, would not want to build a character that was not very good in at least two of these roles, and it is totally possible to build characters who do.
    Me either. That's why I cast some dubious glances at most optimization threads. Each party member has to overlap with at least one other.
    I don't think 5th edition dungeons and dragons is built with too much attention to party roles in your sense of the word - at least to nowhere near the same extent that 4th edition was.
    Indeed, that model was IMO overly restrictive in concept (though I think it's fair to argue that it was rational) in pursuit of play balance and mechanical coherence.

    With that said, the basic shell of the game is this: Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, Rogue.
    Or more generically: Martial, Arcane Caster, Divine Caster (which roll includes "off tank" if you are familiar with League of Legend's role archetypes), Skill Monkey - striker. That covers all of the bases. But if we go to party optimization, I think that a five PC party is the best, so there's a "pick 'em" role that probably needs to fit the campaign for a choice. If I had to create a "best" party right now, here's my line up:
    4 PCs: Paladin (Ancients or Watcher), Wizard(any), Life or Twilight Cleric, Rogue(AT)
    5 PCs: Paladin(Vengeance), Ranger(Gloom Stalker), Monk(Many fine choices), Wizard(any), Knowledge Cleric. Note that either the Ranger or Monk needs to take Criminal Background and Thieves Tools. Knowledge cleric handles many other skill niches and gaps.

    Why do I pick a paladin as my martial? Because I don't believe the campaign will get to 20, that third attack won't be missed during Tier 3 Play, and the aura is a great team resource.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2021-01-11 at 09:00 AM.
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    Default Re: Guide: The Best Subclasses For Party Roles After Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything

    Quote Originally Posted by Gignere View Post
    Well the number of times sentinel procs depends a bit on party make up, if you have at least one other melee without sentinel you can expect it to proc at least once if not more than once per encounter.

    My current AT isn’t high enough for sentinel yet but I would had many opportunities to use it because I’m always in melee with the hexadin. If your DM isn’t out to counter sentinel there is no reason for most mobs not to attack the hexadin/other melee at least a few times.

    Another nova AT can do is with haste instead of mirror image + sentinel. They can sneak attack with haste attack and ready an action and attack on another turn for another sneak attack. So more than one ways for the AT to nova.
    So I looked into the Sentinel/Mirror image thing and it definitely works - so cool! However that haste combo you mention surely does not work - the hasted action has to be one weapon attack/Dash/Disengage/Hide/Use an Object action, and 'ready an action' is a distinct action which is none of those. Technicality, but hey. Anyway, I'll update my talk about the AT to include the mirror image tactic, the general utility of sentinel for a rogue, and mention sentinel/warcaster/mirror image. Thanks so much for pointing it out!

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    I think you're still missing things about the Evoker (it's one of the classes with the biggest gaps between optimization floor and ceiling)
    [...]
    It's honestly difficult for anyone to compete with optimally-played Simulacrum-using blasters at level 13+, even if your wallet's tight.
    [...]
    Another thing I think you may be underestimating is how effective they can be before level 11.
    [...]
    Consider that we have an entire guide on this forum written by a guy arguing why they're the best blaster specifically when Magic Missile is banned. I don't necessarily agree with everything that poster says, but it's a big mistake to think that the Hexvoker is MM+EE+HC, rather than MM+EE+HC being but one tool in their giant Batman toolbelt. And even when you are using MM+EE+HC, it should often be used simultaneously with other tools. One of the best things about them is their ability to efficiently expand their action economy in a variety of ways, you should be using that.
    [...]
    For example[...]You can say that any of those things are situational but you have so many of them that there's just about always a few for the situation you're in.
    These are all very good points - would you mind linking me to that guide by the way? I'm having a hard time finding it based on your description.

    As an aside, while I was looking I did find your post about the Nuclear Wizard. Did you know I am the person who coined the term nuclear wizard in that poorly done reddit thread you mentioned? Small world! You've clearly put a lot more thought into how to optimize this than I ever have.

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    That's an improvement, but why would we be talking about something like Cavalier when Rune Knights exist? Not to mention Eldritch Knights, Conquest Paladins, Redemption Paladins, Ancients Paladins, heck just "optimized tank Paladins in general," Arcana Clerics, Tasha-enhanced Life Clerics, Peace Abjurers, Retvokers, Sorcadins, Bardblades, and more?

    There's very strong competition for the Ancestral Guardian out there that seems to have gone unaddressed. Competition that I daresay is better than the Cavalier.

    I think the issue may be less that tanks in 5e are bad, so much as that you might not have seen a lot of different kinds of optimized interdiction tanks played. Am I wrong?
    No - you are very much right. For several of the classes you've mentioned, it was not obvious to me at all what these classes have that allows them to cut the damage that party members other than themselves are taking, and for several others the abilities seem lacklustre. Sorry to be making work for you, and if I'm on my own for the research here that's fine - but do you have links to posts/guides about the relevant synergies and tactics here, or even just brief descriptions of them?

    I should note here that this is really a guide about subclasses, and while I'm willing to include dips of a few levels, deep multiclassing is beyond the scope of what I'm trying to do here. If Peace Abjurers, Retvokers, Sorcadins, Bardblades just involve dips that's fine, but it is like 5 one 15 the other I'd prefer to omit it.
    Last edited by Doccit; 2021-01-11 at 09:25 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doccit View Post
    So I looked into the Sentinel/Mirror image thing and it definitely works - so cool! However that haste combo you mention surely does not work - the hasted action has to be one weapon attack/Dash/Disengage/Hide/Use an Object action, and 'ready an action' is a distinct action which is none of those. Technicality, but hey. Anyway, I'll update my talk about the AT to include the mirror image tactic, the general utility of sentinel for a rogue, and mention sentinel/warcaster/mirror image. Thanks so much for pointing it out!
    Haste works you are thinking of the order wrong you use the extra hasted action to sneak attack on your turn. You use your normal attack action to ready an attack on someone else’s turn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doccit View Post
    No - you are very much right. For several of the classes you've mentioned, it was not obvious to me at all what these classes have that allows them to cut the damage that party members other than themselves are taking, and for several others the abilities seem lacklustre. Sorry to be making work for you, and if I'm on my own for the research here that's fine - but do you have links to posts/guides about the relevant synergies and tactics here, or even just brief descriptions of them?

    I should note here that this is really a guide about subclasses, and while I'm willing to include dips of a few levels, deep multiclassing is beyond the scope of what I'm trying to do here. If Peace Abjurers, Retvokers, Sorcadins, Bardblades just involve dips that's fine, but it is like 5 one 15 the other I'd prefer to omit it.
    Sure.

    I have an old post here about the general spirit of tanking in 5e.

    Getting hit is not so much the goal of the tank, so much as a thing that often occurs when you are successfully tanking. A tank's goal is to ruin an enemy's decision tree, put them in "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenarios. This is why, for example, Booming Blade + Warcaster is often considered a tanking ability: It doesn't literally force an enemy to stand still and attack you, but the cost of wandering off to attack someone else is sufficiently high that it offsets any benefit they'd get from hitting a squishier team member. Same as how an Ancestral Guardian doesn't actually force the enemy to attack them; they just turn "stop attacking me" into a non-winning situation on the decision tree.

    In the Eclectic Builds thread I have a few examples of this kind of tank; the Arcana Cleric build and the Eldritch Knight one.

    The Arcana Cleric, for example, can redirect attacks to themselves because (among other things):
    - Moving away from them does more damage than some characters' entire turns.
    - Staying still and firing ranged attacks confers Disadvantage.
    - Spell effects on allies can be efficiently removed with Spell Breaker, often conferring a tempo advantage ("Hi, I have a bonus action party-wide heal+Dispel Magic").
    - You have a bunch of good control spells like Spirit Guardians.
    - You have spells that reduce or reverse damage to allies.
    - You have spells that can prevent or remove status effects, even including the "dead" status effect.

    Basically as long as enemies don't deal with you, allies aren't going to go down.

    I mentioned Rune Knight, and we can see a whole lot they can do:
    - Grapple + Prone tactics are boosted considerably by Giant's Might. Barbarians aren't as good in this department because they don't have as many attacks, don't grow in size, nothin'.
    - Runic Shield is really efficient since it can target anyone in the party, has a good number of uses, and forces a reroll after seeing the roll.
    - They can fill bigger chokepoints and are harder to move around due to Giant's Might.
    - Things like Storm Rune, Fire Rune, Stone Rune, and Cloud Rune all reduce damage to allies.
    - They hit like trucks (yes, this too is relevant to reducing damage to allies. The shorter enemies live, the less damage they do. Also, being a big existential threat on the field that enemies want to spend their CC on is another way of helping redirect damage away from allies).

    A Peace Abjurer would just be something like a Mark of Warding Dwarf Peace Cleric 1 / Abjurer X. A Bardblade would just be something like a Hexblade 1 / Bard X. Sorcadins would be a 'deep multiclass' via your definition.
    Last edited by LudicSavant; 2021-01-11 at 11:46 AM.
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    For further examples of tanking builds and tactics, check out:

    the Wall of Fear: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?543427

    An extended threat discussing the Conquest Paladin. Again, I wouldn't suggest Conquest as 'the best' in its role, there are too many enemies out there that are highly resistant (via high wisdom saves or spell resistant) or outright immune to frighten to call Conquest Paladins top tier tanks, even if they are reasonably competent and very fun & unique, but it is a good showcase example of a 5e tanking build without a bespoke aggro mechanic.


    Treantmonk's Echo Knight video: https://youtu.be/swI9tWwi7l0

    A video that goes into the abilities of the echo knight fighter subclass from Wildemount in considerable depth, including some battle map examples of the kind of lock down control over a single strong enemy that an Echo Knight can impose when combined with the Sentinel feat, largely without putting even their own HP at risk, which makes them incredibly effective as a control tank in an interdiction/mitigation role, on top of being able to deal respectable damage and have a ton of great utility options in non-combat situations, particularly compared to other fighters which mechanically tend to be pretty exclusively focused on combat abilities. The result is another highly effective tank type character without explicit aggro-generating class or subclass features.



    But if you're looking for general tanking tactics for generating aggro, options include:

    Concentration on a spell or effect that makes victory difficult or impossible for the enemy team. This can be as simple as a Bless or more elaborate options like Spirit Guardians or aura of vitality or even stuff like Wall of Force on a more off type wizard style tanks.

    Aura of Protection. This one's paladin specific, but if you're putting out up to +5 to all saves for yourself & nearby allies, that's going to render a lot of otherwise quite dangerous threats somewhat trivial, and those threats are going to direct their more straight forward brute thugs to get rid of you first if they can. Combine with concentration spells like Bless or Aura of Vitality or Spirit Guardians (if you're part of the Orzhov guild in Ravnica, or playing Oath of the Crown, or multiclassed out into 5+ levels of Divine Soul Sorcerer after picking up Aura of Protection) or the like to create situations where the enemy *HAS* to deal with you first or they simply won't be defeating the party at all.

    Opportunity Attacks. Sure, you only get one reaction a turn, and this doesn't stricktly prevent enemies from just walking away from you and eating the attack in order to attack a squishier ally, and some enemies have special abilities that functionally make them immune to these in the first place. But a lot of enemies don't, and if you're a character who hits hard enough - say a GWM fighter or barbarian, or a paladin who reserves spell slots to threaten especially damaging opportunity attacks, those enemies can be convinced not to just walk away and target someone else.

    Sentinel. Again, you only get one reaction a turn, but with this feat that reaction can outright prevent an enemy from walking away from you to target one of your allies, or can give you a nice big hit to punish an enemy who attacks one of your allies without walking away from you. There are plenty of enemies that just aren't going to want to provoke any of that in the first place. Sentinel by itself makes many high AC, high HP, high melee damage bruisers - whether we're talking barbarians, fighters, paladins, or the like - into effective tanks capable of holding the attention of one or more dangerous enemies per combat without even having to expend limited per rest resources to do so. Sentinel also stacks particularly well with a number of other options, from the Polearm Master feat to subclasses like the Echo Knight above.

    War Caster + Booming Blade. War Caster - in addition to granting advantage on concentration saves and letting you handle a weapon & shield while still casting somatic spells, two abilities very relevant to any spellcasting tank build - lets you cast a single target spell in place of making a normal opportunity attack. Again, only one reaction per turn, but when combined with booming blade an enemy that just walks away from you to target your allies risks taking so much damage that the benefits of doing so are largely lost. Paladins who pick up booming blade via a multiclass (as little as one level of hexblade, which is a stupidly good multiclass dip for paladins already), can threaten smite damage on top of the extra booming blade hit damage and even more damage if the target follows through on their intent to move away from you. All in all, not quite as effective a tanking tool as sentinel, but the feat does come with two other very solid benefits for spellcasting tanks.

    War Caster without Booming Blade. Even if you don't have booming blade, replacing an opportunity attack with a Command spell to 'Grovel' can cause weak willed enemies to lose their entire turns if they try to move away from you to attack someone else, potentially losing even the ability to sit still and attack you instead.

    Threats and Role Play - hard to qualify this one as it isn't an overt mechanic, but belligerent threats to attack anyone who attacks your friends, combined with saving strong attacks to do just that, can be effective if your DM is willing to play along. Again, my primary experience is with paladins, but if I reserve limited smites for opportunity attacks or attacks against enemies that previously hit my allies, you end up conditioning the DM to have enemies take your threats seriously.

    Interception Fighting Style - new in Tasha's, this is basically a better, functional version of the Protection Style. Not amazing, and competes for reaction options (it's nice to combo with the threat of opportunity attacks, but once you have Sentinel that's just better), but it works and is a nice option to have, particularly at low levels.

    Warding Bond - for Clerical Tanks, Crown Paladins, or, as of Tasha's, any paladins. A very nice spell for mitigating hp damage to a particularly vulnerable party member. Best used in conjunction with a party member who has low HP but decent AC otherwise, but regardless it effectively forces any attacks on your most vulnerable party member to be split 50/50 with you, who should be your party's least vulnerable party member if you're trying to tank. Breaking up enemy damage output this way is very effective in making limited hp resources last longer, makes it harder to bring that party member down in a fight, and makes group healing bonuses after the fight more effective. The spell lasts an hour, grants the target a minor bonus to AC & saves, & doesn't require concentration, so yeah, an effective option, very nice to see added to paladins generally. Particularly effective in parties where most of the party members have strong defensive options of their own, and only one character really needs the help staying up. Which I find is not a terribly uncommon situation.

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    I feel your Damage Mitigation section should call out concentration and make this a differentiating factor between the candidates. Having Temp HP does mitigate damage, but not the 5th level spell slot that was lost because the wizard got hit. Mitigating this damage is very hard in 5e, as you pointed out in the Ancestral Guardian section. There are a handful of abilities that stop/reduce the chances of damage from being taken, abjurer's force field, imposing disadvantage on an attack on an adjacent ally, and the new cleric from Tasha's. As builds compete in the arms race of bestest there is more competition for a character's concentration slot, just like attunement slots are turning into taxes. Thus handing out Temp HP simply gives the party more buffer room for select characters to take more damage, but this does not help the wizard. Sometimes his biggest contribution to battle is to take the dodge action. A defender in 4e had ways of protecting their allies, but 5e we have to scramble for it. We don't have aggro, and only one opportunity attack, thus our stickiness is very limited. Damage mitigation is a good measurable goal rather than "defending" and more closely aligns with preventing concentration loss, but I feel you should call it out and which builds are better at this important goal.

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    Default Re: Guide: The Best Subclasses For Party Roles After Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything

    I'd like to offer a superior option to best damage support: Divine Soul Sorcerer.
    You outlined Dissonant Whispers, but Command is better. Command can be upcast to 2nd level to target another person, costing the same as metamagicing Dissonant Whipsers, but 2nd level Command can be quickened with the cantrip you cast being twinned, like Mind Sliver or Poison Spray or Frostbite.

    Also to correct one point about provoking the opportunity attacks, you don't get up to 2 free attacks, but it depends on how many allies are bunched around your targets. If you have a druid with a bunch of velociraptors then you double the Druid's DPR for level 5-11 (obviously not when the druid has to resort to rotations on 24 raptors). Command is superior here also because you get an opportunity attack, but with Dissonant whispers you can't chip in because you can't take reactions on your own turn.

    Also Command makes the target use their action, but Dissonant whispers technically doesn't.

    While your build doesn't call out the other responsibilities of the healer role, the Divine Soul Sorcerer is also superb at this support job. Not only does Twinning break the mold for concentration, adding in the cleric spells makes a few of the healer's role so much better. Twin Lesser Restoration is great because it is common for these status effects to hit multiple party members. Twin Healing Word for when you have 2 frontline fighters that just got focus fired. I already mentioned Twin Command. Twin Guidance is cool. The very unlikely used Twin Raise Dead, but hey they technically can do it.

    Overall the Divine Soul Sorcerer is generally a better support than Abberant Mind, which leans heavily towards unfriendly long AOE spells like Evard's.
    Last edited by borg286; 2021-01-11 at 02:11 PM.

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    Default Re: Guide: The Best Subclasses For Party Roles After Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything

    For your controller section, consider enriching your ranking section by calling out that reducing monster turns is one main key factor. Levitate is amazing because it is effectivly a save-or-die spell but only with some conditions: they weigh less than 500 pounds, are effectively neutralized when left with only their ranged options and there aren't low ceilings they can climb on. Spells like Command trade your action for the chance to eliminate a monster's action, likely making them take opportunity attacks. Sleet Storm has a good chance of removing half the monsters from combat to be dealt with later. As you pointed out in the single-target section, focusing damage on one monster is better than spreading it out. On the same count, halving monster forces means your team can take out each surviving monster w/o taking much any damage and thus reduce resource drain. Minute long spells get to see their full effect when spread out over multiple rounds. Thus control is about reducing monster turns. The striker tries to do this through HP drain, but a controller's spells gets immediate return on investment, ie. the striker eliminated the last round from a monster being in battle, but a controller eliminated the first round from them. Eliminating the first round, is in my book, worth 2x as much as the last round. Sleet storm and evards black tentacles, make any round a monster gets free its only round in battle.

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    Well I have a lot of work cut out for me - I will edit this post with comments and updates as I get to the things that have been posted in the thread. First, the survivability section of the guide has been cut entirely. A few people (not just in this thread) confused the survivability category to be about tanking, which it was not, and given that survivability on its own as I defined it does not contribute to the success of the party meaningfully it was a bad fit for discussion in this guide as a role.

    I'm also continuing to think about grouping these roles into more conventional party roles. But I don't think I will - it seems to me the most coherent smaller categorizations for these roles would be "DPS" "Support" and "Non-combat utility", but I'm not sure how grouping my roles into these categories would really be helpful information.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gignere View Post
    Haste works you are thinking of the order wrong you use the extra hasted action to sneak attack on your turn. You use your normal attack action to ready an attack on someone else’s turn.
    You're completely right - my mistake! The AT section has been updated with the two very strong tactics that you've mentioned, and warcaster/sentinel's contribution to your at-will damage.

    EDIT 2: The comments here have made it abundantly clear to me that the damage mitigation section needs a lot of work and thought, to give due consideration to tanking builds. I will get to that later because it is a very large undertaking. Thanks to LudicSavant, Malisteen, ProsecutorGodot, borg286, for their help and insightful commentary on this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by borg286 View Post
    For your controller section, consider enriching your ranking section by calling out that reducing monster turns is one main key factor. [...] As you pointed out in the single-target section, focusing damage on one monster is better than spreading it out. On the same count, halving monster forces means your team can take out each surviving monster w/o taking much any damage and thus reduce resource drain. Minute long spells get to see their full effect when spread out over multiple rounds. Thus control is about reducing monster turns. The striker tries to do this through HP drain, but a controller's spells gets immediate return on investment, ie. the striker eliminated the last round from a monster being in battle, but a controller eliminated the first round from them. Eliminating the first round, is in my book, worth 2x as much as the last round. Sleet storm and evards black tentacles, make any round a monster gets free its only round in battle.
    This is really excellently put. I agree completely. I've updated my discussion of how controllers are being evaluated in light of this, and I'll soon update my evaluation of individuals to emphasize these criteria (and mention the spells you called out specifically where they are not already mentioned).

    EDIT 3:
    Quote Originally Posted by borg286 View Post
    I'd like to offer a superior option to best damage support: Divine Soul Sorcerer.
    You outlined Dissonant Whispers, but Command is better. Command can be upcast to 2nd level to target another person, costing the same as metamagicing Dissonant Whipsers, but 2nd level Command can be quickened with the cantrip you cast being twinned, like Mind Sliver or Poison Spray or Frostbite.

    Also to correct one point about provoking the opportunity attacks, you don't get up to 2 free attacks, but it depends on how many allies are bunched around your targets. If you have a druid with a bunch of velociraptors then you double the Druid's DPR for level 5-11 (obviously not when the druid has to resort to rotations on 24 raptors). Command is superior here also because you get an opportunity attack, but with Dissonant whispers you can't chip in because you can't take reactions on your own turn.

    Also Command makes the target use their action, but Dissonant whispers technically doesn't.
    The command point is really interesting! Thanks for pointing out out! Unlike twinned dissonant whispers, it adds no damage, but as levels rise this becomes less and less relevant, and wasting the target's action is a huge advantage. But it is worth noting that regardless of which spell is better, aberrant mind can get both of them (command is an enchantment spell). I don't see anything that allows divine soul to make better use of the command spell than aberrant mind.

    For now, I'll add the command tactic to the aberrant mind discussion, and your excellent point about the possibility of more than 2 opportunity attacks form both of these spells. But I can't see anything the divine soul sorcerer can do better than the aberrant mind in terms of party damage support - aberrant mind is just as good of a command user if not better because they can upcast it in a way that is more sorcery-point efficient. In terms of the general overall power of the character, I'm totally open to the idea that DS is better (aberrant mind can't heal at all, whereas DS heals excellently, as you point out), but in the category of party damage support specifically aberrant mind seems to be the superior option.
    Last edited by Doccit; 2021-01-12 at 04:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doccit View Post
    The command point is really interesting! Thanks for pointing out out! Unlike twinned dissonant whispers, it adds no damage, but as levels rise this becomes less and less relevant, and wasting the target's action is a huge advantage. But it is worth noting that regardless of which spell is better, aberrant mind can get both of them (command is an enchantment spell). I don't see anything that allows divine soul to make better use of the command spell than aberrant mind.

    For now, I'll add the command tactic to the aberrant mind discussion, and your excellent point about the possibility of more than 2 opportunity attacks form both of these spells. But I can't see anything the divine soul sorcerer can do better than the aberrant mind in terms of party damage support - aberrant mind is just as good of a command user if not better because they can upcast it in a way that is more sorcery-point efficient. In terms of the general overall power of the character, I'm totally open to the idea that DS is better (aberrant mind can't heal at all, whereas DS heals excellently, as you point out), but in the category of party damage support specifically aberrant mind seems to be the superior option.
    Command is not on the sorcerer, wizard or warlock spell list, and therefore can't be accessed by aberrant minds through their extra spells feature.

    The azorius functionary and Orzhov representative backgrounds from GGtR offer access to it with their feature of expanded spell lists.
    The feytouched feat can also be used for command, and is a decent half feat for a sorcerer. Depending on interpretation, magic initiate (cleric) could work.
    Last edited by WaroftheCrans; 2021-01-15 at 01:54 PM.

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    After studying the Aberrant Mind https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...1#post24890101 I've come to the conclusion that Dissonant Whispers is the more damaging option when using the Sorcerer's Twin Metamagic, and ability to contribute with Booming Blade or Eldritch Blast.
    Regarding the superiority of Command over Dissonant whispers, Command is more controlling and healing while Dissonant whispers opens the possibility to run elsewhere.

    I'm curious if you feel my build exhibits how an aberrant mind is a capable runner up for most categories.
    Last edited by borg286; 2021-01-18 at 10:07 PM.

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    Default Re: Guide: The Best Subclasses For Party Roles After Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything

    The aberrant mind sorcerer can cast Twinned Dissonant Whispers for 2 Sorcery points, not 3.

    I would however argue that spending a level 2 slot of Command is more effective than converting the spell slot into a Twinned Dissonant Whispers.

    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    Tempest Cleric isn't the best blaster. It's possibly not even the best blaster Cleric.
    Tempest Cleric is maybe the best blaster at levels 2-4, but it has no business being in the Best Blaster category overall. Fireball users just leave it in the dust.

    Quote Originally Posted by borg286 View Post
    Command is superior here also because you get an opportunity attack, but with Dissonant whispers you can't chip in because you can't take reactions on your own turn.
    You can absolutely take reactions on your own turn.
    Last edited by Merudo; 2021-02-26 at 03:45 AM.

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    Glamour bard is categorically wrong. I'm glad to see them mentioned, but if you can believe it, the temp HP is the secondary effect of mantle. The primary ability is moving your teammates.

    This makes the glamour bard the best AOE CC caster.

    The glamour bard is basically the CC version of an evocation wizard, able to cast their massive CC spells without friendly fire, because teammates can move out of the AOE for free.

    Even with eloquence reducing saves, they still can't cast hypnotic pattern in the midst of a fight without risking friendly fire.


    Also, in CC grapplers should be mentioned. Grapple and trip is extremely easy to land and circumvents legendary resistance. Literally dragging enemies through hazards, away from teammates, and off cliffs is good crowd control.

    Depending on how you want to categorize, you could put all these builds as tanks instead. Grapple is a great way to force the enemy to deal with you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LudicSavant View Post
    I mentioned Rune Knight, and we can see a whole lot they can do:
    - Grapple + Prone tactics are boosted considerably by Giant's Might. Barbarians aren't as good in this department because they don't have as many attacks, don't grow in size, nothin'.
    - Runic Shield is really efficient since it can target anyone in the party, has a good number of uses, and forces a reroll after seeing the roll.
    - They can fill bigger chokepoints and are harder to move around due to Giant's Might.
    - Things like Storm Rune, Fire Rune, Stone Rune, and Cloud Rune all reduce damage to allies.
    - They hit like trucks (yes, this too is relevant to reducing damage to allies. The shorter enemies live, the less damage they do. Also, being a big existential threat on the field that enemies want to spend their CC on is another way of helping redirect damage away from allies).
    The first thing I did was Ctrl+F and search Rune Knight; and I found the lack of mentions anywhere disturbing. Do people seriously undervalue this subclass to this degree? Damage is comparable to a Battlemaster (at least until level 11), has incredible utility, becomes very durable at level 7 and storm rune can be used in social interactions without the victim realizing what the hell is even going on, unlike any non-subtle spells. The various skill advantages from runes turn the Fighter chassis into a situational skill monkey; one can even grant superior darkvision! Even better, Giant's Might is multiclass-friendly, as its use limit is based on proficiency; not to mention it is the best chassis for a grappler, hands-down. One doesn't even need caster levels for a size buff anymore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Granitecosmos View Post
    The first thing I did was Ctrl+F and search Rune Knight; and I found the lack of mentions anywhere disturbing. Do people seriously undervalue this subclass to this degree? Damage is comparable to a Battlemaster (at least until level 11), has incredible utility, becomes very durable at level 7 and storm rune can be used in social interactions without the victim realizing what the hell is even going on, unlike any non-subtle spells. The various skill advantages from runes turn the Fighter chassis into a situational skill monkey; one can even grant superior darkvision! Even better, Giant's Might is multiclass-friendly, as its use limit is based on proficiency; not to mention it is the best chassis for a grappler, hands-down. One doesn't even need caster levels for a size buff anymore.
    Rune Knight is reasonably versatile, and excellent for a martial starting at level 7.

    I'm curious though, which role(s) you think the Rune Knight does better than other classes? Do you think it is better at control than the Eloquence Bard or Enchanter? Better at utility than Order of Scribes / Circle of Wildfire? Better at single target damage than Samurai Fighter or Shephard Druid?

  27. - Top - End - #57
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Guide: The Best Subclasses For Party Roles After Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything

    With the Utility/Support powerhouses that they are, I'm amazed none of the Artificer subclasses made it on any of the lists, not even honorable mentions.

    Imo, they're the best at Utility, they can be amazing damage support, and they can also be wonderful at damage output. I figure they're not at least an honorable mention somewhere because they're relatively new a lot of the capacity of their abilites has yet to be explored
    "I may be a Hobgoblin, but the real mythical creature I'm playing is an Ethical Billionaire"

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