Combat wheelchairs

[HolyDraconus]

A simple question, but what does everyone think about the rules? Has anyone seen them? Is this the next season of adventure league? Thoughts?

[micahaphone]

Sorry, I've only seen the npc in critical role using one. Is there some hints that rules for combat wheelchairs are coming out?

[Rfkannen]

I really like them! the rules seem good, the concept is fantastic! I allow it at my table!

Spoiler: i was wrong ignore this

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My one problem with it is that as far as I can tell (and I haven't done much research about it) wotc has clearly benefited from the talk around them, and it would be nice if they hired the creator as a disability consultant or put the rules on dndbeyond or something like that as a show of gratitude. They obviously don't need to, but it would be nice!

But yeah, awesome idea, well implemented, overall I give it an A+!


(edit- just realised they already work for the company that makes cyberpunk, so wotc probably gave an offer and she said no, so disregard that part of my post!)

[samcifer]

Ooh! Be an artificer tortle named Bentley so you can be the tech expert from Sly Cooper 3.

[jaappleton]

I don’t know the creator on any sort of personal level, but I follow her on Twitter.

Just to keep everything on the straight and narrow; Although CR did a lot to help popularize it and bring attention to it, CR / Mercer didn’t create the combat wheelchair. The creator is Sara Thompson, or @mustangart on Twitter.

The creator is herself disabled, and works incredibly hard as a consultant for various media on the subject.

Additionally, io9 also has worked with her in designing miniatures for disabled adventurers.

D&D is for everybody.

[MaxWilson]

A simple question, but what does everyone think about the rules? Has anyone seen them? Is this the next season of adventure league? Thoughts?

My thoughts on the rules, in order:

I wish they weren't gated behind a paywall.

I don't want them badly enough to pay for them.

Are rules really needed? For a self-propelled wheelchair, you could just use the existing mounted combat rules.

[Rule-Of-Three]

My thoughts on the rules, in order:

I wish they weren't gated behind a paywall.

I don't want them badly enough to pay for them.

Seconded. In fact I find it curious that a gesture of inclusivity in our hobby and community is behind a paywall at all. I support the measure actually as broadening our community in appeal for those players that really want to see it, and am baffled why it isn't given maximum access.

[Zhorn]

I wish they weren't gated behind a paywall.

They have a tweet with a link to WIP files that can be viewed for free
https://twitter.com/mustangsart/stat...36011438366723
I won't link to the file directly in case they decide to take this down, but through here you can see their work via info they have made openly accessible.

Are rules really needed? For a self-propelled wheelchair, you could just use the existing mounted combat rules.

Be very wary about critiquing this creators work. They have a tendency of not being open to it and with a very broad brush painting anyone who doesn't 100% agree with their designs as online harassers and ableist bigots. They are a lovely and personable individual, so long as your opinions and beliefs are matching their own.
I appreciate the amount of work they are putting in to making representation possible for folks wanting to have a character reflect such things in game, but from a design perspective I think their homebrew needs more fine tuning.

Seconded. In fact I find it curious that a gesture of inclusivity in our hobby and community is behind a paywall at all. I support the measure actually as broadening our community in appeal for those players that really want to see it, and am baffled why it isn't given maximum access.

Part of this comes down to the designer (Sara Thompson, @mustangart) trying to make a career out of being a disability consultant for rpgs. Doing work for free can make paying bills a bit tricky.
I'm sure their heart's in the right place, but there are financial motivations to be considered also.

[MaxWilson]

Seconded. In fact I find it curious that a gesture of inclusivity in our hobby and community is behind a paywall at all. I support the measure actually as broadening our community in appeal for those players that really want to see it, and am baffled why it isn't given maximum access.

I think I found a non-paywall version from the author: https://drive.google.com/folderview?...0WX5tV-Ch_t_N_

My reaction after reading them: ugh, the balance is terrible. (No pun intended.) It's not broken per se, it doesn't make the game unplayable like Wish (Simulacrum) or Healing Spirit v1, but there are too many benefits and not enough justifications for them nor costs. (E.g. getting a d6+2+d4+DEX/STR Finesse weapon that you're auto-proficient in is clearly above the normal curve for Dex weapons--if this is possible, why don't other Dexy fighters use them already? And how about that Thunder Trip, eh? Bonus Thunderwave spells every day with no action cost?) It feels like homebrew designed to keep a specific player happy (a.k.a. DM's Girlfriend syndrome), which means it's not something I desire to import into a game without said player.

The combat wheelchair would be okayish in a gear-centric game like Shadowrun or GURPS. It's out of place in 5E unless you're already letting players invent their own gear like 2d10 heavy finesse weapons, enhanced caltrops that do 1d6 damage, AC 21 armor, full auto shotguns, etc.

Clearly I'm not the target audience for this homebrew.

Part of this comes down to the designer (Sara Thompson, @mustangart) trying to make a career out of being a disability consultant for rpgs. Doing work for free can make paying bills a bit tricky.
I'm sure their heart's in the right place, but their are financial motivations to be considered also.

It's a tough industry, period. There's not a lot of money in writing regular books, let alone TTRPG homebrew. I'm glad RPGs are my hobby, not my career. My sympathy to those whose livelihood depends on selling them. Best of luck to her and all the others.

Note: I do pay (via Patreon) for instruction on game design (the Alexandrian) but selling blog posts on game design theory and practice is still probably easier than selling homebrew that customers then have to persuade their DM to adopt (instead of inventing their own or ignoring it).

I.e., selling knowledge is easier than selling part of a gaming experience. At least knowledge is a whole product...

[Kvess]

I can only speak as an able-bodied DM who is open to running games with disabled and wheelchair-equipped heroes.

I really like the idea. I wouldn’t recommend the combat wheelchair as written, because it introduces a ton of mechanics, not all of which match the design principles of 5e (such as withstanding a number of critical hits before being repaired). My suggestion would be to have the chair be more narrative than mechanic — let the disabled character do whatever the race/class/feats can do, and you can let the player flavour their wheelchair climbing stairs as magic, gnomish engineering, or some other effect.

[Unoriginal]

So I don't want to come off as rude, but given that fully functional limb prosthetics are something that exist in D&D, wouldn't some kind of exoskeleton you wear on your lower body and that allows you to walk be both possible and preferred to wheelchairs for people in the combat business?

[AttilatheYeon]

A simple question, but what does everyone think about the rules? Has anyone seen them? Is this the next season of adventure league? Thoughts?

It sure doesn't sound like it would be. Is it an an official dnd supplement?

[Kvess]

So I don't want to come off as rude, but given that fully functional limb prosthetics are something that exist in D&D, wouldn't some kind of exoskeleton you wear on your lower body and that allows you to walk be both possible and preferred to wheelchairs for people in the combat business?

Someone cared enough to homebrew the Combat Wheelchair. Disabled people want to play disabled characters, see themselves in heroic archetypes, and be seen by other players. If there are disabled athletes who play rough, competitive sports in wheelchairs, why not fighters and barbarians?

[Draconi Redfir]

While personally I think bringing a wheelchair into combat or out adventuring in general would be too clunky and impractical, I'd never argue against it if someone wanted to do so. to each their own right?

I just don't think I'd go for it myself is all. Maybe if it was some kind over hovering / flying device, or a pair of mechanical legs. Would be hesitant to do anything magical though, considering you'd then be completely vulnerable in an anti-magic zone.

[Zhorn]

I really like the idea. I wouldn’t recommend the combat wheelchair as written, because it introduces a ton of mechanics, not all of which match the design principles of 5e (such as withstanding a number of critical hits before being repaired). My suggestion would be to have the chair be more narrative than mechanic — let the disabled character do whatever the race/class/feats can do, and you can let the player flavour their wheelchair climbing stairs as magic, gnomish engineering, or some other effect.

That's pretty close to my view of the matter.
As a concept I'm all for it, and as far as the author is concerned I appreciate the work and effort they have put into, but as they have it written I'm not going to touch it.

Pieces of it would be available to players to build out and develop, but not as an all encompassing "you just get all the things".
Want to have it grant bonus AC? sure thing, but you'll need to pay for it and it'll count as a form of armor within the existing framework. High AC is going to be metal with STR requirements.
Want to be able to wildshape with it? I'm all for that, but not if you think you can plate armor AC out of it. It'll be lightweight and made of non-metal to be of the same gearing expectations of druids.
Want it to levitate up stairs? We can do that, but it will be a magic item, with all the strings that come with it.
Want it to be a weapon? Yep, but you'll need the relevant proficiencies and it will follow the same design principles of the existing weapons.
Want to do fancy maneuvers with it? If you spend the relevant class levels and feats I'm all for it.

Again, all support for the idea and to players wanting to build out their character concepts in such a manner. Just don't think the version I've seen is ready or mechanically fine tuned enough yet.

It sure doesn't sound like it would be. Is it an an official dnd supplement?

Nope, just an independent homebrew getting some signal boosting from figures with a bigger following.

[Unoriginal]

Someone cared enough to homebrew the Combat Wheelchair. Disabled people want to play disabled characters, see themselves in heroic archetypes, and be seen by other players. If there are disabled athletes who play rough, competitive sports in wheelchairs, why not fighters and barbarians?

The thing is, disabled athletes in real life don't have access to fully functioning limb prosthetics or exoskeletons, and while I can't talk for them nor pretend to, I do know that generally people want the option that allows them to do the most with the less downsides if it's available. Furthermore, "is not able to walk but has a device allowing them to" doesn't make the character any less disabled than "is not able to walk but use a wheelchair".

If the answer to that is "the combat wheelchair is more easily available than other means", then fair.

[Kvess]

I'm not sure that's entirely thought through. Just because someone doesn't have full use of their legs doesn't mean they would want to hack them off and replace them with robot legs.

[Unoriginal]

I'm not sure that's entirely thought through. Just because someone doesn't have full use of their legs doesn't mean they would want to hack them off and replace them with robot legs.

Which is why I've been speaking of both prosthetic limbs and exoskeletons you wear.

[Warder]

I think the rules are great for games where a focus (or just the possibility, really) of creating a heroic fantasy version of yourself, or a hero with similiarities to yourself, is part of the appeal. It's not the sort of game I play or enjoy so I wouldn't use them, but I'm not the target audience either. For the people they're aimed at, I think they're good.

[CharonsHelper]

A simple question, but what does everyone think about the rules? Has anyone seen them? Is this the next season of adventure league? Thoughts?

It's not badwrongfun if your table wants to use it, but if someone in my game wanted to use one I wouldn't cater to making sure that it could work everywhere. I mean - dungeons don't generally have ramps everywhere.

I'm just not sure why something like Tenser's Floating Disc wouldn't be preferable anyway.

[HolyDraconus]

The reason i asked is because it looks like a real thing thats officially being supported. If it is, its possible that its the next AL thing too.

link to the dnd product page

[jaappleton]

The reason i asked is because it looks like a real thing thats officially being supported. If it is, its possible that its the next AL thing too.

Its not going to be officially supported. This one isn't, anyway.

D&D will never, ever buy someones product to use as their own. Would they work with the author in the future about creating an official one? Perhaps.

[Unoriginal]

The reason i asked is because it looks like a real thing thats officially being supported. If it is, its possible that its the next AL thing too.

link to the dnd product page

What parts of the linked pages make you think that the combat wheelchair homebrew is being officially supported? I haven't seen anything talking about it.

[Zhorn]

The reason i asked is because it looks like a real thing thats officially being supported. If it is, its possible that its the next AL thing too.

link to the dnd product page

Sorry if I'm just being a bit daft and cannot spot it, but where on those pages is a reference to the combat wheelchair or the author of it?

[HolyDraconus]

Woopa, wrong link. Here


https://www.polygon.com/platform/amp...air-accessible

[micahaphone]

Looking at the "draft" versions above, I'm utterly flummoxed by why this thing is so complicated. Why not just make a controlled mount, give it some cool movement features (deployable treads/prop-up legs/plow/etc) to get around in hostile environments, and call it good?

[Zhorn]

Woopa, wrong link. Here


https://www.polygon.com/platform/amp...air-accessible

Jennifer Kretchmer has made her adventure wheelchair accessible, which could be as simple as wide doors and ramps.
The article has no official links between Sara Thompson and WotC, they just segue into mentioning her work on the combat wheelchair after having talked about Jennifer's dungeon. Nothing conclusive.

[Unoriginal]

Woopa, wrong link. Here


https://www.polygon.com/platform/amp...air-accessible

This indicates that the Candlekeep buildings are wheelchair-accessible, not that the combat wheelchair rules will become official.

[KorvinStarmast]

Looking at the "draft" versions above, I'm utterly flummoxed by why this thing is so complicated. Why not just make a controlled mount, give it some cool movement features (deployable treads/prop-up legs/plow/etc) to get around in hostile environments, and call it good?

As with most homebrew, of all kinds, there is an easy trap to fall into which ends up with home brew that is badly designed due to wanting to shoehorn too many cool things into it. I read the Homebrewery document and added it to my list of "interesting idea, bad execution" pile of stuff from there.

My druid circle of flame attempt still needs another tweak, and I got some help with that from the playgrounders. It's tough to get it right: heck, look at some of the stuff in UA and in Tasha's.

[Zhorn]

I got some help with that from the playgrounders. It's tough to get it right: heck, look at some of the stuff in UA and in Tasha's.

Yes, it's hard even when you are actively taking constructive critiquing onboard. Imagine how tough it is when someone is actively hostile towards anyone who disagrees with them and brands them harassers and bigots? I don't doubt there may have been some disgusting folk out there, it is the internet after all, but from what I've seen from the types of comments the author has been referring to as a toxic ableist backlash, much of it has been fairly innocuous and pretty standard PEACH style feedback.