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  1. - Top - End - #151

    Default Re: Combat wheelchairs

    Quote Originally Posted by EggKookoo View Post
    The wheelchair needs to simultaneously be no better than being fully-abled and not appreciably worse. To me, that means the best way to handle it is narrative. You get around in dungeons in your wheelchair just like the rest of the party does on foot. How did you get that wheelchair up that small ridge? Athletics check = 18. Very nicely, thank you.
    I'm sympathetic to these goals, but I'm also a simulationist, and having stuff that doesn't actually matter bothers me and detracts from my fun, so I'd actually go for modeling a wheelchair as a kind of mount instead. If you want a self-propelled wheelchair I'll be happy to charge you seven years without love for one (you can buy it from a hag in your backstory, and if it gets destroyed you can buy another from her, in exchange for your seven happiest memories) and it can function as a Medium mount with 15' move that can nevertheless carry a Medium creature. Or you can pick a Large wheelchair with 50' move, or just use a regular saddle and a horse. (King Cho-Hag from the Belgariad comes to mind as a disabled person who did exactly that: spent almost his whole life in the saddle.)

    That is, I'd want the choice to play a disabled character to be significant, in a plausible way, while also being interesting enough that I personally would be tempted to play one for some concepts. There's a Str 6 Barbarian [Defensive Duelist, Skill Expert (Athletics), Bear Totem] which I rolled up once in discussion on 3d6-in-order and made into a withered old man of the "get off my lawn!" persuasion--I'd play that guy in an adventure as a wheelchair-bound grappler in an instant, because it fits his concept. (Further concept: the price he paid the hag is every happy memory of his parents, but he cheated her of her price because it turns out he was an urchin raised on the streets. Now the hag has a grudge against, and grudging admiration for, him, and if he ever needs another wheelchair she's likely to price-gouge him twice as hard.)

  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: Combat wheelchairs

    Quote Originally Posted by MadBear View Post
    To me this boils down in part to not understanding the community for which this is intended. We know already that some people who could gain their hearing back, refuse cochlear implants because they don't see being deaf as something to "cure". I watched an interesting documentary on exoskeleton legs, and more then a few of those interviewed stated quite plainly that they preferred their wheelchair and had 0 interest in the new technology. That might not make sense to many, but it doesn't have to. Especially when talking about ableism, I don't believe I really get a say in telling a person what the ideal fantasy character for them should be. It might include cool exoskeleton legs, a wheelchair, or maybe just playing a character that doesn't have the issue at all.

    So what this boils down to for me, is if you have a player who wants to be the charging barbarian, but in a wheelchair because that's the fantasy that's cool for them, then that's what is cool for them. You don't have to understand it, or identify with it yourself. It's not some agenda that you're being forced to adopt. It's just an option for someone who wants the character they're playing to represent them.

    And, no it shouldn't need to come with a bunch of drawbacks because that's "realistic", because that's not how we do that. It's adjacent to the reason that we don't force a person who wants to be a 5'1" character to take a penalty to their strength. If someone wants to play a short really strong character we let them, because that's fulfilling some role their interested in. If you have someone who wants to play the heroic knight in a wheelchair because that's the fantasy their going for, penalizing it is just an underhanded way of saying "yeah, I don't want you doing this, so I'm gonna make it basically not worth it to do that".

    One last thing. I feel like sometimes we get caught up in this idea of, "well, if I allow this one person to have this, I got to fit an entire industry of it into my world", and that's simply false. Maybe that character is the only person with that tech. Maybe they themselves made it, or they have a friend who made it, and that's the only person who knows how to build this. In that world, this becomes a tiny blip of an exception. I do that kinda stuff all the time with my players. I'm not a huge fan of the UA ranger who shape shifts into a tree, but I'm letting my player, play that class, and their loving it. It doesn't mean, my world my now contain a bunch of other rangers who can also do this. He's the exception. Their's 1 ranger in my entire world who dedicated themselves to the forest to such a degree that they can become a tree and it's him.
    Much of what you discussed can more easily and efficiently be handled narratively. Just describe them as being in a wheelchair, but mechanically everything works the same. There is no mechanical difference between being 5' tall or 7' tall. Many of the complaints here seem to be that this was instead made far more difficult by giving mechanical rules, including making the chair better than normal characters.

    Also, the listed chairs are given an in-world story of being common enough to be found easily in any city. So the author seems to be directly working against such stories as you suggest.

  3. - Top - End - #153

    Default Re: Combat wheelchairs

    Quote Originally Posted by Mellack View Post
    Much of what you discussed can more easily and efficiently be handled narratively. Just describe them as being in a wheelchair, but mechanically everything works the same. There is no mechanical difference between being 5' tall or 7' tall.
    Well, there is actually. From the jumping rules:

    High Jump. When you make a high jump, you leap into the air a number of feet equal to 3 + your Strength modifier if you move at least 10 feet on foot immediately before the jump. When you make a standing high jump, you can jump only half that distance. Either way, each foot you clear on the jump costs a foot of movement. In some circumstances, your GM might allow you to make a Strength (Athletics) check to jump higher than you normally can.

    You can extend your arms half your height above yourself during the jump. Thus, you can reach above you a distance equal to the height of the jump plus 1 ˝ times your height.


    Being 7' tall gives you an extra 3' of vertical reach.

    Being in a wheelchair should logically prevent you from jumping.

  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: Combat wheelchairs

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Well, there is actually. From the jumping rules:

    High Jump. When you make a high jump, you leap into the air a number of feet equal to 3 + your Strength modifier if you move at least 10 feet on foot immediately before the jump. When you make a standing high jump, you can jump only half that distance. Either way, each foot you clear on the jump costs a foot of movement. In some circumstances, your GM might allow you to make a Strength (Athletics) check to jump higher than you normally can.

    You can extend your arms half your height above yourself during the jump. Thus, you can reach above you a distance equal to the height of the jump plus 1 ˝ times your height.


    Being 7' tall gives you an extra 3' of vertical reach.

    Being in a wheelchair should logically prevent you from jumping.
    While I was mostly correct, you are technically correct. The very best kind or correct. :)

  5. - Top - End - #155
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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Combat wheelchairs

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post

    Being in a wheelchair should logically prevent you from jumping.
    Considering the creator has images drawn of the wheelchair jumping, I think even that isn't true.
    Last edited by WaroftheCrans; 2021-01-19 at 03:12 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #156

    Default Re: Combat wheelchairs

    Quote Originally Posted by WaroftheCrans View Post
    Considering the creator has images drawn of the wheelchair jumping, I think even that isn't true.
    Unless the homebrew in question is illogical. :-)

  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Default Re: Combat wheelchairs

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    That is, I'd want the choice to play a disabled character to be significant, in a plausible way, while also being interesting enough that I personally would be tempted to play one for some concepts.
    If it actually came up at my table I'd almost certainly play with the concept. If nothing else, the narrative impact of the wheelchair would be huge. It would shape a lot of how NPCs view and interact with the rider.

  8. - Top - End - #158
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    Default Re: Combat wheelchairs

    Quote Originally Posted by WaroftheCrans View Post
    Considering the creator has images drawn of the wheelchair jumping, I think even that isn't true.
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Unless the homebrew in question is illogical. :-)
    Yeah - if the creator is claiming that a WHEELchair is jumping effectively and hasn't written any sort of magical or some sort of viable in-setting explanation - I confirm that that's a pretty silly homebrew.
    Last edited by CharonsHelper; 2021-01-19 at 03:57 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #159
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    Default Re: Combat wheelchairs

    SMH y'all have never seen what a talented gnome can do with springs.
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  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Default Re: Combat wheelchairs

    Quote Originally Posted by EggKookoo View Post
    If it actually came up at my table I'd almost certainly play with the concept. If nothing else, the narrative impact of the wheelchair would be huge. It would shape a lot of how NPCs view and interact with the rider.
    A flying teapot, a wheelchair riding drow and a bone horror goes to town.
    Which one gathers the most reactions?
    Probably not the wheelchair riding drow.
    (Of course it is the druid which is a swarm of spiders that bursts into more spiders and webs people and kill them by filling them with spiders(extensive re-fluffing: everything is re-fluffed to spiders): they never went to town because they dislike towns but despite that they got more reactions)
    Last edited by noob; 2021-01-19 at 04:03 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #161
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    Default Re: Combat wheelchairs

    Quote Originally Posted by micahaphone View Post
    SMH y'all have never seen what a talented gnome can do with springs.
    I wonder if we can pre emptively ask that any gifs and pictures posted subsequent to this post be screened as Safe For Work.
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  12. - Top - End - #162
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    Default Re: Combat wheelchairs

    can't say i've seen most of the "jumping wheelchair" images, but you sure they aren't just ramping off of something? Saw one that strongly implies the character was using a rock-wall as a halfpipe skateboard-style to ramp up and into the air.
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  13. - Top - End - #163
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    Default Re: Combat wheelchairs

    Quote Originally Posted by Vulryn View Post
    And yet, small races are making attacks using heavy weapons with disadvantage, according to the players handbook. One might come to the conclusion that folks are getting quite selective with the concept of what is realistic. Just saying.
    I forgot about that being the general rule. We did away with it at our table, because all it does it limit the kinds of characters players can make.

    edit: More specifically, we had a player who wanted to be a halfling barbarian who wielded a great axe, and we agreed that it was silly to stop that.
    Last edited by MadBear; 2021-01-19 at 04:27 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #164
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    Default Re: Combat wheelchairs

    Quote Originally Posted by WaroftheCrans View Post
    Considering the creator has images drawn of the wheelchair jumping, I think even that isn't true.
    Are you referring to a comic drawn by Luke McKay to promote Idle Champions?

    I mean, that looks dope, but I am not sure how seriously to take a series that had featured a swarm druid fighting beekeepers.
    Last edited by Kvess; 2021-01-19 at 04:33 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #165
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    Default Re: Combat wheelchairs

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    I wonder if we can pre emptively ask that any gifs and pictures posted subsequent to this post be screened as Safe For Work.
    Depends on where you work!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kvess View Post
    Are you referring to a comic drawn by Luke McKay to promote Idle Champions?

    I mean, that looks dope, but I am not sure how seriously to take a series that had featured a swarm druid fighting beekeepers.
    I am 100% down for X games + stabbing. This is why I always put extra description into my environments, just in case a player is struck with inspiration to be dumb and/or cool.
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  16. - Top - End - #166
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    Default Re: Combat wheelchairs

    Quote Originally Posted by Mellack View Post
    There is no mechanical difference between being 5' tall or 7' tall.
    I don't know, I remember a character not being killed after he mentioned to the GM (after he rolled damage) that his character is clearly stated on his sheet to be 4'9" and the trap that was supposed to shoot him in the head was described to be 5' high.
    It's Eberron, not ebberon.
    It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
    And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals break loose.

  17. - Top - End - #167

    Default Re: Combat wheelchairs

    Quote Originally Posted by CharonsHelper View Post
    Yeah - if the creator is claiming that a WHEELchair is jumping effectively and hasn't written any sort of magical or some sort of viable in-setting explanation - I confirm that that's a pretty silly homebrew.
    Come to think of it, to be completely fair, the RAW for jumping is also pretty illogical: an elephant can jump higher (9 feet) than a cat (zero feet). :)

  18. - Top - End - #168
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    Default Re: Combat wheelchairs

    Quote Originally Posted by JackPhoenix View Post
    I don't know, I remember a character not being killed after he mentioned to the GM (after he rolled damage) that his character is clearly stated on his sheet to be 4'9" and the trap that was supposed to shoot him in the head was described to be 5' high.
    *golf clap*

    The assertion(which you answered) that
    there is no mechanical difference between being 5' tall or 7' tall
    requires a suspension of disbelief a bit more robust than I am usually able to reach.
    (Someone else also noted the jumping rules ...)
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  19. - Top - End - #169
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    Default Re: Combat wheelchairs

    Quote Originally Posted by Unoriginal View Post
    So I don't want to come off as rude, but given that fully functional limb prosthetics are something that exist in D&D, wouldn't some kind of exoskeleton you wear on your lower body and that allows you to walk be both possible and preferred to wheelchairs for people in the combat business?
    That is a normative framework of what type of permutations of reality should be considered “normative”

    Disabled people are humans, they are people. Let them play with the fantastic. Some disabled people would do as you described, but others know that a normative framework can be dispiriting and disheartening. Figuring out alternatives such as a combat wheel chair is about reheartening the tender heart and reclaiming agency. To except there are many ways to live and how a normative ideal can be an illusion that makes some people miserable.

    Representation matters. We create mental models, we humans are mimetic creatures and recognizing there are many ways to succeed and how storytelling mimetics, storytelling imitations / acting is literally how children and adults play. Children’s play dolls all the time, it is how they help gain later skill sets. Now imagine a person in a wheelchair their entire life and they never had a doll of a person in a wheelchair. It is not just aesthetics, it is something more than that, that words find hard to articulate for it is not about description and narration, it is about showing and living as a subject not an object. Different part of brain not language but more visual more action.

    Last edited by Ramza00; 2021-01-19 at 05:49 PM.
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  20. - Top - End - #170
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    Default Re: Combat wheelchairs

    Also, am I the only one who's noticed that the heavily armored upgrade is essentially useless because you can only have 2, and the battering ram one is just vastly superior?

    Quote Originally Posted by Parting Ram
    A wedge-shaped ram has been affixed to the front of your chair, covering your lower
    legs. You can use this to knock down a target creature in combat. The parting ram works
    the same way as the Ram action in combat but the target creature must make a
    successful DC 15 Strength save or be knocked prone.
    Whilst in the chair with this Upgrade affixed, you also gain a +4 bonus to your Strength
    check when using the parting ram to break down doors. One other character can help
    you use the parting ram in this manner by pushing you and the chair to provide extra
    momentum (with your permission, of course), giving you advantage on the check.
    This Upgrade also provides half-cover to the chair's user as it covers the lower half of
    their body in much the same way a low wall would.
    Cost: 10gp (a standard portable ram is 4gp)
    Weight: 35 pounds (lbs)
    Quote Originally Posted by Half Cover
    A target with half cover has a +2 bonus to AC and Dexterity saving throws. A target has half cover if an obstacle blocks at least half of its body. The obstacle might be a low wall, a large piece of furniture, a narrow tree trunk, or a creature, whether that creature is an enemy or a friend.
    Quote Originally Posted by Armored Plates
    Small but heavy metal plates are attached to the frame of the Combat Wheelchair to better protect it and the user's lower body.
    This Upgrade increases the wheelchair's weight from 25 pounds (lbs) to 65 pounds (lbs).
    You gain a +2 to your AC whilst you are in the chair. When you are not in the chair, you no longer have this bonus. If this upgrade is removed, you no longer gain a +2 AC bonus whilst in the chair. Whilst this Upgrade is affixed to your chair, you also have disadvantage on Dexterity saving throws and Acrobatic and Stealth checks.
    Additionally, the number of Critical Hits your chair can withstand before needing repairs increases from 3 to 6.
    Cost: 550gp
    Weight: 40 pounds (lbs)
    Armoured Plates cannot be used with the Upgrade 'Agile Suspension' or 'Suppression Tyres'.
    So Parting ram has no restrictions, weighs less, costs considerably less, has no penalties, offers additional bonuses, and from it's half cover provides + 2 AC and +2 to Dex saving throws.

    Meanwhile the only thing Armored Plates has over it is that it can stack with half cover, and takes the chance of a chair being broken in combat from 20^-3 (1/8000) to 20^-6 (1/640000000) per attack targeting the chair, assuming no crit range expansion or advantage. The chair was already effectively invincible (which is really dumb), so this does nothing.

    Mounted sniper and Scattering tacks are entirely pointless (what's preventing you from just using caltrops or a light crossbow?) Additionally, the wheelchair explicitly counts as a mount, so that 25 foot movespeed is really 50 foot move speed with immunity to OA's.
    The upgrades of the chair aren't balanced at all against the rest of the game or against each other, and have varying levels of logic and verisimilitude breaking.

    Take the spider legs for instance: if you can make spider legs that can lift an entire wheelchair and its occupant and give it spider climb, you should reasonably be able to make a Doc Ock style backpack that weighs and costs less, and lasts for longer. But nope, this is wheelchair exclusive.

    And lets not even mention the effects of beacon stones on a setting.

    I have no problem with wheelchair bound characters in D&D, but this is just not the way to do it.

    Edit: Oh right, merely by owning this chair you have become proficient with tinker's tools. I wonder, if you sell the chair do you lose the proficiency?
    Last edited by WaroftheCrans; 2021-01-19 at 06:07 PM. Reason: Extra 0 removed

  21. - Top - End - #171

    Default Re: Combat wheelchairs

    Quote Originally Posted by WaroftheCrans View Post
    Also, am I the only one who's noticed that the heavily armored upgrade is essentially useless because you can only have 2, and the battering ram one is just vastly superior?
    Why wouldn't you take them both for +4 to AC?

  22. - Top - End - #172
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    Default Re: Combat wheelchairs

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Why wouldn't you take them both for +4 to AC?
    You could, but personally I'd take one that doesn't have an impetus to it. Maybe the free 2/day thunderwave. However, you can stack the platiing, a shield and the ram for +6 to AC, since gear works as normal for the character. Throw in warforged, defense fighting style, +3 modifiers to heavy armor and shield, the shield spell and a cloak of displacement and you got a 38 AC with the enemy having disadvantage. Jokes on monsters, they might as well attack your chair for all their chances of hitting you.

    The note at the end is that the shield doesn't protect the chair, which is of course useless, and a holdover from the less overpowered V1 that presumably had an AC and hit points.
    Last edited by WaroftheCrans; 2021-01-19 at 06:15 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #173
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Combat wheelchairs

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxWilson View Post
    Why wouldn't you take them both for +4 to AC?
    For having really good dexterity saving throws?

  24. - Top - End - #174

    Default Re: Combat wheelchairs

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    For having really good dexterity saving throws?
    Fair point, although +2 to Dex saves (half cover) and disadvantage on Dex saves come moderately close to cancelling each other out. But good point.

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    Default Re: Combat wheelchairs

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramza00 View Post
    That is a normative framework of what type of permutations of reality should be considered “normative”

    Disabled people are humans, they are people. Let them play with the fantastic. Some disabled people would do as you described, but others know that a normative framework can be dispiriting and disheartening. Figuring out alternatives such as a combat wheel chair is about reheartening the tender heart and reclaiming agency. To except there are many ways to live and how a normative ideal can be an illusion that makes some people miserable.
    Something I've come to realise when any form of representation in fiction is talked about, is that there are two goals that can be striven for, and people aren't always clear about which one they're aiming for.

    One is where being in X demographic simply isn't a problem. I still get to play "someone like me", but the setting is such that it doesn't have any negative impact. The other goal is to have those issues come up, and be dealt with by the characters in a way that makes their life harder but which feels rewarding when they defy the odds. Either ignoring or overcoming the petty annoyances that come with being in certain demographics in out world.

    But the thing is that similar issues (like racism and sexism) are human constructs and it's much easier to say "they don't exist in this setting, except maybe from obvious bad guys who you can Scorching Ray in the face". With disabilities, it gets a bit muddier.

  26. - Top - End - #176
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    Default Re: Combat wheelchairs

    Quote Originally Posted by WaroftheCrans View Post
    I have no problem with wheelchair bound characters in D&D, but this is just not the way to do it.

    Edit: Oh right, merely by owning this chair you have become proficient with tinker's tools. I wonder, if you sell the chair do you lose the proficiency?
    Heh, I missed that on the first read through, but once I had one of these uber items, why would I, as a PC, sell it?
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  27. - Top - End - #177
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    Default Re: Combat wheelchairs

    Seems everyone should get a wheelchair. Including beholders. And giants. And those ocra things with wings.

    Orcs with aggressive plus plows? Kobolds hitting twice as hard? Everyone has spider walking? That would make D&D so much better. And we'd all feel better about ourselves not being abelist.

    Why not take this to it's conclusion? Make everyone use a wheelchair, and call those who use their legs disabled?

    Then rewrite every optimization guide to include wheelchairs. Anything less would be sub-optimized!


    Beware of zealots, for they are often boring.

  28. - Top - End - #178
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    Default Re: Combat wheelchairs

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Heh, I missed that on the first read through, but once I had one of these uber items, why would I, as a PC, sell it?
    Because they are proposing to sell you a belt of magnificence(make all your stats be 30 since you are already playing with broken homebrew) in exchange for the chair because they need it for someone which is actually handicapped.
    Last edited by noob; 2021-01-21 at 10:34 AM.

  29. - Top - End - #179
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    Default Re: Combat wheelchairs

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Kurageous View Post
    Seems everyone should get a wheelchair. Including beholders. And giants. And those ocra things with wings.

    Orcs with aggressive plus plows? Kobolds hitting twice as hard? Everyone has spider walking? That would make D&D so much better. And we'd all feel better about ourselves not being abelist.

    Why not take this to it's conclusion? Make everyone use a wheelchair, and call those who use their legs disabled?

    Then rewrite every optimization guide to include wheelchairs. Anything less would be sub-optimized!


    Beware of zealots, for they are often boring.
    What is the point you are making? Where is it directed at?

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    Default Re: Combat wheelchairs

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Because they are proposing to sell you a belt of magnificence(make all your stats be 30 since you are already playing with broken homebrew) in exchange for the chair because they need it for someone which is actually handicapped.
    2 points:

    1) Why stop at 30? Why not 100?

    2) The wheelchairs can be bought from any merchant, and so nobody will need your chair more than you. The villain probably threatened to kill your entire family if you didn't get rid of the chair.

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