Epic monster questions

[Biggus]

The Sirrush in the ELH (both one-headed and three-headed) has Jump +40, but in the SRD, they have +83 and +102 respectively. Based on their HD and Str score, if you assume maximum skill ranks you'd expect them to be +59 and +66 respectively, which is exactly what their Climb scores are. So it appears they've been given a +24 and +36 bonus respectively, but this isn't mentioned in their entry, or in the errata or ELH 3.5 update as far as I can see. Any idea what's going on here?

Also, the Hecatoncheires boulder throwing ability doesn't mention a range or range increment. Is there a default one? Would you treat it has having unlimited range (it is supposed to be CR57)? If no to both of those questions, what range would you give it?

[InvisibleBison]

The sirrushes receive a bonus to Jump from their high speed - a +4 bonus for every 10 feet of speed beyond 30 feet.

I don't think there is a default range for boulder throwing - giants can throw boulders to variable range. I'd set the hecatoncheires's range to 360 feet, twice the range of the longest range giant, as I think they should have a formidable but not unlimited range.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Also, the Hecatoncheires boulder throwing ability doesn't mention a range or range increment. Is there a default one? Would you treat it has having unlimited range (it is supposed to be CR57)? If no to both of those questions, what range would you give it?

Well, the range increment for thrown things not otherwise mentioned (see: improvised weapons) is 10', up to 5 range increments, so...

[Biggus]

The sirrushes receive a bonus to Jump from their high speed - a +4 bonus for every 10 feet of speed beyond 30 feet.

Ahh thank you, I'd totally forgotten about that rule.

I don't think there is a default range for boulder throwing - giants can throw boulders to variable range. I'd set the hecatoncheires's range to 360 feet, twice the range of the longest range giant, as I think they should have a formidable but not unlimited range.

Well, the range increment for thrown things not otherwise mentioned (see: improvised weapons) is 10', up to 5 range increments, so...

Hmmm, I guess by RAW a 10ft range increment is the default, it doesn't really feel right for a CR57 creature with Str 50 though. 360ft is more along the lines I was thinking.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Hmmm, I guess by RAW a 10ft range increment is the default, it doesn't really feel right for a CR57 creature with Str 50 though. 360ft is more along the lines I was thinking.

I'd just swap out their crappy feats for much better ones. That includes Distant Shot to make them have infinite range (out to line of sight, anyway).

Just exchange points in Cha for points in Dex (or just raise their Dex).

[danielxcutter]

I'd just swap out their crappy feats for much better ones. That includes Distant Shot to make them have infinite range (out to line of sight, anyway).

Just exchange points in Cha for points in Dex (or just raise their Dex).

You don’t even really need to do that, honestly. Swap Multidexterity(obsolete in 3.5e) for Brutal Throw; the extra to-hit chance you’d get would make up for the penalties from the range increments without really changing the base monster that much at all.

Honestly, I’m not sure why this thing has MWF feats in the first place, considering they have Superior Multiweapon Fighting. How did TWF work in 3.0e? I’ve noticed some of the old statblocks get weird because of that.

[ZamielVanWeber]

In 3.0 you need 2 feat, ambidexterity and two-weapon fighting to do what two-weapon fighting does in 3.5 but was otherwise unchanged IIRC.

[danielxcutter]

In 3.0 you need 2 feat, ambidexterity and two-weapon fighting to do what two-weapon fighting does in 3.5 but was otherwise unchanged IIRC.

Okay so... drop Ambidexterity for Brutal Throw, for starters then. Maybe drop an Epic Toughness for Improved Toughness as well.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You don’t even really need to do that, honestly. Swap Multidexterity(obsolete in 3.5e) for Brutal Throw; the extra to-hit chance you’d get would make up for the penalties from the range increments without really changing the base monster that much at all.

Honestly, I’m not sure why this thing has MWF feats in the first place, considering they have Superior Multiweapon Fighting. How did TWF work in 3.0e? I’ve noticed some of the old statblocks get weird because of that.

You'd still need a high Dex because Brutal Throw doesn't replace Dex for prereqs. Distant Shot requires a Dex of 25+, and Brutal Throw does not qualify for it.

[danielxcutter]

You'd still need a high Dex because Brutal Throw doesn't replace Dex for prereqs. Distant Shot requires a Dex of 25+, and Brutal Throw does not qualify for it.

No, I'm saying that it'd help a lot for counteracting the range increment penalties because their Strength is far higher than their Dexterity. There's a free feat slot from Ambidexterity anyways so might as well add that.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

No, I'm saying that it'd help a lot for counteracting the range increment penalties because their Strength is far higher than their Dexterity. There's a free feat slot from Ambidexterity anyways so might as well add that.

And how does that counteract the 10' range increment and 5x max range? 50' is kiiiiinda pitiful.

[danielxcutter]

And how does that counteract the 10' range increment and 5x max range? 50' is kiiiiinda pitiful.

As someone who's literally in a play-by-post game of 3.5e now, 50' is a lot farther than you'd think on a map.

Then again we're only 5th level so... Maybe give them Far Shot as well?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

As someone who's literally in a play-by-post game of 3.5e now, 50' is a lot farther than you'd think on a map.

Then again we're only 5th level so... Maybe give them Far Shot as well?

Ummm...

In this post you brought up Brutal Throw as if it were a counter to the minimal 50' range. It's not.

[danielxcutter]

Ummm...

In this post you brought up Brutal Throw as if it were a counter to the minimal 50' range. It's not.

I meant that it'd help mitigate it, not counter it. As I said, 50' is a lot farther than it sounds on paper.

[RNightstalker]

The Sirrush in the ELH (both one-headed and three-headed) has Jump +40, but in the SRD, they have +83 and +102 respectively. Based on their HD and Str score, if you assume maximum skill ranks you'd expect them to be +59 and +66 respectively, which is exactly what their Climb scores are. So it appears they've been given a +24 and +36 bonus respectively, but this isn't mentioned in their entry, or in the errata or ELH 3.5 update as far as I can see. Any idea what's going on here?

Also, the Hecatoncheires boulder throwing ability doesn't mention a range or range increment. Is there a default one? Would you treat it has having unlimited range (it is supposed to be CR57)? If no to both of those questions, what range would you give it?

The ELH left so much to be desired. I don't know how WotC didn't readdress it in 3.5 except in bits and pieces here and there. There are even errors in the errata. One of the biggest defenses epic monsters had was their DR, which was pathetically simplified and royally hamstrung in the "update". I highly doubt due diligence was done for playtesting the original material or 3.5 updates.

I've also made a post or to about the Hecatoncheires myself so you questions and concerns are shared here. When I DM again I definitely intend to house-rule the DR system back to 3.0, at least for monsters/NPCs.

[Biggus]

The ELH left so much to be desired. I don't know how WotC didn't readdress it in 3.5 except in bits and pieces here and there.

Yeah, I'm currently going through the ELH monsters trying to make them a bit more, well, epic, which is how I came to ask these questions.

There are even errors in the errata.

Gah, really? What are those?

One of the biggest defenses epic monsters had was their DR, which was pathetically simplified and royally hamstrung in the "update". I highly doubt due diligence was done for playtesting the original material or 3.5 updates.

I've also made a post or to about the Hecatoncheires myself so you questions and concerns are shared here. When I DM again I definitely intend to house-rule the DR system back to 3.0, at least for monsters/NPCs.

With DR it depends how much your players are optimizers. Against a reasonably high-OP group 3.5 DR might as well not be there, but against a low-OP group 3.0 DR means that some characters can't hurt them at all. Our group is what I'd probably call the lower end of mid-OP, so the 3.5 DR is about right, with a few exceptions (the Hecatoncheires being one of them; DR20 against a 57th-level party, really?).

[danielxcutter]

Also is it just me or is it really hard to penetrate epic DR at early epic levels? Epic weapons are insanely expensive.

[Doctor Despair]

Also is it just me or is it really hard to penetrate epic DR at early epic levels? Epic weapons are insanely expensive.

You can always use Bane to artificially inflate it to +6 pre-epic, I suppose, or have a friendly Fiend of Possession buff your weapon.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Neither metaphysical claw nor metaphysical weapon have upper limits on the enhancement bonuses one can bestow. It's quite easy to get a +6 or greater well before level 21, what with all the ML boosters and power point cost reducers available. So either get a psychic warrior or ardent in the group (or a psion or wilder with access to it) and have him manifest it with a ton of pp. Even better if he has access to the soul crystal power so he can make everyone in the group one during downtime to use every day.

Or abuse the acorn of far travel and (un)hallow spells:

Find or plant an oak tree somewhere, preferably on a plane that is timeless with regards to magic. Cast a Sculpted (un)hallow spell so that it affects some of the tree's canopy. Tie the acorn of far travel spell to it. Now all the acorns in the AoE are affected by the spell, so you can give acorns out to whomever you like. (You can only have one AoFT spell in effect at once; this doesn't preclude you from affecting multiple acorns with the same spell.) Now use Sculpt Spell to make a bunch of line-shaped (un)hallow spells pointing straight up. Now each of these (un)hallow spells has a different spell attached to it, such as haste, polymorph, magic circle against evil, death ward, etc. Now you count as being under the tree's canopy while you hold the acorn, and all these spells are in effect under the tree. If you want more than one at a time, just make sure you occupy more than one 5' space, and make sure good spell combos are all next to each other below the tree's canopy.

Tie one (un)hallow effect to greater magic weapon and another to a spell that gives the bane property. I know I've seen one, although I don't recall which one, off the top of my head.

You could also make a +1 morphing/sizing raptor arrow and cast greater magic weapon on it, then wield it as a melee weapon.

[danielxcutter]

Umm, could be wrong but I don’t remember if the GMW equivalent powers can be manifested on other people’s weapons. And not all parties have a manifester.

Still, should work! And I guess the Mountain Hammer line would be an option too.

It’s not too hard for a mid-op party to deal acceptable damage through the DR even without bypassing it, right? Much less of course, but not “barely scratching the thing” levels either.

[Biggus]

Tie one (un)hallow effect to greater magic weapon and another to a spell that gives the bane property. I know I've seen one, although I don't recall which one, off the top of my head.

There are three: Bladebane (UE, terrible: costs 500GP per casting, only lasts 1 round/level, and only applies to slashing weapons), Undead Bane Weapon (SpC, much better but only works on undead) and Bane Weapon (Dragon #279 p.47, applies to all weapon types and creature types, but obviously requires a DM who allows Dragon content).

[danielxcutter]

There are three: Bladebane (UE, terrible: costs 500GP per casting, only lasts 1 round/level, and only applies to slashing weapons), Undead Bane Weapon (SpC, much better but only works on undead) and Bane Weapon (Dragon #279 p.47, applies to all weapon types and creature types, but obviously requires a DM who allows Dragon content).

Doesn’t (Un)Hallow only allow certain spells?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Doesn’t (Un)Hallow only allow certain spells?

It "includes" those spells but doesn't exclude others. And let's face it, if only those spells were usable, that function of (un)hallow would basically be useless, because the indicated selection is pretty terrible.

[danielxcutter]

It "includes" those spells but doesn't exclude others. And let's face it, if only those spells were usable, that function of (un)hallow would basically be useless, because the indicated selection is pretty terrible.

I mean, the included spell list has Death Ward, Freedom of Movement, and Resist Energy. I wouldn't call that useless.

[Melcar]

The sirrushes receive a bonus to Jump from their high speed - a +4 bonus for every 10 feet of speed beyond 30 feet.

Does this bonus apply to everyone?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Does this bonus apply to everyone?

Yep. ------------------

Your Jump check is modified by your speed. If your speed is 30 feet then no modifier based on speed applies to the check. If your speed is less than 30 feet, you take a -6 penalty for every 10 feet of speed less than 30 feet. If your speed is greater than 30 feet, you gain a +4 bonus for every 10 feet beyond 30 feet.

[RNightstalker]

Gah, really? What are those?

In the update, it was simple as formatting errors for starters, things not in the right columns that made it hard to follow. Also, just checking the original again, it only has TWO epic feats...

Also is it just me or is it really hard to penetrate epic DR at early epic levels? Epic weapons are insanely expensive.

I think it worked out well that way. To think that you wouldn't need to upgrade your weapons past a certain point is kind of silly, but so is the game. Think about how much more you'd have to pump into an epic weapon to defeat the +12's, let alone have the extra abilities that aren't free either.

Umm, could be wrong but I don’t remember if the GMW equivalent powers can be manifested on other people’s weapons. And not all parties have a manifester.

Still, should work! And I guess the Mountain Hammer line would be an option too.

It’s not too hard for a mid-op party to deal acceptable damage through the DR even without bypassing it, right? Much less of course, but not “barely scratching the thing” levels either.

GMW can be transferred to others via a chain spell metamagic rod IIRC.

[danielxcutter]

I think it worked out well that way. To think that you wouldn't need to upgrade your weapons past a certain point is kind of silly, but so is the game. Think about how much more you'd have to pump into an epic weapon to defeat the +12's, let alone have the extra abilities that aren't free either.

So what, you're saying that epic DR basically being "lol nope" at first is a good thing?

GMW can be transferred to others via a chain spell metamagic rod IIRC.

Clearly you didn't read the relevant post correctly; I said GMW equivalent powers. As in, Metaphysical Claw and Metaphysical Weapon, and Call Weaponry as well I guess.

[RNightstalker]

So what, you're saying that epic DR basically being "lol nope" at first is a good thing?



Clearly you didn't read the relevant post correctly; I said GMW equivalent powers. As in, Metaphysical Claw and Metaphysical Weapon, and Call Weaponry as well I guess.

At first, yes. I'm ok with having to work a little bit to start taking down higher challenges instead of rinsing and repeating because now that a PC is 21st level, everything in the epic realms should be available. It's ok to not be able to afford a +12 weapon at 21st level. At minimum by WBL, it would be 23, and that leaves very little for other stuff.

As far as the gmw equivalent thing, please forgive me for missing that.

[danielxcutter]

At first, yes. I'm ok with having to work a little bit to start taking down higher challenges instead of rinsing and repeating because now that a PC is 21st level, everything in the epic realms should be available. It's ok to not be able to afford a +12 weapon at 21st level. At minimum by WBL, it would be 23, and that leaves very little for other stuff.

As far as the gmw equivalent thing, please forgive me for missing that.

Martials have almost nothing to do but hit things harder at epic levels while casters have already been breaking reality for the past dozen levels or so. Making them even more underwhelming hardly sounds good.