Best Damaging Controller

[Frogreaver]

Goal is to have a controller that starts the combat by casting a control spell. The following rounds will be used to deal as much damage as possible. What are the best builds for this? Let's say I want this up and running by level 11.

Initial thoughts were pure Warlock and EB spam. But is there something better? Maybe warlock /rogue? Or even Warlock / Bard?

[kingcheesepants]

Wall of Force is (generally speaking) the best control spell available at level 11 and is only on the wizard spell list. Other good control spells include the other wall spells (fire, ice, wind), bigsby's hand, hypnotic pattern, tasha's hideous laughter, hold monster, and mirage arcane. Considering that all of these are wizard spells and several of them are wizard only, and when you factor in arcane recovery and wizard subclass features that can further the potential of these spells, I think it's fair to say that wizards are the best controllers by a pretty big margin. I'd say if you want to deal more damage go for an evoker as it gives you sculpt spells and some bonus damage. You can also take a level in Warlock to make a Hexvoker and add some more damage to your spells (Magic Missile is a standout here but your mileage will vary according to your DM). If for some reason you really don't like wizards than I'd go with bard that way you can use some magical secrets to pick up wall of force and a few other standout spells.

[Ir0ns0ul]

Yeah, I cannot think a most effective build than the Nuclear Wizard (Hexvoker).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'll agree that Warlock is the way to go. Fathomless in Tasha's gets Sleet Storm, Bigby's Hand, and Evard's Black Tentacles, all respectable control spells. Plus it's up and running as early as 5th level.

[Frogreaver]

Wall of Force is (generally speaking) the best control spell available at level 11 and is only on the wizard spell list. Other good control spells include the other wall spells (fire, ice, wind), bigsby's hand, hypnotic pattern, tasha's hideous laughter, hold monster, and mirage arcane. Considering that all of these are wizard spells and several of them are wizard only, and when you factor in arcane recovery and wizard subclass features that can further the potential of these spells, I think it's fair to say that wizards are the best controllers by a pretty big margin. I'd say if you want to deal more damage go for an evoker as it gives you sculpt spells and some bonus damage. You can also take a level in Warlock to make a Hexvoker and add some more damage to your spells (Magic Missile is a standout here but your mileage will vary according to your DM). If for some reason you really don't like wizards than I'd go with bard that way you can use some magical secrets to pick up wall of force and a few other standout spells.

Keep in mind I didn't ask for the best control spells. I asked for the best way to get damage on a class that can cast solid control spells - not necessarily the best control spells. I really think you are considering wall of force to much of a must have spell.

I don't see the hexvoker doing particularly well for this even assuming the "liberal interpretation" that allows it to work. You'll need 6ish slots of control spells (mostly level 3+ spells). Which leaves level 1 and 2 slots for damage and defense and utility through most of the game. You'll be spreading yourself pretty thin through most of the game if you are trying to stick to the tactic I outlined in the OP.

I don't see bard getting very much damage ever.

[Frogreaver]

I'll agree that Warlock is the way to go. Fathomless in Tasha's gets Sleet Storm, Bigby's Hand, and Evard's Black Tentacles, all respectable control spells. Plus it's up and running as early as 5th level.

Dragon Sorcerer 6 isn't far behind in tier 2 - and can use sorcery points and trade slots in to get enough level 3+ slots, but won't scale damage as well into tier 3. Maybe disintegrate is enough in tier 3 to keep the damage up? Well, I guess there is also quicken and damage rerolls once I get enough slots/sorcery points.

I'm wondering if multiclassing warlock after level 5 would be better than going straight warlock. Being a hexblade with a bow and going for fighter or rogue might be promising.

[MrStabby]

I would throw in Conquest paladin.

Damage from a paladin is great anyway.

At lower levels you have channel divinity for a really good control effect and from level 9 you have fear.

Between these two you should have an area of effect control spell (or spell like ability) for most combats.

Add on to this other nice control effects like wrathful smite and you have a good control character.

You can beef up the control further with things like shield master to shove peopme around.

[Frogreaver]

I would throw in Conquest paladin.

Damage from a paladin is great anyway.

At lower levels you have channel divinity for a really good control effect and from level 9 you have fear.

Between these two you should have an area of effect control spell (or spell like ability) for most combats.

Add on to this other nice control effects like wrathful smite and you have a good control character.

You can beef up the control further with things like shield master to shove peopme around.

Yea. I like the control there. Not sure about the damage though if I’m boosting charisma. Seems like I have to sacrifice a lot to maximize control and damage or go hex blade dip which delays damage bumps.

[Nhym]

Shepherd Druid. Druids have so much control anyway but Shepherd's summons get a lot of great control options like summoning beefy Constrictor Snakes to mass-restrain while you also have the option of out-putting tons of damage through sheer action economy.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

[Frogreaver]

Shepherd Druid. Druids have so much control anyway but Shepherd's summons get a lot of great control options like summoning beefy Constrictor Snakes to mass-restrain while you also have the option of out-putting tons of damage through sheer action economy.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

I had no considered constrictor snakes. I’ll be taking a look at that to see their potential.

That said DM is free to pick the summons instead of me, both by my reading and his. Suggestions are accounted for typically but not always, which leads to this strategy being a little more inconsistent than I like.

Also the strategy feels a little more like damage or control but not both at the same time?

[bendking]

I'm surprised no one mentioned basically any Sorcerer with Careful Spell. Careful Hypnotic Pattern, Sickening Radiance, etc. And the Clockwork Soul even gets access to Wall of Force.

[stoutstien]

i think any full caster can fit the bill of best depending on what the encounter in question looks like. controlling and taking out 50 orcs is going to look a lot different than controlling and taking out 5 fire giants.

if i had to pick one class that is going to pull it off regardless, i would vote some sort of druid. they have most of the big CC spells for groups and can stack on hurt with aoe blasts. star druid would be up there.

[Hammir]

HexBard would do well here. Go archer build with SS feat for great single target damage and you have magical secrets to pick up whatever control and heavy AoE damage spell you need.

[Ashrym]

Goal is to have a controller that starts the combat by casting a control spell. The following rounds will be used to deal as much damage as possible. What are the best builds for this? Let's say I want this up and running by level 11.

Initial thoughts were pure Warlock and EB spam. But is there something better? Maybe warlock /rogue? Or even Warlock / Bard?

EB spam with repelling blast and grasp of Hadar adds a lot of pushing and pulling with EB if you like that type of control.

By 9th level both of those, agonizing, and two more invocations are available. Hypnotic pattern is easily available, with a few backup options. Misty visions can be useful for control.

I prefer the sorc with twin and quicken for nova ability for faster output. Adding a more metamagic with a feat made that better.

Bards have great control options but direct damage sucks in comparison. Enabling opportunity attacks can be decent.

Druids have solid control and damage but I would still go warlock, sorcerer, or wizard.

Paladins and rangers have some control and damage options (especially paladins) that I can appreciate but the slower spell progression would be my concern.

I'm more inclined to multi-class and lower progression rate caster on the style if I start at higher levels to skip the growing pains. Ii don't like delays while leveling.

I think wizards (evokers) are the most well-rounded for control and damage. The spell list is great, the damage options are decent even if behind warlock EB's or metamagic spam because pact magic is still throttled and sorcerer spells known is still restrictive.

IME.

[Frogreaver]

So I’ve eliminated multiclass warlock. Hypnotic pattern being the only good control option I have doesn’t feel good.

Outside restrain snakes I don’t get what control options the Druid really has? See unless I’m missing drastic he’s on his way out.

That leaves single class warlock, likely hex blade. Unsure if EB or archery route is better for this.

That also leaves sorcerer. I’m leaning toward dragon with quicken and empower. Twin and heighten could be alternatives. Clockwork sounds interesting though.

Unless someone can convince me evoked damage is enough without liberal magic missile damage ruling I’m not seeing him work for this either.

[Ir0ns0ul]

Unless someone can convince me evoked damage is enough without liberal magic missile damage ruling I’m not seeing him work for this either.

This thread can definitely help — nothing related with Overchannel abuse, but smart ways to shape the battlefield with clever sculpted spells and etc.

[J.C.]

Do you think you have something?

[Valmark]

Outside restrain snakes I don’t get what control options the Druid really has? See unless I’m missing drastic he’s on his way out.

I mean... Almost all of the druids' AoEs that I can think of limit the targets' movements to some degree and many of them also deal damage. I don't see how's that not a Damaging Controller.

An example is the Maeostrom spell- continual damage, difficult terrain and when you fail the save you are pulled back towards the center.

Another example would be Tidal Wave- damage and Proning. Not only that but it can be used on aerial targets, making them fall and potentially take a lot of damage.

[kazaryu]

Goal is to have a controller that starts the combat by casting a control spell. The following rounds will be used to deal as much damage as possible. What are the best builds for this? Let's say I want this up and running by level 11.

Initial thoughts were pure Warlock and EB spam. But is there something better? Maybe warlock /rogue? Or even Warlock / Bard?

important question.
there are 2 general types of 'control' people talk about in dnd. crowd control and area denial. crowd control tends **** around with enemy action economy (i.e. hypnotic pattern, hold person) while area denial does what it says on teh tin. denies areas. typically by punishing people for entering that area. although in some cases (wall of force/stone) it can out right prevent people from entering the area.

With this in mind, which of these types of control are you looking for? are you ok with either?

Druids are actually almost exclusively control (at least, with respect to their offensive options), its dealing direct damage that they tend to struggle with, at least as far as spells go.
at level one you have entangle (also doubles as an area denial spell) and earth tremor (once again, also doubles as an area denial spell).
level 2 gives heat metal and , hold person for CC and moonbeam, flaming sphere and spike growth for area denial. important to note with flaming sphere is that its area denial that can be moved around once cast, and also used to deal direct damage.
lvl 3 you get plant growth which can be used as both CC and AD even with the same casting. dropping it in an area where enemies already exists severely limits their movement (1/4 speed). and a couple of wall spells.

whereas sorcerers get some nifty tricks they can do at higher levels, for example quicken casting whirlwind then using your action to sweep the battlefield all in the same turn (although that is out of your range of lvl 11. im just pointing it out so you can get an idea of the type of fun stuff sorcerers can get up to with metamagic. OR if you're more into CC you can heighten a spell to give the big bad disadvantage to save. making you much more likely to force a legendary save out of them. alternatively you can heighten some CC to ensure that you actually control the enemy mage/cleric at a key moment.

overall wizards almost certainly have the most varied control spell list (both CC and AD) but lack the metamagic that can make a sorcerer controller so effective

clerics likely have the least control. sanctuary is a pseudo control spell..but is expensive early. spirit guardians is probably their most ubiquitous one. but its fairly weak area denial and probably wouldn't suffice for the purposes you have in mind.

i won't bother going over warlocks since thats already the once you're considering.

lemme know if you're more interested in area denial or CC and i'll see if i can make any useful suggestions.

[Frogreaver]

important question.
there are 2 general types of 'control' people talk about in dnd. crowd control and area denial. crowd control tends **** around with enemy action economy (i.e. hypnotic pattern, hold person) while area denial does what it says on teh tin. denies areas. typically by punishing people for entering that area. although in some cases (wall of force/stone) it can out right prevent people from entering the area.

With this in mind, which of these types of control are you looking for? are you ok with either?

Powerful Control. Not the here's an area of difficult terrain type - as enemies will just walk out of it the next turn, or worst case the turn after. Not the prone enemy type - as an enemy will just stand up the next turn. I would consider restrain to be about the minimum threshold for powerful control. That's not to say something that prones or creates difficult terrain couldn't be a great control spell in the future if coupled with some other control effect, but on their own those effects aren't enough.

*The Maelstrom spell almost got there - but it's a 5th level spell and most enemies it will effect 1 round.

Druids are actually almost exclusively control (at least, with respect to their offensive options), its dealing direct damage that they tend to struggle with, at least as far as spells go.

I view them the opposite. The conjure animals spells are some of the best damaging spells out there.

at level one you have entangle (also doubles as an area denial spell)

Entangle is the one control spell from the Druid I like, but it's AOE is to small and at the end of the day is weaker in effect than most of the wizard/sorc/bard control spells.

and earth tremor (once again, also doubles as an area denial spell).

I like Earth Tremor alot. But in terms of control it's fairly week in comparison to spells like entangle. It's saving grace is that it's level 1.

l

evel 2 gives heat metal and

Heat metal isn't control IMO

, hold person for CC

Hold Person fits the bill, but its only affecting humanoids makes it something to supplement your control arsenal with and not rely on

and moonbeam, flaming sphere and spike growth for area denial

None of those are control IMO.

lvl 3 you get plant growth which can be used as both CC and AD even with the same casting.

It's a spell that is an excellent option for the limited control niche it applies to. Alot like hold person. If the Druid got a few control spells that were generally strong those would be enough to round him out and make him a contender. But he doesn't. Does make me really want this spell on a bard though ;)

[Nhym]

I had no considered constrictor snakes. I’ll be taking a look at that to see their potential.

That said DM is free to pick the summons instead of me, both by my reading and his. Suggestions are accounted for typically but not always, which leads to this strategy being a little more inconsistent than I like.

Also the strategy feels a little more like damage or control but not both at the same time?

Once creatures are summoned Druids have their whole turns free for whatever damage, control or healing they want while their summons act separately.
Also while Constrictor Snakes are generally the best option, anything you can summon are independent creatures with their own ability for actions and movement so pretty much everything can use the grapple action, they by default can act as passive control as a wall, obstacle or opportunity attack threat, and if your DM lets you summon something with control then they don't all have to do that so say half can attack while the others grapple or something. DM's do get final say on summons but you can still suggest summons and I've never had a DM deny me anything within reason.
Outside of constrictor snakes and anything grappling, you are underestimating how much control options Shepherd Druids have as well:
Blinded- CR ¼ Giant Frog. CR ¼ Smoke Mephit. CR ½ Dust Mephit. CR 1 Giant Toad. CR 1 Old Croaker.
Charmed- CR ½ Satyr Pipes. CR 1 Dryad.
Feared- CR ½ Satyr Pipes. CR 2 Meenlock. CR 2 Sea Hag. CR 4 Yeth Hound. CR 7 Bheur Hag.
Grapple- CR ⅛ Giant Crab. CR ¼ Constrictor Snake. CR ¼ Giant Frog. CR ½ Crocodile. CR 1 Giant Octopus. CR 1 Giant Toad. CR 1 Old Croaker. CR 2 Giant Constrictor Snake. CR 3 Giant Scorpion. CR 3 Water Weird. CR 5 Giant Crocodile. CR 5 Salamander. CR 5 Water Elemental. CR 6 Annis Hag. CR 7 Korred. CR 8 Tyrannosaurus Rex.
Incapacitated- CR 7 Bheur Hag.
Paralyzed- CR 2 Meenlock.
Poisoned- CR ¼ Sprite. CR ¼ Stench Kow.
Prone- CR ⅛ Boggle. CR ⅛ Mastiff. CR ¼ Boar. CR ¼ Elk. CR ¼ Panther. CR ¼ Wolf. CR ½ Giant Goat. CR ½ Giant Sea Horse. CR ½ Warhorse. CR 1 Deinonychus. CR 1 Dire Wolf. CR 1 Lion. CR 1 Tiger. CR 2 Allosaurus. CR 2 Auroch. CR 2 Giant Boar. CR 2 Giant Elk. CR 2 Rhinoceros. CR 2 Saber-Toothed Tiger. CR 3 Ankylosaurus. CR 3 Redcap. CR 4 Elephant. CR 5 Air Elemental. CR 5 Brontosaurus. CR 5 Giant Crocodile. CR 5 Triceratops. CR 6 Galeb Duhr. CR 6 Mammoth. CR 7 Earth Elemental Myrmidon.
Restrained- CR ⅛ Boggle. CR ¼ Constrictor Snake. CR ¼ Giant Frog. CR ¼ Mud Mephit. CR ½ Crocodile. CR 1 Giant Octopus. CR 1 Giant Spider. CR 1 Giant Toad. CR 2 Giant Constrictor Snake. CR 3 Water Weird. CR 5 Giant Crocodile. CR 5 Salamander. CR 5 Water Elemental. CR 7 Korred. CR 8 Tyrannosaurus Rex. CR 9 Conclave Dryad.
Strength Drain- CR ½ Reflection.
Stunned- CR 3 Flail Snail. CR 7 Air Elemental Myrmidon.
Unconscious- CR ½ Satyr Pipes.
(the grapple referred to is generally part of an attack as by raw, anything can grapple)

Also, this doesn't even account for the excellent control spells Druids have in general: Entangle, Fog Cloud, Plant Growth, Tidal Wave, Hallucinatory Terrain, Transmute Rock, etc....

There really isn't a lot Shepherd Druids or Druids in general can't do.

[stoutstien]

Druids can easily stack DT on top of one of the 1/4 movement speed effects and possibly even prone to lock down anyone who cannot teleport.

Transmute rock is a personal favorite follow up for spike growth. Move and eat a lot of damage or stay and possibly get restrainted

Can also spam transmute rock twice at later levels for massive lockdown depending on what AC the DM says the rock is. Concentration free mass restraining is always gold

[HPisBS]

To start, I'll venture off the beaten path and re-appropriate my Terminator build that I had customized for survivability.

Level 11 is when Artificers get Spell-Storing Item, which you can let your Tiny Servant use. That means you'd get to vicariously spam a 1st or 2nd level spell of your choice, while still using your actions to blast as normal.

Web and Enlarge/Reduce look like the best control spells on the base Artificer list for our specified level. So, you could open with Web for control, then have your Tiny Servant use Enlarge/Reduce as much as needed via your Spell-Storing Object. That would weaken whichever target you most want to keep restrained, giving it disadvantage on the Str checks to escape, and making any attacks it gets off deal a little less damage, too. Meanwhile, you and your party have at least one soft target to hammer.


Artillerist subclass gives you extra damage to spam on your bonus action (with Web, you'd want Force Ballista: 3d8 force by lvl 9), as well as Thunderwave to knock any enemies who manage to escape your Web back into its AoE (while also dealing +1d8 thanks to Arcane Firearm). If you don't want your Tiny Servant to Reduce one target at a time, this subclass would let it spam Shatter, instead. Also, it grants Fireball at lvl 9 and Wall of Fire at 13.


Armorer also lets you Thunderwave enemies back into your Webs, as well as spam Shatter. The main benefits to picking Armorer for this concept are that it'd grant Hypnotic Pattern and 2 extra Infusion slots.

Speaking of Infusions, you'd probably want Radiant Weapon to blind enemies with a reaction (with Armorer's special weapon), or Enhanced Arcane Focus (with Artillerist's Arcane Firearm), as well as Spell-Refueling Ring (to recover the 3rd lvl slot from Tiny Servant), Winged Boots, and maybe Pipes of Haunting. With Armorer's extra pair of Infusions, you might want Repulsion Shield to push enemies back into your Web with a reaction, alongside Mind Sharpener to help with concentration saves.

Edit:
It's also worth noting that Infusions need not be used by you. A Repulsion Shield would be best on a melee character who lacks a reliable reaction, while the Pipes of Haunting can be used by anyone, and don't even require attunement or concentration.

[HPisBS]

Shadow Sorcerer's Hound of Ill Omen imposing disadvantage against your spells (along with some extra damage and a chance to knock enemies prone) can really help you control / blast your primary target. If said spell is Sunbeam, then you get to spam a bunch of damage and blinded. Just be sure your Hound isn't in the line of fire.

Eyes of the Dark is always worth mentioning, too. Effectively blinding your enemies while you remain unaffected is always nice. Add in Careful spell and the rest of your party can enjoy your Darkness almost as much. Careful requires a save, so Darkness is ineligible.




Alternatively, a Bard with Telekinesis via Magical Secrets gives you simultaneous control and damage. Jack of All Trades applying to your contested checks helps ensure you get to hit a m______ with another m______. And/or just hold somebody in the air upside down while you hammer 'em the usual way. Either, or.

Zooming in, a Swords Bard with Spirit Guardians and/or Destructive Wave wading into an enemy group's midst spells a lot of hurt for them, while an Eloquence Bard gets a cheaper Heightened Spell to help ensure their control (or blast) actually lands, while also having better normal BI to buff party members with.

[Frogreaver]

To start, I'll venture off the beaten path and re-appropriate my Terminator build that I had customized for survivability.

Level 11 is when Artificers get Spell-Storing Item, which you can let your Tiny Servant use. That means you'd get to vicariously spam a 1st or 2nd level spell of your choice, while still using your actions to blast as normal.

Web and Enlarge/Reduce look like the best control spells on the base Artificer list for our specified level. So, you could open with Web for control, then have your Tiny Servant use Enlarge/Reduce as much as needed via your Spell-Storing Object. That would weaken whichever target you most want to keep restrained, giving it disadvantage on the Str checks to escape, and making any attacks it gets off deal a little less damage, too. Meanwhile, you and your party have at least one soft target to hammer.


Artillerist subclass gives you extra damage to spam on your bonus action (with Web, you'd want Force Ballista: 3d8 force by lvl 9), as well as Thunderwave to knock any enemies who manage to escape your Web back into its AoE (while also dealing +1d8 thanks to Arcane Firearm). If you don't want your Tiny Servant to Reduce one target at a time, this subclass would let it spam Shatter, instead. Also, it grants Fireball at lvl 9 and Wall of Fire at 13.


Armorer also lets you Thunderwave enemies back into your Webs, as well as spam Shatter. The main benefits to picking Armorer for this concept are that it'd grant Hypnotic Pattern and 2 extra Infusion slots.

Speaking of Infusions, you'd probably want Radiant Weapon to blind enemies with a reaction (with Armorer's special weapon), or Enhanced Arcane Focus (with Artillerist's Arcane Firearm), as well as Spell-Refueling Ring (to recover the 3rd lvl slot from Tiny Servant), Winged Boots, and maybe Pipes of Haunting. With Armorer's extra pair of Infusions, you might want Repulsion Shield to push enemies back into your Web with a reaction, alongside Mind Sharpener to help with concentration saves.

Edit:
It's also worth noting that Infusions need not be used by you. A Repulsion Shield would be best on a melee character who lacks a reliable reaction, while the Pipes of Haunting can be used by anyone, and don't even require attunement or concentration.

I hadn't considered artificer. I'll take a closer look as it sounds interesting.

[Sol0botmate]

1. Vuman 1 (Or Custom Lineage) Hexblade/19 Clockwork Sorcerer with Eldricht Adept: Agonizing Blast will provide great control with Carefull Hypnotic Patern. Fireball with new Metamagic option to change damage type (Thunder, Cold, Lightning etc.) pretty much covers all AOE blast till end of your career making you the most versitile blaster. Carefull Suggestion offers great control in and outside of combat. Twin Suggestion etc. also gives his great control. Wall of Force is one of best control spells in game. Carefull Counterspell controls enemy casters without being counterspelled yourself.

2. Wizards of course are great at control, especilly with WoF and Simulacrum. Later we have Force Cage.

3. 1 Hexblade/19 Lore Bard (with Eldricht Adept: AB on level 1) can provide very good DPR, great utility in and out of combat and good control with Wall of Force and Gibness + Lore Bard + Telekinesis combo for example. And later we still get Simulacrum and Force Cage.

4. Rune Knight can be awesome controller and deal very good damage if you build him right (You can check my Trunk Tunk build: https://forums.giantitp.com/showsing...&postcount=810)

5. Shepard Druid can make very good controller: his mass of summons can block enemies from moving and if he summons things like Giant Octopuses he can restrain multiple enemies. He can also summon flying creatures to make Grapple->Fly combo, removing enemies from battlefield. And many more.

That's just from top of my head.

[asradur]

It has been mentioned before but i want to go over it again
Conquest/hexblade

Go conquest paladin to 9 to get acces to the fear spell which in combination with the lvl 7 aura is a pretty nice combat opener and hinders enemies from sprinting into your squishy backline
For single target Wrathful smite is honestly amazing since it requires an action to roll against it
Hexblade warlock to 2 so you can ignore strength (needs to be 13 for multi) and focus on cha for spell saves, attack rolls and aura all in one
Get agonizing blast if you want to spam eldritch blast

While your control spell is going you can do the usual paladin thing and divine smite away or eldritch blast if you want to stay further away

Not saying that this is the most controlling build out there (since enemies immune to frightened exist) or the most damaging
But its one option to consider

[kazaryu]

Powerful Control. Not the here's an area of difficult terrain type - as enemies will just walk out of it the next turn, or worst case the turn after. Not the prone enemy type - as an enemy will just stand up the next turn. I would consider restrain to be about the minimum threshold for powerful control. That's not to say something that prones or creates difficult terrain couldn't be a great control spell in the future if coupled with some other control effect, but on their own those effects aren't enough.

Entangle is the one control spell from the Druid I like, but it's AOE is to small and at the end of the day is weaker in effect than most of the wizard/sorc/bard control spells.

I like Earth Tremor alot. But in terms of control it's fairly week in comparison to spells like entangle. It's saving grace is that it's level 1.

Hold Person fits the bill, but its only affecting humanoids makes it something to supplement your control arsenal with and not rely on



None of those are control IMO.

ok, so it looks liek you're interested in crowd control. fair enough (Area denial are also referred to as 'battlefield control. thats why i was asking. had just forgotten the 'control' term for them lol).

so lets talk about CC. For what im going to say im going to use the terms 'hard CC' and 'soft CC'. the definitions that im using for these terms are

hard cc: removes at least one part of an opponents action economy. for example: it prevents them from moving, or taking an action.
soft cc: hinders, but doesn't prevent any particular actions.

The problem with Hard CC is that its *really* powerful. Action economy is king in 5e, and hard CC actively removes it from one side of the battle. as such it tends to be rare, and limited, particularly in the early levels. Most AoE CC is soft CC (hence alot of spells that create difficult terrain). so i'd recomend getting comfortable with that idea. That being said, even at early levels there are options. but before we get into that....lets talk about class!.

as has been mentioned wizard has the most extensive spell list, and are the most adaptable. however, when it comes to landing and maintaining your CC (and lets face it, its not a whole lot of fun for enemies to pass your saves...which most hard CC relies on) you want sorcerer. for a couple reasons.
1. sorcerers natively get con save proficiency. what this means is that a v.human sorcerer can, at level 1, have a +5 to concentration checks with advantage. (4% chance of failing a dc10 con save) even without the advantage you're still looking at only a 20% chance of failure for most concentration checks (you needs to take 22 damage all at once in order to get a higher than dc10 save, and thats unlikely to occur at low levels) of course thats assuming a +3 con. more realistic numbers are +4 (6.525%/25%)
2. with metamagic a sorcerer can give a target disadvantage on their save.


lets talk about subclasses. Imo you wanna look at either shadow or divine soul.

shadow: level 1, you have a chance of not going down. which is great for keeping your concentration up. however, the big boon is level 6 where you can target an enemy and now they always have disadvantage against your spells (until they kill your hound). while also getting you some free damage on your side. fits the theme pretty perfectly IMO. shadow walk and umbral form are both great for keeping yourself alive, but obivously...thats too high of level to reasonably account for.

Divine soul: favored by the gods is always there, for when you *Really* need to not fail that concentration check. but i don't think its any surprise that the big reason you might wanna go DS is for access to the cleric spell list.

lets talk about spells! (keep in mind: just because i mention a spell doesn't mean i think its great or even good. while im picking some spells due to how good they are, im also looking at spells that have the potential to be underated).

lvl 1:
Bane: AoE soft CC. its based on a cha save which tends to be a weakness and averages a -2 to hit (or in other words a +2 AC buff) in fact, if you manage to get Bane on all enemies in the combat, this spell is very similar to getting shield of faith on every party member. (except its better because it also reduces enemies saves!). (divine soul only)

charm person: single target hard CC, prefight only. allows you to turn a potential combatant into a non-combatant. obviously only works on humanoids, and is somewhat niche beyond even that.

command: single target hard CC one turn only. command is one of 3 hard CC spells that sorcerers can have access to at level 1. its also the least limited in who it can effect. its not a charm effect, and as far as i know there isn't a creature in the game with 'immunity: command' the biggest limitations are 'no undead' and 'no commands that are directly harmful'. that second limitation is up to the DM. for example: some DM's may allows command: approach. which could force a target to provoke opportunity attacks. while others may call that directly harmful. However, at a bare minimum, if an enemy fails their save, they're going to lose their next turn. you can obviously get some additional mileage out of it beyond that. (divine soul only)

sleep: AoE hard CC. the other lvl 1 hard CC you can use. is based on HP, which means it won't scale well past lvl 4 probably (and even level 4 is pushing it) but for levels 1-2 its bonkers.

2nd:

blindness deafness: single target soft CC. potential to make a person blind for a few rounds. actually can be pretty good against casters, as they usually need to see in order to target spells. particularly the more nasty spells.

hold person: 'nuff said

web: AoE hard CC/area denial. potentially could use command to order an enemy into the web (if the people you summon it on top of manage to escape).

3rd:

bestow curse: single target hard CC. while certainly not the best 3rd level crowd control spell. one of its uses is to make a wisdom saving throw, or do nothing that turn every turn for a full minute. the tradeoff between this and hold person is that, while hold person is also a damage buff to your team, bestow curse doesn't end if they pass one of the saves. they still need to make another save next turn. (DS only)

fear: AoE hard CC. probably don't need to elaborate much. although, obviously being a fear effect, beward of creatures immune to fear.

hypnotic pattern: AoE hard CC. again...kinda speaks for itself. although since its a charm effect...you know the drill.

Slow: AoE hard CC. unsurprisingly, kinda the opposite of haste. multipurpose debuff. makes people easier to hit, reduces their mobility, increases ally mobility (no opportunity attacks from slowed enemies) and can potentially affect an entire battlefield.

stinking cloud: aoe hard CC. biggest weakness is that its a poison effect..second biggest is that its a con save. but if you got your enemies cornered this can make them sitting ducks.

hope this helps!

edit: removed some incorrect information from bestow curse, and cleaned up the language a bit.

[HPisBS]

...
lets talk about [sorcerer] subclasses. Imo you wanna look at either shadow or divine soul.

...

bestow curse: single target hard CC. while certainly not the best 3rd level crowd control spell. one of its uses is to make a wisdom saving throw, or do nothing that turn for an entire minute. once you get hound of ill omen, you could potentially use this spell to lock someone out of the fight. the tradeoff between this and hold person is that, while hold person is also a damage buff to your team, bestow curse doesn't end if they pass one of the saves. they still need to make another save next turn. (DS only)

I never thought of using Hound of Ill Omen to lock something down with Bestow Curse, that sounds awesome!

... Except Bestow Curse isn't native to the Sorcerer list. So, the only way to get it on a pure Shadow Sorcerer is to employ the cheese of Ravnica backgrounds and add it to your list as an Orzhov Representative.

If I ever get to play again and the dm is cool with Ravnica backgrounds, I just might try this.

[kazaryu]

I never thought of using Hound of Ill Omen to lock something down with Bestow Curse, that sounds awesome!

... Except Bestow Curse isn't native to the Sorcerer list. So, the only way to get it on a pure Shadow Sorcerer is to employ the cheese of Ravnica backgrounds and add it to your list as an Orzhov Representative.

If I ever get to play again and the dm is cool with Ravnica backgrounds, I just might try this.

oh ****, that was an oversight on my part lol. i even listed bestow curse as divine soul only. thats annoying.